2long, did you ever read Passionate Marriage?

It's taken me months to actually get through it all, but the place I'm at in it right now I remember going through very vividly...and I think it's EXACTLY where you are.

You're shaking her tree...and she's trying to get things back on terms she's comfortable with (even though they're uncomfortable). The more you can do differently than you've done in the past...the more she will fight that change...until she's finally forced to face herself...which is the idea...yes?

H4F:

No, I haven't read that. I saw it in the bookstore the other day when I bought Divorce Remedy. I'll go get it by this weekend.

Hey, I thought of the perfect response. I know, I'm not SUPPOSED to. But this is no sweat, and avoids the argument:

W: "Sure take all the space you need,k but you still didn't answer my question about talking to the counselor. This is very important. You need to deal with it."

2long: "My next counseling appointment is August 1st."

Harmless, no?

But then there's my vent to the NEXT question, which I'm so, so, so, so tempted to include, but know I SHOULDN'T, unless I want to die!

W: "How can it be a union when you make the important decisions without me?"

2long: "Think about what you just asked me. I want to make every important decision with you from this moment on. That's what the "policy of joint agreement" is about. How about how WE, as a union, deal with this problem of your relationship with Rat Meat? This is of absolutely paramount importance, and WE need to deal with IT. NOW!"

You're really going to get a lot out of Passionate Marriage. It paints the picture of what you're going through, explains why it often comes to that, and guides you through what to do about it! And that is to FOCUS ON YOURSELF! I HIGHLY suggest picking it up ASAP.

h4f:

I will try to swing by the bookstore tomorrow. I have 4 proposals I need to review tonight that are late.

Damn, this is a major drain. (exactly why to resist getting sucked in, I know).

Oops. Goofed. Anyway, this is a huge vent. But one that I absof***inglutely HAD to vent!!!

W: How can it be a union when you make the important decisions without
me?

2long: How about we agree NOT to make ANY important decisions unilaterally from now on. We've talked about the "policy of joint agreement" (POJA) from "His Needs, Her Needs". You seemed to like that concept when we discussed it a few months ago. I would like to use POJA to discuss ideas like buying the rental house for your mom and sister. Personally, I think we need to wait and see what will happen to our finances when the settlement comes and what will happen to our marriage. I actually thought that was what WE HAD decided weeks ago, and that's why I sent our realtor that reply. I'm sorry if that wasn't the case in your view and I promise not to do anything like that again without talking to you first.

I would also like to use POJA in figuring out what we should do about your relationship with Rat Meat. My vote would be that we sit down together and write a no contact letter to him, cc to his wife, explaining that we plan to commit ourselves to recovering our marriage, that your affairs were harmful to both our families, and that we will need him to cease any and all attempts to contact you for the rest of his life, and you will show him the respect and do the same so that he can reconcile with his wife and two sons. It might add a small burden to coworker's shoulders to handle the dialog with him until this report is done, but compared to how much it hurts to know that the relationship continues, I think she'd be more than willing to handle it. If you have any other ideas that might work, I'd be willing to entertain them for a POJA agreement between us. I just can't imagine any other reasonable solution.

You must realize by now that this continuing relationship, and this secret email account of yours to protect HIM from ME (though I don't know what you think I would do) is exactly what made me feel like I had to leave the other night.

All my love, forever if possible!
-2long.

<small>[ July 23, 2002, 07:37 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

2LONG !!!

Take your hands OFF the keyboard ... NOW! and do not type a reply to that obvious WW bait .... Hands OFF the keyboard ... OFF, I say! ....oops ... 2Long ... where are your hands now? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Put your hands back UP on the table where we can all see them ... just not on the keyboard ...... there, that's better <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Drop the keyboard, son......DROP IT!!!!!!!!!

Now, slowly turn around and put your hands against the wall....

And KEEP THEM THERE until the urge to hit the send button goes completely away.

YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO REMAIN SILENT!!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Sheesh, 2long, she really KNOWS how to get you to do what she wants!!!!!!!

Listen...........AGAIN!!!!!!!

DO NOT REPLY TO HER QUESTIONS OR COMMENTS REGARDING THE RELATIONSHIP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IF, and only IF it is absolutely NECESSARY, contact is permissable about the HOUSE only.

WAIT until you see SH before any more contact with her.

Whenever my stbx asks, or TELLS me something that is manipulative, I just do not address it. I DO NOT because whatever I say, I am WRONG as far as he is concerned. I have had a lot more practise at this than you, so I will forgive you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

BUT, GET AWAY FROM THE KEYBOARD!!!!!!!!

Is there a problem officers?

okay, okay, okay...

...okay.

I didn't hit the send button. In fact, ol' 2long is SO careful, that when I hit the "reply" button to compose the reply, I delete the address from the "to" line before I write ANYTHING.

So, ain't I smart? Kidneys, man. Kidneys!!

LOL Pepper you always crack me up.

Definitely, let her stew, if she comes knocking on your door you can always meow and pretend you are toonces the driving cat, who just happened to wander in the house after dropping off your van.

2long,

If you have read the kingdom thread on D/D I am known there as Detective Laughalott, or other names depending on my mood of the day...so WATCH IT!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Good man for not sending the email...I was really HOPING you didn't!

Here is an idea...just keep writing these 'emails' to your wife, but post them here as you have been doing, and not to her. To get it off your chest does really help, and the support here helps you to stay strong, as you know.

I know you are saying you can't get your work done...and I know how hard that can be at times like this. But do TRY to throw yourself into it, because it will distract you from this mess. Also, I found that when I was at my most despairing, if I got something DONE, I felt so MUCH better, and was able to see that I was a strong person after the fact.

The other pay-off is that if your wife knows you are functioning at a normal level it will bother the heck out of her <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . Later, not now....when in conversation the work comes up (cos you seem to talk about that a bit) you can casually throw in how you finished A and B and are now working on C. I did this with my stbx, and he was really SURPRISED....and I am sure it was because he expected me to lay down and die or something.

The message you should be giving in this stage of things is YES, you love her...(BUT no more emails remember - you already made it clear).....but if she isn't in your life you can cope just fine. No matter if you don't think it, you gotta act it.

Okay, off the soap box!!!

Love and light,

Jacky

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>Orchid:

AWESOME story!! See, it looks like there are points where venting directly to the WS is the right thing to do!

I don't think it is for me, quite. From what I hear from my D about things the WW said this weekend, I'm getting clues she's facing SOME things. Not the things I NEED her to face to my satisfaction, but the process seems to be starting and one or two synapses have fired already.

Hope, not expectation.....</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow 2Long,
I don't check MB for 1 day and poof....this thread just rockets off. Are you trying to get to 2000 posts on this thread alone!! LOL! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I would like to clarify that the purpose of my post with this real life account was to let you know that the BS does not have to be a doormat. Even in plan A. It is ok to be nice but be firm.

Did I LB? It may appear so but at that point in my life, I really did not care. You know I do not regret my words or actions, then or now. This may be a non MB thing to say but eventually we either take back control of our lifes or continue to let the WS step all over us with the OP helping dig it in just a bit more.

Well I choose not to be made any shorter than I already am!! LOL!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> If anyone was to be made smaller it was this A. Shrink it down to nothing. That became my goal. The A could be as large as a house outside my living space, outside my environment.

I choose to take myself out of the picture. I learned that here. Take heed to some people like JL, K, Chris123, Sheryl, Bramble Rose, Cali, WAT, Resilient, Topie, Medic, NSR, Mtthrbard, Persevering, LOR, Twyla, Lupolady, Faith1, Leilana, H2Y, Rick37, JTW, Dana, Zorweb, JDmac, SEM, KS, [H], Knewjie, Fatherof1husbandof0, HopelessnAZ, Redhat and many many others.
When they post it is to help us get past the anger/frustration/hurt stage. It is to help us get to the acceptance stage so that we can really start to feel relief.

For the momment our lives look pretty bleak. Our concentration pulls soooo hard on trying to 'fix' the wrong thing. We often waste precious time and energy focuing on the wrong thing but we are helplessly drawn to that fake light of hope by thinking if we only find the cure we can fix them.

In reality that is not the case so until the Ws learns from the err of their ways the BS must move forward in order to survive. It is the life of ourselves and our family's that are at stake.

When our mind reaches this level of understanding then we will be empowered to move forward and our priorities start to change. No longer will the focus be on fixing the Ws. The focus now becomes what is truly within our power/control....that of the safety and welfare of our family.

JMHO,
L. 0

Good stuff, folks.

As you already know, I'm certainly likely to go nutzy again and again, over and over, repeatedly and reduntantly for days, hopefully not weeks but possibly weeks, to come.

It's absolutely awesome to have you all's help out there. I sure need it.

Thanks, cubic tons of thanks.

Interesting development.

We've got an infrared sensor in the house (because we had a burglary there a couple months ago)), and two receivers - one in the rental house and one in the guest house.

It went off about 20 minutes ago. It's still daylight, and the gate's open, so it's not likely a thief. It's my W. She's gone into the house to sit on the balcony and watch the sun go down.

This is good news. It means that she's reflecting on $h!t IN OUR HOUSE, and so she's not DETACHING from OUR LIFE. I like that. It also means that she's respecting my desire for no contact, because the gate's on the driveway in front of the guest house.

Time, and the river flowing. Right?

Man 2long... you make my Hurricane Cali storm seem like a tempest in a teapot <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> !

2long you are probably most definitely RIGHT when it comes to what you have analyzed and dissected about OM and your wife... however... when I had my serious meltdown last summer an oldtimer said to me... "You can be right, or you can be married." What is your goal. Later I read a book, "How One of You Can Keep the Two of You Together" by Susan Page, which illustrated that being right is the booby prize of life.

As I plodded through the last few days of your thread... all I could think was that you are spending WAY TO MUCH ENERGY and your wife, her OM, the A and YOUR relationship. It is all OUT OF YOUR CONTROL.

I know so badly the feeling of wanting to say, or do or ANYTHING to get the WS to just CHANGE their mind and tell you that YOU are RIGHT and THEY have been WRONG... ya know what 2long... 6 months into true recovery and I'm still waiting...

I HAD TO GIVE IT UP. Now, I chose to give in to God's Will... sobbing uncontrollably for the umpteenth time in the bathtub (the only place I could do so w/ H and 3 DSs in the house)...

...but that's what I read through these posts... that 2long has to GIVE IT UP. You cannot change her mind... you cannot find just the right words... no amount of editing the PERFECTLY worded email is going to do it... (advise from another MBr...Lexxxy...who questioned why I was writing my H yet another 'plan A' letter)...

...but I know that no amount of convincing is going to get you to STOP and just FOCUS on YOU... control YOU... figure out YOU... for some reason... we all have to learn in our own time and in our own way...

Big Hugs to you,
Cali

Did you notice something missing in her email reply to you ?? Where did she say this:

"2Long, I am sorry you are having emotional distress." ....... "I hope you are feeling better today."

.... something to acknowledge you said you were is distress.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I hope the sunset is so beautiful ... that it makes her cry! And I hope she realizes how cold her reply was to a hurting man. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

P

Plan A is about 2long, Plan A is about 2long....

Try hard not to think about what she is doing/not doing, thinking, etc. this is one sure way NOT to stay on top.

Cali:

My MIL and I were just talking about that very thing. At least my W is watching the sunset by herself and appears to accept that I need to be left alone for now.

I can't do anything to pull her head out of her butt. It's probably something about the process? If you pull someone's head out of their butt, you don't have the "feel" for just the right rate of tugging? Like, too fast or two slow, leaves too much "residue"? And maybe the person suffering from Corneal Rectumitis needs to do their own pulling?

Sorry about the image!

Pepper:

Yeah, I noticed that a couple of months ago. Ol' 2long tries desperately to evoke an ILY from the spousal unit, only to get, at best, some change-the-subject response, and at worst, a rebuke.

Plan A'd my beautox off the entire time, to the best of my abilities, trying to understand her perspective even if I didn't agree with it. And it worked... to a point. Then, ol' 2long started going beyond hoping and started expecting some signs, sparks, helium farts, ANYTHING to indicate that his lovey dovey gestures were "getting through."

And now here I am. It got too hard to maintain the plan A behavior. ILY's and similar things just got rebukes. I'll grow through this somehow.

Wow this thread is active. Hey, 2long, hope we'll all be meeting you over in recovery at some point sooner rather than later.

Interesting as to how WW still tries to bring it back to the SF incident by asking once again when you'll speak to your counselor about it. I agree that no response is best. Discussions about SF can wait until your marriage is monogamous again.

I don't think that doing a longer Plan A would really make a difference. She would continue to cake eat, which has been a habit for the past 12 years. I will tell you that while Plan A helped alot it was the tough love part that helped my H break it off. I had to make it clear he would lose me if it continued. When I found evidence of continued phone calls (mostly to commiserate about the difficulty of dealing with a betrayed spouse) I had to put his suitcase on the bed, tell him to pack it and that he would be moving out that night. He never called OW again.

Also, don't worry too much about LBs. I think BS can point out the harsh realities to the WS as long as it isn't disrespectful. For example, in answer to your W's point about not making decisions together you could say "Well, what the H*** did you expect after you made the decision to have the disgusting and immoral A with Rat Meat? (Definitely an LB- not respectful) Or you can say, "I know how upsetting it is not to be included in a decision. I feel that way about your decision to continue your relationship with RM" I don't think that is a lovebuster. It's not disrespectful, it's not a judgment. I think it is a mistake for BS to be so afraid of committing a lovebuster that they can't point out the consequences of the affair. You can't threaten, you can't denigrate the WS. But you can calmly point out consequences and discuss them.

BTW, regarding the SF incident, I am one of those who would appreciate my H taking care of himself- especially if there were no guilt trips from him- when I was tired. But, again, how to handle that type of situation is a discussion that can occur when your marriage is in recovery. Your wife is only using that to try to deflect the issue of why you left.

Your leaving is in a way the perfect response to some of the things she's said. Well- you're not trying to own her- you're not even there. How will she feel about your need for privacy from her? The idea of privacy may not feel so good when the shoe is on the other foot.

Stay away from that keyboard now you hear me?