<small>[ July 17, 2002, 06:49 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

I think you have many valid points for not going for the "big one."

I believe it's better that you brought them out than if we had done so.

She is still at home. She does think she is working on things. She may even really think it is over and laugh at OMW's H pathetic efforts at getting her back. However the damage to you is real. You could make it ( conversation or letter) a lot softer and ask for help. Either verbal or letter or e-mail. ( do I say that a lot? )

Remember - for her to ask what she did, she is thinking.......

When W and I were having early relationship talks, I would sometimes take a long time to answer her. I am not a quick wit. She would ask what was going on. I would tell her I wanted to say something just right, not understate my feelings, but not make her angry. She understood, still does. I am careful what I say to the point of leaving it a day if I have to. Be careful, she knows something is up. Don't say it wrong.

I wonder if she will have a new hotmail account tomorrow. There are lots of ways she could go. I do think you need to find a way to communicate your feelings about what is going on in your heart. I really don't think it's fair to hold them until plan B. Perhaps you are doing it right along and I just haven't gotten that from your posts.

My wife is a lot like your's and P's. We had a really good experiance this morning and before leaving for work, I started to ask her a question about it. She held her finger to my lips in the "sush" sign and said, "just enjoy it, don't try and analize it." You see, relationship things are really supposed to take care of themselves. If you love her, you can read her mind, and you know everything about her. Sigh.

I think you are right, if you don't know for sure how bad it is, pretend it is OK and work for continued improvement.
(I'm not tryint to be funny here, that's what we do, really.)

I believe you can do it, go 2long.

SS

<small>[ July 17, 2002, 05:40 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

john39:

"I wonder if one of your motivations for being a conflict avoider is the same as one of mine: inability to constructively handle anger."

In my case it's the fact that I tend to lose an argument with my W, every time. She can argue circles around me. While I'm trying to come up with a comeback or an argument of my own, she's moved on rapidly to the 3rd thought downrange. It's been very frustrating. I just clam up and avoid conflict.

"I used to think when I read marriage related articles and books that the stuff they said about learning to handle anger and conflict constructively was something I could gloss over, because "we didn't have conflict". I now see it was my inability to do conflict well that was the primary reason that I avoided it."

And, in my own way, this is exactly why I avoid it.

"I was more afraid of hurting others than of being hurt (not that being hurt was an attractive option...)"

No, it's not an attractive option. In my case, though, I actually am more afraid of being hurt than hurting, an equally unattractive option.

"Anyway, one of my main tasks in recovery is learning how to do conflict constructively. As Gary Smalley says: "Conflict is the doorway to intimacy." Unless you LB of course, in which case it is the doorway to the deterioration of your relationship."

I agree.

"Secondly, conflict-avoiders like us are pretty good at filling our spouses' EN's, even if we are as clueless about it as I was."

I *think* I agree with this in my case, but my W certainly hasn't acknowledged it, much.

"Separation is going to be VERY hard on her, whichever way you go. If you do a Plan B, do a good one. Don't waffle, stick to your boundaries. If you don't, she will just learn that you are not a man of your word, and can be pushed around. Don't let that happen."

That's the way I feel now, with this continued, secret contact. I hope that I can tell her why I was moody yesterday and didn't sleep the night before (about the conversations, that is), so that we can discuss the issue of telling me about contact again.

Thanks, John. This has been very helpful.

I think I'm going by the bookstore for some more reading material, on my way home this afternoon.

Well, SS:

Her reply to my email was simply

"No just seemed funny though."

Seems to me that she IS suspicious that I've read her email. It doesn't give me much of a handle to continue the conversation, though.

Sigh. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

She might drop it, but if she asks point blank if you have been reading her mail, what are you going to say?
Yes would do damage to her, No to you.

You may ought to look at it again. I wish I had a good solution, but don't. ( none of us do, that's the problem, isn't it.)

Sigh, indeed.

SS

john39:

"I wonder if one of your motivations for being a conflict avoider is the same as one of mine: inability to constructively handle anger."

In my case it's the fact that I tend to lose an argument with my W, every time. She can argue circles around me. While I'm trying to come up with a comeback or an argument of my own, she's moved on rapidly to the 3rd thought downrange. It's been very frustrating. I just clam up and avoid conflict.

"I used to think when I read marriage related articles and books that the stuff they said about learning to handle anger and conflict constructively was something I could gloss over, because "we didn't have conflict". I now see it was my inability to do conflict well that was the primary reason that I avoided it."

And, in my own way, this is exactly why I avoid it.

"I was more afraid of hurting others than of being hurt (not that being hurt was an attractive option...)"

No, it's not an attractive option. In my case, though, I actually am more afraid of being hurt than hurting, an equally unattractive option.

"Anyway, one of my main tasks in recovery is learning how to do conflict constructively. As Gary Smalley says: "Conflict is the doorway to intimacy." Unless you LB of course, in which case it is the doorway to the deterioration of your relationship."

I agree.

"Secondly, conflict-avoiders like us are pretty good at filling our spouses' EN's, even if we are as clueless about it as I was."

I *think* I agree with this in my case, but my W certainly hasn't acknowledged it, much.

"Separation is going to be VERY hard on her, whichever way you go. If you do a Plan B, do a good one. Don't waffle, stick to your boundaries. If you don't, she will just learn that you are not a man of your word, and can be pushed around. Don't let that happen."

That's the way I feel now, with this continued, secret contact. I hope that I can tell her why I was moody yesterday and didn't sleep the night before (about the conversations, that is), so that we can discuss the issue of telling me about contact again.

Thanks, John. This has been very helpful.

I think I'm going by the bookstore for some more reading material, on my way home this afternoon.

To lighten this up (and lift up my spirits a bit) and to show you guys just what a klutz I can be on my verbal feet (unlike the klutz I am online <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ), let me tell you all a joke I heard in HS. I feel like this stable hand many times. I get good advice about what I should say or do, and then I say something stupid anyway.

A stable hand in the old west is cleaning horse$hit from the stalls in a livery stable one day, when this beautiful young gal rides in and says "I'm going to be in town for a week, and would like you to take care of my horse for me." The stable hand, taken aback at her beauty says "Sure!" He takes the horse, she leaves the livery stable, and he starts thinking to himself:

Hm... I've got to figure out a way to make love to that girl! How, though? I've got to come up with a plan. I know! I'll paint her horse's legs green. She'll come into the stable and she'll ask 'Why did you paint my horse's legs green? Won't that scare him?' and I'll reply 'I don't know, but we can go for a ride and find out!' Then, we'll go for a ride, it'll get hot, I'll pull out this bottle of whine, get her drunk, and make love to her!

A couple days go by and he says to himself "I'd better go over that plan just one more time!
I'll paint her horse's legs green. She'll come into the stable and she'll ask 'Why did you paint my horse's legs green? Won't that scare him?' and I'll reply 'I don't know, but we can go for a ride and find out!' Then, we'll go for a ride, it'll get hot, I'll pull out this bottle of whine, get her drunk, and make love to her!

Two more days go by and he says to himself "I'd better go over that plan just one more time! I'll paint her horse's legs green. She'll come into the stable and she'll ask 'Why did you paint my horse's legs green? Won't that scare him?' and I'll reply 'I don't know, but we can go for a ride and find out!' Then, we'll go for a ride, it'll get hot, I'll pull out this bottle of whine, get her drunk, and make love to her!

Then, on the day of her return, he paints the horse's legs green. He says "Okay, I've got the horse's legs painted green. She'll come into the stable and she'll ask 'Why did you paint my horse's legs green? Won't that scare him?' and I'll reply 'I don't know, but we can go for a ride and find out!' Then, we'll go for a ride, it'll get hot, I'll pull out this bottle of whine, get her drunk, and make love to her!

"Uh oh! Here she comes!"

The woman walks into the stable, looks quizzically at the horse and says "Why did you paint my horse's legs green? Won't that scare him?"

The stable hand nervously replies "I don't know, let's f***!"

Uh, 2long, you sound tired. Get some sleep tonight? Please? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Anybody have any ideas as to how to deal with this when (probably not IF) this comes up this afternoon (either via email or when I get home)? I plan to tell her about the conversations and my concerns thereof, but I don't plan to tell her I saw the email. I guess I'm expecting everything from nothing, in response, to her packing and leaving. It's that hard to read my foggy W these days.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why would you not tell her that since this was the email the OMW's H used in the past, that you wanted to send it there. To remind her that you love her, and so that she'd start associating that email with you, not him.

Maybe you should NOT send it to the other one as well, that way she will associate that email account with your "love notes" and perhaps have to "think" about what she's doing with the OMW's H...

LOL on the joke....

Now, the fact that she is asking in a round about way if you know something is very telling. It points to her leaving the pc there just so you WOULD check it. Her motivations may be that she wanted to see if you trust her now, or maybe she wanted to let you know he is still on the scene....or, she may have even wanted to see if she can trust YOU <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> .

So I personally would not give her the satisfaction of letting her know you did snoop, and let her wonder about things for a change.

If at all possible, I would not discuss this with her until you are well rested. You are tired, tell her so and go to bed. You are not in a strong position because of fatigue, and she will run rings around you, and you won't find anything out.

By the way, is she does ask if you snooped, answer with "Why would you ask that? Are you worried?" She will drop it, be sure.

Love and light,

Jacky

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>Understanding consequences is very interesting to me. I sometimes look at this issue from a sociology point of view. I wonder if our society (in general) is currently thinking they/we are consequence-proof in many ways. We want to eat our fatty high calorie foods and NOT get obese. We want to have lots of sex partners and NOT get STDs. My patients want to smoke and not experience shortness of breath or develop cancer. I want to drive a monster SUV and not pollute the air while I get lousy gas milage. If I buy nice things why do I have to pay my credit card bill? LOL! And, when criminals are caught ... they don't want to get "punishment" ... they want to be rehabilitated for their "issues". Everything seems to be a "disorder" or a "disease" nowadays. If a drunk is an alcoholic ... he has a disease, and he is treated differently than if he's just making bad choices. If a person shoplifts ... she has a disease "kleptomania" and needs treatment, not punishment. If a priest molests kids ... he's "a sick man" and needs therapy ... but not punishment.

We all need to take responsibility for ourselves .... what a world!

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm glad you posted this Pep; I feel that we have concentrated SO much on our "rights", for SO long, that we've lost sight of the fact that with rights also come responsibilities.

SS:

Yes, I guess I am tired. Tired of the process, mostly.

I talked to my W on the phone just now, about conversations with the contractor and architect about the house. She said she got "hysterical" when she saw that I'd used that address. I told her I'd seen it when she'd used my computer, and that I certainly didn't want to upset her.

She's just as paranoid about this stuff as I am, I guess. Arguably, she's got more reason to be than I do, but I don't think that matters with regard to getting closer to recovery. I need her to feel safe in confiding in me, NOT OMW's H!! So, I'm on thin ice still. So is she.

She's clearly still unsure of how I'll react to things, and is afraid of me hurting her more than I already "do." I tried to assure her that I have no desire to cause any more hurt, and that I love her very much. We ended the conversation on a pleasant note (though she still won't say ILY to me). Oh well. Small steps.

Incidentally, her username is rather sad, an abbreviation for something that indicates she has deviant social behavior (so as not to be giving hints as to what it is). I said that it's a very sad name, and she said that's what everybody thinks she is. I said that I don't, and I want very much to try to convince her otherwise, so that she'll consider changing that name. MAN. I really had no idea that she was being so HARD on herself, internally. I thought the choice of username was simple sarcasm. Instead, hearing this tells me that there's a lot more going on in her head that I haven't been aware of. In a way, it's a bit of a relief to hear that she's chosen that name as something of a "punishment" for failing to be the kind of person she was, because it's a lot better than if she had chosen it because she's PROUD of being "amoral." Make any sense?

Anyway, I need to remember that I'm NOT the injured party, here. I know. We all know that. But I think I need to keep reminding myself of that fact. I love my W because I know what kind of human being she is capable of being. I want her to love herself because she can restore herself to her "original" high morality. I apologize to her, to our family, and to anyone that knows her for my part in allowing our M to sour to the point that she felt she had only this road to follow. She's demeaned herself unfairly.

You know?

If I were to ever send anything to OMW's H, or possibly also to OMW, it would be some permutation of the last part of my post above.

Her remark to me on the phone actually surprised me. I didn't expect that's why she chose that name. It makes sense though, like when she told me a few months ago that she had quit being a Girl Scout troop leader because she felt bad because she'd started her first A (our D and several of her friends were in her troop).

I think this surprise was a revelation to me. An opportunity to find a chink in that thick ice cover. I'm going to need some serious coaching (and so I'm leaving work very soon so I can run by the bookstore and add to my M-saving literature!)

Any thoughts? All would be appreciated.

So... one of the consequences of her A your WW has already experienced is this ... she felt she could no longer be a Girl Scout leader .... that is a very sad consequence for any mother to face. Not feeling like she was/is a "good enough" enough woman to call herself a leader of girls.

Think about the consequences this brought to her self esteem.

How sad. I wish I could help her.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

SC:

"Why would you not tell her that since this was the email the OMW's H used in the past, that you wanted to send it there. To remind her that you love her, and so that she'd start associating that email with you, not him.
Maybe you should NOT send it to the other one as well, that way she will associate that email account with your "love notes" and perhaps have to "think" about what she's doing with the OMW's H..."

I wish that something like this would work. I don't think anything will work right now. But then, Hope would probably jump in here and say "see! this is what's supposed to happen!" Sorry, H4F, for putting words into your mouth, and for really not doing that good a job of it, but all you've said all along about her depth of fog (very much suffering from "Corneal Rectumitis" right now) appears to be absolutely true - either that or we really should not have ever gotten M'd and we should seek an amicable DV as soon as possible.

Anyway, SC, we talked about that email "incident" today. My W was freaking out at work when she saw it, her friend had to help calm her down, and then they spent some time trying to decide whether to pretend she didn't see that address, or respond like she eventually did. So, what about that address? Well, she said she opened the account specifically for talking to Rat Meat, because she can't be worried about me freaking out over the "nothing" content of that message in March (SC, I should email you a copy of that and let YOU tell me if I overreacted or not!). So that's why she opened the account for Rat Meat Convo. And, oh yeah, I'm supposed to simply "trust her" that it's strictly work related and she has the right to have privacy, blah blah blah... So, NO GROWTH there.

I'm going to add that, perhaps it would be effective ONCE, to send her a love note to that address, but after that I'll bet she'll create a new account. If she's not done that already.

I can't live like this.

<small>[ July 17, 2002, 11:15 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

Hi 2Long

<strong>Pointed out the recent LB arguments as if NOTHING I'd done up to that point mattered at all. I did get one compliment, though, about working on the house this past weekend. She enjoyed working with me on it. No pressures. It actually was relaxing, but I wouldn't mind some good, growey M discussions once and a while. Guess I won't get that so long as she has this anti-M attitude, which my IC worries may be permanent. My W complained about my remark during one of the arguments about "not wanting to live in a loveless M." She feels it's hopeless, even though that remark was partly made when I felt pretty desparate about the argument. I should rephrase that to say "I don't want to live in a pessimistic M." That's what we have, at best. It is very tiring. It's so easy to look at the good side of things, and yet my W won't.</strong>

<strong> Sadly, my grade for my plan A is probably a D to my W. </strong>

Hmm- I think it is common for the WS not to acknowledge/deny the changes seen in Plan A. For your wife, it can almost be a way of justifying the continued contact. But the most important thing is not the grade your WW gives your Plan A. (Yes I know Steve Harley sometimes says otherwise-but he also says Plan A may not be successful because the WS won't let you fill their EN's- even if you're doing a great attempt- they want it from the affair partner). The important thing is the grade you would give your Plan A. I think if you believe that you have truly done your best, if you know you have attempted to meet your wife's EN's to the best of your ability, if you have set goals for creating a wonderful marriage, if you have reiterated your commitment to your WW despite her destructive actions re the A- well, what more can you do? She has to be on board with healing the marriage, willing to follow a recovery plan. Plan A and Plan B are what is supposed to set the stage for that to happen- but it doesn't always work. Still, you have the rest of your life to live, and if your wife doesn't want to create a close & loving M with you- there is I am sure a woman out there who would.

Where are you at in your M? Does your wife show any remorse for the A? Yes, I know she is in denial re continued contact with Rat Meat. Does she show concern for your feelings, your pain? Is she affectionate? Does she say I love you? (oops, just saw in your post that she doesn't? Even when you say it to her? No ILY back?)Does she talk about the future together? Does she express that she made the right decision to stay? Does she express any positive feelings about you as a person?

<strong>I wouldn't even mind skipping B and going to D sometimes. I hope I come back up with the rollercoaster soon, because this pulls a good vacuum.</strong>

I think you have to give B a chance. If your wife commits to recovery she will be able to win your love back. As long as you haven't let her irrevocably destroy your love.

<strong>LB of the BS, right? I don't think my W thinks her A as it stands now (which she doesn't think is an A at all) has anything to do with ME, and so shouldn't bother me either. Well, $hit. It sure did, and sure still does affect me in a very deleterious manner.</strong>

The A is the worst lovebuster the WS can do to the BS. So when I see BSs freaking over possibly lovebusting their WS by standing up for themselves I laugh. I don't think Plan A means being a doormat. And I don't think Plan A is meant to go on for too long or it becomes enabling to the WS. I think Harley really pairs Plan A and B because often as he says Plan A is not enough to convince and help the WS to break the addiction. I think your W is pretty severely addicted because this thing has been going on for 12 years. That said, I think amhurt and some others do make some points for not going into Plan B. It's tricky and really depends on you. I think it is important to consider the whole picture- what's happening between OMW's H and your W, as well as what is happening between you and W.

<strong>I believe this, but I also believe that my W is so pig-headed that I will very likely lose all my remaining love for her during plan B even if I went to it NOW. And I'm really probably not quite ready to go there now. It's sad, but it may be that this M is one of those where the A went on for so long, and the EN that was probably most important to my W - admiration and collaboration of her work on a VERY focused area of study that I can't ever contribute at the same level as OM - that there may be no saving it after 12 years. It's going to take work, and I see no sign that my W thinks she needs to do the kind of work that it will take. Hence, I'll likely be long gone emotionally by the time either of us realizes what's been lost irrevocably. </strong>

I don't know- the no contact might be a relief. It seems like the stuff that hurts most is the continued contact and continued revealing of affair evidence, coupled with the lack of remorse and lack of commitment to put alot of effort into healing.As well as the lack of consideration for your feelings of pain. Yes you would have to psych yourself up and be strong. But remember, your wife is still in the A. If she is receiving secret e-mails from an affair partner and that person is making suggestive comments- well, even if there is nothing really active right now there is still an inappropriate relationship going on. And don't be so afraid re her reaction regarding your snooping. Her life should be an open book to you. Her outside relationships should be open to you as well. (And vice versa). That is the gold standard for a marriage- don't let her babble as Orchid would say convince you otherwise. The people who babble on about their right to privacy are usually the ones with something to hide.

How about saying to W-
1) why did you feel hysterical when I referenced your hotmail account? What's going on?
2) how would you feel about closing your hotmail account? It's a trigger for me because I know you used it for your communications when you were having the affair. (My H literally threw away the cell phone he had used to call OW with- nothing wrong with it and he replaced it with the same model- but he felt the phone was tainted and a bad memory.)
3) Let's open a new hotmail account for our own private love communications.
4) Yes OM can communicate with your W on her work computer but people tend to be more restricted on what they can e-mail in the worklace since the e-mail can be monitored by the employer.

The other thing is- plenty of people are passionate about their work and have coworkers with whom they share an interest in a narrow and specific topic. It doesn't mean they fall in love with these people. There is alot more to life. I assume perhaps wrongly that your wife has other interests that you can share in. You have kids together, a home together, a life together.

Question- am I right in believing that the A is theoretically over although your W believes she can have continued "professional" contact? Didn't Rat Meat leave his wife? What is the status of his marriage? Does he want your wife to leave you and go to him?
Have you ever met him?

Anyway G2G, but I do hope your wife "gets it" soon. But she will probably need Plan B don't you think?

<small>[ July 18, 2002, 09:54 PM: Message edited by: espoir ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SC:

Well, before I go and say what I was going to say, I should say: My W just came out of the bedroom to ask me to get some photos out of the car that she saved from work. All "upbeat" and that.

Now, what I was going to tell you. I'll respond to your post here, then try to lure you and others on over to 2longs 2rmoil, so that I can accumulate some posts and maybe win this oh-so-important competition!

SC: "Well, it is interesting that she'd have a username that somehow "punishes" her for not being what she thinks she should be,"

We talked about this (among a BUNCH of other things) while the kids went to rent movies from Lackluster Video and pick up some foodies from Taco Hell. Well, she doesn't think it's punishment. She thinks that "deviant" is just ouside the norm, which I suppose it is, but then she said that it's "unnaceptable" and to most people what she does is. Almost pridefully said that. I can't fix that.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is too weird...don't even know what to say.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"AND to use that particular email with the OM...I don't know, that's beyond my powers of analysis! Maybe some of the very insightful ladies has an interpretation (ILuv, Orchid, Faith, Pepperoni, Pizza...)"

I could use some of that kind of sage advice/interpretation here, but my W is so stubborn that she'll probably fly off the handle at any attempt to understand her. In other words, my W is not just a "won't take NO for an answer" kind of personality, she won't even take YES for an answer. She's right or there's no reason for a conversation.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, to me it's more about you better understanding her than of her necessarily accepting or even hearing the interpretation. I think we're all a little sensitive to hearing what one of our behaviors indicates when interpreted....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"And do not over-compensate here; you DID play a part in this, but you are ALSO the more injured party; I know you and I both bend over backwards to place as little blame on our Ws as we can, and to accept perhaps more blame ourselves than we should, with a somewhat misplaced sense of honor or sacrifice, or something! But let's not lose sight of the fact that we did not have the A, and we are here making herculean efforts to save our W's from themselves primarily, and that we've worked pretty hard at it for pretty long!"

Well, all that is correct, but it wins absolutely no points whatsoever with my W. For that matter, neither does "Yes".</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, this is NOT about your W or if she'll give you points; It's about YOU. It's about you feeling better and more secure about yourself and what you've done, and are doing. Of seeing that you can be all you have shown you can be under some of the most difficult and emotionally trying circumstances any human being could face. And THAT, my friend, is what it's about. That man, who is doing all of this, who has shown such determination and endurance is a very worthy and valuable individual, whether your W sees it right now or not. Remember that!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"So pats on the back all around, hugs and kisses (2L you need to shave, man!) and all that stuff!"

I ain't shavin' for you, SC! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Aw, I thought maybe....Hey, R U sure your W likes that beard? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

espoir:

"How about saying to W-
1) why did you feel hysterical when I referenced your hotmail account? What's going on?"

I did ask her that when I got home. See above. As to what's going on, it's correspondence, personal and work-related, and it's none of my business.

"2) how would you feel about closing your hotmail account? It's a trigger for me because I know you used it for your communications when you were having the affair. (My H literally threw away the cell phone he had used to call OW with- nothing wrong with it and he replaced it with the same model- but he felt the phone was tainted and a bad memory.)"

My W wouldn't close the account. Too bad 2long.

"3) Let's open a new hotmail account for our own private love communications."

Interesting idea, but it won't work. I may try SC's suggestion and to hell if she decides to open a NEW account. Let her explain to Rat Meat why she needs to do that "Oh, Rat Meat, dearest [censored], I had to open a new account because my H just told me he loves me and that's annoying." SHEEZ!

"4) Yes OM can communicate with your W on her work computer but people tend to be more restricted on what they can e-mail in the worklace since the e-mail can be monitored by the employer."

Her company is probably like this, but she would use her laptop plugged into the phone. And besides, even the latest one I saw, though a bit personal certainly from MY viewpoint, was about her work, or at least that subject.

"The other thing is- plenty of people are passionate about their work and have coworkers with whom they share an interest in a narrow and specific topic. It doesn't mean they fall in love with these people. There is alot more to life."

That's for sure, and something I point out when I can without us LBing each other.

"I assume perhaps wrongly that your wife has other interests that you can share in. You have kids together, a home together, a life together."

Yes, indeed. We do a LOT together. And that's why, in spite of my flaws (not unique, I know now), that I was so shocked to find out what had been going on all these years.

"Question- am I right in believing that the A is theoretically over although your W believes she can have continued "professional" contact?"

Essentially, this is correct. But her property out of state is another issue. It's something she wants to develop long term (like the next 20 years or so), and she's already talking to Rat Meat about working on it with her. I won't be there if that happens. Period.

"Didn't Rat Meat leave his wife? What is the status of his marriage?"

She threw him out when she found out about their latest A (she found out several years ago about the first one, and made him move to NM and promise not to see my W again. I wish she'd told me.

"Does he want your wife to leave you and go to him?"

I think so, but he's hanging back, just a bit, so that he can let her think that she's making the choice on her own. [censored]. Predator. My IC thinks that he either deliberately or subconsciously sabotaged his own M back in May, he was so careless.

"Have you ever met him?"

I met him about 10 or 12 years ago at a party with his W and their first baby. I don't remember what he looks like anymore. I vaguely remember his W. She's cute, petite, and dressed rather provocatively. She works in the same field I do but in industry, which is ironic.

"Anyway G2G, but I do hope your wife "gets it" soon."

I do not believe, for one minute, that she will. But thanks.

"But she will probably need Plan B don't you think?"

I do think. I think she'll initially think all this plan A/B "method" stuff is completely ridiculous and stupid. Only time will tell, though. The alternative, which we talked about (very matter of factly, thanks to me!) because she kept saying anti-M nonsense, is an amicable DV. She did say that she hoped that we could at least get the house finished first, which could take a year or two, but I said that I didn't see any reason to wait if that's what we decide we want to do. It had a SMALL, a VERY SMALL impression on her, but just like poking the Pillsbury Doughboy in the stomach with your finger, the dent quickly repaired itself.

Pepper:

"So... one of the consequences of her A your WW has already experienced is this ... she felt she could no longer be a Girl Scout leader .... that is a very sad consequence for any mother to face. Not feeling like she was/is a "good enough" enough woman to call herself a leader of girls."

It's total heviosity, really. I remember when she told me this. Must have been back in March or so. She cried and I held her tight. My God, how the hell do things get this crazy, Pepper???? My W was a wonderful Girl Scout Troop leader! Incidentally, I was a member of the Girl Scout Council, and participated in many of their activities, including a weekend camping trip just for the counselors. We had some wonderful times. How the hell could our M have been so bad that she'd choose to have an A??? I don't get it.

"Think about the consequences this brought to her self esteem."

Very heavy $hit, indeed.

"How sad. I wish I could help her."

I wish I could, too. I wish SOMEBODY could. I don't think even she can right now. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

SC:

"Again, this is NOT about your W or if she'll give you points; It's about YOU. It's about you feeling better and more secure about yourself and what you've done, and are doing."

I know this. I really do. It's just falling on completely deaf ears right now. Actually, they're not deaf, they're determined to tear me down. I'll tell you something that's very embarrassing, but very telling at the same time (and I really do need help in this area). Last night when we went to bed, my W was exhausted, I was exhausted (remember, only 1hr of sleep the night before), but I was HORNY as all get out. REALLY GONE, I mean. Well, I knew she wasn't interested, but I tried to get her interested. She laughed about some things I said about SF that encouraged me somewhat. But then I tried to get her to participate. She wouldn't, so I "took care of business" alone. Tonight, she brought that up as very inconsiderate of me, and very hurtful to her. Okay, I can accept that it was wrong of me, but I didn't even "use" her. I'm very embarrassed talking about this here, but it's a HUGE issue for her, and she asked me to ask my IC why I can't leave her alone when she says she's not interested. It came across as a felonious act on my part. I feel terrible.

"Of seeing that you can be all you have shown you can be under some of the most difficult and emotionally trying circumstances any human being could face."

Boy, don't I know it. But my efforts are completly unappreciated. Insulted, in fact.

"And THAT, my friend, is what it's about. That man, who is doing all of this, who has shown such determination and endurance is a very worthy and valuable individual, whether your W sees it right now or not. Remember that!"

Thanks, SC. I'll do my best to keep my chin up. There's no reasonable alternative, after all. Despair is NOT a reasonable alternative. My family depends on me.