LIR,

How is your Love Bank doing, after all the time you spent with your H. Do the feelings of love get greater?

Hello LIR,

It sounds like it was mostly positive but there was enough negative that I wonder what the net result was for you.

My first suggestion after reading that this is the first time away from the children in 10 years is to recommend that you take 3 days to a week for yourselves together sometime in the next 6 months. After doing my homework here on the MB site, we have set a goal for 3 to 4 times a year for at least 3 days each time. We thought it impossible, but we both want it so bad ( after 5 days in March) that we are making it work. ( 2 days in June, OK, sometimes we compromise)

We have 4 days set aside in late August. We can stay with relatives at night somewhere but we just go there to sleep. All our days are spent out doing things together. We explain that we are there for the two of us, and just using their home to save on expenses, and is this OK? We almost always get a big YES and so we just do it.

We also go camping a lot, costs almost nothing.

Still seeking - you said -I can tell you my wife says many times she prayed and asked " I am tired of this, can I just leave now." - when did she first tell you this and what was your reaction? - it must have hurt you so much to hear this, but how did you take this - were you defensive, or were you remorseful, did you see the truth behind what she said and feel for her, or did you initially feel angry and only later realize how hurt she was? If I said this to my H, (which I wouldn't right now) I think he would just get angry and retort "Well I feel the same way!" When did you get to the place where you could hear this statement and not react with anger?

Let me go back to early 2002. I got on MB Late January and I got excited. I printed out about 50 pages for us to read. After reading I knew this would help me a great deal so I asked W to read it and discuss it with me. After 2 weeks, she had only done a few pages. I tried to discuss and she said " you have hurt me so much that I can't even discuss these things right now." I let it drop for a time. She said later she had no reason to believe I would change, so why waste her time. ( yes, ouch.)

Now, there was a lot of good in our marriage even then. We enjoy parenting together and we love time with our children. We have always been a close family and spend time together. It's just that when your spouse ( me in this case) can and does unload on you often for no reason, you can't be in love. So, kind of had a family partnership without some of the benefits of a great marriage relationship.

Anyway, let's see....... I made some changes and she started to see them. I asked her again in March to read the material. This was the basic stuff. Love bank, giver and taker, POJA, Love Busting, etc.
She read about half of it and we had our first real talk. She asked why I was doing all of this, I responded that I wanted us to be in love, not just raise children together. Towards the end of this talk she made the statement about praying to leave. So it was about 1 1/2 months after I began major changes that she trusted me enough to make that statement. I cried then, did not get angry. I told her I was sorry. I have shed tears about it many times since then. I also told her that I realized that saying I was sorry meant nothing. I told her I intended to prove I was sorry by my actions in the future. She would have never told me if I had not already been doing better.

Why would I do this to someone I loved so much? I think I did not know how to deal with my own feelings and emotions. When I was frustrated, I became angry. It made me feel better (somehow) to lash out at my W and family. There are better ways, but I didn't know about them.

Skip down to this weekend. I have discussed this thread with her. I asked her how many times I have lost my temper since January and she said " 8 or 10" I asked how many last year for same time period and she said " almost daily" Note that these are not just the really bad ones, she is including the times I get angry and say disrespectful things that hurt her feelings.

I have some suggestions about you but I will come back -

SS

<small>[ August 05, 2002, 01:44 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Hi there -

I'm going to have some time today, so I'm going to come back to ss comments later in the day, when I know I'll have a longer period of undisturbed time, OK?

Dreamland - good question, and one which didn't occur to me to ask myself - shows how muddled I am, I think. The answer is - my LB is pretty empty, even after the w/end. Although I enjoyed spending time with him, and I noticed a lot of good things about how we spent the day together, I still don't feel any closer or intimate emotionally. The good things were - we held hands a lot and he held on to mine, instead of letting go and pushing my hand away, which he sometimes does. He was very agreeable to doing things I wanted and suggested doing - like taking the time to look through an "old book" market, without pushing me to go, and going to the restaurant I suggested - he also let me decide which rooms I wanted to visit in the huge museum we went to, and only went to the one he wanted to see at the end - I did ask him what he wanted to see, because I wanted us both to be happy, but he said he was just happy wandering through where I wanted to go. The phone thing at the end, when we were on our way home on the train - that was my choice to bring up that issue, so I have to take some responsibility if I am not altogether happy about the results - is that right? - I am going to talk to my counselor about this tonight. When we got home, we were both tired, and I cleaned up the kitchen, which was a mess, because I knew he had to get up and go to work early in the morning - he said I didn't have to do that, but I said I knew he got upset when there was no clean space for him to make breakfast for himself - maybe this came out me sounding like a martyr, but I didn't mean it to sound like that (that's what I mean when I say I could learn to communicate better) - I was doing that because I was trying to give him something he needed and that was important to him (he hates having to get up early and run out the door to drive 1 1/2 hrs, so being able to find his way around the kitchen early is helpful to him) - probably also, I didn't want to have to deal with any of his frustration if he happened to find it dirty. When we went to bed, we were both tired, and we didn't make love - I really didn't feel like it anyway. Its just that there is so much I am holding back, that I am watching everything very carefully, and talking is what would really fill my love bank. Quality time is also high on my list of ENs and this is the kind of time with him I want, but I also need talking to feel able to trust that the time together is going to be "worth it"? Wierd?

We have had nice times together - going to the beach - a couple of things I didn't like, which seem minor, but which have made me snap back into my shell. Will go into those later. Have to get off computer and do some errands and will come back later this afternoon.

Thanks for checking up on me - how are things with you? Haven't crashed your car yet? No dings? Just teasing!

LIR

LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> No dings yet. My WW takes the car out on short errends quite a bit. I get scared!! My sweet precious baby is gone and I am scared. My Poor CAR!! LOL LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Just kindin'

It takes quite a bit of effort to get the love bank back up to a good "safe" level. Probably what you experience is identical to what your H experiences. Here is typical scenario (for me too). Go out on nice outing and talk, hold hands, etc. = love bank deposit of 10 points for you and him. Have a great dinner and conversation = love bank deposit of 10 points for you and him. One negative question = love bank withdrawal 20 points. Back at zero.

Additionally, when your love bank is at a zero level, negativity is magnified and makes greater withdrawals then if your love bank is full. The same thing goes with positive things and deposits. The more filled your love bank is the more each EN is worth. This is the love bank multiplication/division factor. Sooner or later, someone in the relationship will have to take the higher ground (as you have been doing) and lead the couple back into the feeling of love. Quit expecting good things out of your H. You know how he is, and you know how he acts, so do not let that influence you. DO NOT NAG HIM OUT OF HIS LOVE FOR YOU. Do not wait for him to better himself before you take an active role in bettering your marriage.

What active roles are you taking in filling his EN's? Your desire for conversation may be an important EN for you, but is it for him? Are you living your life vicariously when it comes to EN's? Work on filling his EN's and wait for his love bank to increase. As his love bank increases, he will be more interested in filling your EN's. Once you begin to make deposits, do not make withdrawals. (It seems like you both are balancing right on zero love banks.) This is not always the best way to approach marriage, but it will work provided he lets you fullfill his EN's. If his greatest EN is SF. Fullfill it and make it very passionate and different each time. Buy sexy lingerie, etc. I will let you think of things here.

That is why I asked the love bank question. If you dwell on the negative, negativity seaps out of your pours. You can not stop it. It leaks out of your facial expression and every once in a while, it leaks out of your mouth. I know because I tend to do this myself. I can pretend all I want, but my heart lets itself be heard.

IMHO: Big changes are required here. (for me too) You need let go of all your negative feelings about him. You harbor resentment for how he has treated you and continues to treat you. This leaks out in your everyday life and contanimates everything you touch. It spoils your view on life. I know because I too suffer from this illness. Negative thoughts bread negative actions. Think positively and change your attitude about your husband and your life and you will affect everything around you in a very positive way. Seek God for strength in doing this. Turn over your burdens to Him. Our time on earth is too short to let the little things bother us (yes our spouses actions are little things in the grand scheme of life). Do not let your H spoil your view on life.

Dear LIR

Have been "lurking" around your thread and am glad to see that you spent some good quality time together. Don't despair of never feeling anything positive about him again - after what you have experienced, I would be worried if you did feel love immediately! Can really relate to this, sometimes!

I was really interested to read Dreamland's post on Love Busting - something I am often guilty of. I have the best of intentions, but when things are going well, the negatives seem to attack me! I will be back to re-read his explanation when I am feeling the weakness next!

Hope you begin to see the fruits of all your labours! Keep going!
Fishwife

OK, I said I'd be back and here I am - hey , Dreamland - I was wondering if you trusted your wife with the car - I mean, this IS your CAR we're talking about - you must REALLY love your wife! LOL How do you get those smiley faces to go in the right places, by the way?

Point taken about negativity and holding on to resentment - yes, I think that would be very relevent in a "normal" relationship - but I am not sure that is what I am dealing with here - i am still trying to figure out what is going on with us. My gut feeling is that my H's behaviour is abusive - the plain fact is that there is nothing I can do about that - HE has to take responsibility for himself and CHANGE - I CANNOT change him. I can fill his EN's until the cows come home and it would make no difference until and unless he recognizes that the way he treats me is wrong and decides to change himself. I have actually been working on changing myself over the last 3 years - I have eliminated the displays of frustration and anger I used to have (big blow ups - usually caused by some form of abusive behaviour on his part, and I would react to be treated this way with anger and raging), I have eliminated calling him names (which I used to do during these rages), I have improved enormously in the way that I handle the children (much more patient and respectful - less commanding), I have made passionate love to my H, got an IUD so there was no barrier to SF if/when he wanted it (I made a commitment that I would never say no), I have sent him cute and funny cards, I have written him letters, I have complimented him every day, I have tried to engage him in RC of various kinds, I have got a job, cut my hair, lost weight, wear makeup now which I didn't used to, worked on organizing the house, bought new clothes which he likes (he was always critical of my dress sense), I have tried to learn to articulate things in a different way (not be accusing, present my feelings as just that - my feelings), and although he appreciates the changes, it has not influenced him to change at all. I don't see any change in his aggressive behaviour. I see him going to counselling. I don't know what they talk about or anything - he still does not share with me any of his thoughts or feelings about anything at all. He is still argumentative and antagonistic with me. He still brings me down in front of the children. He still does not take responsibiltiy for his behaviour. When I say I need to make changes - its for me, not him. I desperately want MC because I feel that only a 3rd party will be able to tell him the things he needs to hear.

I said there were a couple of small things that happened that slammed me back in my shell.
One happened yesterday - we were finishing dinner, and planned to go to the beach afterwards (the evenings are still very light here) - YS was struggling to finish his food - H took his spoon and spoon-fed him a full mouthful (too much) - YS chewed and chewed - H was rushing him and loaded the fork with another big bite, prepared to aim for his mouth again. I spoke up and said "He's still got a mouthful," NOT in an angry way, just pointing this out. H looked at me and said "I'M handling this - he doesn't need 2 of us!"

Well, this upset me - it brought back the incident last week when he ordered me out of the room in front of the boys - my upset showed on my face and I took my plate (empty) and left the table and went into the kitchen to wash dishes. "Uh, OH!" he said "Mummy's getting MAD again!" IMO this was totally wrong - the boys may not have noticed that I was upset - I was trying to hide it - I certainly was not going to have an angry outburst in front of them. But H made sure they knew it - he ridiculed me in front of them - he also "put me in my place" again in front of them.

Its totally wrong that he should belittle me and degrade me in front of my sons in this way.

Today, he was out all morning and came back for lunch. He walked in - we had already eaten our sandwiches - I had made a salad for lunch which I knew he liked - I had made us p-nut butter sandwiches because I knew he hates p-nut butter - I left the sandwich ham for him (I didn't check to see how much was left in the pkg). OS had been waiting all AM to ask him where a certain special set of bricks was - H had put them away bcos he doesn't want boys playing with them (?) - OS asked me earlier where they were - I told him I didn't know, he would have to ask Daddy. So when H comes home, OS asks him where they are. "I don't know," says H. He doesn't want OS to have them. "But Mummy told me I had to ask you - she said you knew where they were!" H says "I don't know. Right now I want my lunch!" OS starts to protest again. H yells at him from the kitchen "If you want to argue, go find someone else to argue with!" I don't think this is a reasonable or polite or considerate way to treat your own son who asked a perfectly innocent question. I was in the kitchen and I said (in a very quiet voice) "I don't think that was a very nice thing to say to him." H didn't answer me. I went to sit down in other room. OS looks into kitchen and makes a face, mocking H behind his back (OS doesn't know I saw him). H says "What is there to put in the sandwiches?" I say, "There's some ham in the fridge." H comes back holding up one small piece of ham "Is this all?" "Well," I say "We didn't have any - I didn't know there was only one piece left." H rounds on me. "You don't have to get angry - why are you looking at me like that?!" "Like what?" "You're looking at me in a very aggressive manner - it's totally unneccessary!" He says this in front of the boys. Again he has started demeaning me in front of my boys.

I go upstairs to get out of his way. I have to do some errands and prepare to go out. He and I end up alone in the hallway. I think to myself that I have a right to say what I think about the way he is behaving and how he treats me, as long as I express myself politely. I say "You know, you don't have to act in that aggressive manner." He says "What do you mean?" I say "Earlier. You were aggressive to both me and OS from the minute you walked in the door." He said "You shouldn't look at me like that - with that angry look on your face." I said "I have a right to have feelings about how you speak to us and how you treat us and I don't have to like how you speak to us and treat us." He said "Well you were looking at me funny - and the children see the look on your face." I said "If you don't like what I say, the normal thing to do is talk about it afterwards, when the children are not present, but you started taking me to task in front of them." "Yes, because they see the look on your face, too."

Now - is it as clear to everyone else that he is simply not taking responsibility for himself? Yes, I was angry - he was right - I had an irritated expression on my face - I CANNOT just radiate love and kindness towards him when this is happening all the time.

My only option if he does not change is to leave him. I can't leave him right now because I can't support myself. I'm working on trying to put together ways to increase my income, both in the short-term and the long-term. My H does not make a lot of money, so he would be in a very bad position were I able to force him to leave the house - he would not be able to afford his own accommdation - he would probably have to move in with a friend. Right now he does not even pay a mortgage because we own our house, so I doubt that there would be a lot for child support. I am trapped in a very tough practical place right now. Well...that's the hard reality of it. Sometimes its hard to be positive. I have expended a lot of emotional energy since last June and I guess I don't have a lot left.

I don't know what's going to happen, but right now, I'm just trying to stay out of harms way.

Dreamland - I really do appreciate your help - you always have good things to say to me and I don't mean to sound like I don't think I can benefit from your ideas - I am sure that I can - I just find it hard to grapple with sometimes.

LIR

Hi ss - thanks for coming back and checking on me -

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My first suggestion after reading that this is the first time away from the children in 10 years is to recommend that you take 3 days to a week for yourselves together sometime in the next 6 months. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would really like this - this is high on my list of "resentments" - H not wanting to spend time with me - our vacations have always been spent with friends - friends who monopolize his time bcos he's the exciting talented one. Has made me wonder why he ever married me if he never wanted to spend time with me after our honeymoon. Was it that bad? Mostly its bcos of money - but I watch him budget for other things so we could make this a priority if we wanted to. H has enjoyed going out alone so I guess there's still hope.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We have 4 days set aside in late August. We can stay with relatives at night somewhere but we just go there to sleep. All our days are spent out doing things together. We explain that we are there for the two of us, and just using their home to save on expenses, and is this OK? We almost always get a big YES and so we just do it.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">VERY good idea - we have friends who have offered to take the kids while we go away for a few days together - have to take them up on this.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We also go camping a lot, costs almost nothing. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Another good idea. We LOVE camping!

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Now, there was a lot of good in our marriage even then. We enjoy parenting together and we love time with our children. We have always been a close family and spend time together. It's just that when your spouse ( me in this case) can and does unload on you often for no reason, you can't be in love. So, kind of had a family partnership without some of the benefits of a great marriage relationship. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sounds so much like us.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So it was about 1 1/2 months after I began major changes that she trusted me enough to make that statement. I cried then, did not get angry. I told her I was sorry. I have shed tears about it many times since then. I also told her that I realized that saying I was sorry meant nothing. I told her I intended to prove I was sorry by my actions in the future. She would have never told me if I had not already been doing better.

Why would I do this to someone I loved so much? I think I did not know how to deal with my own feelings and emotions. When I was frustrated, I became angry. It made me feel better (somehow) to lash out at my W and family. There are better ways, but I didn't know about them. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I cried for you when I read this, ss. I see my H's pain, too - I know he doesn't know how to be different and I am the one who has witnessed the humiliation his parents subject him to - so I still feel for him. I really hand it to you for making the most profound changes - this is so hard to do, but with God's help, you are doing it. I know that God loves my H, too and pray for his release from this prison every day.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Skip down to this weekend. I have discussed this thread with her. I asked her how many times I have lost my temper since January and she said " 8 or 10" I asked how many last year for same time period and she said " almost daily" Note that these are not just the really bad ones, she is including the times I get angry and say disrespectful things that hurt her feelings. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think that if your wife is happy with your progress, that's the best thing in the world - she is the one who loves you and lives with you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I have some suggestions about you but I will come back -</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ready when you are!

LIR

Outrageous! I finally managed the BF editing WITH quotes!

LIR <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Dear Fishwife,
Thanks for the words of encouragement - I hope you are doing OK - you sound better - yes, I have wondered if I "sabotage" things when things are going well, too. Am looking at this in counselling, too. Why have you called yourself Fishwife? Is it too embarassing to say? I know its something my H would have been happy to call me in the past. LOL

LIR <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Hi LIR,

I agree that it is abuse. Before I make any more comments, I would like more info.

I have not gone back and read your history, could you re-cap what has happened or point me to it?

It looks like from the EA or from his abuse you asked him to leave this spring. He is home now, so either he quit EA or be began counseling and that was enough to let him stay?

Mostly I am wondering how you got from there (when you must have fourced the issue and been having relationship discussions,) to where you are now where it seems you are reluctant to discuss anything because of his anger - or he refuses to talk civially if you bring it up. What has happened in the last 4 months? As I said, if you have a thread where it is all discussed, I am willing to read it, just point me to it.

Lady, there is alot of hope for both of you, don't get discouraged. Don't let all of the bad get to you.

SS

Hi there -
I'm back from my counselling appt, which was helpful. My counselor said she has discussed things with her supervisor and they both agreed that we should seek some couple counselling ASAP - she said they both felt that this could be an escalating situation and it was important to try to stop the cycle before things got too bad - she said it seemed that right now, things are reaching a point which is nearly intolerable, that it was bad for me and bad for the children. I already know this, but it was good to hear the counsellor confirm this. Since my H won't take suggestions from me, I can now go back to him and propose MC in this way - she helpled me figure out how to say it in a non-confrontational way. (The only thing I don't like is that she says their policy is to not do individual counselling while the couple are in couple counselling - "things can get too muddled"). We decided that if i want to approach my H, I can put it like this - "My counselor has spoken to her supervisor and they have both agreed that, having done some individual work, couple counselling would be desirable and beneficial to us both at this stage. Since I feel that I would like to continue individual counselling, she would be happy to continue working with me after we have had some couple counselling." This gives my counsellor some authority in the decision-making process and also demonstrates my willingness to continue individual counselling. I didn't know that they wouldn't continue IC while you are in MC, so this may explain my H's resistance to MC right now - I kind of feel that I really want my H to continue the IC if that's what he really needs, but if he does that, maybe we need to work out some clear boundaries. I will be willing for him to stay in IC if he agrees not to belittle me in front of the children and no violence.

To answer your question ss - the short story is that last June, 2 days after returning from the States for my B's funeral), I found out my H had developed a personal R with another (quite young) woman - I found a letter he had written to her saying he couldn't imagine his life without her in it (never sent the letter, but it was clear that they had talked about their feelings for each other) - they talked by cellphone and TXT msg almost daily. I started plan A (did not know about MB) and eventually intervened by going to her father. Father (H's friend) asked my H not to involve his D in our "marriage problems" - I believe H respected his wishes and ceased communications w/ her. Unbeknownst to me, he transferred affection pretty soon afterwards to 21 yr old grad student - met her at university choir rehearsal (my H is a very talented musician - H will ALWAYS have young women goggle-eyed over his talent hanging around - hazard of the trade). Met with her after rehearsal for a drink every week throughout the autumn and into the new year - I found out in Feb - 2 months after my SIL suicide - devastated - ended up in a fight with my H and punched him - things very bad then, but both of us still reaching out for each other - he still affectionate - he continued EA with OW2 - by Easter they were calling each other "my beloved" - a game for her, I believe - she fully intended to go home in June to live with BF - a week before Easter, I did "go to plan B" I asked him to leave - that was when he got himself into counselling. I told him I would stay while he worked on his "bullying" which I said was the "real" problem. It is. OW2 went back to home country end of May. H exploded at me that wend - I pushed his buttons - big mistake - he was SCARY. Apologized next day. Since then, things are tense on and off and H still v testy at times - and v resistant to MC - can be v explosive - part of withdrawal? - not affectionate like he was before Easter - don't know if still in contact with OW2. I was able to check his e-mail a/c once and saw no e-mails saved from her - but he could delete them as soon as he gets them. Hmmm...will try to get old threads for you - but I was under a different name then and wanted a new one in case H looked over these boards. Dreamland knows my old name - maybe ask him? I'm scared to put my old name up here, since I've told H about MB now.

Thanks so much - I do still have shreds of hope, I'm just not very bubbly these days. I think my H really does want to work on things - thats what he tells other people. I just don't know if he's strong enough to face himself yet. We may go visit the IL's in two weeks - that will be another hurdle to get over.

LIR

BTW, I know your old name also, and I remember reading some of your posts, reading, reading . . . .

Just got off the phone with a friend of ours (wife) who we've known for a few years. My H has apparently called and left a few messages - she was getting back to him - she knows we have been having problems - I ended up in a very heated "conversation" with her - she said that I had to be more loving, and that my aggression was still a factor in our problems - that if I basically "showered him with love" he would change - this is a view I have got from one of our other close friends - I mentioned her above - well, this friend's H, she freely admits, has hit her a lot in the past - she says they have learned how to live with each other and her H always came back seeking "tenderness" - several years ago this same friend told me I wasn't giving 100% to being a mother - why do I continue to talk to these people? I feel like so many people blame me for my H's behaviour - he is SO special that it must be the way I am being in the R that provokes him. I just can't stand this. When I told her that I no longer react with anger, that I say nothing, turn away - she said "turning away is still am angry reaction - you need to love him". I can't love my H when he treats me like that. I am sick of being told I am the failure in this marriage - you know - what's happening is I am finally speaking up and telling the truth about how he treats me and people don't want to know - they hear the anger and frustration in my voice and preach love, and all I can hear is the preaching. I am sick of being preached at about love. Love has kept me here. Love is my two feet standing in the same room with my H. Love is the self-control I show. Love is waiting for him to change. Love is perseverance. Love is the kindness and consideration I show him. Love is the patience I have for him. Love is the compassion I feel for him knowing how much he has suffered. Love does not say I should accept being treated this way. I am a human being. I get angry when I'm mistreated. I am not a saint. I am an imperfect lover. I don't have to be perfect to be loved back. I don't have to love perfectly. I love. There are a lot of things I'm sure I could do better. Telling the truth is hard. Love tells the truth.

This is my rant and is not directed at anyone at MC - from you I am happy to take "preaching". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> But how do I handle these "well-meaning" friends?

Interesting that this friend said H has never talked about me in a negative way and has only said that the problems between us were because he fell in love with some other women. He firmly denied that he was in love with OW to me. I also told her that if that was the only problem, it would be OK - that I considered falling in love with other people a hazard of life - its how you deal with it that counts - and my H has reacted to me with violence and abuse, instead of trying to resolve things with me compassionately, and THAT is the real problem.

LIR

Shoot, I was going to come back and say it is all your fault, but I was waiting until you were not close to anything you could throw.

I better not do it now, would be unkind.

I'm still reading.

Ss

PS, next time, you could slap her across the face, and then tell her if she was nicer to you, you wouldn't do it any more.

Do I get an A?

<small>[ August 06, 2002, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

<small>[ August 06, 2002, 08:09 PM: Message edited by: dreamland ]</small>

I am so so so so so sorry. You are dealing with an entirely different issue. You always said that he was abusive, but I never really grasped the severity until your recent post.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <<by the way, the Graemlins can are just text commands and can be copied and pasted anywhere in the text>> You sound like a great catch for any man. I wish my WW put forth 1/10th of the effort in our M as you do. I just do not understand my situation.

I am assuming by your posts that he has always been like this. If not, he is dealing with some "hate" issues with you. (I am not sure). What he is doing IS abusive. You do not deserve this behavior, and (IMHO) you should protect your children from this behavior and yourself.

We all do mean things occassionally that we are ashamed of. It seems like he is one of those that is mean way too much.

Your H should be able to support himself. After all, he is your husband. If can not support himself, how can he be your "husband". Is not the definition of husband include support. Maybe it is time he grew up and faced reality.

Sorry about talking so much about myself. Your description of your H's actions made be realize that my WW is somewhat the same.

Sorry again for my mistake.

<small>[ August 13, 2002, 05:32 AM: Message edited by: dreamland ]</small>

I'm only online 5 more minutes max - H home at 10;30 - 10;20 here - going there now -

thanks guys - hey, I'm not that bad! At least, not any more!

LIR

<small>[ August 08, 2002, 01:15 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

Hi LIR,

I intended on a reply to you today before I leave on business. I don't have enough time to complete it so it will be delayed. Didn't want you to think I don't care. Will be back sometime Monday.

SS

Thanks ss - that was a very considerate and thoughtful note to leave me!

I will also be home until about the 19th of Aug - then away the last 2 weeks - will be visiting my H's parents <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> 4 days only - my H is home with me on vacation so I will be hopping on and off the computer as best I can so if i don't show up that's why.

We went to the beach this AM and I presented the ideas to him, as discussed with my counselor yesterday (H is downstairs teaching so I can't talk right now) - H was calm and considerate in the way he listened to me, and was reasonable in his response - he may not be ready to start MC right now, but wants me to check out couple counselling availability through our Catholic Church area "just to find out" - H also presented to me plan to visit his parents and asked if plan was acceptable to me - he has planned it so that we only spend 4 full days with them (when we first married I told him my limit was 3 days at a time with them - major bone of contention in marriage is his increasing time with them year on year until 2 years ago, he gave them the whole of our 12 day vacation time, without my agreement) - H was respectful in the way he talked to me about this - I felt that I could disagree if I wanted to - this is the first time I have not felt pressured by him to agree. So today was a good day - with positive signs.

Hope your trip is productive in the way you want it to be.

Thanks for taking the time with me.

LIR