I'm pulling this post from my other thread, because it didn't seem to be getting much attention, and I need all the feedback I can get right now. It's true, too. I'm feeling right now that saving our M after 12 years of lies and deceit isn't looking particularly attractive to me right now. I realize we have serious communication problems, and we're working on those (me, on my part of the problem), but how the hell can we move forward if my W can't even pinch off this relationship with Rat Meat once and for all?

SS: "Again, you have got to find a way to share your feelings with her in a safe way. The longer you keep it a secret, the worse it is for you, the harder it will be for her to understand. She will expect you would have been more honest with her. Right now, you can just say you wanted to wait until she had seen enough change in you to believe you were serious about loving her. Later it may not be so easy."

SC: "2L; how was it that you got your W not to go to that convention?
I was wondering if you might have a little chat with my wifey, and talk her out of her trip to FL next week...maybe since you have the experience now you can work a miracle! "

Well, I wish I could say that I had a magic bullet for you and your W's trip to Fla, SC, but the fact is I don't.

My W decided on her own that it would be a bad idea to see OM so soon. I thought that meant she gave a $hit about how I feel, and I guess she does, but not as much as I hope.

And SS, I did set my boundaries at our MC session this afternoon. That was the good part. The MC helped me get them out, clarify them, and had me repeat them from a couple of different angles so that there was no possibility of confusion. My W GOT IT this time. But, like I said that was the good news.

I left the session feeling pretty much done with this M, and in many ways, now that we've had some further conversation about it and I'm calmer, I still feel that way for the most part. But I'll hang in there for a few more months at least because it's fair to her and it's no sweat off my balls to keep plan Aing for a while longer:

Things discussed in session, in nutshell:
*I let my W start the discussion, so she talked about the recent development with OM's research proposal and my reaction to it. This sounded more negative coming from her than I felt at the time, and you KNOW just how gone I was that weekend! I was able to explain to her and MC just why I was so upset by that bombshell development.
*I explained to W and MC what I know about research proposals to small museums and how without naming my W on the proposal, there's little chance that she would get substantial funding (Hell, I'd write her a check out of my credit union line of credit bigger than anything he could cook up).
*So, my take is that OMW's H is trying to lure my W back into a R with him. W scoffed at the time, but later admitted that it looks that way to her too.
*W understandably didn't like me referring to OM as OMW"s H. When MC asked why I did that, I said "because I don't want anyone to forget that he's a M'd man with responsibilities." W groaned. I don't care (I really DON'T).
*W tried to explain to MC that I keep harping on this "elephant" and expect her to stop caring about OM. I explained to her later (and several times at previous MC sessions) that the reason for NC is NOT to get WS to stop caring about OP, it's to PROTECT everyone involved from the possibility of a reigniting of the A, specifically BECAUSE WS's can't be expected to STOP caring for the OP. I'm tired of restating the obvious.
*W restated that I "wasn't there for her" or "did nothing" when she came to me for "help" 12 years ago, telling me she was attracted to "someone else" (wouldn't tell me who). I'm tired of going over this one, too. I did what I thought was right at the time (which turned out to be wrong): I said "so long as there's no sex, it's not an A." Not long later, they started having sex. THIS POINT IS IMPORTANT: I had nothing to do with the A, I had no way to prevent it without a lot more information than I was given, and there was simply NO WAY THAT I COULD HAVE BEEN "THERE" FOR HER 100% WHILE THE DECEPTION CONTINUED. And it continues, albeit to a much more limited extent, right now! No, the A did not start because of unmet ENs, it started because of my W's weaknesses. It continued because of the lies and deceit, AND unmet and unmeetable ENs. I know you guys don't think I should dwell on the past, but I am at a point where it looks like I may have to analyze what happened ad nauseum ON MY OWN, if I'm ever to prevent something like that happening again in to my next relationship.
*W actually said that "My biggest mistake wasn't having the relationship with OMW's H, it was getting M'd in the first place and agreeing to have sex when I wasn't ready." That cut to the bone.

After all that was when the MC asked me about my boundaries with regard to OMW's H. I reiterated that I can't expect them to never see each other at conferences. That's a given. I also said that I can't make any demands on what she decides to do about OMW's H, either. I DID say that if she decides to resume a personal relationship with him, that I will not be willing to go through the pain of the past 6 months NOR the withdrawl of the past 12 years, and so I would have to call it quits if that's what she decides to do. The MC asked me "what about a strictly professional collaboration?" I pointed out that this is a small museum and they would have to be away from home together semi-regularly, and that I thought that was dangerous. Dangerous because OMW's H clearly wants to resume an A, and because my W is susceptible to having As with him, because she has twice in the past 12 years. Our MC agreed that my W would be "playing with fire" even if this were to be strictly a professional relationship. I pointed out, strongly, that I believe my W when she says she doesn't want to have another A, but that the temptation could eventually overcome her at some point down the line. My W seemed to acknowledge this, but didn't say much, just that she would need to decide what she wants to do with her life.

Our MC asked if we were going to attend the Couples' communication classes that were starting this week, and my W said that this week was just too busy and too soon for her. So it looks like September, unless they have classes starting sooner than that. MC then said that she thought we were rehashing too much about the A and that our problems were more appropriate to our IC sessions, so she recommended we stop MC sessions for a while. My W agreed. I didn't think it's a good idea, but gave in ultimately. Sheez. I honestly don't know if this is a good idea that "any MC" would recommend, or if this is a major red flag re Kaiser. I just don't have the experience to know.

After we got home, I was pretty much figuring we were done for, and we talked about what was said. At first, it all seemed to be pretty much a rehash of what was said, but then there were a few positive comments and observations made by both of us that gives me a couple ml of hope.

One was that we both recognize that it's still very easy for us to misunderstand what the other has said, even when it's repeated and so the words used are heard. We're going to make the effort to discuss these things more fully and try to understand what the other is perceiving is being said, as well as what each others' real meaning is.

The second was when my W brought up my boundary and we talked about it. She said that I had misunderstood OMW's H when he told her via email when he heard I knew, that he'd be willing to stop seeing her anymore. She says he actually said "if you want to make this work, I'd be willing to end this relationship" or words to that effect. She said "so, see, he's not your 'enemy' like you said weekend before last, he's actually a good person." I pointed out to her (again) that I don't hate him, but I certainly have no desire to ever find out just how wonderful a person he is. And then I pointed out that his subsequent "offer" to work with him again after he was tossed is a transparent effort to entice her back into an A with him. She agreed that it's probably what he wants. She also agreed that part of her would probably want it too, and so she's recognizing that this professional relationship probably would never work. She still hasn't decided what she'll do, though, and I realize that one of her choices is to DV and work with him anyway, if the offer comes. I told her that I'm willing to give her time to decide what she wants to do, but in the meantime, I don't want to talk anymore about buying houses (yep, ANOTHER one came up just this past weekend!) or replacing my tired van with a new one. NO BIG DECISIONS FOR NOW. She agrees, but feels pressured by her sister and her mom (who knows about A and is probably pushing to get us to do things to distract us from thoughts of DV). So, I plan to talk to her mom again about that (I did the last time a house purchase idea came up).

W still believes that she's given up all kinds of opportunities for her family (me, the kids, MIL) and now it's her turn. This is apparently what she's been working on most with her IC. Look, guys, I know I'm not the most selfless person in the world, and part of my W is pretty selfless (perhaps too much so), because she always has had a tendency to try to solve everyone's problems for them. But who's fault is it, then, when years later and nobody's fully aware of what's happened, she's become totally burned out on being selfless, and is in major Taker mode. It's ironic: at the same time she's always been so giving, she committed the most selfish, spiteful act imaginable within a M - she had 2 As. I'd gladly have traded the split day-night personality for a nice, gray area W for the past 12 years. But I didn't get to make that choice or even substantially influence the way she and I interacted AT ALL during all those years the deceit was going on.

I'm going to ask my IC to play hardball with me when I see him on Monday. What's wrong with me? I honestly don't know because we've flopped around the communication issue so much and seem to have to ignore the As completely, unless we "do the Cing wrong". At least that's the way I feel with Kaiser. I know that the As are a symptom, but right now, since this one has never been adequately shut down, it's a major problem in our M. One that MUST be dealt with in some way before we can address the real issues. Dammit!

At least I was able to clearly state my boundaries at the session. And our discussion this evening, particularly about OMW's H's desire to renew the A and her perhaps small, but very real potential susceptibility to it, really felt like a ton of weight was lifted off my back.

I feel quite a bit better, almost like I can really start to perform again at work for the first time in 6 months. But at the same time, I feel resigned to the very real possibility of DV. No plan B. I don't think it would work with my W (but I may be wrong, and I would welcome some good feedback on this). She still thinks all this MB stuff is bull$hit. So be it. It's saving my sanity, and it's probably saved my life a couple of times early on in the game. I won't let the value of it be trivialized.

My W doesn't take our M seriously. Or she'd like to convince herself of that, because she doesn't want to be owned or even "protected." So be it. F**k it. Screw it. It won't be long before I don't give a flying f**k anymore anyway. And when I'm calm again, I will consider making that next big decision - plan B or DV, whichever might work the best. Maybe filing will wake her up? If it doesn't, I may be content to let her sleep in this stinky, sticky fog by herself, defiant to the end! I won't stay in a loveless M.

Hi 2long. So sorry you are feeling so frustrated today. I know what you are feeling - like nothing you are doing is having an impact. However, I think it is.

You are really only 1 month into recovery, so you have a long way to go here. Vent all you want here, and listen to the thoughts and insights you receive in return. It helped me a lot. Sure, I'm on the other side of the fence then you, but I have spent a lot of time doing the very things that you BS from MB are doing.

The things to look at right now to help keep you going are the communication you accomplished after your session. You have acknowledged things like the fact that you misinterpret eachother, perceive things differently, etc. This is good, and something you can now keep in mind. It will help you to possibly see things from her view (and vice versa) and if that's not working you will be wise enough to inquire further into eachothers real thoughts and feelings on a topic.

You guys are talking and sharing. That is important and good. She is admitting truths here, like she would be tempted, and she will surely think about these things now too. I cannot predict what her ultimate decision will be, but to me it seems that things are starting to progress here. You are sharing, exploring, opening up and talking. Surely she will think about these things in an effort to decipher what is going on in her mind and what ultimately she will do.

Keep up the good work, and keep working on you my friend. You are doing well. It's hard to deal with, and I commend you for all your efforts and continued progress individually. Listen to my closing line: "Be true, stay strong, but remember it's ok to feel weak sometimes!" It is so true, and it has helped me, along with all the wonderful people here, through many rough roads. It is possible to productively get past all this, and I hope and pray for the best for you.

I hope this helps. Take care, and remember we are here for you.

2L, my friend, I have very little insight for you these days...as you know the turmoil I am going thru is great and I can't really offer the best of me right now.

I did want to say that I'm thinking of you and feeling for you, and I'm here for you if you need me. Even if I'm not currently at my best.

Perhaps we may end up sharing an apartment somewhere after all! How long has it been since your last keg party? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

tutter:

"Hi 2long. So sorry you are feeling so frustrated today. I know what you are feeling - like nothing you are doing is having an impact. However, I think it is."

I realize that it is, too. It's just that I also realize, almost daily now, just how much deeper this R with OMW's H was than I had previously thought. Each time I do that, it hurts all over again. And now that it's been 6 months since D-day and 8 since my W "thought" she had ended her latest A, I find that I have less and less hope that she'll come out of the fog in time for me to care anymore. I really am most concerned about that.

"You are really only 1 month into recovery, so you have a long way to go here."

I'll have to change my sig line again. We're not in recovery. I don't see it starting any time soon.

"The things to look at right now to help keep you going are the communication you accomplished after your session. You have acknowledged things like the fact that you misinterpret eachother, perceive things differently, etc. This is good, and something you can now keep in mind. It will help you to possibly see things from her view (and vice versa) and if that's not working you will be wise enough to inquire further into eachothers real thoughts and feelings on a topic.
You guys are talking and sharing. That is important and good. She is admitting truths here, like she would be tempted, and she will surely think about these things now too."

The communication "breakthrough" is really my only handle right now to save our M. I agree, it's a big step forward, but it's right there among a lot of very painful "truths" from my W about our M that I seriously wonder if we can ever overcome them and move forward, or IF we even SHOULD try to save this M. Maybe it really WAS a bad decision to get M'd in the first place.

"I cannot predict what her ultimate decision will be, but to me it seems that things are starting to progress here. You are sharing, exploring, opening up and talking. Surely she will think about these things in an effort to decipher what is going on in her mind and what ultimately she will do."

I can't predict what her decision will be, either (duh!), but the fact is that I'm axious about her making one, and soon. I haven't given any thought to how I'd do a plan B, basically feeling that she'd react spitefully and for far longer than a reasonable plan B - and so it wouldn't work anyway. But maybe I need to do that. I'll have to ask others on this forum if there are any that have had such complicated family/house situations as mine that have had to formulate a plan B under those circumstances, and how they did it (and how it worked out). I should probably do this, or at least draft a plan B letter, before my LB$ is completely empty - and I'm not sure it's not very close already.

"Keep up the good work, and keep working on you my friend. You are doing well. It's hard to deal with, and I commend you for all your efforts and continued progress individually. Listen to my closing line: "Be true, stay strong, but remember it's ok to feel weak sometimes!" It is so true, and it has helped me, along with all the wonderful people here, through many rough roads. It is possible to productively get past all this, and I hope and pray for the best for you.
I hope this helps. Take care, and remember we are here for you."

It does help. Very much.

At this point, I am just hoping that this current low in the rollercoaster ride will end and I can look at things more positively in a few days. This feels different from previous lows, though. I'm calmer and it's lasting longer.

SC:

"Perhaps we may end up sharing an apartment somewhere after all! How long has it been since your last keg party? "

2LONG! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

2long,

In complete honesty you have a very complicated situation.

I shudder to say this anywhere on MB forum; but I am close to someone who is in an A very similar to the one your WW was in with the OMW's H. So I have a somewhat uncomfortable "theatre seat" in a similar auditorium.

It's the long ongoing 12 year deception that became a way of life for your WW that makes this so difficult to deal with; and that's just a small part of it, in my opinion.

I honestly don't know why you don't make the investment to have just 1 phone counseling session (just you now WW) with Steve Harley for perspective from an expert.

I hate to say this but I truly believe that well over 50% of "traditional counseling" sessions I have had; were ineffective. It's an inexact area of ???? expertise in many cases.

My hope for you is that you give your M all that you can; which I believe you will...and when it comes time for you to make a major decision you will be able to make it with love and peace knowing you exhausted all of your choices!! CSue

2long...

I breezed through your post (I am at work... summer school w/ some really reluctant juniors... I am outta my comfort zone teaching high school... so I don't have time for a long reply.).

But I had to say... YOU SOUND LIKE ME LAST SUMMER.

Really. And the stuff your H is saying to you... sounds just like mine. Really.

"We should never have married." "I should never have had sex w/ you... we should have just been friends." "I never wanted children. I just accomodated your need for them."

And like you, I railed... lamented... vacillated between wanting to give up... and still having hope...

You absolutely DID NOT CAUSE YOUR WIFE'S AFFAIR.

However... you do contribute to the marriage environment and it is up to you to figure out what you need to change. I had big "AHA's" before d-day about my inappropriate anger, the tone of voice I used to talk w/ my H, my own unhappiness in our marriage.

From MB and other places, I discovered that I COULD NOT CHANGE MY H. I could only change me. I could change my reaction to him. I could continue to always (okay... almost always) treat him with love and kindness.

And, as my walk with God deepens, to strive to really WALK the WALK...

Tie a knot in your rope and hang on. Let go of your wife. Focus on what you do and say... not what she does and says.

(and read a bunch of my posts over the summer of last year and those in Jan, Feb & March)...

Hugs and prayers,
Cali

2Long,

I havent been at this as long as you but I will say that you seem to be holding up reasonably well, considering. since I am just a month into Plan A and trying to make things work here, I dont have muc advice, since I am a newbie. Will be praying for you though.

In His Arms.

Thanks, CSue.

While I did start seeing my IC again for the first time last week, that was before Kaiser's MC "dropped us" yesterday. I honestly am absolutely baffled as to why she thought that stopping our sessions together NOW is anything but a VERY BAD idea, when we're finally making SOME SMALL progress toward addressing the As and their impact on our M, as well as our communication problems.

My next IC is scheduled for Monday afternoon. If I had known about the developments with Kaiser when I planned to start seeing him again, I probably would have bitten the bullet and called the Harley's. Would it be appropriate to C with them WHILE Cing with my current IC?

I will go to the homepage and look up the details of how to do the phone Cing. It would certainly be easier for me if I could call from my office at work, but then there's billing to consider. Just don't know anything about it, is all.

Thanks again.

2long,

I can't imagine why the MC wasn't able to communicate why stopping the MC for the time was a good idea.

In my case H and I were in MC and we reached a point where I needed separate individual IC before we could proceed further. So H & I stopped MC while I did a few rounds of IC; then we picked up MC again.

I think reasons for IC are significantly different than MC and I can see where it would be helpful to work on personal issues in IC and marriage issues in MC or in SH's case PC.

When you call to setup appointment SH's staff will explain how the fees work. It's easiest to give them a CC # and then you call the 800# they give you. So there's no reason you couldn't do it from work or anywhere else.

Logistically if you W ever joins you; you'll just need to be in a place where one of you has access to the phone extension you are calling from because SH combines individual conversations; then talks and listens to both at the same time.

Hope this clarifies for you! CSue

Cali:

Thanks for the feedback. I will look up your story!

"However... you do contribute to the marriage environment and it is up to you to figure out what you need to change. I had big "AHA's" before d-day about my inappropriate anger, the tone of voice I used to talk w/ my H, my own unhappiness in our marriage. "

Yes, this is true. However, I didn't have ANY AHAs before D-day. Either my W was that good a liar, or I was that big a chump. I've never yelled at her in my life. All I did "wrong" so far as I can tell, was to clam up and withdraw. Now, at least, I know WHY I did that. It was a reaction to the negative signals I was getting from HER about M, about US, about ME and what I "contribute" to our family -all things that fed back on the whole cycle and made things get steadily worse with time. If I'd only found out after the first A, or OMW had told me when she found out, I could have done all this work I'm doing now, then!

I'll tie that knot and let go her hand.

2long,

Very insightful of you to see the "clam-up & withdraw", being your contribution to the state of your M.

That was my contribution as well. I have been searching for quite some time (2 months; but feels like an eternity) why the clam-up withdrawal.

Because my H's A was so long ago I have to reconstruct from 4+ years ago, and peel myself off the ceiling everytime I get a trigger when I realize something of any or no significance occurred approximately 4 years ago. Causes anxiety attacks in my & I don't have an anxiety problem normally!!

Anyway the clam-up and withdraw must have been and still is at times a coping strategy (not effective) for ??????

Problem with Rs is that it is hard to sort out what the symptoms are vs the core issue. I would like to keep digging until I can comfortably identify the core issue; then work my way back out to see what the coping strategies were that contributed to the problems in my M. My coping strategy being clam-up and withdrawal; and my H the A.

CSue

CSue:

I guess the hope here is that I can communicate my concerns about withdrawl to my W without LBing now. And I truly am concerned about them.

For example, the ILY issue. I have been saying ILY to my W, semi-regularly since D-day. She said it back, first time, not long after D-day, then a few times after that, and never since about a month or two ago. I can "feel" the withdrawl starting again, as a reaction to feeling like I'm putting my heart on my sleeve, and my fear, now, that my "chumpness" will be described to OMW's H next time they talk.

This is just one of the things that shows me that I'm starting to react and withdraw again when I feel hurt. The worst thing is that I'm getting to where I don't care if we can't work things out, maybe even want them NOT to work out - my LB$ is so low. The only thing that really keeps me going, sometimes, is that I will need to deal with this tendency of mine LONG before I withdraw from my next partner, if we wind up DVd.

Thanks for the pointers on the Harley Cing. I'll think about it.

CSue:

"In my case H and I were in MC and we reached a point where I needed separate individual IC before we could proceed further. So H & I stopped MC while I did a few rounds of IC; then we picked up MC again."

This is almost exactly why they felt we needed to take a break. But, MC with Kaiser is only $5 a visit, so for me it was worth the tiny progress steps to have these, in addition to our ICs.

Maybe I'm wrong and they're right. After all, we do have to work, still.

2long,

Yea, the "You take you with you wherever you go" concept!

It sounds like you are back to focusing on you; which is exactly what is best. I don't know the point of talking with W about the fact you are withdrawing again. Maybe not until after your next IC. To me withdrawal is all about safety. What is safe; since the opposite of withdrawal has proven unsafe. Sounds like a good survival skill on the surface. I wish I knew a better alternative.

But I think the alternative is communicating purposefully with someone who has proven they are safe to be communicated to/with. And I'm not sure your W is at this point especially about the withdrawal subject. CSue

Sometimes it helps to hear this from a WS. Although it's way more appreciated from your own WS, I am offering the following in hopes that it will help some how:

Your pain is real, and your feelings matter!

I can see your pain and I can all remember seeing and feeling the same in my DH. It's the lies and deceipt that I think hurt the most. Then coupled with the many years of it that you have to deal with make it all the more difficult.

Our MC mentioned once that there will come a time that I needed to sit down with my DH and let him tell me all in one scoop what he thought, felt, etc. about the A. Let him get it all out at one time. That I needed to do this and to listen and not get defensive. I did it. I was sympathtic and I expressed how I felt his pain.

Our MC also told me that I needed to be willing to answer his questions. I came to be able to do that too. It's hard to answer the questions we know will hurt all the more. It's no fun feeling the pain we can't take away. It is a must and it is doable.

What I am trying to eventually get at, is that the low you are on won't last forever. I know it feels like it, and know that we are here for you while you are there and need us to be. I have stumbled across several boulders in my road that I thought were unmovable - we found a way together.

Anything is possible, and as you may see several things that suggest it isn't, I'm sure you can find those that suggest it is. One thing I'd like to mention is that it's possible that the truths come in spurts because she's afraid of hurting you with more info. It may help if you explain that it will hurt, but that doesn't mean you don't want her to talk to you. All you ask is that she understand and maybe hold you when you hurt. It worked for me.

I hope this helps. I so feel for you and the turmoil you are experiencing right now. Share your pain with us and we will do all we can to help you through it. Take care my friend.

2Long,

I have been reading your posts and really have not had much to say or add. I think it is time you quit cycling on this problem. It seems to me it is clear or should be clear to you and your W that : three people in a marriage doesn't work. You for 11 years didn't know you were dealing with a third person but you were. Now you do, and now your W has admitted there is a third person.

It seems to me if she wants to stay married, that one of the two of you needs to be jestisoned. She needs to make up her mind. If she doesn't want to make the or "a" marriage work then a divorce is in order. It really is that clear. it will hurt your S, and it will hurt your D although she is out of the home and on her own. Your W has been a complete user for 11 years and it is going to stop one way or another. The idea that she has been the giver in the marriage is a joke. What she was doing is working very very hard to HIDE the affair. It wasn't two affairs in my book but one long PA-EA-PA-EA.

Life is simple 2long. She either gets the concept that three don't make a marriage or she doesn't. By the way your MC sounds like a real loser who is trying to pad the stats by closing out your counseling.

An uplifting post isn't?? I apologize. This whole thing just annoys me. Your W is an intelligent woman who has simply has no integrity. She won't face what she has done and admit the situation as it stands. I realize the Harley's approach is not to confront. The approach works because all of it Plan A, Plan b, buy time and time is what is needed. But, if you don't care and she doesn't care, then...

2L, now you know why I haven't been posting. I haven't had much positive to tell you or offer. I do hope the other posters can make up for my lack here.

God Bless,

JL

I think you may need to express this to her. Three in a marriage won't work. She was wrong and she is wrong. What is she going to do. I know her answer has been to

2long...

Each person is unique... as is their marriage. The AHAs I had in my marriage will be different from yours... even if the result or reaction from our S is similar...

I had a whole lotta learning to do to get where I am now. #1 was simply walking in Faith. I had to develop a stronger relationship w/ God... in doing so I am learning to let go of my bitterness and anger and be more loving... I am learning to control only ME and not others... (though I am struggling with these reluctant juniors today).

#2 was learning period. MB. Reading. Counseling. I have learned much about relationships, myself, and how the whole thing 'works.'

I remember so vividly feeling like I was banging my head against a wall wi/ my H and his 'words.' Then SnL or Lexxxy said some candid stuff to me and I had to take off my rose-colored glasses and get real.

IT WASN'T ABOUT MY H.

I had to make it about me. I had to look at what I could control and what I could change... and that was ONLY ME.

So I started there.

The ILY's became less frequent. (I use to say it so much that it had become meaningless... especially as I would say if after a tantrum... after a bout of screaming and yelling... along w/ an "I'm sorry.")

I* became less 'accessible.' Suddenly... I didn't answer my cell... I didn't call back right away... I didn't ask him where he was... why he was late... or what took him so long. I 'feigned' disinterest. But, then, I didn't tell him where I was all the time... or where I had been or why I was late... (it drove him absolutely NUTS, btw.)

He found some emails I printed from some MB folks... innocuous... suddenly... I knew people he didn't... and he didn't know from their username if they were men or women... he didn't ask, and I didn't tell... but he didn't like that I had a 'life' that he didn't know about... and that included me posting on MB, I was to later find out. I was forming relationships, for the first time since we were married, that were not about work... and he was not a part of...

So, 2long, my path will not be yours, but you will find it. You will learn that you and your wife cannot steer each other's boats down the river of marriage... you each have to steer your own and learn to communicate with each other about the obstacles ahead, the weather conditions and to enjoy the serene calm parts of the river... but it is YOUR boat that you must be most focus on so that it does not run aground or sink. (Schnarch's analogy enhanced by Cali)

Hugs,
Cali

tutter:

"Sometimes it helps to hear this from a WS. Although it's way more appreciated from your own WS, I am offering the following in hopes that it will help some how:
Your pain is real, and your feelings matter! "

It would help, particularly from my W! Actually, she does acknowledge that my LBs are due to my continued and lately renewed hurt. But since she can't decide to end her R with OMW's H NOW, it sounds hollow to me. It's like she's saying "Your pain is real, and your feelings matter, but not as much as my need to continue this R"

"I can see your pain and I can all remember seeing and feeling the same in my DH. It's the lies and deceipt that I think hurt the most."

Yes, it is. I've actually had very little of the "movie replays" in my head that are often talked about here. But that's because my W told me early on that they only had sex a "few times, maybe a half dozen or so." It's been easy to believe this because the 2nd A happened when OMW's H had moved to NM, so they only saw each other 3 times and had sex 1 1/2 times (not "all the way" the 2nd time) during the 2nd A. But, the 1st A started when they worked at the same place, and he lived in the area. I have this nagging feeling that she's not been completely honest with me and they had sex a LOT during the 1st A (she told me recently that she thought, at the time, that "maybe it was just the sex". How can that have been a big deal if they didn't have it a lot?). I may never know. But the result of this fear is that, recently, I have actually started having bad moments of SF with her when I pictured them together. I've been afraid to tell her THAT, because the good SF has been better than I ever thought it could be, and I don't want that to end.

"Then coupled with the many years of it that you have to deal with make it all the more difficult."

Very much so.

"Our MC mentioned once that there will come a time that I needed to sit down with my DH and let him tell me all in one scoop what he thought, felt, etc. about the A. Let him get it all out at one time. That I needed to do this and to listen and not get defensive."

Our MC and her IC don't seem to want us to dwell on the A at all, except for me stating my boundaries yesterday. I still can't understan this.

"I did it. I was sympathtic and I expressed how I felt his pain."

I truly wish my W would do this for me.

"Our MC also told me that I needed to be willing to answer his questions. I came to be able to do that too. It's hard to answer the questions we know will hurt all the more. It's no fun feeling the pain we can't take away. It is a must and it is doable."

Ours did this too, a while ago. When I tried, though, my W has gotten upset, even using the cliche "you're always going to throw the A up in my face" (why do they say that? I picture a BS barfing in the WS's face!). So I've clamed up and withdrawn the questions. I've got to stop that!

"What I am trying to eventually get at, is that the low you are on won't last forever. I know it feels like it, and know that we are here for you while you are there and need us to be. I have stumbled across several boulders in my road that I thought were unmovable - we found a way together."

This is very encouraging.

"Anything is possible, and as you may see several things that suggest it isn't, I'm sure you can find those that suggest it is. One thing I'd like to mention is that it's possible that the truths come in spurts because she's afraid of hurting you with more info."

She has said this. She used it as justification for her "measured honesty" and for lying to me when I first discovered their emails in January. I had to snoop a week later to get the truth out of her. But, like I've pointed out to some WSs on this forum, metering out the truth like that just exacerbates and perpetuates the mistrust. I do have to make her feel safe in telling me things, better than I have done in the past. I think I can, because I think I can truly detach to the extent that I won't worry so much that something I might say would drive her to OMW's H. She KNOWS what the consequences of that choice will be now. Not a threat, though.

"It may help if you explain that it will hurt, but that doesn't mean you don't want her to talk to you. All you ask is that she understand and maybe hold you when you hurt. It worked for me."

I do this to some extent, and she does offer to hold me when I'm upset. Interestingly, I've noticed the last few times that, when I hug her in the hallway or livingroom when I get home from work, she holds onto me longer than I would think she'd want to. I just wish she would tell me what she's thinking, and if she really loves me, then TELL ME. Sure, "actions speak louder than words", but wordless acts are very easy to misinterpret.

"I hope this helps. I so feel for you and the turmoil you are experiencing right now. Share your pain with us and we will do all we can to help you through it. Take care my friend."

I will!

JL:

I really do appreciate your feedback, and anxiously look forward to reading what you have to say. I have to run to lunch, but will check back and respond to your post.

I don't know what to say at this point, except that, all I know is that this situation is about ME, that it took 28 years for me to get HERE, and so I really have to think long and hard and with EXTREME CARE about whether to blow chunks and vent to my W about what's happening and how pi$$ed I am, or savor the tidbits of progress as they come and keep venting here. I honestly don't know whether I have the patience to do the latter, but I do know that I do have the family, and they deserve my thoughtful, considered reaction to developments (or the lack thereof) as they come in. Provided I can hold onto that rope.