Well, it has been over a week since I was on here and things completely blew apart last week. I have an appointment with Steve Harley this afternoon in order to figure out what to do.

The short of it is this. things were going reasonably well, or so I thought, with my WW the last couple of weeks. She was spending all of her available time with me or with me and the kids. With our house selling this last monday and us moving into our new house this week, she showed every indication that she was moving in and that we were at least getting along, if not moving forward.

Then last monday happened!! I went to closing on our house (since my name was the only one on it and she was upset about us selling the house, she did not want to go). Well, we got 10 grand leass than we thought because we had the wrong information on the payoff amounts for the 1st and second mortgages. Anyway, when I got home, my WW blew her stack! Started saying that I had screwed this up (even though it was our decision) and a whole bunch of other insults. She started sobbing uncontrollably (her #1 EN is financial support, which has been our biggest problem over the last 4 years). She even called a doctor and made an appointment to see him on Tuesday to get some anxiety medication. I stayed home from work and we both basically stayed in bed all day sleeping (the kids were at grandma's). Later in the day, I came to her and asked if I could massage her and maybe even "more." She balked at it at first, but when she asked me later why I wanted to do that, I told her i loved her and that I enjoyed doing for her. I said that I would be willing to do anything in order to just help her calm down, and let me meet her physical needs (massage, sex, etc) that afternoon. Well, she went for it and we had a pretty good time. but I could still tell that she was depressed, so I took her out and we went shopping for about a $100 in clothes for her. That seemed to perk her up, and we rented a movie, ordered some food, and sat on the couch holding each other. it seemed like we had recovered from the disappointment from the morning.

Anyway, the next day, I was to take care of one of the bills that had been hanging over our heads for the last few years. I went to the bank on my lunch break, only to have them tell me that there was a freeze on the account because over $11,000 had been withdrawn earlier that morning (we had about $25,000 in equity dropped in there the day before). I called the WW in complete astonishment. She said that she didnt trust me with the money and that she had to protect herself if we didnt work out. Well, I had put together a detailed plan on how we were getting out of our financial situation with the money, and now she has completely undermined it. So, of course, I went ballistic! she said that she had only thought of doing this the night before, that her fear caused her to do it (she talked to Steve later in the week and Steve said to me later that he thinks she might be in withdrawal and VERY scared).

Well, the next few days, things got worse. She said that I dont pay attention to her feelings and dont take her seriously. When asked what those feelings are, she says "that I want to seperate, that I feel smothered, and that she cannot deal with me right now." When asked about the OM, it seems that he is not talking to her, possible because we are still together in the same house, that she was still moving with me, and that SF needs were starting to happen. Anyway, this all may be withdrawal like Steve said, even though WW says that it isnt about OM, biut the fact that she nolonger loves me and really cant stand to be with me. That she has tried, and been there over the last few weeks, trying to play the part. but it just isnt working for her. In reality, it may be that she realizes the death of the OM's relationship, and is using the move and money to put herself in the position to maybe winning him back. or, I have been a fool all along and this has been her plan (their plan). She has never been good at deception (wasnt in the affair either) so it is hard to believe that this was part of her plan.

Anyway guys, I am completely destroyed here. I do not know what to do. She is out hunting for an apartment. She told the kids yesterday that we are seperating. All of the deliquent bills are in her name, and she said she is going to go to bankruptsy and get rid of them and to suffer through the next year until she graduates from nursing school and then she will take care of herself. She is asking for nothing from me. But, she continues to mention that I promised to make sure she got through school and if I loved her like I said I do, this would go a long way to show her by helping to support her.

So, there it is in the cliff note version. She leaves and what do I do? Give up and go to plan D (divorce)? Stay in Plan A and help support her and keep working on this, hoping that the breather will cause her to wake up and come out of the fog (the kids will be living with me)? Or, Plan B, cut her off and hope that a miracle wil cause her to wake up?

Like I said, Steve and I are talking in a couple hours and I will let everyone know what he says. but, what is your call on this?

Over a week ago, I posted that it looked like recovery was in the future and I could see it. now, I just see my wife leaving in a couple days and my marriage over with.

Now what?

Mortarman,

First of all ((((((((((hug))))))))))))
You have had a terrible weekend I am so very sorry.

I think she has had plenty of opportunities to realize you love her and that you are trying. It is blalantly obvious she is using you.

She may be scared and in withdrawal, but she cheated you on thinking she wanted recovery, grabbed the money, and ran!

Now she expects you to sit at home with the kids, earn more money, put her through school, and then she'll be scott free to take off????

She is delusional, paranoid and crazy!

I would wait to see what Steve says, but it is time for you to get in touch with your lawyer and draw up a decent agreement for separation. She is stopping onto nothing and she has played you nicely. It is time you protect yourself.

Hi Mortarman,
Sorry things exploded, so to speak. I have to get to work. On break I will reply. Let us know what Steve says.

Hi,
Maybe she is scared. Financial security is very important to me, so important that I sort of run the show in that area. However, my H has taught me that I have to be. He is very irresponsible with $$, that I have to keep a tight reign on it. I would love to be a little looser in that area. When ever I do, he overspends and then we cannot afford anything, savings gets wiped out to cover his overspending. So, I do have a tendancy to hid money from him.

This plan to get out of debt, how aware of it was she, did she realize that this would have paid off alot of her debt or caught it up? Does she truly understand the effects of bankrupcty. If you can get credit you have to pay high interest for years. I know, 8 years ago, I was forced to file, my options were pay credit card debt or support baby no. 1. Well, children's protective services would not have been sympathetic to my leaving an infant home alone so I could pay mastercard. (I had alot of credit cards, for a single person I was fine, the problem came when I had a baby, could not afford both).

They are trying to change the bankruptcy laws to make it harder to file, she may not be able to qualify. These are many things she needs to consider.

I hope Steve can help.

Stay strong

Thanks for the response, both of you. Things remain crazy, with two days left until it is time to move and until my WW leaves.

I talked to Steve yesterday for an hour. And, he was pretty tough on me. It seems that I was right and Steve believes that my WW is scared. Due to all of the things that happened during the affair (family/friends involved with tailing her, hiring PI, video taping EVERYTHING, etc), plus the LBs I have done since I got back (like threatening to take the kids away when she talks about leaving, etc) has caused her to live in perpetual fear of me and what I am or might be doing to her. Steve said that right now, I cannot concentrate on meeting her needs (which is what I have been doing) because the only thing she feels is that she is unsafe with me (not physically). This is why she wants to separate. She says the last few weeks, she would rather stay at work than come home because we are constantly talking about our relationship, and arguing. She says she cannot see the changes in me. steve said that is because she is scared and cannot see anything right now. If I want her to see the changes, then I have to find a way to create a safe environment for her where she doesnt feel threatened or feel like she is living under this mess everyday.

The only problem with this is that she is definitely going to move somewhere else (having a tough time right now finding a place with her credit problems and income...more on that in a minute). So, now I have to Plan A without her there, which is going to be very difficult. Steve suggested that I stay in constant touch with her, set up weekly "dates" and have her over as much as she wants or is comfortable to have dinner or hang out with me and the kids (the kids will live with me for at least the next year while she is in school). Steve went on to say that Plan A is about me being a better me and her seeing that. He said it will be harder for her to do that, and she will have an easier time being in a position where the OM or a new OM could walk in and pull her completely away, but such are the risks of the situation that we are in, right?

So, I guess I am still in Plan A but I am finding it very difficult finding the motivation to do this. Most of my strength to stay and work on this has come from her presence. Sitting up late at night and hearing her stories from her day at work in the Emergency Room. Or watching TV. Or just hearing her breath next to me when we sleep. Now I will have none of that. And still not have any of my needs being met. And where will she get hers met (affection, SF, etc)?

I talked to WW right after the talk with Steve while she got ready to go do the midnight shift at the ER. At first, she was VERY combative and told me that she cannot wait to get out of there and into her own place where things will calm down. She asked me what happened with Steve and I told her thathe had helped me understand the safety issue and that I was creating an environment where she didnt feel safe, which was damaging any hope of recovery/reconciliation. She looked at me and nodded. it was at this point she actually calmed down some and started saying that was indeed true and she had been telling me that. I asked her if there was any way that she could just move with us and set up some ground rules so that we can move forward. but I found out through her subsequent tirade that she is so scared and combative that she will not rest until she is out and in her own place. She wants to know right now that she can come home and not have to deal with all of this, that she is not going to fight when she gets home and then get threatened with something happening during the fight.

I told her that I would support whatever. She looked at me at first and said that "I'm sure that will change in 10 minutes and you will be back all over me again." But I tild her that I am trying and that I am concentrating all my efforts from now on not to LB and to make sure that at all costs, she feels safe. She calmed down some after that.

I then asked, if she is going to move, that "what next?" She said that "I thought that we had come to an agreement that we would work on this, that we would schedule being together alone and with the kids." So, she seems to want Steve's plan (of course Steve would rather she stay). I told her I could do that, but I have to know that she is not going to see anyone or have SF needs filled by anyone. I told her that we are both so vulnerable and that now that we are out-of-sight-out-of-mind, then it will take nothing for us to fall into what she fell into when I left last year for Bosnia. She said that was fine, and if that changed, she would let me know first (it sickens me to think that she would even consider that changing and her letting OM or new OM into the picture again). She then turned around and said "But I expect you to not see anyone either."

So, I went from a week and a half ago with us seeming to be doing well and moving into our new house together, to her taking half our money and saying that she wants to separate and not caring if I file for divorce or not, to her saying that she would be willing to keep working on this (she has an appointment with Steve on Thursday) and would refrain from seeing anyone while we tried. Not sure I should believe that, but her comment that I have to do so also kind of makes me believe that she still holds hope. As a matter of fact, on the way out the door, we hugged for the first time in a week, she got teary eyed and told me that she didnt want to get her hopes up again, but if I meant what I said about her not having to fear anymore and willing to work with her, then she would see. she also told me (I NEVER KNEW...and wish I did because I would not have created this environment) that 5 weeks ago, after we started up with Steve and we were working on things, she was EXTREMELY hopeful that I finally GOT IT and that we would work out. But now, due to my LBs and her fear, she has gotten to the point where she just wants to feel safe, no matter what happens...even divorce.

So guys and gals...what next?? She has been so quiet since I came home in April from Bosnia. it wasnt until lately that she told me that there has been several times since I have been home that we have been close to working this out, only to have events/my LBs, etc drive her back into her hole and for us to get worse. God, I wish I had known. I had been flailing around precisely because I was getting no information and felt that we were getting nowhere. And I in fact sabotaged on several occasions our ability to recover.

I hope I am now not too late in finding this out. With her leaving, I have severely handicapped us. I am hoping Steve can talk some sense into her Thursday, but she may already have a place before then. She is so afraid to open up to me, and I need that to know that everything is okay and that things are moving forward. Read my post above about finances and all. she is ready to trash everything in order to do this. If she is indeed scared and not just taking me for a ride, then I am not sure how she is going to see the changes in me and our household that will calm her down and make her see that her fear is unfounded and that it is safe in our home and with me.

Anyway, another long post. I wish I could turn back the clock. If I cant turn it back to before the affair, at least back to 3 weeks ago, when things were going good, she says. but of course I cannot. Now without her around, it is going to make things a lot more difficult. And my paranoia will increase as I wonder where she is at and who she is with when she is not with me and the kids.

Of course, since Steve still has me in Plan A, then I will try to continue working on me an showing her on every available occasion that I am who I say I am.

I want off this ride. To know we have been close three times over the last three months to moving into reconciliation, only to have events and/or her actions or my actions sabotage it really is making me sick. I would have rather known that there has been no chance at all than to lose her and find out she did want to stay and we were so close to doing it only to have it all undermined. Satan is having a field day!

In His arms.

Hi,

Sorry things are not well. But, there is a small bright spot here. She was interested in how it went with Steve, and she told you that she is afraid of getting her hopes up.

I'm guessing here, but I think she really wants it to work, but she needs to know that she will not have to regret this A for the rest of your Married lives together.

I know it does not make sense to us, the BS, but, if we try for a second to put ourselves in their shoes. What would you fear the most if you had the A, with regards to you W? That she would leave. If she didn't leave, would you have to spend every day of the rest of your life repenting?

It took me a long time to come to this point with my M. And I hope my anger over the last five years has not ruined my M to the point where my H, is only physically in the M, but not emotionaly. Please don't make the same mistake I did with my H. I didn't even realize it was possible to be angry for 5 years. It got to the point where being angry was comfortable. However, I always missed the relaxed me.

<small>[ July 30, 2002, 06:37 PM: Message edited by: Sue with hope ]</small>

Mortarman, sorry to hear how things have regressed. Your signature, "In His Arms" caught my attention. I mean no offense because I am somewhat in the same boat as you, but being "In His Arms" suggests faith. I believe that the opposite of faith is not doubt but fear. Believe me, I know it's natural to be fearful in this situation. The problem though, is that fear causes us to act paranoid and angry and, as you know, that is a major turn-off for our W. The Bible says, "Be anxious for nothing". I know that feels impossible to pull off. I can only tell you that when I am tempted to get crazy, I remember that verse and just will myself to maintain self-control. There's a great payoff. Your W will feel safer being with you as she starts to trust this newfound change in you. I wish you good luck.

Thanks Sue and Yank!

Sue: I hope you are right. Steve Harley seems to think this also. but I still have this weird feeling that I might be taken for a ride also. That when she moves into an apartment next week, that it will signal the end. More on that below. but, I do hold out hope due to what you just raised, and the fact that she has been volunteering information to me, like the deal about how she felt we were getting closer together and she was starting to get excited about it, only to have me LB again and cause her anxiety and wanting to move out for awhile.

Yank: I appreciate what you said. "In His arms" to me signals where I am. It's like that "Footprints" poem. I know with all of the things I am going through (post-military deployment stress, the affair, the possible ending of my marriage, no ENs being met for the last year, my kids are a mess from this, moving, financial issues), there is no way that I am still standing except for the fact that He is carrying me. My faith has been severely strained, as it has been blown apart with my WW. She has been such a Godly woman for all of our marriage. that is until this happened and now she cannot trust me or Him because she feels we both let her down. Not reality (of course---the Fog), but her perception. And thus, perception IS reality for her and for us, until that perception can be changed. I guess that is what Plan A is all about. So, I pray almost everyday that He helps my unbelief. I know that He can overcome all of this and repair this, but I also know that we have free will and my WW has already fallen away and has not sought Him for her repentence or reconciliation. She says she waits for a sign from Him, that she really wants to be herself again. but the pain and anger continue to overwhelm her. I guess that is why she wants this "breather" with her moving into an apartment across town. Anyway...just wanted to let you know that I appreciate what you wrote and I am trying to increase my faith in the miracle I hope that He will provide us. Until then, I will remain being carried by Him, for my strength left a long time ago!

Now...an update.....

Last two days have been pretty good with WW. no ENs at all. She called me at work yesterday asking to for all of us (her, me, kids) to go out to dinner last night. I am moving us into our new home tomorrow. I asked her what she was going to do and she said she is still moving (more on that in a minute) but that I said the new home is "our" home, so she wants to move with us until she gets into her new place next week. I told her no problem.

I wrote her a letter yesterday basically outlining what Steve said and the fact that I do not want her to move out, but that if she is so anxious right now and needs some "breathing room" then I would support that as long as she understaood that we were still married, that we are ot act that way and not open ourselves to seeing other people (no EAs/PAs), that we MUST schedule time for us to meet, go out, hangout, talk, maybe even sex, etc in order for us to be able to move forward. She then told me that she had found an apartment and that she was signing a three month lease because "if you get your head out of your *** then I dont want to be stuck with a years lease when I move back." So, the words out of her mouth are all the right ones i want to hear. But, is she just saying them to downplay conflict as she moves on? And if not, if she really means everything she is saying and that she just needs to have a place to go right now to get out of the battle that is our marriage as we try to restore it, then will her being in her own place cause her to pull back and open her to someone else walking in and start meeting needs?

I dont know. Steve again seems to feel that she is just scared, as well as in withdrawal. That if I continue to Plan A and have no LBs, then she will calm down. So, her lease will go through the end of October, which gives me 90 days or so to do the things I have to do to get her to get past her fears. but, will I be able to do that with us living in two different places, with her fulltime job, plus fulltime nursing school. She wont have much free time, which is good when you consider the OM. But, all of her work time at the hospital could open herself to someone there, as they talk, work together, and she has ENs being met that I am not meeting. Her #1 is financial support, and up to yesterday, she said she wants nothing from me. Yesterday, she told me that if I wanted to help, and if I did want to help her out financially, and to help bring down her fears of me hammering her and cutting her off, that we need to work out something where I would help her financially during these next three months. I am going to do that and tell her the amount tonight.

Well, that was long winded. The short of this is if she is what she says she is, then we may just make it. but, being apart is what oppened the A in the first place (when I went to bosnia a year ago) and she still had school and kids, etc and still found a way to open up the affair. i will try to fill what available open time she has with us doing things (we are going to a Creed concert in August and to new York in October for her birthday). I will leave an open invitation for dinner at our house with the kids (kids will be living with me). i am hoping that she will miss being home, talking with me at night (we had a great talk about her work last night...a nightly ritual) and miss the kids.

But, being apart may open the door to her seeing that she really wants to leave. our she already knows that, and is just trying to ease out the door. Of course, I shouldnt worry about that. But, I need to make sure that I can keep up the Plan A stuff so she will want to come home nov 1st.

Any suggestions out there on how I keep us moving forward, and at the same time, give her the space she wants to get things sorted out and calmed down in her head?

In His arms.

It sounds to me like she is scared. I also, see where you are worried that you might be taken for a ride. No one wants to play the role of the fool. I recall in a previous post, you said she was not good at bluffing. Trust you instincts on this.

I think (hope I correct) if she wanted to part, she would have signed a year lease (here you get metter terms the longer the lease).

I don't know what happened that she felt you let her down, so I will try to relate from my own perspective and my own M. My H, when we met, was sweet, considerate, undstanding, helpful, in our talks, we shared the same values, we lived togethre, had a baby, we didn't have much money, he was finishing up his last year of school. He was caring, supportive, protective, since he was bad with $$, he let me handle the finances. (sounds like a wonderful man). After our first was born, same wonderful man, he helped with the baby alot. Second one came, he changed, I was always tired, he was not helping me at all, he was gone every night of the week playing ball, or with the guys, never wanted to take me out, I complained, he met someone else, he left, he wanted back. I felt like I was being sold a Cadillac and received a Pinto instead. It took me two years to trust him enough so that I thought the jerk was gone and what happened was some temporary insanity or something. During that two years, I received the cadillac back. So, we married. Guess what, the Pinto is back. I feel deceived, I feel like I was a fool to trust him again to be the wonderful caring man he used to be. I feel like that once he has me, he does not have to try to please me anymore and that I don't mean anything to him.

I hope this helps explain why she might be scared. She is afraid that things will go well, and she will trust that you two will have that "marriage made in Heaven" only to find out that it was a farce. I know from your perspective, it will be hard, you are hurting, and want her home. You don't want to watch the kids suffer. If she was not in the fog, she would not either. As a mother, my first priority is my kids and I will do all I can to make sure they do not have to endure any unneccary pain and heartache.

I think the open door policy for dinner is a very good idea. Let her know that she is welcome, you miss her, the kids miss her. Don't push it too much, then she will feel guilty. When she is there, show that you are pleased to see her. Think about how your kids greet you when you come home. All excited and happy to see you. It give you warm fuzzy's inside. Show your W, that you are pleased to see her. Sort of like when you first dated. Her time is limited, but try to work with it. Don't express frustration over how she has a full plate. Acknowledge it and ask, what can you do to help? Does she have to work fulltime? I work fulltime, but school is parttime. I fullfilled all the liberal arts courses before I applied to the program. Wanted to reduce the stress level.

I cannot think of anything else. Also, concentrate on making yourself and your kids happy. They need you now more than ever.

You will have a week living with her, so this is a good sign. Take note of how much stuff she moves out that is hers and how much she leaves behind.

Good luck and take care

Thanks Sue. I think you were pretty much correct in your assessment. One thing you did say was you didnt know what it was that my WW thought I was letting her down at. It is the LBs. She told Steve harly yesterday that she is doing this separation because she feels unsafe. Now I can see why if she means that I might take the kids away or divorce her and leave her nothing (my major LBs have been with me getting angry and making threats like this). But she also said she felt physically unsafe. Now, I would never dream of touching my wife that way, so I inquired into why she felt that way. It seems all the PI work done while I was in Bosnia, the fact that her EVERY moment with the OM while I was gone was videotaped and recorded (I have some friends that are very good at these sort of things) and that she feels like now that she knows this that she is constantly being followed...this is what she says makes her feel physically unsafe. Originally, when she said she was going to move into a apartment for awhile, I told her I would help her move. She said "No way...I dont want you planting some recording devices again." I told her that I wasnt the one that did it before (my friends did it on their own to protect me...didnt know about their efforts until I got back) and, it didnt matter anyway. I reminded her that they got video of her and him together in his apartment, and they didnt have a key then. Of course, this made her angry but I told her that I wasnt trying to scare her, just make her understand that I want her to feel safe, to trust me...but that she needed to face reality that sitting in that apartment would not protect her from the things that happened in the past. So, that in a nutshell is why she is moving out for at least 90 days and the major sticking point for us moving forward, according to her and to Steve when I talked to him yesterday.

Now the update...

We moved yesterday. My WW and I moved me and the kids into our new house, and then she and I moved her into her new apartment. During this, we had an appointment with Steve Harley. Afterwards, my WW said she felt very sad but didnt want to talk about it. i think it had to do with the fact that Steve, during their private talk, had begun to sow the seeds that she is going to miss being home with the family, with the kids. And even with me. She even had a few comments like that last night, where she was saying that she might stay at "our" place when I go out of town (that way she can stay there with the kids, instead of having them at her one bedroom studio apartment). She also made a comment about being afraid of being alone and that I might find her at my doorstep. I told her that this was her home and that she is welcome to come and go as she pleases. At one point yesterday, she had run off to school while I was moving things. When she came back, she rang the doorbell. How weird!! I told her that as long as we are married, she is never to do that agin. that this is her home, and she is to treat it as such, even though ALL of her stuff, and half of our stuff, is now across town in an apartment. I told her she is welcome to come to dinner any night, to sleep there any night, to move back anytime she wants. That seemed to calm her down some. As a matter of fact, she wants to help me put the things up and decorate.

Since she has our bed, I told her that I wasnt buying another one and would just sleep in a sleeping bag on the floor until she returned (I am an infantry soldier, so no big deal with that). She said she wish I would go get something and not sleep on the floor, but we discussed going together to buy a new bed to replace the old one she has with her. Again, still keeping things focused on getting her back here within 90 days.

I set up her stuff in her apartment last night, but she still plans on staying with me through the weekend, because of her work schedule (she says). Then sunday, she will finish unpacking.

When I talked to Steve yesterday after he talked to her, he said that she is just scared. That she is in "fight or flight mode." Steve believes that the OM is now completely out of the picture, that she is in withdrawal and that in reality is what is scaring her. But, my LBs help create a sense that she can pin her withdrawal fears on me and will thus cause her to pull back and eventually leave. So, he said, unfortunately I am going to have to be PERFECT for the next little while. So, maybe this separation might be good. because then I dont have to be "ON" all of the time and can concentrate on me, and at the same time be "ON" when she is around. And then just wait out this withdrawal and get to the recovery stage where the real work begins. I dont know...but that is my hope.

I did tell Steve that I am scared that, with her limited time due to her last year of nursing school and her working fulltime, that there will be limited time to deposit anything in the ole love bank. Added to that, maybe at work of the gyn (where she met OM), things might happen with OM again, or a new OM. Again, my fear. But a bigger fear is that with her need for quiet and study time, she may enjoy being alone, and not want the daily hassle of the kids screaming or dealing with me. If she comes back in October, she will be right in the middle of the semester and may not want that hassle. she moved to a little town outside my city, and it is very quiet (her apartment is one of two over a church). she wont have to clean up and do laundry for 5...just one. She wont have to deal with screaming kids at 9pm. All of that. So, that will be the pull I think to stay away, even more than someone else coming in.

But, Steve seems to think that the kids are my biggest asset and it is good that she set things up this way, since she is leaving. With me being a single dad for awhile, I will be able to show her the things she is looking for. Added to that, she will be drawn to be there with the kids as much as possible. So, by leaving the "open door" policy for her, he thinks she will be showing up a lot more than I suspect. she is even talking about SF needs being met, possibly, during this period apart. So, there are some positive signs here that she wants this to work out, but this is the only way that she can see where she can do it without having a nervous breakdown. Steve seems to think so also.

So, I am going to be talking to steve weekly and working on my Plan A, making sure that I am being "perfect." Then he will talk to her again in three weeks, and start "selling" me, where he starts to show the things I have been upto since she left and start to convince her that things have truly changed. then we will continue that pattern through sept and early Oct. Then, the hardsell will come from steve to have her start opening things up, spending time at home (sleeping there if she already isnt by that point), etc. So, by the end of oct when her lease is up for renewal, he thinks she will just say "Here's the ket, I have to go to school...go get my stuff and bring me home."

well, that's it in a nutshell. This is driving me crazy and I still dont trust that she will come thru this (either she starts back up with OM or finds another OM or she decides she likes trying to be 22 again and in college, alone, with no responsibilities). But, I guess I have to just see that if everything works well, this nightmare I have lived over the last year might finally be over in the next 90 days.

So, I will endeavor to be "perfect" and stay on my knees praying. That way the true perfect man can do it for me. A 90 day plan is something I can deal with, instead of this open ended dve been living. Now I have my marching orders and a date that this all will hopefully end. A lot easier to do this way I guess.

In His arms.

Hi Mortarman
I'm always followign your posts, I see many similarities compared to my situation. My advice: Hang in there - you seem to do not too badly. I like the sleeping bag bit - isnt reality sometimes funny, despite all this tragedy?
I see how Harley seems to be able to help you in this situation. Might give it a try myself.
My wife reacts to my spying also very angrily. However, I have to say, that you (& your mates) went a bit over the top maybe, a bit too much cloak and dagger. I wouldnt let any mates into that (the more without you knowing!) - it's too personal.
Take care,
Nick

Hi Mortarman,

yes, her having her own apt, can be scary. She is also a mom, there is a bond there. Remember, I am also in Nursing school. If I did not have kids, things would sure be easier, but, they are my first priority, and that bond will always be there. She will miss them and probably you too.

I hope I am right on this, but the decorating thing, I take that as a positive sign. Unless you are being paid to do so, most women do not decorate someone else's place unless they have a vested interest in it. It is like she wants to set it up to be her place. (Make sense)

She probably rang the doorbell the first time, because she was not sure if she could just walk in. You gave her permission, and told her it is her home. Now she knows where she stands with this move decision. I'm sure she was uneasy about it and wondering if this was going to be the beginning of the end.

This is your opportunity to show her that you can take care of things on the homefront so she can concetrate on her studies. If my H did this, it would be a major deposit in the Love Bank. When she is ready, this is something you could also discuss with her. So she can concentrate on school, who will being doing the household duties. It is tough to keep a house clean, laundry, shopping, kids school schedules, work and your own school work. My own house has suffered greatly. My H, does not give me much help in this area, so I've compromised many things to stay on top of it all.

I hope Steve is correct when he says you will probably see more of her than you think. I know I would give up going to the gym to spend time with my kids.

Take care and I hope to hear good news. Hopefully this is a case of "absence makes the heart grow fonder"

Thanks for the responses and support, Sue and Nick.

Well, I havent posted in a few days because things have gone worse. Last friday night, my WW came back to the house we were staying in (the last night for us to stay in it...we were going to start sleeping in our respective houses on Saturday) and she started to go off on me again. This time was about comments I had made the day before while moving her into her apartment. I had asked her if she could call me at night so I knew that she got in okay from work/school. I also asked if she could call me as much as she can, just so we could talk, I could find out about her day and we can keep moving forward by just being able to be there for each other through conversation. She then comes back last night saying that this is a separation and that I am not going to control her life anymore. That she is going to begin to live her own life.

Wow. I was hit hard here. I had thought that she had moved out because she just felt unsafe with me (see posts above) and that she needed a breather (her word). She said we were going to work on this. I asked her yesterday again for us not to see anyone else while we worked on us. she said in anger today that she wasnt looking for anything right now, but that it was none of my business to demand anything from her.

I told her that her closest friend had told me weeks ago that she was going to separate and that a major reason for it was the OM. She has told Steve and me that he is out of the picture "right now." And has been for about a month. BUT...after watching and hearing all of this and with what her friend says, I think she is trying to make all of this work with him. Maybe by getting out there, officially separating, and then giving him a call and starting things up, she might feel that she can finally make this work between him and her. She has read SAA and knows Jon/Sue/Greg's story. Sue does the same thing in this, only to have Greg leave her because she cant seem to completely leave her husband Jon. Well, it looks like my WW might have fixed that little problem by getting out into her own place (like Sue did) but then going ahead and filing for separation/divorce (she hasnt done so yet). Then she can show OM that she is serious.

When I asked her about all of this, she just replied that he is not involved in any of this, that they havent talked in weeks. She said this is all about her and I. She also said that she does miss feeling happy like she was when she was with him, and that "even though it might not be reality, I want to feel like that again." and she said she does not see how that will happen with her and I.

So, if she is indeed scared like Steve says, then she is running into a huge mistake and opening herself up to things happening with OM. Or, she is firmly commited to her plan of divorcing and is just slowly taking care of things until she is out the door and back into his arms.

Steve still has me in Plan A. But, after what happened the last few days, I feel like this is over...that she is gone. she said yesterday, when I asked her if she thought we could work this out and get her back home, "do you think this is a big temper tantrum? That I would do this as a lark? I told you that, unless something drastic happens between us, that I am headed in the direction of official separation/divorce." So, I feel as if I have been and/or are being played.

I told her that she has made no effort to finding out whether we can make it, especially since I came home from Bosnia in April. She said she did. I told her that all I heard was that she felt "trapped" and that if she could, she would leave. Well, now she can and has. Many times during the last 4 months, she said she was getting closer and that she could start seeing things, only to have things fall back do to my LBs or to contact with OM.

She said that she has to want to come back, want to stay. I told her if that was her stance, then this is doomed. Because want, love, lust will come and go. And she will NEVER want to come back until there is some sort of commitment to finding out. I told her that I didnt want to come back and try to save my marriage when I was in Bosnia. Many parts of me still do not want to keep trying. But I am commited to my marriage and finding out if we can make it work. She has not been.

She seemed to be thinking about this last conversation. She said she never thought of it that way. Then yesterday, during small talk on the phone, she said she had been thinking about what I had said about commitment. I asked her what she thought, but she would not elaborate.

Anyway, I have not tried to call her since she moved in saturday. When she has called, I have just made small talk. She was sort of mad yesterday when she called me and asked what I was upto and I wouldnt tell her. She said "Fine...then dont expect me to let you know what I am doing." Of course, I WANTED to say that she hasnt been letting me know, but I just kept my mouth shut. She called me three times on Monday, just talking about crap. Twice from the ER at work, during her break, just to see "how you are doing." Said she would call me again today. Then set up a dinner with me and her and my son (my oldest two are in Indiana visiting relatives for two weeks). And then she was going to take my youngest for the night to her place after we ate.

So, I am really kind of Plan Aing/Plan Bing. I am initiating no contact and remaining very aloof when she calls me. But, at the same time, when she contacts me, I am very careful not to LB and to try to at least sound somewhat normal (very hard...I am a mess!).

Well, to me I feel like my marriage is over...that she is hellbent on getting out, starting a new life, that may or may not include OM. My faith in this working out has just gone to almost nil. I just dont think she is going to make it. Of course, her continuing to call me from work and during the day confuses me because all of her words and actions show that she is moving away at breakneck speed, but then she still wants to remain in contact.

she told me recently that one of the reasons that her and OM had trouble and that she supposedly wanted to work on us when I came home is that even though I knew about the OM (although at the time she didnt know that I knew), that I still maintained my friendship with her, that I still kept loving her while I was in Bosnia. I would help write her school papers while over there. I would talk to her for hours at 4am. She told me that many times, her and OM would fight, she would come home and call me. Now of course, she was upset but she wouldnt tell me why. She at the time just said it was school or the kids, or financial pressures, etc. And I would smooth things over and the next day, she would go back to see him with her feeling better because I had smoothed things over. She said it was this that undermined them because I was meeting some needs there. She said since I got back, that I havent been like that.

So, I look at her continuing to talk as her probably trying to at least maintain some sort of civil contact with me (so she can feel better about what she is doing) or she still needs me to meet some of her needs until she gets things straightened out in her life, and possibly with the OM. So, again, I feel like I am being taken for a ride. I feel like just going to Plan B and walking, no contact. But steve still thinks I should stay in Plan A for now.

I am so tired of all of this. I dont know what I will do if she ends back with him and they start getting serious again. I feel like I do not have the strength or patience anymore to work on our marriage, especially from a distance. But, if I dont, then it is doomed for sure.

God definitely needs to intervene here VERY soon. otherwise, I dont see things improving and I see the court start doing its thing very shortly.

In His arms.

I don't think she's being honest with you. I don't think she feels safe or comfortable revealing her true feelings or motivations.

I think she wanted to be alone. She told you what you wanted to hear in terms of the separation being short-term -- just so you'd stay somewhat calm about it.

I think she's a conflict avoider.

I think she's pretty iffy about what she tells you about OM and her feelings. It may be off, they may have taken a break, but my gut tells me she has plans for them in the future.

You are pushing so hard for some kind of promise or committment from her -- that I think she feels no choice but to give you a little of what you're asking for. You want so badly to say that this is a temporary separation -- so she says a little of that. You jump on it as confirmed -- then when you push, she hedges and backs away from it.

Just like the whole "promise not to see anyone else during the 3 months". You imposed that. She never actually made that committment. Did she? You said it, and she said something to the effect of "well you either". But she never said "I promise not to see or talk to anyone". Then you come back at her as if its written in stone.

She gave you lip service, got what she wanted (apartment) and is now going to put up her walls and boundries.

You are trying so hard to manage this separation. Setting rules, telling her that you MUST do this and that. UGH.

I would guess that she is feeling pressured. And that she doesn't trust you.

My impression is that you are making Plan A all about her -- kinda forcing it at her. Its making her want to run.

You need to ease off.

Mortarman,

I agree with Lexxxy. Your plan A does not seem to be "breathing". It sounds very rigid with "shoulds" and "have to's". Plan A has to be based on real motivation because our WW are not fooled by anything less. I know you desperately want this marriage to recover but, unfortunately your desperation is showing loud and clear to your WW. If our WW don't "feel the love", anything we say is irrelevant. I have the same problem. My heartfelt words to my WW are lost because of my authoritative manner. I too, believe your W is just telling you what she thinks you want to hear because she doesn't have the courage to tell you the complete truth. She gives you sort of a facsimile of the truth so you don't "go off". I'm sorry to be so candid but I'm saying the same words that I'm saying to you, to myself. I also need to "chill". I hope we can both take heed.

Thanks Lexxxy. it is good to hear from someone from "that side of the fence." I truly do not understand her, why she has done what she has done, or what she is going through now.

You may be exactly right on all of this. She has played the edges on this, only to come back later to change "what she meant." my question is then, is she trying to get out, been trying all along, and just now is getting the opportunity? Or, have I just pushed too hard to try to get things going again, only to scare her and push her away? I have evidence to both of these.

Since she moved out last week and I helped her move in and put all of her stuff up, I have not gone out there, nor have I called. When she has called (which is alot for someone trying to separate...almost three times daily over the last 4 days), I have just kept an even tone...not happy and not sad...and just let her take it where it goes. only the talk on Sunday afternoon, when I talked to her about the fact that she hasnt committed to any kind of reconciliation, even though she says she has tried...this has been the only conversation at least remotely involved with us or our problems or the A.

I am trying to pull back now...Plan B it sort of, except when she makes the effort to contact me.

My question is this...is she leaving, and just playing her cards slowly. or is it more my pressure that is causing her to run? And if it is my pressure, then have I unwillingly pushed her back toward OM and/or divorce?

I want to think that I have just LBed and that is why she is doing this separation. so that is why I continue to work at this, to hold out hope. But, if I am just being played, I want to end this nightmare now.

Anyway, it would be interesting to hear your point of view. i can post my previous two links for my original posts, if you want more of a background.

Thanks again for the info.

In His arms.

Thanks Yank. Yeah, you and Lexxxy have a point here. that is why I have backed off almost completely. As a matter of fact, my WW just called to say that her car was acting up again (it had water in the gas a few weeks ago and I took care of it for her). since I am at work, there is nothing I can do about it, so she was going to take it to a service station. of course, I guess it would have been better if I was there to fix it but I cant be right now.

Anyway, she was discussing with me just now our youngest son who is with me (our oldest two are on vacation in Indiana fortwo weeks). Our youngest was crying last night because it was only his second night in our new house, I was sleeping on the couch (I dont have a bed yet...it went with the wife) and about 3am, he got up looking for me. When he couldnt find me, he started crying. Anyway, I was also sick last night. So the wife asked about that and how our son was. I gave her kind of matter-of-fact answers. I only asked one question of her (how her shift went last night in the ER) and that was it. there was silence on the line for about 30 seconds (I guess she was waiting on me to start up a conversation) and then she said she was pulling into the service station and would call me later.

So, since she has been out, I have made sure (except for a 2 minute conversation at my place Sunday) that I have talked about nothing relevent to our situation, and I have as a matter of fact, been somewhat aloof. I figured by doing this, she would just stop talking to me for awhile as she gets her plans going and her new life. but again, she has called me on average 2-3 times a day since Saturday.

So, what gives? okay, I agree that she has said what I wanted to hear. but why? to let me down easy as she leaves? Or is it that she cant take the pressure I have been giving her and she needs to say anything to get me to back off?

I am lost right now. I too feel like just going a full Plan B and running.

In His arms.

Mortarman,

My feeling is that if you can sustain the "aloofness" as you put it, you will see some improvement. I think she has needed you to back off. Again, if you can sustain that (over time), she will actually start to believe it. She needs to perceive though, that you are "safe". From the tone and content of your post, I definitely get the idea that she is not comfortable with you. I also get the idea though that you can change that. Good luck.

Thanks again Yank. Yeah, I am starting to see this. Steve Harley actually said that he feels that she doesnt feel safe with me.

I really have no choice but to remain "aloof." but how aloof should I be. it is now hard to be in a good mood around her. She has set up us going out to dinner tomorrow night (me, her and our youngest son) and then she is taking him back to her apt for the night. With the way things are, I really dont want to go because it is so hard to look at her and talk to her knowing she is pulling away, considering filing paperwork and possibly pursuing the OM again. again, I think I almost would feel better in a full Plan B.

But Steve wants me to stay in Plan A so she can see the good things. So, if I stay aloof and she begins to feel safe because when we are together, I am not pressuring her or LBing, then this might work out. but there are no guarantees here.

how in the hell do I show a happy-front, where she will want to come around, when I dont feel it and feel like she is leaving me? if she contacts the OM, of course he will be happy. And where would you like to be...with the upset husband or the happy OM?

Just dont know how to handle this now.

In His arms.

Mortarman,

I have tried several times the last few days to send you lengthy posts and managed to have the system eat them. This post won't be lengthy.

Lexxxy and Yank are right. You need to understand some very very simple concepts here.

1. Plan A is for you to work through your stuff not hers. In a thousand lifetimes you won't be able to understand the logic of what she is doing. Why? The logic is based on "feelings" and they change continually. It is like cracking a security code with a constantly changing cyber.

2. There is no doubt that her goal is divorce and to get as much as she can from you. That is the plan and was the plan when you gave her the generous separation agreement. I will bet she also knew that you having sex with her also helped her situation.

3. The OM is not the issue. THe odds are high she won't end up with him, but will use him for her pleasure and as a way out. She will end up with some other guy who will take care of her.

4. You can NOT make a logical arguement that will hold water with her.

Mortarman, I believe these to be true facts. That is the status of the situation right now and that is the plan as I see it. As of now you are out of the picture other than you are the father of her children.

So what is there to do?

1. stop all of the relationship talking with her.

2. Be cordial and nice when you do talk with her.

3. Be upbeat about other things in your life; the children, your job, new neighbors (yup get out and meet them she cannot and won't have time when school starts)

4. Change and I mean really change how you approach relationships, she is a great one to practice on. At this point it is like a target. It doesn't matter if it blows up because it is worthless as you marriage but you may better at this, and who knows you may be able to have a new and better marriage with her or someone else. You need to take the attitude that this is an opportunity to make your life better and approach it with a positive attitude.

Now you are sitting there going, this guy is nuts! I am losing my marriage, my W is lying to me, and she is the love of my life, and this fool is talking about opportunity?

Mortarman, I am going to try and find the short story of a man that posts here. He goes by the board name of K. He is a very very bright guy and started counseling with the Harley's before this board started. His W had an affair which resulted in her becoming pregnant by OM. He plan A'd, he plan B'd, but when she turned up pregnant by OM, he KNEW that this was HIS opportunity to save his marriage and rebuild and that is exactly what happened.

Mortarman, you are a military man, and you were trained as was I, that in combat no matter how bad it gets, there are opportunities to turn the tide. One must be ready for these no matter how bad things look or get. You really need to step back into your training. It is not always about action, but preparation and training.

In this situation, you have not done the preparation or the training so that when the opportunity to turn the tide comes you will be ready. I would strongly urge you to counsel with the Harley's. Their approach is direct and goal oriented. It will fit your approach to life and it may save your marriage.

Please thing about this and quit focussing on your W. You need to prepare and to train, while being cordial to your W. You don't have to be a fool and give away the store nor your children, but you need to prepare.

If I can find the K post I am thinking of (he has 4 or 5 thousand) I will bookmark it for you. He still occasionally posts here.

THink about what I have said.

God Bless,

JL

PS: Here is K' story: K's Story

<small>[ August 06, 2002, 12:14 PM: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</small>