Sadly, speaking from EXPERIENCE <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> , WD can last a while... but if you've been preparing mentally, it doesn't have to be all that long. For me after starting Plan B, it kind of went like this:

Day 1-4 - really good, actually, I was too busy getting stuff together to worry much, plus the general relief of finally executing my Plan; plus the freedom from the A

Day 5-13 - really bad, felt compelled to contact, etc.

Day 14 on - daily improvements; small contacts would mean for small set-backs.

(These timeframes are approximate... was about 2 weeks for me.)

My recent contact has set me back, I will admit. But I don't think it's quite as bad as the first time.

It really does depend a lot on you, and how your coping skills are.

<small>[ July 22, 2002, 07:50 PM: Message edited by: J.R. ]</small>

J.R.

Longer than I'd hoped, regardless.

I just want this to be over and for my W to realize that all she has to do is agree to NC so that we can start working on OUR problems. That's all I want. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>.....
W: So you ask me to share my thought with you and so I do and all they seem to do is hurt you. Yes I'm very torn, each of you have wonderful things to give...

.................

W: I hate that I would ever have to choose.

2long: There is absolutely no question that you do have to choose. Choose carefully, here, and make your decision soon. Would you choose to leave your family to be with a man that has cheated with you on his family throughout MOST of his own marriage? It would never work out, and you know it. .......... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2Long,
The above is a partial quote of your previous post. Here's my 2 cents.

My H gave the same line about having to choose. I told him, well you did push both the OW and myself to decide things for you and when we did you still threw then back so here goes.

You no longer have a choice. Isn't that great? The choice is now being made for you. Isn't that what you want? Good.

Left that for a while and then he came crawlin back to ask why.

Then I let him have it. The reason why you no longer have a choice is because I have taken myself out of your stupid A game. You and the OW deserve each other. I hope your 2 faces smash together. As long as mine is no wheres near the 2 of you will be fine with me. Whether you make a future with that tramp or not is no longer my concern. You can fall on your face for all I care, I have just decided that my priorities are now centered on our family and we choose to no longer worry about you and your foolishness.

Oooohh.. that piece of reality talking really woke him up. The OW was now the one pleading and I was backing off big time. This set the OW to fill all his needs. I took steps to financially separate our accounts. I took steps to start separation. I was primed and ready to go and then POP! Now you ready for this?

He called crying from the OWs house begging to come home and the OW in the background telling me to take him back. What a turnaround.

Yet that in itself did not move me. I told him to stay there longer and did not wish to have him back just like that. He threatened that he might even like it there, so I told him to stay. Then he changed his tune again. I still told him to stay. He persisted. He was then informed that
to come back required he show value. No longer did we wish him back. If he wanted back he must earn the privilege to return to the family. Frankly we were tired of his shingnagins. Of course the A actually continued for a while after this but eventually it died off to the point where he said he does not even miss her. Whether that is true or not is still in the proving stage.

The point to my saga is to help you see what some of us have to do. Some of us have to take steps forward. Not just in word but in deed. Some more than others but steps forward nonetheless.

take care,
L.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>
W: I agree you do need time, time to think about what love is, it is not owning , it is not having, it is sharing, it is caring, it is looking past the faults because we all have them, and trying to help make each other be better, each life a little easier, happier, kinder it is excepting each other for what we are, and the moments shared, they do not fade or end, but do change...

2long: I do know what love is. I love YOU. I want to share everything about me with you, and I want you to share your innermost feelings and ambitions with me. All the good stuff, all the bad stuff, ALL OF IT. I want to support you morally and financially in your endeavors with your property. I want us to nurture and care for each other and help each other grow intellectually, just like we promised each other 26 years ago. I cannot and will not do that any longer if I have to "share" you with Rat Meat.

W: Of late the moments together are almost all filled with pain and hurt, and fear not loving.

2long: And why is this? Because you love two people at the same time. And you're continuing to lie by omission about what transpires between you and Rat Meat even now. Don't believe you can wean yourself away from being emotionally attached to him. It won't work.

W: So you ask me to share my thought with you and so I do and all they seem to do is hurt you. Yes I'm very torn, each of you have wonderful things to give...

2long: And Rat Meat has given himself to OMW and his two sons, and he needs to GET BACK to his family, exclusively and WITHOUT YOU. Have either of you thought about how the breakup of his family due to your affairs has affected them? I know how horrible this feels EVERY DAY, and yet you have chosen to continue this relationship and are about to break up OUR family too in the process. Have you thought about how you plan to explain your relationship with Rat Meat to our son?? You will devastate him. I can assure you of this because I know what it feels like right now. Our son is at a very impressionable age. Do you want him to grow up believing that he can be dishonest and cheat in his own relationships just because he becomes attracted to someone else?

W: I hate that I would ever have to choose.

2long: There is absolutely no question that you do have to choose. Choose carefully, here, and make your decision soon. Would you choose to leave your family to be with a man that has cheated with you on his family throughout MOST of his own marriage? It would never work out, and you know it. To me, this man is nothing but a liar and a cheat. Even when OMW found out about your first affair and made them move to NM, he chose to have another affair with you. He has no integrity. I have no respect for him as an individual, and certainly not as a man. I have no desire to know him or ever see him. He is worse than a nobody to me. Why? Because you invited him to invade our relationship without my knowledge and certainly without my consent. The quality of our marriage in the past 12 years isn't so much due to our inability to communicate, it's because your emotions were focused elsewhere and so you were incapable of being truly intimate in every sense of the word during that time. Even between your affairs, you had to keep part of your life secret from me. You had to be on your guard, so as not to reveal anything that might show just what you and Rat Meat had done to your families. I will have nothing to do with him for the rest of my life, and you had better not either.

On the other hand, I have a 28-year history of memories with you, and two beautiful kids. And so, in spite of the damage you have done to our relationship by having an these affairs with Rat Meat, I have a very strong desire to learn what it was that caused us to grow apart 12 years ago, to the point that you felt you had no alternative than to have an affair with Rat Meat. We can learn from our past mistakes, but only if we stop committing them and focus on US and our family, excluding all others.

W: Doen't it mean anything that I keep trying?

2long: It means a great deal to me that you care enough to try. But exactly what do you expect to accomplish? And when? I honestly don't know. It seems you are trying to get me to accept that your relationship with Rat Meat is going to somehow be harmless to our marriage and family from now on, in spite of your history. That's ridiculous. The harm of your past affairs has been done, and can never be undone. It CAN BE forgiven, but the relationship must end, forever, in order for that to happen. Forgiveness is a gift, and we can choose to forgive each other for our mistakes. Trust must be earned, and you haven't made the effort so far to earn my trust in you. You can't expect me to rebuild my trust in you if you insist on maintaining a "private" life with Rat Meat. Your hotmail account, that you yourself said you created specifically for communicating with Rat Meat will do nothing to help me trust you. Quite the opposite. I can't trust you so long as you keep any secrets from me about anything that could have an impact on our relationship. And this person will forever be a serious threat to your relationship with me and your family. And you can’t expect to be able to rebuild your trust in ME, if your actions keep me feeling suspicious of you. Let’s help each other out here.

No, there is no "trying." There's only a simple, though not an easy choice for you to make: STOP ALL CONTACT WITH RAT MEAT FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE, and do it NOW. You can't expect me to help you get through withdrawal from Rat Meat if you don't get past denial. And we can't even begin the hard, but rewarding work it will take to rebuild our marriage until you've made it through withdrawal. And every contact you have from this point on will postpone the withdrawal process.

Please come back to me emotionally. I love you and I want us to spend the rest of our lives together. I believe in you. I believe in your beautiful ambitions and goals for your research property. I marvel at what you've done for our nieces and nephew over the years. Look at the people they're becoming, in large part due to the time YOU chose to spend with them.

YOU made yourself the scientist you are today. Nobody else did. You deserve to be as proud as I am of your accomplishments as a scientist.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2L; I know EXACTLY how you feel. With a few very minor changes in the details, I would write this EXACT letter to my W. I wish I could! But it made me feel better to read it and think about saying it! Maybe one day I will!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Orchid:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>.....
W: So you ask me to share my thought with you and so I do and all they seem to do is hurt you. Yes I'm very torn, each of you have wonderful things to give...

.................

W: I hate that I would ever have to choose.

2long: There is absolutely no question that you do have to choose. Choose carefully, here, and make your decision soon. Would you choose to leave your family to be with a man that has cheated with you on his family throughout MOST of his own marriage? It would never work out, and you know it. .......... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2Long,
The above is a partial quote of your previous post. Here's my 2 cents.

My H gave the same line about having to choose. I told him, well you did push both the OW and myself to decide things for you and when we did you still threw then back so here goes.

You no longer have a choice. Isn't that great? The choice is now being made for you. Isn't that what you want? Good.

Left that for a while and then he came crawlin back to ask why.

Then I let him have it. The reason why you no longer have a choice is because I have taken myself out of your stupid A game. You and the OW deserve each other. I hope your 2 faces smash together. As long as mine is no wheres near the 2 of you will be fine with me. Whether you make a future with that tramp or not is no longer my concern. You can fall on your face for all I care, I have just decided that my priorities are now centered on our family and we choose to no longer worry about you and your foolishness.

Oooohh.. that piece of reality talking really woke him up. The OW was now the one pleading and I was backing off big time. This set the OW to fill all his needs. I took steps to financially separate our accounts. I took steps to start separation. I was primed and ready to go and then POP! Now you ready for this?

He called crying from the OWs house begging to come home and the OW in the background telling me to take him back. What a turnaround.

Yet that in itself did not move me. I told him to stay there longer and did not wish to have him back just like that. He threatened that he might even like it there, so I told him to stay. Then he changed his tune again. I still told him to stay. He persisted. He was then informed that
to come back required he show value. No longer did we wish him back. If he wanted back he must earn the privilege to return to the family. Frankly we were tired of his shingnagins. Of course the A actually continued for a while after this but eventually it died off to the point where he said he does not even miss her. Whether that is true or not is still in the proving stage.

The point to my saga is to help you see what some of us have to do. Some of us have to take steps forward. Not just in word but in deed. Some more than others but steps forward nonetheless.

take care,
L.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, boy, am I getting good stuff here! It sounds SO much like what I'll probably face...OUCH!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Gee, Orchid,

I wish I had said that to my stbx....well done!!

Folk units:

First, before I go back and re-read stuff, I wanted to tell you that I'm feeling prett good right now.

After work, I went to Fried Electrons to buy my D a memory card for her camera. Wasn't too good at the time, but got home, got a glass of good, cheap wine and started to look at my email and the forum. Well, D came over to get her card, and we talked for about 3 hours about all that's been going on. MIL came home too and we all talked. D said that she'd talked to my W a bit and W said she understood that I need to be alone for a while, so it looks like I'll get the space I need, even though I'm across the street. That's a load off, believe me. I don't have to worry about running into her and arguing about stuff this way. Also, W didn't send me any emails since this morning about the house, so I managed to tense off (a new 2long technical term) quite a bit.

I'd still like my W to wake her sorry a$$ up RIGHT NOW and let us hie ourselves on over to the phone and knock out this M stuff with SH next week, but I promise, H4F, to only HOPE, not EXPECT.

So, I think I'll sleep pretty good tonight.

Orchid:

AWESOME story!! See, it looks like there are points where venting directly to the WS is the right thing to do!

I don't think it is for me, quite. From what I hear from my D about things the WW said this weekend, I'm getting clues she's facing SOME things. Not the things I NEED her to face to my satisfaction, but the process seems to be starting and one or two synapses have fired already.

Hope, not expectation.....

SC:

I honestly hope you don't have to face this yourself, but I can see how you might. I can also see how, from Orchid's story, you and I can be OKAY with it if it comes to that, from all we've learned.

Good luck with Steve tomorrow!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Okay, I'm going to go to bed and get meself a good night's sleep for a change.

But before I go:

Q: What's the definition of a "crying shame?"

A: A bus full of Rat Meat clones driving off a cliff with two empty seats!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hi 2long, check this new addition to my sig:

It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion,
It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed,
The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning,
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

TMCM:

Yeah, but that was from the movie, not the book or the miniseries, right?

Ah, the miniseries! Now, the actress that plays Chani in the SciFi channel version is FOOD! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

"Tell me about the waters of your homeworld, Usul"

<small>[ July 23, 2002, 07:29 AM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

Alright! I can't stand it anymore!!! I LOVE Dune!! Have you guys read *all* the books, including the new prequels???

BTW, 2Long, MY favorite was Francesca Annis who was Lady Jessica in the movie. And I did like Sean Young as Chani...

My favorite line was(and I'm only paraphrasing here as I can't recall it exactly at the moment)...
"If you put away those who report accurately, you will be surrounded by only those who know what you want to hear", Jessica said, her voice sweet, "I can think of nothing more poisonous than to rot in the stink of your own reflection".

<small>[ July 23, 2002, 07:56 AM: Message edited by: Heartpain ]</small>

Heartpain:

I've read most of the books. I think I'd read all of them except the last one, but very long ago (I read Dune when it came out in the mid 60's... ...several times). I had just gotten one of the prequels for Christmas the year before the fire at our house, and was waiting to re-read the entire series before I read that one, then the fire, and all my books are either water damaged or in storage somewhere...

So, I read David Brin novels in the meantime.

My favorite line from Dune pertains to Rat Meat:

"You worm-faced, crawling, sand-brained piece of lizard turd!!"

<small>[ July 23, 2002, 08:14 AM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

DAMN!

Another email from my W. Once again, since I'm not in "official plan B" yet, I need to know if I should respond to some of this. I think the part about SF definitely needs some response. She's completely missed the point.

My original email was about scheduling on the roof. No R talk, just signed off with an ILY.

W: Somehow I got the idea you were coming back last night. Oh well, was wondering what you're planning on doing, have to get the key from coworker tomorrow to her place. Wee can't afford for you to stay in hotels for too long, and if need be, I will go to <house out of state>, or sleep in the main house, won't bother me at all.

Also, have you had a chance to talk with your C about Tuesday night? You really need to talk with him about what that was about, and what to call the inability to not have SF with me when you want it. This is very important to me and if it cannot be resolved then I see no hope."

I'm going to work on a VENT reply right now, and wait to see what people's suggestions might be.

2L; she is again trying to draw you into an argument about something different from what the REAL argument is. Don't let her.

She's also trying to get you to tell her what you're up to in terms of living arrangements; a transparent attempt at figuring out what your plans are, couched in "living arrangements" wording. Don't let her.

Hang tough; 2L, now is NOT the time to cave to this. Let her stew, and let her do whatever SHE thinks she has to do; move out, go to a friend's, other house, whatever.

Here's my VENT:

W: Somehow I got the idea you where coming back last night... oh well
was wondering what your planning on doing, have to get the key from
coworker tomarrow to her place. We can't afoord for you to stay in hotels
for to long, and if need be, I will go to house out of state or sleep in main house, won't
bother me at all.

2long: I will stay away as long as it takes for you to make your decision about Rat Meat. I look forward to the day when we can work on the problems in our marriage without the distraction. I’m staying in the guest house with your mom. No hotel bills. No reason for you to go anywhere else. Just please leave me alone until you've made your decision.

W: Also have you had a chance to talk with your concerler about Tueday
evening... you really need to talk with him about what that was about ,
and what to call the inability to not have sexually gradifcation with me,
when you want it.. this is very important to me and if it can not be
resloved then I see no hope.

2long: I have my next IC appointments late next week. I have not had a chance to talk to them about your question. I have asked the forum about that, and I’ve gotten 2 responses. One thought that she’d be delighted if her H would have “taken care of himself” when he was interested and she wasn’t. The other thought that we should talk about it and try to come to some joint agreement about situations like that. W, to me that evening was embarrassing, but I certainly didn’t realize at the time that you were so angry and hurt. I will say again that SF for me is far more than the physical act. There would be nothing to enjoy if there wasn’t the emotional connection at the same time. When it’s been good for us, it’s because I felt we were being close. I certainly would not be interested in sex for it’s own sake. I thought that, most of the time since January 18th I had been doing pretty well with refraining from pressuring you into having sex when you don’t want it. Last Tuesday was an unfortunate exception, a result of a sad misunderstanding.

<small>[ July 23, 2002, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

I made some minor changes to my vent from yesterday as well. I really need some thoughts on this. I know I'm supposed to "keep her guessing" to some extent here, but I think the email this morning clearly shows she doesn't even know at this point what I'm up to, or why I left. Don't I owe her some kind of explanation? Kind of like what Orchid said to her H?

Just decided this was still too much like version 1.0, so I'm editing it here.

VENT 1, version 2.0:

W: I agree you do need time, time to think about what love is, it is not owning , it is not having, it is sharing, it is caring, it is looking past the faults because we all have them, and trying to help make each other be better, each life a little easier, happier, kinder it is excepting each other for what we are, and the moments shared, they do not fade or end, but do change...

2long: I do know what love is. And I love YOU. I want to feel safe sharing everything about me with you, and I want you to feel safe sharing your innermost feelings and ambitions with me. All the good stuff, all the bad stuff, ALL OF IT. I want to support you morally and financially in your endeavors with your property. I want us to nurture and care for each other and help each other grow intellectually, just like we promised each other 26 years ago. I cannot and will not do that any longer if I have to "share" you with Rat Meat.

W: Of late the moments together are almost all filled with pain and hurt, and fear not loving.

2long: And why is this? For me, it’s because you love two people at the same time, that I hurt as much as I do. And the longer it continues, the more intense the pain. Don't believe you can wean yourself away from being emotionally attached to him. It won't work.

W: So you ask me to share my thought with you and so I do and all they seem to do is hurt you. Yes I'm very torn, each of you have wonderful things to give...

2long: And Rat Meat has given himself to OMW and his two sons, and he needs to GET BACK to his family, exclusively and WITHOUT YOU. Have either of you thought about how the breakup of his family due to your affairs has affected them? I know how horrible this feels EVERY DAY. Have you thought about how you plan to explain your relationship with Rat Meat to our son?? Do you want him to grow up believing that he can be dishonest and cheat in his own relationships just because he becomes attracted to someone else?

W: I hate that I would ever have to choose.

2long: I'm sorry you are stuck on this, but there is absolutely no question that you do have to choose. Choose carefully, here, and make your decision soon. Would you choose to leave your family to be with a man that has cheated with you on his family throughout MOST of his own marriage? I have no desire to know him or ever see him. Why? Because you invited him to invade our relationship without my knowledge and certainly without my consent. The quality of our marriage in the past 12 years isn't so much due to our inability to communicate, it's because your emotions were divided, and so you were incapable of being truly intimate with me and your family in every sense of the word during that time. Even between your affairs, you had to keep part of your life secret from me. You had to be on your guard, so as not to reveal anything that might show just what you and Rat Meat had done to your families. How could we be truly intimate if you couldn’t even share your experiences with me?

On the other hand, I do have a 28-year history of memories with YOU, and we have two beautiful kids. And so, in spite of the damage that has been done by the mistakes of the past, I have a very strong desire to learn what it was that caused us to grow apart 12 years ago. We can LEARN from our past mistakes, but only if we STOP COMMITING them and focus on US and our family, excluding all others.

W: Doesn't it mean anything that I keep trying?

2long: It means a great deal to me that you love me enough to try. But exactly what do you expect to accomplish? And when? I honestly don't know. It seems you are trying to get me to accept that your relationship with Rat Meat is going to somehow be harmless to our marriage and family from now on, in spite of your history. That's ridiculous. The harm of your past affairs has been done, and can never be undone. It CAN BE forgiven, but the relationship must end, forever, in order for that to happen. Forgiveness is a GIFT, and we can CHOOSE to forgive each other for our mistakes. Trust must be EARNED, and you haven't made the effort so far to earn my trust in you. Your hotmail account, that you yourself said you created specifically for communicating with Rat Meat will do nothing to help me trust you. And you can’t expect to be able to rebuild your trust in ME, if your actions continue to make me feel suspicious of you. There is no need for you to handle communication with Rat Meat yourself in order to get this report finished. You can hand that over to coworker right now, and still get the report done. PLEASE, let’s help each other out here.

No, there is no "trying." There's only a simple, though not an easy, choice for you to make: STOP ALL CONTACT WITH RAT MEAT FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE, and do it NOW. You can't expect me to help you get through withdrawal from Rat Meat if you don't get past the denial that this R continues to be harmful to our families. And we can't even begin the hard, but rewarding work it will take to rebuild our marriage until you've made it through withdrawal. And every contact you have from this point on will postpone the withdrawal process.

Please come back to me emotionally, and I will return home. I love you and I want us to spend the rest of our lives together. I believe in you. I believe in your beautiful ambitions and goals for your research property. I marvel at what you've done for our nieces and nephew over the years. Look at the people they're becoming, in large part due to the time YOU chose to spend with them.

YOU made yourself the scientist you are today. Nobody else did. You deserve to be as proud as I am of your accomplishments as a scientist.

<small>[ July 23, 2002, 10:32 AM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

Any thoughts about how I should respond to my W's email this am?

I feel like I need to tell her SOMETHING, since I can't get SH to review my plan B letter, or even comment on whether I should even BE in plan B at this point, until I talk to him in a week and a half. A LOT can happen in that time.

2long,

How about:

"Dearest WW,

I guess I should explain you that my departure had nothing to do with the SF incident. I regret it hurt you, and understand it was a misunderstanding that had nothing to do with me leaving.

I love you, but due to the stress test you are putting me through I can feel myself ready to break and loose all my love for you, and I don't want that to happen.

I am working on possibilities for living arrangements. Just don't expect me home any time soon. I am working on drafting a more detailing letter that will explain all of this.

Please accept my most sincere apologies for keeping you on hold while I figure this out. I hadn't planned on leaving, it just happened, I felt that if I didn't things would deteriorate and be difficult to deal with.

Love,
2long"

How about that? maybe too much?