Okay, I made it in to work. I've been doing a lot of reflecting on what I found, what I've posted, what I've gotten in reply, how my W and I interacted last night (was depressing to me), and how we paired up socks together this am and I loaded the dishwasher and gave her a kiss before leaving for work. Then I thought some more walking in from the parking lot to my office. Well, I still feel a lot of anger and resentment, because I keep beating myself up for having thought we were further along than we are, and realizing, sometimes via a shock, that we're not.

On the positive side, I can look forward to the weekend activities that we've planned without worrying about whether I can put my plan A back to work and cheer myself up (and maybe cheer her up in the process). I don't think I'll do anything rash yet, other than to draft some plan B letters for feedback, but I have 2 IC appointments coming up week after next, and I plan to go over what I'm feeling, what I know, and what I think my W is doing at that time. One of the ICs my last appointment at personnel services at work, the other (the next day) is my regular IC. I will ask both of them for referrals to family attorneys, and will probably talk to one later in August, to see just what my options - fairest to all - might be.

I certainly hope that something else will wake my W up, but I can't see what will. And since she's better at arguments than I am, and I am a conflict avoider by birth, I think some kind of separation might be the only thing to do it.

It became clear to me, after reading all these responses and hearing my W's complaints to me, mostly about me, last night (she easily gets very cynical when she's tired), that my W does not see the need to deal with the OM "problem" before working on our M. She cites the point that the A is a symptom of the problems within the M as justification for not really dealing with the A (which she believes is over, so what's wrong with continuing to work with OM?), and she beats ME over the head with THAT (just like she thinks I beat her over the head about her A - which is the past, remember?).

I shoulda had Pepper pick her up at the airport! But on the condition that she take her home with HER <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Orchid:

"Remember that plan B is about detaching an protecting 2Long's love. In this mode, there is no more groveling, doormat performance. You will stretch your wings and find out there is a life out there. You will look in the mirror and not see a betrayed spouse but a good person who has a lot to give and will learn to appreciate what he/she receives."

I've had moments of this. When I feel like I'm trapped, I'll go up in the attic of our house, maybe even climb out on the roof, and watch the sun go down (it's one helluva view, we're the tallest house on a hilltop - I can see Palos Verdes, 20 miles away). ...of course, I have to bring a flashlight, because there's still no electricity in the house, and it gets DARK fast). And that lets me cut my spirit loose. I learned a long time ago to "travel" through the universe when outside alone at night with my telescopes. It's a cheap vacation.

"What the WS will see is a piece of her life leaving her. No longer will you be meeting her ENs. Women tend to take their man to task when this happens so a bit of a tantrum period will exist for a while. Know that it is temporary (could be months)."

I'm starting to realize that my W could be one of those that takes longer than average for this to work. And so I'm factoring that into my thinking about when to go to plan B. Not an easy decision, lots of ramifications, and I have to be prepared for the potential consequences.

"Nonetheless, it will bring relief of the current stress you are carrying. You may not even be aware of how much you are carrying but soon your body will tell on you. Bags under your eyes, shortened temper, disoriented babble, despair and I don't care will start to set in and you still won't be able to sleep."

Like the last couple of nights!! And yesterday, I hadn't eaten breakfast and I was starving. Forced myself to get a sandwich and shoehorned it down, but it wasn't easy. At least I DO know that I have to take care of myself.

"In plan B your body is given some relief and learns to rest. Of course you may still have anxiety attacks, nightmares and some sleepless nights. Posting here helps. Helping others helps. Those bad things will subside, they too are temporary.
But you will set your boundaries and enforce them. You may find that you want some of those boundaries to stay even if she does come back."

I agree. I'd actually prefer the obvious boundaries agreed upon BEFORE one of us leaves, but I don't expect that.

"For me, I also keep plan B in my back pocket. Posting here helps me.
Hope this helps you. "

It most certainly does.

One of the things I realized during my recovery is that I could make up my mind to be a person who has a happy life attitude no matter what the marital outcome became post-affair. My responsibility to manage my oun moods and my own attitude is not unlike my responsibility to manage my own diet, my own exercise, my own sleep hygiene .... I am independently happy by choice. If you feel as though your life was robbed by your wandering spouse's choice to have an EMA ... your choices effectively erased ... You still can choose your attitude about these events ... and can choose to live differently. This transitional period of letting go is very sad ... but eventually you will feel empowered by your strength and your choices to live by your ethics and your honor. Your dear wife, however, will be choosing to live with dishonor ... and that is a more difficult position in the long run. There are consequences for our decisions just as there are laws of physics .... the cost of being deceitful and dishonorable is not easily seen by the person blinded by infatuation or navigating with their emotions. You are on the right path. We will walk with you dear friend.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ July 17, 2002, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

john39:

"The emotional warm fuzzies one receives from admiration is not dependent on what one is admired for. My wife actually said in the MC's office that I could not admire her for what she wanted to be admired for, which contributed to her vulnerability to the affair - her competence at work."

I like your point here. I also would say that my W would say something like yours did - that she needs the admiration for the specific things she does as a scientist. She has had very serious self-esteem issues about her work and how it's received (she's dyslexic, and had to live with the stigma that she was "stupid" until she was diagnosed when she was 30 yrs old, and so the stigma remains). After D-day, during a HUGE argument, she screamed at me about how I had such a good job and how she sacrificed her dreams so that I could have my career. Well, I've been at this job for 21 years now, and it was a MAJOR struggle for me up until only about 7 years ago. She encouraged me to persue my dream 21 years ago, and so I encouraged her to persue HERS 19 years ago. She did. It's been a struggle, but she's also been rewarded recently with a couple of good opportunities. My challenge now will be to show her, not just by telling her, that SHE built her career HERSELF, she didn't NEED OM's "help" the past 12 years to get to where she is now. He DIDN'T help, he got romantically involved with her TWICE, broke up his family, and now is trying (perhaps not deliberately, though it is possible) to break up ours.

"So any admiration will be effective, though the number of love units deposited may vary with the type of admiration."

I believe you are right. I also believe that the tendency for the particular type of admiration to deposit more units is greatest while the WS is in the fog and still thinks that they can't lose the OP because they'll lose that type of admiration. My challenge, again, will be to show my W that she WON'T lose that, that she CAN'T lose that. Her focus within her profession does NOT consist solely of OM and his work, there's a much broader scientific community out there that will see what she does for it's own value, not what an individual (OM) might or might not be able to contribute to it.

"The other aspect of collaboration/admiration was RC - my wife's highest EN. Collaboration at work was fulfilling her RC need."

This is interesting. I have no idea where RC ranks with my W, she won't fill out any ENQ. Her field is very much an outdoor activity. Often in beautiful settings. But I also don't know if she and OM ever worked together in the field. They met while working in a lab.

"I also thought long and hard about separating (before I knew about the affair), and decided that if I did, I would leave, because I wanted her to understand how much I did for her (I was the at-home parent while we lived in a foreign country, and we had three kids, one in pre-school)."

I've thought along these lines as well. I reallly believe that even if I were to go away for a day and not contact her or answer the phone (I've done this, and recently) that she'd REALLY miss the things I do around the house - I've got a veritable cabinet shop in my garage, and make/repair a lot of what we own.

"While this may have worked, I think now that kicking her out may have been just as effective. Home was a refuge for her, as was her relationships with our children."

Best comment I got from my W last night, after having been gone on this business trip for only 30 hours or so, was "I missed you and the kids. I missed being home." That meant more to me than anything else we said to each other the whole evening.

"Hard call, but your C knows more about your particular situation than I do, so maybe you should follow their advice."

And I'm really still educating him about the details of our situation.

"You might want to check with a lawyer about the legal ramifications of kicking her out. If she were to come home to changed locks and her belongings in suitcases on the lawn, what could she do??"

Destroy the entire universe with a single shout. Trust me, I've been on the receiving end of that!

"Even bad emotions are better than no emotions, in some ways. I think there was some "wanting to make it up to me" when I expressed my pain, as well. We had to be careful not to let it get out of hand. We did not want that to become the new pattern for our sexual relationship."

Good point. I've found my W more reluctant to have SF on a couple of occasions recently, and it may be an unvoiced expression of what you're talking about here. Good idea to be careful.

"It is possible things are not quite as bad as you think right now."

Believe me, I realize this. I have a tendency to internalize hurt and then blow the events that hurt out of proportion with my overactive imagination. I recognize this, just like I realize that I should never make important decisions when I'm upset, and so I post my beautox off and talk to my IC (and SC!). That usually cools me down. Whether I should "stay cool" this way indefinitely is not clear. That's why I need to prepare a plan B, and keep it in my back pocket, like Orchid does.

"It was an early pattern in our recovery. Do you think you might actually be in recovery, and just not able to see it right at the moment?"

Absolutely not. Or at least, that's my best assessment right now. It's based on a firm demarcation between MB definitions of recovery, which do not include continued contact with OM. Since she's still in contact on a regular basis and I am not privvy to the content (and know that some is personal and talks about long-term plans), *I* know that she hasn't truly begun withdrawal from OM, another requirement for her recovery. Can I recover on my own, and let her do whatever? Sure, if I AM on my own. The problem is that most of my upsets in the past 2 months have been because I thought WE were beginning recovery when we weren't. That was disappointing (at best).

Pepper:

"One of the things I realized during my recovery is that I could make up my mind to be a person who has a happy life attitude no matter what the marital outcome became post-affair."

Did you ever have to use plan B? If you were at the stage where most here would be encouraged to employ plan B, did this approach of yours offer a workable substitute? I believe that I can do something like this, but am honestly worried that, if my W NEVER detaches from OM and/or continues to lead her secret life, that my very real need for physical closeness will be unrewarding and cold.

"I am independently happy by choice."

I try to be, too. And when I look back on how I was with people before I got M'd, I wonder if the entire M made this kind of happiness impossible - but then I realize that it isn't that simple.

"If you feel as though your life was robbed by your wandering spouse's choice to have an EMA ... your choices effectively erased ... You still can choose your attitude about these events ... and can choose to live differently. This transitional period of letting go is very sad ..."

Yes to all the above. I wonder if my letting go will enable the A, or another A, to happen again. And this is my struggle. I belive that I can choose my attitude - I'll have to no matter what happens - but I also believe that I can't take the risk of the hurt of this A resuming or another one happening. I'd rather be single.

"but eventually you will feel empowered by your strength and your choices to live by your ethics and your honor. Your dear wife, however, will be choosing to live with dishonor ... and that is a more difficult position in the long run. There are consequences for our decisions just as there are laws of physics .... the cost of being deceitful and dishonorable is not easily seen by the person blinded by infatuation or navigating with their emotions."

Good stuff. I have nothing to add.

"You are on the right path. We will walk with you dear friend."

I thank all my friends for all I've received from this forum.

...wanna come get my W and take her home? She's good at gardening!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "but eventually you will feel empowered by your strength and your choices to live by your ethics and your honor. Your dear wife, however, will be choosing to live with dishonor ... and that is a more difficult position in the long run. <strong>There are consequences for our decisions just as there are laws of physics .... the cost of being deceitful and dishonorable is not easily seen by the person blinded by infatuation or navigating with their emotions.</strong>"
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is amazing to me, that as we've gone through our "normal" life since d-day, there have been many occasions unrelated to the A where we've discussed this very point. In a movie, in a decision my son made, in so many day-to-day things. Very clear; there are always consequences to your decisions, what could be simpler or difficult to understand?

And yet, for some unknown reason, my W thinks that this R of hers with the OM, is the exception to every rule...no matter how true, logical, or clearly demonstrated it may be. Amazing!

SC:

"And yet, for some unknown reason, my W thinks that this R of hers with the OM, is the exception to every rule...no matter how true, logical, or clearly demonstrated it may be. Amazing!"

And that is why it's so hard to tear down the wall between the BS and the WS. We're amazed, and thus unable to formulate a logical argument, because there is none. And so it continues...

2long,
Forgive me but I've never read any of your posts (that I realize) until I read this one beginning last night...so if I'm ignorant of your history in my response please forgive me.

From what I understand your W has had an A with OM for 12 years. He's left his family...to be with her? If so and he's free, why didn't she go with him? That speaks volumes to me...does it to you? What reasons did he give for leaving his family? What was her reaction to this?

Twelve years is an incredibly long time. My H's a lasted almost 2 years before I found out about it and it took another year before he totally came out of the fog. Do you think that asking her to end this abruptly might be more than she can do at this time? This man is totally available to her yet she stays with you. Tells me that you mean more to her than he ever could. I'd run with that if I were you.

When I was reading these posts, I was in agreement that Plan B looked like with was the thing to do...but now I'm no so sure. I think you are wise in taking your time...but would suggest that an appointment with an attorney would be a good thing...just to be safe. Isn't Plan B for protection and not manipulation? (not saying that that is what you're doing) If you do it to wake her up and it doesn't wake her up then what do you do. Tread carefully...

I know the unbelievable pain and aggraviation that you're experiencing. You wonder how two people could be so stupid and you worry that the whole thing is going to drive you to the nut house with no way to return. That fog causes them to say and do horrible things.

Please know that you're in my thoughts and prayers 2long...my heart breaks for you...

Hi 2Long, sorry to bother you with this question when you are dealing with something far more significant, but I was intrigued by your first few messages in this thread and need help....

Very, very short version - WH has been having an "A", if you can call it that, for about 6 months now. She lives in the UK and we live in TX, so the A has primarily been via e-mail, IM and telephone. She came here for a week when I was in Holland on business, but that is all the physical contact they have had. We have had 6 D-days thus far and push came to shove (not literally) yesterday and the day before. Ultimately, WH decided he want to stay in our marriage and we were discussing NC letter to OW. She sort of beat us to the punch - she was calling him on his cell all day yesterday and he would not answer her calls (I know this because we were together, at home, all day). Finally, when she could not get through to him, she called our house (can you believe the nerve?)several times (I know this because of caller ID and the time of the calls). I finally answered at 12:30 this morning. She asked me if I knew where WH was and I told her, "Yes, he is lying here in bed next to me," (that had to gall her!! :-) ) and handed him the phone. She did all the talking, but finally, she asked him whether they were going to continue contact with each other and he said no, she hung up on him. This morning, she had left him an angry message on his cell phone's voice mail, but so far nothing else.

Here's where I need your help.....this may be the end, it may not. In order to put myself at peace, I would like to monitor our home computer and was intrigued by your use of the Norton program. What exact program were you using? How does it work? Where can I buy it? How invisible is it on the computer? (WH is an IT guy w/ an MCSE, but he has been pretty careless up until now, which has allowed me to discover all kinds of things just by using my head a little bit) Can you offer me a little direction? Also, I liked your picture on the MB Photo thread - especially the tennis shoes!!! It says that it was taken at your PhD graduation. In subject is your PhD?

Thanks and best thoughts,

Brit's Brat

2Long ... I never did plan B ... because Mr. Pepper ended his A immediately ... and, he was happy to do so !!! A HUGE difference in our sitch's. His A-relationship had an empty $LB$ by the time D-Day arrived ... it had run it's course. He was relieved and happy to escape his trap.

Honestly ... I think Plan A should be a good and strong for about 3-4 months in most cases ... and then, once you've proven that you are capable of being a good and loving spouse despite having been betrayed ... then it's on to Plan B baby ... and doing Plan B with verve, style, vividness and fortitude!!!!

I do not think you could remain in your marriage status quo ... nor would I advise you to. Plan A your [censored] off ... do it in surprising and fun ways ... then flip over to a B mode and watch the fur fly.

Have some fun with Plan A .... and make yourself proud.

I don't think your WW would like me enough to do my gardening ...... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ July 17, 2002, 12:43 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Brit's Brat:

I wouldn't describe myself as fluent in computers. I get along well with them, and can do image processing quite well. I use Norton Utilities for Mac to optimize the hard drive and fix errors. I'm not as familiar with the PC versioin, but it's probably very similar. It isn't a snooping program per se, but I used it to recover emails that I knew my W had erased in January. This just confirmed my worst fears about how graphic and disgusting the email during their latest A was - I didn't need to see that and it hasn't helped me at all. But it also enabled me to see some of the hotmail messages since March, when she started using it. Most of the recovered files (and there were THOUSANDS of them, text file fragments with a lot of repetition) were just headers, gif windows and the like from hotmail. Very little was actual email and so it took me about 6 hours to find what I did. For PCs, one of the keystroke monitoring programs would be your best bet, but for Macs, I don't know of one that works.

In the end, though, I'm betting that, from what you and your H are saying to each other, that his A is over. You may be happier and more able to function if you just don't worry about snooping. I hate it.

"In subject is your PhD?"
Geology.

Pep:

You know? All you said is right on, but this really hits me most:

"Have some fun with Plan A .... and make yourself proud."

This is what I need, after all, anyway! I need to be happy with myself and what I do in this life. I need to not let my W's choices ruin that happiness. And you know me: If I can't be proud of something, I'd better not even do it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

On SC's thread, he talked about putting love notes in his W's luggage when she left on her trip. I decided to send an email to my W, just to chit-chat and say "yo", telling her how cute the windup toy gift she got me was. I sent it to her regular home email acct, AND to her hotmail acct that she uses to communicate with OMW's H.

SC:

"I think that's a GREAT idea! To email her "love notes" to the account where "OMW's H" (is that right?) emails her. Love it!"

Well, it certainly got her attention. Here's what transpired:

Me: "I keep picturing that little guy going around with his camera, and I get a giggle!...
8^)
Hope you're having a good day today!"

W: "It seemed to be going pretty good till I saw the other address you sent this to, want to tell me anything?"

Me: "No. I saw that address when we were out of state the time before last when you used my computer for your email. I just thought that you might be using it instead of our home ISP when you're at work.

Do you want to tell ME anything?"

That was an hour or so ago. No reply as yet. Am I being paranoid here, or is she really, really tweaked? I'm guessing that she suspects that I snooped on her computer while she was gone, and that's the reason I was in the mood I was in last night when she got back. Well... it is, but the "measured honesty" reason (because the radical honesty reason would probably force plan B when I'm not ready for it) is that she and her coworker had been talking about OMW's H on the way to the airport, about work he is DOING for them. And that, coupled with my W's remark on our way home over the 4th weekend suggesting that OMW's H (without naming) would be working on my W's own research project, indicates to me that my W is still in contact with OMW's H and that she's not telling me about the contact because she's afraid of how I will react.

Well, *I'm* afraid of how I will react, too, but at least I know the emotions that I will experience and that I should not act rashly when I do experience them.

Anybody have any ideas as to how to deal with this when (probably not IF) this comes up this afternoon (either via email or when I get home)? I plan to tell her about the conversations and my concerns thereof, but I don't plan to tell her I saw the email. I guess I'm expecting everything from nothing, in response, to her packing and leaving. It's that hard to read my foggy W these days. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Understanding consequences is very interesting to me. I sometimes look at this issue from a sociology point of view. I wonder if our society (in general) is currently thinking they/we are consequence-proof in many ways. We want to eat our fatty high calorie foods and NOT get obese. We want to have lots of sex partners and NOT get STDs. My patients want to smoke and not experience shortness of breath or develop cancer. I want to drive a monster SUV and not pollute the air while I get lousy gas milage. If I buy nice things why do I have to pay my credit card bill? LOL! And, when criminals are caught ... they don't want to get "punishment" ... they want to be rehabilitated for their "issues". Everything seems to be a "disorder" or a "disease" nowadays. If a drunk is an alcoholic ... he has a disease, and he is treated differently than if he's just making bad choices. If a person shoplifts ... she has a disease "kleptomania" and needs treatment, not punishment. If a priest molests kids ... he's "a sick man" and needs therapy ... but not punishment.

We all need to take responsibility for ourselves .... what a world!

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Pepper:

Trouble with your post is it wouldn't fit on a sign so that I can post it on my office door.

Other than that, it was great! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I just had this temptation, that I quickly stifled, of sending my W a love note and bcc'ing OMW's H (I could use one or all of his 4 active email accounts).

It's fun to dream <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

And ... continuing my rant ... it's NOT that I'm all that big on "punishment" per se ... but consequences are VITAL if a civilization is going to thrive, IMHO.

Affairs are nasty mean things that hurt the people we're supposed to be loving toward. We wonder if the affair in some part resulted from someone suffering from "low self-esteem" .... Well, I ask you, what consequence of an affair raises self-esteem??? How does someone maintain their self esteem while in an affair? -->by lying to themselves. Which again reduces self esteem which creates more need to indulge in self mutilation of the soul.

I think the LOVING thing to do is to allow them to experience the painful consequences of their decisions ... otherwise ... it could be a never ending cycle of lies and self betrayal.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Pepper:

"I think the LOVING thing to do is to allow them to experience the painful consequences of their decisions ... otherwise ... it could be a never ending cycle of lies and self betrayal."

This is absolutely correct. Sounds like plan B if they don't listen, though. I truly would like my W to face these things during my plan A, us grow steadily and happily together so that we can talk objectively about our experiences, but I'm honestly afraid that she'll simply bury the experience and not learn from it, and I'll be afraid for the rest of my life that another A could happen.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Anybody have any ideas as to how to deal with this when (probably not IF) this comes up this afternoon (either via email or when I get home)? I plan to tell her about the conversations and my concerns thereof, but I don't plan to tell her I saw the email. I guess I'm expecting everything from nothing, in response, to her packing and leaving. It's that hard to read my foggy W these days </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Put peppers quote about consequences at the head of a letter

Dear W, I saw this quote today
"quote"

I have been trying to cope with what your relationship with OMW's H has been doing with my emotions. We have had some good times, but the highs have not been as high, the lows are getting lower. I just can't take things as they are now. I suppose the consequences are finally taking place.

I can't live with not knowing. " Is something still going on, or is it over?"
I'm losing sleep, my mind is gone half the time. I'm moody. I feel sick. I can't keep on like this.

I asked to know contents of continued contact. I am getting none. You could be back in the middle, I have no way of knowing, except your word. I would like to trust, but last time I did, it killed me. I am not willing to die again.

I know you can tell something is not right with me. And to be frank, it is not at all. I am looking at all my options, trying to decide what to do. I'll let you know next week ( or whenever.)

Perhaps you have insight for me. Perhaps you can help, and I need all the help I can get right now. Ill be over at the house if you want to talk. I am giving you this letter to avoid argument, and I don't want to cry right now.

2long.

I am just thinking of what I might try. if it were me. If she said anything, just hand it to her and walk away. If she does not, whatever you think. Perhaps leave things until after C session. If she e-mails, you could mail it back.

As always, these are just ideas, would need to be highly modified for you.

SS

SS:

Thanks for the suggestion.

The truth? I'm scared $hitless of approaching my W with that kind of letter right now.

However, I plan to consider it, parts of it at least, and try to be prepared to respond if she does have something to say about the email today.

I feel like a chicken. But I feel like I might just be a paranoid chicken, and that many of my concerns are baseless and I should keep them to myself. But some are clearly not, like continued contact. However, I shouldn't be confrontive, particularly if my W believes she is trying to end the R "in her own way" and simply needs to find out for herself that it won't work. Like, the OMW's H is bound to say something stupid again sometime anyway. I keep hoping he will and that she'll recognize it (and him) for what it is, then put it into perspective and realize how badly he's treated her all these years.

In many ways, my W is as much closed-up as I have been for these past 12 years. So much so that it's harder for me than usual to break through, or to even understand what she's thinking or saying. And she's had (possibly still having?) an A, and isn't willing to face the consequences of that. A lot to overcome in order to be open and honest with me. I could easily say the wrong things (I often do) and screw up what progress I've made to date. I'm getting better at controlling myself when I'm delivered a bombshell like the other night. And so I think I need to continue to take advantage of the fact that my W is HOME with ME (because she CHOOSES to be), and so I have a tremendous advantage over OMW's H, who's got to stay where he is to avoid losing his job (took him several years to get it, and he CAN'T afford to lose it) and his family (my W says he cares very much for his kids, but paints his W as an idiot that's quick to anger). At the moment, he can only entice my W into a remote R, via email (and possible occasional visits when one of them is traveling), and at best an occasional in-person working R on her project sometime down the line. Sure, NEITHER of those options are acceptable to me, but the relative lack of potential physical contact is slightly more palatable than the continued email contact (since I know it's going on anyway). I dunno, maybe I'm just being played, maybe not. I really don't think she's hurting me deliberately now, but she really doesn't understand the depth of the hurt over even simple work-related contact anyway.

I can hope.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Destroy the entire universe with a single shout. Trust me, I've been on the receiving end of that!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So? Get Kryptonite locks.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ...I am a conflict avoider by birth... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah... we have something else in common, except I learned mine somewhere in childhood. I wonder if one of your motivations for being a conflict avoider is the same as one of mine: inability to constructively handle anger. The pain I have caused others in the times I have not avoided conflict was one of the things I really wanted to avoid. I used to think when I read marriage related articles and books that the stuff they said about learning to handle anger and conflict constructively was something I could gloss over, because "we didn't have conflict". I now see it was my inability to do conflict well that was the primary reason that I avoided it. I was more afraid of hurting others than of being hurt (not that being hurt was an attractive option...) Anyway, one of my main tasks in recovery is learning how to do conflict constructively. As Gary Smalley says: "Conflict is the doorway to intimacy." Unless you LB of course, in which case it is the doorway to the deterioration of your relationship.

Secondly, conflict-avoiders like us are pretty good at filling our spouses' EN's, even if we are as clueless about it as I was. Separation is going to be VERY hard on her, whichever way you go. If you do a Plan B, do a good one. Don't waffle, stick to your boundaries. If you don't, she will just learn that you are not a man of your word, and can be pushed around. Don't let that happen.