"Our MC and her IC don't seem to want us to dwell on the A at all, except for me stating my boundaries yesterday. I still can't understan this."

It's actually not a matter of dwelling, it really helps to move forward and leave a lot of it behind. You see, when bits and pieces come out here and there you never feel like you are being fully heard. If you can sit down and just say here is what I felt, this is how it hurt, this is what I thought then, etc. For example, my DH told me how when I would go out and he knew in his gut I was going to be with an OM he would sit and watch family movies and look at wedding pictures and cry. He continued to tell me how he felt when all came out, and how he hurts at the moment. It truly helped us.

"Ours did this too, a while ago. When I tried, though, my W has gotten upset, even using the cliche "you're always going to throw the A up in my face" (why do they say that? I picture a BS barfing in the WS's face!). So I've clamed up and withdrawn the questions. I've got to stop that!"

It takes us awhile to see that you really need these answers to productively move forward. It feels like you are throwing in our face because that's actually what WE do with it. We hear you and throw it at ourselves with the "how could I do this to him", etc. We cannot possibly take away your pain by inflicting it with the answers to these questions.

"But, like I've pointed out to some WSs on this forum, metering out the truth like that just exacerbates and perpetuates the mistrust."

This is something we don't see for a long time. At first we are faced with finally acknolwedging the evil we have inside of us. Then we face the hurt in the heart and eyes of the one person who loves us more than anything, the one person we were always supposed to protect. Then we have to accept the fact that WE made these choices, WE caused their pain, but WE CANNOT make it go away. Now, you are asking us to knowingly again inflict more pain on you and it's hard to do. I found that my pain and hurt came from my DH's pain and hurt. It's not that we are really trying to deceive you at this point, but trying to help you work through it.

"I do this to some extent, and she does offer to hold me when I'm upset. Interestingly, I've noticed the last few times that, when I hug her in the hallway or livingroom when I get home from work, she holds onto me longer than I would think she'd want to. I just wish she would tell me what she's thinking, and if she really loves me, then TELL ME. Sure, "actions speak louder than words", but wordless acts are very easy to misinterpret."

FLASHING LIGHTS, SIRENS, MORE LIGHTS AND SIRENS!!!

My dear, this is good, real good. Her lingering hug is saying I love you. It's saying I am so sorry I've hurt you and I don't know how to put it in words. It's saying I don't want to lose you. It's saying don't leave. It's saying have faith in me. It's saying don't quit, don't give up. It's saying oh how I regret what I've done. It's saying I'm scared and lost, but I'm getting there. It's saying please continue to help me along.

You are doing a great job. Stay cautious, for sure, but don't miss the little things. I know you need the R to end and end now, and I hope and pray that is just around the corner for you. I once told my DH that I don't expect him to trust me, but that I need him to believe in me, just a little bit. He said ok, and boy did that help me to move to be able to help him.

My best to you. Take care.

Cali:

"I had a whole lotta learning to do to get where I am now. #1 was simply walking in Faith. I had to develop a stronger relationship w/ God... in doing so I am learning to let go of my bitterness and anger and be more loving... I am learning to control only ME and not others..."

I understand and appreciate this. I was raised a Christian Scientist, and my W a fundamentalist Christian, and we both are atheists now, but the principles of personal integrity and morality that I hold very dear to this day are very much grounded in my Christian upbringing.

"(though I am struggling with these reluctant juniors today)."

Ah, HIGH SCHOOLERS! I've taught geology labs for a local Junior College, and it's amazing how much like high schoolers these students can be. A bit less babysitting, but not much. I've also taught at the University level, and the difference, even with same-age kids, is amazing (probably because their folks are shelling out a LOT more for tuition!).

"#2 was learning period. MB. Reading. Counseling. I have learned much about relationships, myself, and how the whole thing 'works.'"

YOU BET! Me too.

"I remember so vividly feeling like I was banging my head against a wall wi/ my H and his 'words.' Then SnL or Lexxxy said some candid stuff to me and I had to take off my rose-colored glasses and get real.
IT WASN'T ABOUT MY H.
I had to make it about me. I had to look at what I could control and what I could change... and that was ONLY ME."

Yep. And I've had moments of lucidity when I KNOW this to be true, followed quickly thereafter by rather long periods of what I like to call "lucid senility" (sung to the tune of "Silent Lucidity"), where I just mope and whine (and vent!).

"So I started there.
The ILY's became less frequent. (I use to say it so much that it had become meaningless... especially as I would say if after a tantrum... after a bout of screaming and yelling... along w/ an "I'm sorry.")"

I do this, too, but not much. I hope, anyway. But I really worry that my own ILY's will drop off to zero and we'll continue NOT to communicate and be back where we started. I worry about this because, between 12 years ago and a few weeks after D-day, my W said ILY to me ONCE, caught me totally off guard, and I responded with something stupid like "gee, that's the first time you've said that in 8 years!" I probably said ILY occasionally after she stopped 12 years ago, but obviously trailed off to zero, because I can't remember when I last said it before D-day.

"I* became less 'accessible.' Suddenly... I didn't answer my cell... I didn't call back right away... I didn't ask him where he was... why he was late... or what took him so long. I 'feigned' disinterest. But, then, I didn't tell him where I was all the time... or where I had been or why I was late... (it drove him absolutely NUTS, btw.)"

I've done this a few times, and recently. I will walk away if I'm upset, to cool down. I will not answer my cell if I know it's her. I'll calm down on my own and come home on my own. I haven't "left" for any extended period of time (yet, at least), but every time I've done this she's been very passionate with me afterwards. I'm learning from this forum that this is not at all unusual behavior. It sure is strange, though.

"He found some emails I printed from some MB folks... innocuous... suddenly... I knew people he didn't... and he didn't know from their username if they were men or women... he didn't ask, and I didn't tell... but he didn't like that I had a 'life' that he didn't know about... and that included me posting on MB, I was to later find out. I was forming relationships, for the first time since we were married, that were not about work... and he was not a part of..."

I've told my W that I post to this forum, many times. She has no idea that I've posted almost 1500 times since Februrary, though. I wonder if I should tell her? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

"So, 2long, my path will not be yours, but you will find it. You will learn that you and your wife cannot steer each other's boats down the river of marriage... you each have to steer your own and learn to communicate with each other about the obstacles ahead, the weather conditions and to enjoy the serene calm parts of the river... but it is YOUR boat that you must be most focus on so that it does not run aground or sink. (Schnarch's analogy enhanced by Cali) "

You are absolutely right, Cali. I'm getting there, I believe. I'm starting to think positively about my future again (really since yesterday, in earnest), whatever that future holds (be it here or with a new job out of state). My boat holds me, my kids, and there's still room in it for my W, if she wants to ride along or hitch her boat up alongside...

tutter:

"It's actually not a matter of dwelling, it really helps to move forward and leave a lot of it behind."

I guess I believe it needs to be the #1 topic of problem-solving conversation in Cing, because it isn't OVER yet. Sure, she hasn't seen him 8 or 9 months, but she hasn't said "hey Rat Meat, It's OVER" either.

"You see, when bits and pieces come out here and there you never feel like you are being fully heard. If you can sit down and just say here is what I felt, this is how it hurt, this is what I thought then, etc."

I don't feel like the Cs have "allowed" me to talk about this.

"For example, my DH told me how when I would go out and he knew in his gut I was going to be with an OM he would sit and watch family movies and look at wedding pictures and cry."

I've done stuff like this. Not exactly, because all our home movies and pictures are either in storage or burned in the attic, but I've cried many times thinking about the beautiful times we've had and what was going on without my knowledge the past 12 years that I wasn't aware of.

"He continued to tell me how he felt when all came out, and how he hurts at the moment. It truly helped us."

I am trying to be more descriptive of my feelings lately, without causing too much hurt to HER, so that she'll open up to me as well.
"It takes us awhile to see that you really need these answers to productively move forward. It feels like you are throwing in our face because that's actually what WE do with it. We hear you and throw it at ourselves with the "how could I do this to him", etc. We cannot possibly take away your pain by inflicting it with the answers to these questions."

I wish I could believe that my W truly feels this way, but the fact is that I don't believe she feels much, if any, remorse at all for having the A. Just for marrying me.

"At first we are faced with finally acknolwedging the evil we have inside of us."

She hasn't done this at all that I can tell.

"Then we face the hurt in the heart and eyes of the one person who loves us more than anything, the one person we were always supposed to protect."

She has done this, though she hates the idea of "protecting" each other in M.

"Then we have to accept the fact that WE made these choices, WE caused their pain, but WE CANNOT make it go away. Now, you are asking us to knowingly again inflict more pain on you and it's hard to do. I found that my pain and hurt came from my DH's pain and hurt. It's not that we are really trying to deceive you at this point, but trying to help you work through it."

I will give my W a whole pile of credit for doing this, such that I can tell from her words and actions. She's been very attentive to me, even since D-day.

"I do this to some extent, and she does offer to hold me when I'm upset. Interestingly, I've noticed the last few times that, when I hug her in the hallway or livingroom when I get home from work, she holds onto me longer than I would think she'd want to. I just wish she would tell me what she's thinking, and if she really loves me, then TELL ME. Sure, "actions speak louder than words", but wordless acts are very easy to misinterpret."
FLASHING LIGHTS, SIRENS, MORE LIGHTS AND SIRENS!!!
My dear, this is good, real good. Her lingering hug is saying I love you. It's saying I am so sorry I've hurt you and I don't know how to put it in words. It's saying I don't want to lose you. It's saying don't leave. It's saying have faith in me. It's saying don't quit, don't give up. It's saying oh how I regret what I've done. It's saying I'm scared and lost, but I'm getting there. It's saying please continue to help me along."

tutter, I can FEEL this from her! I need to help her feel safe to TALK to me about her feelings! Now I'm crying again. Damn.

"You are doing a great job. Stay cautious, for sure, but don't miss the little things. I know you need the R to end and end now, and I hope and pray that is just around the corner for you. I once told my DH that I don't expect him to trust me, but that I need him to believe in me, just a little bit. He said ok, and boy did that help me to move to be able to help him.
My best to you. Take care."

Thanks again.

I want to post part of an email I sent to JL just now (JN?). It has to do with my reconstruction of a conversation with my W last night about opposite-sex friendships. Tell me what you think:

Yes. And last night she acknowledged that working with him won't work out. And that being friends with him won't be possible (so why can't she say,"hm... let's write that damned letter, right now!"?).

W: "So, do believe that people can have opposite sex friends?"
Me: "Yes, I actually do. But if you or the other person is M'd, you have to know where to draw the line, beyond which you don't go"
W: "What do you mean?"
Me: "If one of you is attracted to the other, you should back off and wait for the feeling to subside. I actually remembered having a crush on a coworker here at work several years ago, and decided to back off from associating with that person, and never alone."
W: "I remember noticing you appeared to be attracted to our daughter's friend's mother from Girl Scouts (this would have been about 15 years ago)."
Me: "I had forgotten about her. Yes, I would have to say I found her attractive, maybe even had something of a crush on her, but I never acted on it."
W: "So, what other sign of crossing the line is there?"
Me: "NEVER, ever tell the other person how you feel about them. You never know how the other person will react, and telling them can ONLY make matters worse, never better. At best, there will always be a fallback for them to come to you if they're ever having problems in their own M. Control the feeling within yourself. It's an infatuation, after all. It's not true love. And it will pass. It always has with me."

She agreed, then, that a friendship with OMW"s H wouldn't work at that point. So, maybe all I need to do here is keep talking to her? And like I said before, I have to work on my communication skills anyway, whether with her or with someone else (...like maybe a 30-ish blonde, pretty, kinda busty... ...about 3 feet tall and able to suck a golf ball through 30 feet of garden hose! ...sorry about that last! I need to keep myself laughing somehow).

So, how is it possible to have this kind of level-headed, non-fogged conversation and still have her not sure whether to choose OMW's H's pitiful work offer, versus my offer to let her work part-time so she can have the time to set up and work on her research project? I'm Baffled!(actually, Baffled's Baffled, I'm 2long!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Well $HIT!

I tried to have a conversation with my W about our miscommunication problem and it quickly erupted in a "blaming match". I have no idea how this started. I asked her if she had any concerns about me that she needed me to insure that I wouldn't get upset or otherwise make her uncomfortable telling me what's on her mind.

She told me about feeling like she was supposed to feel guilty because a man opened a door for her today, in a somewhat more than just "courteous" manner. Whatever that meant, I was not able to determine, because it escalated into hurtful things I said when I was upset weekend before last that I honestly don't remember saying to her.

THEN, she reminded me that I had plenty of opportunities to "help her" when she would ask for help, saying she was in trouble, but NEVER telling me enough about what the trouble consisted of... ...WHAT WAS I SUPPOSED TO HAVE DONE? I DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT HER A. $hit again. She said I was guilty of not doing anything for her when she was in trouble. I said I will take my share of my responsibility for our failure to communicate during her A, but I don't take any responsibility, whatsoever, for her choice to have an A that I didn't even know about. She got up, got dressed and said "I'm leaving", then she went out to the back porch, where she is right now, I think.

I need to calm down again. This really does feel utterly hopeless. It went on far to long, the lies and deceit, and my W can't even make the simple decision to end the R with Rat Meat once and for all, when there's obviously NOTHING ELSE REASONABLE TO DO.

Before she left, I tried to explain that I felt close to the end of my rope, and that pi$$ed her off, too.

This will not work. That's my prediction. I will ask my IC for some referrals to DV lawyers. We need to figure out how to deal with our properties and get this M shut down. I won't live like this anymore. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

But, I PROMISE not to do anything until I've calmed down for a few days (my IC is not until Monday). I promise.

I can't leave this like that. I just can't.

I've calmed down (pretty fast, doncha think?), and I've thought about what happened and what I said here.

Where am I? Where are we? Where is she?

Well, we're so far from anything like MB that it's ridiculous. Either our Cs are complete turds and we're getting nowhere because we started nowhere and on the wrong issues, or MB, me, YOU folks, and the principles and method that we're all working on is nonsense and has nothing to do with human interactions. Or maybe my W really is the only one in the world that's right about how to live her life (well, in a very real sense, she is).

If we're just off the MB (and any similar) path, the fact is that she's NEVER made any progress "processing" her A since D-day, and I have, and I will let go of this rope at some point soon to stop this pain.

I need to arrange a convo with one of the Harleys soon. I need to do this just for myself - to see if it's really true that they know how to "connect" as well as you fine folks say they do. I also need someone that will make an effort to talk to my W, if I can somehow persuade her to listen. I'm not at all sure that I can, though. This stubborness has plagued the women in her family for at least 3 generations now. It was always kind of funny in the past, but now I think it could be an insurmountable obstacle to our recovery which, realistically, was one helluva long way off before this argument ensued tonight.

I have little hope left. Just my own determination NOT to let my self-esteem suffer and trash some future relationship for me.

Again, no big decisions right now. Calm reflection, lots of tears, gonna buy some books to read, call to the Harleys. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Hey there 2long,

Well, I'm roasting here without air conditioning and it was like 105 here today... So as I baste in my own juices, let me throw out a few thoughts...

>>> I need to do this just for myself - to see if it's really true that they know how to "connect" as well as you fine folks say they do <<<

Let's be honest here, though... they're not magicians, just very experienced at this... I can only guess how many cases they've seen... and if I were a betting man, I'd bet that no matter what they say, each case turns out how it turns out mainly because of the free will of the people involved - our efforts only really make a dent in that, I believe.

>>> and the principles and method that we're all working on is nonsense and has nothing to do with human interactions <<<

Nah... I think it's about proper execution, but no matter how "perfect" - again - it's all about free will, so in the end, it's a crap shoot. I think those who succeed, sadly, are often the ones whose WS's fall into very "inefficient" A's - ones that eventally just do seem absurd or too costly. As even Dr.Harley admits, if OP can meet the WS's EN's, then the M is over.

In terms of human interactions, I think it boils down to knowing your spouse - knowing their personality, and "using it against them" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Figuring out how to do that has been an incredible challenge, and does seem to require much "on the fly" tuning, I've found. If one key doesn't work, don't force it - try another!

>>> if I can somehow persuade her to listen <<<

Yeah, that's always an uphill battle... sometimes they'll listen to silence... kind of like you noted when you don't answer her calls, etc. It's often true that the BS can "worry" the WS that they can lose them... sound ridiculous, given that the WS "wants" to lose the BS? Well, you've noted her reactions at times... now THAT's human behavior... Our IC/MC has encouraged WW to not "act out of fear" and make decisions for her own good, etc. - but WW still reacts in the predicted ways when faced with the situations you descibed.

>>> Just my own determination NOT to let my self-esteem suffer and trash some future relationship for me. <<<

I can understand that. If you can find ways to start restoring yourself, even during Plan A, that's always good - because WS can "see that" - that you're behaving more confidently, independently and strongly... That's ALWAYS very attractive - another human nature thing. I know, though - it is very tough. Got the t-shirt.

Too bad you can't go on a vacation like I did!! Have you by chance read Dobson's "Love Must Be Tough" sometime? It's got some interesting ideas on human behavior in relationships.

Anyhow, get some sleep, maybe go for a walk... who knows what the next moment will bring.

2L; you're still making this about her; what she does/does not do/say/feel. You KNOW this is not the way this works...you've seen my struggles with the same thing. And you know what? It was ONLY when I began to make it about ME, and began to detach from her and her actions that things seemed to start working. I know; TOTALLY counter-intuitive, totally lacking in logic or sense...but true nonetheless.

Get on the horn with Harley, get the books and start reading, get yourself some projects you can work on (my bonsai are coming along beautifully!), and begin to ignore her and her actions/non-actions. Get away for a few days if you have to.

Just try it. I guarantee you will begin to see a difference. Let HER wonder, let HER think, let HER work on her.

Well, it's a new day, right? I guess so.

What the hell is "parenthesis in html tag"? I tried to post this message 3 times and got this error.

I can't post my reply to you, J.R., due to that error message. What the hell?

I can't post my reply to you, J.R., due to that error message. What the hell?

J.R.:
"Well, I'm roasting here without air conditioning and it was like 105 here today... So as I baste in my own juices, let me throw out a few thoughts..."

It's almost that hot here. And, driving home from Utah Sunday, through Vegas in holiday traffic, we had to keep the AC down to keep the van from overheating, so now I've got heat rashes in some of the strangest places - the tops of my feet!
"" I need to do this just for myself - to see if it's really true that they know how to "connect" as well as you fine folks say they do""
Let's be honest here, though... they're not magicians, just very experienced at this... I can only guess how many cases they've seen... and if I were a betting man, I'd bet that no matter what they say, each case turns out how it turns out mainly because of the free will of the people involved - our efforts only really make a dent in that, I believe."

I guess I suspect that this is right. I really don't think my IC is incompetent, don't really KNOW about my W's IC, but I still can't believe that our MC recommended we "stop for now" just when we were starting to identify the communication problems. I guess I'm looking for the magic bullet that doesn't exist. I have NO experience with Cing before all this broke, and so I can't really evaluate how good it's been.

"I think those who succeed, sadly, are often the ones whose WS's fall into very "inefficient" A's - ones that eventally just do seem absurd or too costly."

To my knowledge, my W's A didn't "cost" anything. They met when he was in town or she was out of town, so they were on business, though some of the trips were probably contrived to kill two birds with one stone. *I*, not surprisingly, think the A is absurd, however. But the absurdity has to do with the cakewalking aspects, and WSs can't see that, or they wouldn't have As.

"As even Dr.Harley admits, if OP can meet the WS's EN's, then the M is over."

OM really can't. But WW had "planned" all along (for several years, at least) to "be by herself" if our M didn't work out.

"In terms of human interactions, I think it boils
down to knowing your spouse - knowing their personality, and "using it against them"
Figuring out how to do that has been an incredible challenge, and does seem to require much "on the fly" tuning, I've found. If one key doesn't work, don't force it - try another!"

The amazing thing about this experience is that I thought I had been doing all the right things, but the reactions to my "cautious probing" have all seemed to be explosive. Catch me by complete surprise every time. And so it appears that I'm trying, throughout, to give my W the benefit of the doubt (and there's plenty, because we don't adequately communicate), and I wind up thinking she's further along than she is, so she explodes, I get majorly disappointed with myself AND her, and feel the only thing to do (now, at least) is withdraw even further from her.
"" if I can somehow persuade her to listen"" Yeah, that's always an uphill battle... sometimes they'll listen to silence... kind of like you noted when you don't answer her calls, etc."

And so I find myself thinking: I'm going to have to back off to the point that our "relationship" is about working on the house together in silence, working on her research project with her in silence, maybe some quiet SF from time to time (I actually don't want SF now, and am worried I won't respond if she initiates, and what that might precipitate), and waiting for the "problems" to go away. They won't, of course.

"It's often true that the BS can "worry" the WS that they can lose them... sound ridiculous, given that the WS "wants" to lose the BS? Well, you've noted her reactions at times... now THAT's human behavior... Our IC/MC has encouraged WW to not "act out of fear" and make decisions for her own good, etc. - but WW still reacts in the predicted ways when faced with the situations you descibed."

So does mine. And so I try to be reassuring, try to get a handle on what she's thinking (because I CAN'T keep guessing how she's doing and thus how WE'RE doing), and it backfires. I do these things because we DO seem to connect so well when we're working on things together or when we're on vacation together, but I'm clearly making some wrong interpretations. This is why the "actions speak louder than words" cliche (which my W believes in, strongly) really pisses me off. They do, but actions without words are probably more easily misinterpreted than words without actions (and *I* STRONGLY believe THAT).

""Just my own determination NOT to let my self-esteem suffer and trash some future relationship for me.""
I can understand that. If you can find ways to start restoring yourself, even during Plan A, that's always good - because WS can "see that" - that you're behaving more confidently, independently and strongly... That's ALWAYS very attractive - another human nature thing. I know, though - it is very tough. Got the t-shirt."

And this is exactly why I got into the mess I did last night (and recently). I felt very good about my plan A, and decided it was time to see what I could do about US, with this "new and improved me" in command. So, since we don't communicate enough, and her IC is NOT dealing with the A at all, I ran right into the brick wall.

"Too bad you can't go on a vacation like I did!!"

Hm...

"Have you by chance read Dobson's "Love Must Be Tough" sometime? It's got some interesting ideas on human behavior in relationships."

No. I've been a bad boy about reading. Only HNHN, maybe 3 times, and not for the past 3 months or so. Posting and Cing.

"Anyhow, get some sleep, maybe go for a walk... who knows what the next moment will bring."

I almost got up and came to work - at 11:30 last night! - to clean out my office or SOMEthing. But I slept instead. W came in this am about 5:15, before the alarm, fully clothed, and didn't say anything. I didn't try to do anything or say anything for a time, then I got up, got me a crock of crud (coffee) and her a Dr Pepper (her am drug), and she said "thank you." I laid down again and fiddled with her toes, rubbed her back, nothing special, just to show that I'm not angry. Then, took a shower, came back, got dressed, hugged her on the bed for a time, talked a bit about cleaning my office out, wished her a good day at work (and she, me), and headed out the door.

So, here I am. Still hanging on to that knot, and wondering what the rope is about in the first place.

SC:

"2L; you're still making this about her; what she does/does not do/say/feel. You KNOW this is not the way this works...you've seen my struggles with the same thing. And you know what? It was ONLY when I began to make it about ME, and began to detach from her and her actions that things seemed to start working. I know; TOTALLY counter-intuitive, totally lacking in logic or sense...but true nonetheless."

SC, I realize this. I honestly thought we were close to being able to start recovery, especially after the conversation I reconstructed and posted yesterday and to JL. So, I thought I could continue with that tack, to talk calmly about what issues we had, particularly what we both saw as issues after our "last" MC session.

I was wrong. I'm actually pretty sure I need to back off quite a bit - hopefully without falling over, firmly root myself in plan A and cogitate about plan B. I'm going to draft that plan B letter over the next few days for perusal and suggestions. Hope I never have to use it, though.

"Get on the horn with Harley, get the books and start reading, get yourself some projects you can work on (my bonsai are coming along beautifully!), and begin to ignore her and her actions/non-actions. Get away for a few days if you have to."

This is something we've talked about many times. Since you are the home "handyman" and so am I, I think we know how hard this is to do. Like, if I tell my W "no, I won't be here Saturday to help clean the maids bedroom in the house with you. I'm going to play by myself for the weekend" I'm going to be the BAD GUY. If I say "No, not working on the house because I want to finally finish the restoration on my Model A that I haven't touched in 20 years" I'm the BAD GUY.

So, does this really work?

"Just try it. I guarantee you will begin to see a difference. Let HER wonder, let HER think, let HER work on her."

I really want/need to do this. I just don't know how, or what to expect. Maybe you're right, though. Maybe it would work.

But that was her major complaint as to why she had the 2nd A with Rat Meat - I was spending all my time with my telescopes and "none" with her. If I do something like that now, I'm concerned she'll rationalize it as justification to resume her A. I'd be FLAT DONE if that were to happen. ...maybe I should do that.

Heck, maybe that's the idea. I've got 3 cars of my own. Currently 2 run and one's driveable. I should restore the Model A, fix the truck, and sell 2 of the cars (I'd like to drive the Model A - see what she thinks of THAT change!).

I should note that I got a call from my W before my last post.

The contractors are back at work on the roof (after a month of inactivity!). I thanked her for the call, she was pleasant, and we signed off.

WTF?

You know? I was going to post another part of our "argument" last night that had to do with a sign in a trucker's window last week and how my W reacted to it. We'd brought it up at our MC session, and they both misunderstood how I reacted to her reaction to the trucker's sign.

But, I realize now that it's just focusing too much on her and what she may or may not be thinking. We came to an impasse about it. Not just an impasse, but what I would label a "wild misinterpretation" on the part of the MC and my W of how I felt about it.

No, it's nothing more than a big withdral from my LB$, and a majorly useless exercise in mental masturbation. Back to working on ME.

<small>[ July 11, 2002, 11:15 AM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

2long,

Once again you make me smile!! Honestly your sense of humor...and I bet you don't even know when you're being funny!!

For perspective get this...My WH is the one who found MB when he was in the waiting room at the docs office. He picked up HNHN back in February. He really like it so he bought a copy and later bought a copy for me.

Me clueless in February read it...said hmmmm...interesting; but I'm not in "a place" where I can do the recommended exercises...let me get back to you on that.

WH continues to read the book and it convinces him "he says" of the wisdom to tell me about his A.

So d-day in March "blew me out of the water". I frantically read HNHN; looked in the back of the book and bought SAA. Looked in the back of that book after reading it and found this website...and here I am.

WH continues to be adamantly supportive of MB philosophy and principles; HOWEVER....he struggles with the stuff that according to MB is his responsibility...and he debates SH during appointment time....then always later comes back and says "Yes he gets it".

The extreme rollercoaster ride for me has had me saying absurd things like "MB isn't working for us"; let's just stop the appointments, the reading, the questionnaires etc and try to see if the dumb old way we tried to relate before works again.

So childish (especially on my part). Point being, even with ME a full believer in MB principles, WH the "finder of MB" for us; we still struggle with the ridiculous.

The fog-reality-fog-reality-fogfogfogfogfog...the WS float in and out constantly. I never know who I am going to be interacting with until I start the conversation. That is what I see happening with you.

With your WW strong family history of STUBBORN women...yikes - many women wear that like a badge. The very definition of cutting their noses off to spite their faces.

Thank God for this forum... The only place I feel sane or feel the insanity is sane...CSue

CSue:

Very good points. It is amazing that I don't come to the realization on my own that the idea that the grass would always appear greener on the side of the fence you people that USE MB Cing are on - is just another form of foggy thinking. Even if it were true, it's just grass. And we're not fixing lawnmowers here.

I have decided that, for now, I have to go back and read some of SC's thread on "detaching with love" and try that approach. I need to continue my plan A, draft a plan B, and not try so hard to wake my W up - let her ask me or tell me stuff that's on her mind.

I KNOW what I need to stay M'd. All this silly argument stuff is a waste of everybody's time, and amounts only to LB$ withdrawls. There's absolutely no point in having them at all if she won't end her R with Rat Meat, once and for all. If she does (and soon), great. If she doesn't, by focusing on me and letting her participate in the M on her terms, I'll eventually be able to determine when it's time to implement plan B. As SCBI said on hcii's thread, when I no longer feel hurt by her actions/words, I will be ready to call it quits without being devastated myself. I need not to be, so that I can be together for my family afterwards.

2long,

The detaching with love; I believe is the 180 mentioned in his post. I copied it and am using it too. Came from the book Divorce Remedy

What happened to me recently after our failed attempt to work through SH's recommended Recovery Plan (however since the failed attempt; we did manage it successfully); I felt an "emotional separation". It just "Happened" to me.

I discussed that separation with SH this week; I termed it a "paradigm shift". After describing the feeling; SH told me what I was experiencing. What occurred is that "MY" recovery from the A split from the "M"'s recovery from the A.

Reason being according to SH is that I pulled within to find a safe recovery. And that since I can only control me; my recovery efforts regressed to me; for me; about me.

He didn't say whether this was a good or bad situation; just a safe situation. He told me what to focus on...it's another assignment!! CSue

I'm thinking I should change my sig line, use this song instead of "secret world". This song really hits home with me right now. It'd make my sig line 2long, though!

Peter Gabriel, "Come talk to me":

The wretched desert takes its form, the jackal proud and tight
In search of you, I feel my way, through the slowest heaving night
Whatever fear invents, I swear it make no sense
I reach out through the border fence
Come down, come talk to me

In the swirling, curling storm of desire unuttered words hold fast
With reptile tongue, the lightning lashes - towers built to last
Darkness creeps in like a thief and offers no relief
Why are you shaking like a leaf
Come on, come talk to me

Ah please talk to me
Won't you please talk to me
We can unlock this misery
Come on, come talk to me

{Chorus 1:}
I did not come to steal
This all is so unreal
Can't you show me how you feel now
Come on, come talk to me
Come talk to me [x2]

The earthly power sucks shadowed milk from sleepy tears undone
From nippled skin as smooth as silk the bugles blown as one
You lie there with your eyes half closed like there's no-one there at all
There's a tension building on your face
Come on, come talk to me

Won't you please talk to me
If you'd just talk to me
Unblock this misery
If you'd only talk to me

{Chorus 2:}
Don't you ever change your mind
Now your future's so defined
And you act so deaf and blind
[And you act so deaf so blind]
Come on, come talk to me
Come talk to me [x2]

I can imagine the moment
Breaking out through the silence
All the things that we both might say
And the heart it will not be denied
'Til we're both on the same damn side
All the barriers blown away

I said please talk to me
Won't you please come talk to me
Just like it used to be
Come on, come talk to me
I did not come to steal
This all is so unreal
Can you show me how you feel now
Come on, come talk to me
Come talk to me [x2]

I said please talk to me
If you'd just talk to me
Unblock this misery
If you'd only talk to me
[Chorus 2]

((((((((((hugz)))))))))))
and....

platicake!!! a chocolate cake with a rather suspicious beak, tail and duck feet poking out of it. Just don't look at them for prolonged lapses of time. You know, they got "Issues" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />