Ugh.

Ok...first of all...your current anguish at what you've found. If you were to have found this type of emailing while you knew the A to be happening, you would have been THRILLED because it was primarily business and points to there being ONLY contact via email...nothing in person. It disturbs you now because you believed, or wanted to believe, that you are in recovery. It's obvious you aren't. As long as their is contact there cannot be recovery...and at NO TIME has she agreed to no contact. So your current distress is because of your own expectations. Sorry :-(

As far as your wife goes...she's too big for her britches. The idea of working TOGETHER in your marriage is far from what she has in mind. She wants to drag you along to play with while she continues to do whatever she wants whenever she wants. She can see you love her and believes that you will rattle your sabre every now and then...she'll appease you for a while...and everything will go along uneventfully again. She certainly doesn't seem to give a rats butt how deeply any of this has hurt you. I was terribly mean to my hubby verbally....but I CERTAINLY NEVER expected him to be ok with me having contact with the OM. I went to great lengths to keep that from him...you're wife is arrogant in her flaunting of this to you. I'm sure she loves you and would love to remained married to you, but she truly believes that she can "get her way" the way things are now.

You've got to stand up for yourself and let her see that you are indeed EXTREMELY serious about letting go of your entire life plans if you can't be given the common couresy that marital partners grant one another. I know you care about how this will affect the kids...but realize you and your wife, your marriage, is an example for them. I'm sure they know way more than you'd imagine.

Don't do it tonight. You've GOT to get yourself some sleep or you'll just babble with furiousity and she'll use it against you. Get your plan together...get your ducks in a row...avoid her if it's necessary. There is NEVER a perfect time or situation to go to Plan B...so if you're trying to do it perfectly...there's no such thing. The best thing you can do is to mellow out for a while and approach her when you're head is so together it will shock her into reality.

Take care....I'm sorry it's come to this. :-(

2long,

I'm no expert... don't even play one on T.V...

But I will say a couple of things...

1. I always advocate going into Plan B on a "high note"... that means ending Plan A with projecting to the WS the best image possible. That's what they're FORCED to remember - forever! (If the M works, they think eventually "what a great guy to have behaved well, even when I was being a b****"; if it doesn't, they've got some serious guilt that cannot be avoided.)

2. #1 tends to imply behaving exactly the opposite of how you feel!! I.e. the whole flower, lovey thing isn't necessarily all that far off, like others have noted. When you feel like following your heart (e.g. anger), follow your head... Most good things happen when it comes from the head.

3. #1 & #2 tend to imply something... don't know if you can manage it... but another 1-2 weeks of REALLY GOOD PLAN A might be ideal. You can go into doing it, thinking this way... You're really p***ed, right? You don't feel like doing it, right? That's why you need to do it... Do it to give YOU choices... because it will give you more "options" if and when WW finally pulls out of her addiction.

4. If you just can't do #3, it's a sign that it is definitely Plan B time. Get your letter posted up here ASAP and we'll all take a look.

5. If you read my recent update, nothing's black and white... You'll need to find the right balance for your situation. All I know is that avoiding LB'ing right now is critical.

Let us know how IC goes...

h4f:

THank you!

I'm going to take my laptop with me to my IC and get his thoughts about what's been said.

Hope that's jake with y'all <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Hell 2Long ... I'll drive to the airport and pick her up !!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I'd love to have a little "girl talk" with your bride. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

.. I HATE LAX though ... please tell me it's Burbank <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I have a Honda van ... lots of luggage room ... want me to go? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ????????

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

ROTFLMAO!! Yea, that'd get her attention. Another WOMAN going to pick her up at the airport.

Hi Mrs Long...I'm a gooood friend of Mr Long. He was extrememly busy and I offered to help him out. So how was your trip?

LOL!

2long... hey friend.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ... just wanted to give you my dependable vote of support (and prayers <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )... I know you'll make the right decisions.

I love J.R.'s suggestions.

Keep us posted!

{{{{{{2long}}}}}}

H4F ... GURL, you are as wicked and twisted as I am ... wouldn't that just be PERFECT... a strange woman goes to airport instead of 2Long! .............ROAR! LAFF'ING MY [censored] OFF! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Pepper:

I'll bet you're cute, too!! Let that fester in her craw!! (and yeah it IS Burbank...)

(oh, and if were to see fit to jerk a knot upside her purdy li'l ol' haid on my behalf, I wouldn't mind too much)

Hi all. Man, what a great bunch of MBers out there! Hey, I think I've won my IC over to the MB method!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

He recommended much of what J.R. describes. He saw me and listened to me, and helped me level off so that I'm pretty sure I can keep upbeat when I go to pick them up. *IF* I have to redefine my boundaries, and I think I will, and soon, I can cite the conversations on the way home after the 4th, and the one yesterday on the way to the airport as my reasons for suspecting that there's continued contact, some of it personal, and she's not telling me about it. And, if it's innocent, why the hell not? That way, I wouldn't have to reveal my snooping.

My IC said that I may need to go to plan B in the not-too-distant future, but to wait until I really feel like I don't WANT her before I do that. He doesn't want me to put myself through the pain of wondering if I did the right thing, when I love her so much. He also said, if I do go to plan B, to ask HER to leave, not to leave myself. After all, she's the one that defiled the M, not me (though she'll compare her A to my withdrawal - bless her li'l ol' heart!).

She's definitely making doing a good plan A harder, and definitely making wanting to be M'd to her increasingly impossible.

She can make a couple of "simple" choices here to start (not easy, JL!):
1) tell me about work-related contact when it happens. Better yet, don't use a hotmail account for work-related email!
2) Understand that having OM work on her personal project out of state with her is NOT at all acceptable to me.

That would be a good start, that would make me feel like it might be possible to get this M on the road to recovery.

There's more, as you know, but that'd be a good start.

I guess I just don't know if she's all that interested at this point.

<small>[ July 16, 2002, 05:49 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

H4F:

How about :

Hi Mrs Long...I'm a gooood friend of Mr Long. We talk all day long on this wonderful forum for folks trying to survive the aftermath of bombshells like yourself! He was extrememly busy and I offered to help him out. He was busy writing his 1700th post since February! So how was your trip?

2long,

I haven't had a chance to get on my computer until now to see what has been happening to you. As you know I mentioned that I am close to someone in an A similar to your W's situation. Therefore I have some thoughts from having a ringside seat.

1st of all; I believe I mentioned that with the A going on for 12 years; it's become a way of life for your W. She's been able to compartmentalize that part of her life separate from the rest of her life; and she has proven to herself that she can manage both. She doesn't want to give up either world unless she HAS to.

The other part is that she never saw him very often so he's never had to meet very many of her EN's. And remember she said the SF with you is superior...that's a big one!! So she's dependent on you to meet most of ENs.

I believe that if you do go to a plan b; it will pull the rug right out from under her world and leave her sitting on her butt. I agree that she needs to be the one to leave the house. Gives her a better dose of reality/consequences of her actions.

Remember how you said that she felt that the A has ruined so many people's lives? I am sure she is a decent person and when she sees the pain she causes you and your children if/when you go to plan b; it will ruin the remaining fantasy she may have.

I admire your calculated reaction to what has occurred. I believe you are dealing with this in a way that will give you peace regardless of the outcome. Detach with love! I think you are doing great! CSue

2long,

Another thought is that with her type of A going on for so long and is such a HUGE EA; NO CONTACT means NO CONTACT.

I don't know how you could feel safe AT ALL as long as there is any form of contact. I see you writing pages and pages of boundaries regarding what type of contact is acceptable to you if you leave the door open for her at all to have any contact.

Just a thought as you contemplate writing a plan B. I'm thrilled your IC is right there with you, giving support!! CSue

CSue:

THanks for the vote of confidence. Heckarooonies, I think I'm doing pretty great, too!

If I need to go to plan B, and I'm fairly certain now that I will, eventually, I believe it will destroy her remaining fantasies.

One of my biggest concerns about restoring our M is that she DOESN'T want to give up her 12-yr R with Rat Meat, and doesn't think that she'll have to either. She WILL have to give up ME, in that case, however. Right now, she probably thinks that wouldn't be so bad, but hey... we're not talking about putting her in the guest house or the "maid's" bedroom here. We're talking about OUT. Go find someplace of your own, on your own nickle, NOT TOO NEARBY, so that you have to drive between there and here.

THAT might wake her up.

CSue:

Yeah, I have a tough time with the work-related contact. For the big projects, it's possible that some workaround could be set up so that they don't ever talk with each other, but I doubt it. NOTHING else will work, though.

No no, skip the forward reference to the MB board and leave more to the imagination. Like:

Hi Mrs Long! Mr Long asked me if I could pick you up. I'm always willing to do a favor for such a good friend *misty faraway look*. How do I know Mr Long? Well, we met online and have leaned on each other for support during some pretty rough times *sad look*. I just don't know what I'd have done without him *choke up*. Anyway, I hear your daughter is heading to *country* soon! (and on and on about in depth personal info that only a close friend would/should know).

Hee hee....oh yea...see, I could have DEVILISH fun with that role. I always did love the theatre. *misty faraway look*

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>CSue:

THanks for the vote of confidence. Heckarooonies, I think I'm doing pretty great, too! .</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Especially with no sleep! Watch yourself closely with self control!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>If I need to go to plan B, and I'm fairly certain now that I will, eventually, I believe it will destroy her remaining fantasies

One of my biggest concerns about restoring our M is that she DOESN'T want to give up her 12-yr R with Rat Meat, and doesn't think that she'll have to either. She WILL have to give up ME, in that case, however. Right now, she probably thinks that wouldn't be so bad, but hey... we're not talking about putting her in the guest house or the "maid's" bedroom here. .</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm betting that she will think it's real bad to have to give you up. In a sense before you found out about the A you were enabling her to continue both of her lives. Now that you know...it's a different game. Plus she not only loses you; she loses quite alot when your son finds out and the rest of the world you share with her finds out as well.

QUOTE]Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>We're talking about OUT. Go find someplace of your own, on your own nickle, NOT TOO NEARBY, so that you have to drive between there and here.

THAT might wake her up.</strong>[/QUOTE]

2long, I think it will. I kind of feel sorry for her. CSue

Hi 2long,

I am back again after a night's sleep and the morning school rush. I see you have been getting some good advice, and I am glad you got to see the IC.

When you pick her up, stay strong, and try to be upbeat with her. She is no doubt expecting you to be a bit flat after her absence. I always find that taking the opposite stance of what they THINK you will be like, throws them for a loop.

Put on your happy smile, look good, smell great, and greet her warmly. Be cheerful, be upbeat, tell her you got a few things done while she was away but you missed her sooooooooo much, and all that other Plan A stuff. Suggest going out to dinner, or maybe offer to make it for her.

Then casually ask her how the trip went, and when she gives you the predictable short answers, just keep smiling, and agreeing with her. You will see a puzzlement in her eyes about your attitude.

Now all that stuff is going to set the scene for the evening, and seeing her confusion is going to give you strength to keep on Plan A'ing at least for tonight. Remember, you do not want to put her on guard. If she knows you are watching her, she will be extra careful.

Believe me, this kind of thing CAN be done. In my worst pain, I did some of the BEST Plan A'ing.

I know you can do it.

Love and light,

Jacky

Don't get me wrong here...I agree about HER being the one to get the boot. The ONLY thing I'm unsure of in that situation is this. I think for a wayward spouse it hits home harder when the betrayed spouse leaves THEM. Because they're left and it's their own fault. Versus getting the boot...they get to feel resentment and anger towards the betrayed spouse (especially due to the embarassment of being kicked out) and put on a show for the kids about how they were kicked out etc... Just something to gnaw on.

CSue:

"Another thought is that with her type of A going on for so long and is such a HUGE EA; NO CONTACT means NO CONTACT.
I don't know how you could feel safe AT ALL as long as there is any form of contact. I see you writing pages and pages of boundaries regarding what type of contact is acceptable to you if you leave the door open for her at all to have any contact."

I don't know if I've posted this already, but here are my "requirements" that I'm incorporating into my draft plan B letter:

1) If you have not yet hired Rat Meat to work on these upcoming projects, DO NOT hire him. Get someone else to do that work, or do some other analysis.
2) If you HAVE already hired Rat Meat for these projects, FIRE HIM NOW.
3) If you have already hired him to work on these projects, and you CAN’T fire him, QUIT YOUR JOB. You aren’t happy with that company anyway, and you're often talking about leaving it.
4) DO NOT have Rat Meat involved in your project out of state, in any way, whatsoever.
5) We need to write a “No Contact” letter that we can both agree on and sign, to Rat Meat, instructing him to stay out of your life for the rest of your life. We should send this letter to Rat Meat, to Mrs. Meat, and to Rat Meat's boss. I want it clear to them that if this “proposal opportunity” he mentioned to you gets supported, that he is NOT to be involved with your project out of state in any way.

Nina Too:

I appreciate the thoughts. Hopefully, I can make dinner for her before I just pass out from exhaustion!

H4F:

" posted July 16, 2002 06:32 PM                     
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't get me wrong here...I agree about HER being the one to get the boot. The ONLY thing I'm unsure of in that situation is this. I think for a wayward spouse it hits home harder when the betrayed spouse leaves THEM. Because they're left and it's their own fault. Versus getting the boot...they get to feel resentment and anger towards the betrayed spouse (especially due to the embarassment of being kicked out) and put on a show for the kids about how they were kicked out etc... Just something to gnaw on."

Yeah, I had told my IC that I planned to be the one to leave, but he didn't think that I should. And since our sitch is still complicated, it makes sense for the one with the marbles to handle the family/house issues while she's "on sabbatical" from the M. I had thought, if she stayed, that I would let her handle the bills and continue to have my paycheck deposited in our joint acct. IC said wrong. Get a family attorney to separate the finances and make her live on her income and us on mine. I would probably have to get the bills consolidated to get control of them, but I'm not afraid to do that kind of thing. And, I'd get my check deposited into a new acct that she doesn't have access to. Loving hardball.

Good point...good idea.

Really...if you do these things that you've said and STICK TO IT...she's going to have more respect for you than anger. If my hubby had layed it out instead of layed down and been a floormat...I think I would have quit my childish tantrums sooner. She'll scream "control freak" for a while...but she'll get over it.