Hey LIR,

It sounds like your H is receptive.

I will check in with you tomorrow. I have a dinner date with WW tonight. I am exited.

Thanks for your help.

Lounge Lizard. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> LOL

Ok, it's Sunday, so I'm home alone with the kids all day until tonight - so this is an update. Things seem to be going reasonably well, although I've had some anxiety about OW - triggers, I think and just nerves.

So here's the update.

I thought the conversation on the beach went well. I presented him with the suggestion for couple counselling just as my counselor had suggested I word it - "My counselor has discussed things with her supervisor and they have both agreed that couple counselling would be both beneficial and desirable at this stage. But it is their policy not to do individual counselling at the same time, so if we decide to go to couple counseling right now, we would have to stop the IC for the time being. They say that they do that because they feel things can get too muddled with 3 counselors involved. I told her that I wanted to continue IC with her, and she said that she would be willing to continue counselling me again after we had done some couple counselling, which is what I would like to do. I know that you said you were still working on some things in your IC, and if you feel you still need some time with your IC before we do some couple counselling, then I am willing to wait a little longer, but if we do that, then I think we need to make some agreements with each other about things."

He took this very well - he seemed to mull it over and said he thought this was a good plan and he would think about it. The counselling service we are with says they do not have someone available right now that can do some couple counselling with us, but they feel confident in recommending us to Relate, in our area - my H is not totally keen on this idea, since they are not specifically Christian, so he has asked me to check out the Catholic Marriage Advisory Service, which would involve us making a half-hour drive to our appt every week - he doesn't like that idea - well, we'll see. The important thing is that he seemed receptive. He then presented to me the plan for going to visit his parents, which, like I said, he presented in a way I felt I could disagree with. I felt like I could disagree with the plan without him getting mad at me. I didn't disagree with it because it was acceptable to me. The reason I don't like spending time with his parents is because I hate watching them abuse him - ridiculing him, calling him names, needling him, pressuring him, making him feel guilty. The last thing my H's parents say to us as the car is pulling away from the curb is always "Next time make it for longer!"

---So, cut to Thursday - we went out with friends, and took 2 cars - our boys decided they wanted to ride with them for awhile, so H and I found ourselves alone in our car. H opened a conversation, saying, "I think that it would be a good idea, when 1 of us is disciplining YS, for the other to stay out of it - he is very sensitive and doesn't need both of us breathing down his neck at the same time."

I said "I agree. But I also think the most important thing is that we should not undermine each other in front of the children."

I waited for him to say something and he then agreed with me. He wanted to discuss that I shouldn't interfere with his discipline. I pointed out that sometimes I was backing him up when I spoke up, not interfering with him, but if he felt this was too much, I wouldn't do it.
He brought up how I had told him the other day that I thought he shouldn't have spoken to OS the way he had. He saw this as a criticism made in front of the child. I said I had said what I said in the other room softly enough for child not to hear me.

I then said that I thought the way to discipline the children was to speak respectfully to them even as you were asking them to do what you wanted them to do. I didn't think he had been fair with OS and that he had been rude and aggressive to OS. I told him OS mocked him behind his back in the other room. I told him I didn't let OS know I had seen him mock his father, because I didn't want OS to think that I agreed with this. I knew it would hurt my H to hear this, but I thought this was something painful he should hear. He loves his sons and it means a lot to him that they look up to him. He does not realize how much he has fallen in their eyes through his behaviour these last 6 months. They both challenge his authority and argue with him a lot more than they used to - they are openly defiant a lot. He doesn't realize it is because they are losing their respect for him. I want him to wake up to this, but I don't know how to get him to see this. (With me, they are obedient and affectionate - constantly hugging me. I took them all the way to Paris this month alone - a long journey on lots of different public transport and they were obedient - I never had to threaten them for unruly behaviour.)

When I told him this, he was very quiet. I think it was earlier in the conversation, when we talked about not undermining each other, I also said that I felt he undermined me in front of them, and used the example of when I left the table the other night and he mocked me ("Uh, oh, Mummy's mad again"). I said I felt that when he did that he was degrading me in front of them.

Perhaps I shouldn't have said what I said - maybe I used what could have been a conversation that could have made him feel closer to me, if I had agreed with him all the way, to tell him "what he was doing wrong". So maybe it wasn't such a good move. He went pretty quiet and we didn't talk more, but it didn't turn into an argument - he didn't get mad.

Well - these last few days, I have been building in anxiety - he has been going out a lot "to practice" - he has a recital coming up and yes, he DOES have to practice a lot away from home - this is legitimate. It's just that this is how he used to meet up with OW and have drinks with her - used to say he had stuff to do and managed to see her, as well as do his legitimate stuff. So my tiny mind has started to get anxious all over again - what if she has come back to visit friends for a week? what if she's here visiting? - I know H didn't use his cellphone to contact her in France when he was there a couple of weeks ago, but what if she's visiting and has "just looked him up while she's here? - he seems awfully happy, which is suspicious to me - I can't tell if he is happy because things are going a little better with me or whether its because she's on the scene again? The urge to snoop rears its ugly head and I start "churning" inside with all my thoughts. I feel I have to have a "R talk". Have to. Have to.

But I have been trying to do work on myself, too and have got myself some books to read - I am reading "What you feel, you can heal" by John Gray. And I also got "Why men can't listen and women can't read maps". I try to put some different techniques into use - yesterday morning, anxiety weighing very heavily on me, I said "Would you have time to talk with me today?" he said "What do you want to talk about?" I said "I need to talk about us. I need to talk about our plan for moving forward. I don't have to talk right now. But you say when." He said "Sure, I would like to talk, but right now I have to take a shower and have some breakfast. I'll get back to you later."

I breathed a sigh of relief. I was surprised - this went like a textbook "Mars and Venus" approach. Then I started panicking - what was I going to say and how was I going to say it. I couldn't lose my cool and hit him with any accusations or get too overemotional and try to stuff too much into the conversation. I would have to limit myself and try to be constructive. What could be constructive? What I really want is to just feel connected to him emotionally. I am afraid he is seeing OW and I am also working on trying to get us to behave respectfully towards each other. I will feel better about "feeling connected" is he just shows he cares enough to talk to me. So how about the other point. I decide I will try to find something from MB for him to read, and I will say "Building on what we were talking about the other day, about showing respect for each other in front of the children, what I really need to talk about is how we can achieve this. I have found something that I think is very practical and that I think has helped me a lot, but I think I could do better if I could have some feedback from you about this. Would you read this and tell me what you think? I don't think we have to talk all the time about how we feel about each other. This seems to me to be a very practical approach, and I would like your opinion."

I have printed out "How to Overcome and Abusive Marriage: Why do People Who love each other fight so much? Letter No. 6; The Three States of Mind in Marriage: Withdrawal; How One Spouse can lead another back to Intimacy; A Summary of Dr Harley's Basic Concepts; Love Busters; The Parable of the Net; and the article "Caring for Children Means Caring for each other".

Looking at all this, it looks like too much to give him all at once. I really want to give him the abusive marriage one, the 3 states of mind one, and perhaps the caring for children one - because this woman I have mentioned before - the close friend who tells me he would respond to me if I had the Holy Spirit - she keeps telling me (and him) that we have to stay together because of the children - she says I have to stop thinking about my own selfish feelings and admit that our marriage is dead, and start thinking about the impact on the children - she says we have to sit down and talk about how we are going to go on for the sake of the children - she says I have to pray for a resurrection of our marriage. Well, quite frankly, this kind of advice really upsets me.

First of all, this friend, I believe, had an EA with my H many, many years ago - this is one of the problems at the root of our marriage, which I hope we can deal with in counselling -at least, its what I need to deal with in my IC - how come I married someone who was having an EA with someone else who was married - I know, its complicated - too complicated. So I don't trust her when she says I have to admit my marriage is dead. Why do I talk to her about my marriage? Good question. Again, part of my IC. I have been very muddled in my thinking about this one. First - she, and her family are very strong Christians (even Christians can have EAs - perhaps Christians are even more mixed up about their passions because as long as it stays non-sexual, they can justify it as 'true friendship" - this seems to be the case with my H) - I guess I saw them as a balance to my H's abusive parents. She offered me her friendship and I wanted to be forgiving and non-judgemental. I felt like she supported our marriage. She certainly has done everything she can to try to keep us together.

I just don't like her logic, or the slant of her beliefs. I also think she idealizes my H, so sometimes I tell her what my H has done to try to get her to take off her "rose-coloured" glasses. I am also afraid of her power over my H - I try to counteract that by keeping her on my side, too. Well, here I go psychoanalyzing again, and this is where I have a problem - this is my co-dependency in action - here i am busily trying to sort through everyone elses confused emotions - I married into this (to be honest - not entirely knowingly) - what was wrong with me that I couldn't let go of this R 16 Y ago?

But back to the articles - I don't believe it is enough to stay together for the sake of the children. I firmly agree with Dr H - that it is vital to love each other so that the children see a healthy R - we are struggling to stay together for the sake of our children and our children are not seeing a healthy R at this point. This is damaging to them rather than giving them what they need. So I believe we have to recover our love for each other if we are to stay together, not just agree to be civil to each other and admit that our M is dead. I also don't believe I have been selfish and thinking only of my own feelings. The bottom line is what she says upsets me and since I know she expresses these views to my H as well, I feel I have to counteract them somehow.

Sheesh, this is getting TOO LONG!

Anyway - back to the basics - so my H got in the shower and later that morning, we were both in the kitchen, the boys were upstairs and he was washing the dishes (!) - he said "So what did you want to talk about?"

I took a big breath and said 'Well, I wanted to talk about our plan for moving ahead"

He smiled and said "I thought we made a good start on that the other day."

"Yes, I thought we did, too," I said.

OS came downstairs and went into the bathroom, then came out and settled himself down to watch TV in the next room. So our conversation went instantly on hold.

After a few minutes, I said "Well, I had more I wanted to say, but I can't now, so right now I'm feeling frustrated."

"I know," he said, very reassuringly "I'm sorry, that was my fault." He seemed to mean that we would continue later but that he was still willing to talk.

So we haven't had a chance yet to continue that talk, and I haven't given him anything to read yet, but I felt good about his responses to me. He seems willing to talk and showing positive signs.

Boy is this long - sorry about that. I guess I'm a typical female - it all churns around in there at the same time. You guys out there could teach me alot about how to communicate with guys. I think you guys out there can also see from this post that I have EVERYTHING multi-tracking in my head at the same time - past relationships / current status of past relationships / potential relationships / effect on children / how I got into this mess / what is he really thinking / what are the best tactics for getting through to him / what am I going to say and how am I going to say it without him thinking I am attacking him / ...and last might there be a chance we could still love each other?

When he responds to me, I don't feel like our R is dead at all, but that we do have a chance to change.

Sorry for the length of this. Will be really impressed if anyone wades through this!

LIR

<small>[ August 11, 2002, 05:21 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

WOW!! Multi-tasking!! I can not even type and chew gum at the same time. Here you are thinking and talking about 25 different things all at once and making good sense. I bet there are some women out there that can answer this with equal ease, but alas, I am a guy and need to break things down into bite size pieces:

I am at home, my WW went to shop for fabrics and stuff for the office, and the kids are taking their naps, so I have to be quick.

First things first, it sounds like your H has been responding very well to counseling and your R. Congratulations. Do not let this get muddled by your insecurites about the R. I know how you feel though. When my WW gets happy my mind tends to wander. We cleaned house today, and I get a chance to walk around the house and get triggered by all kinds of things, like putting her new sexy panties away (bought for OM no doubt), making the bed (wondering if they had sex in it), etc etc.. I hate these things. Makes me want to give up and move out away from the pain. So all this to say, I know where you are coming from. Go ahead and have the R talk, but I think his actions are doing talking in volumes. Don't you?

He has been responding well about the discipline thing. Do you have the book bringing up boys by Dr. Dobson. It is a great thing for us fathers. Helps us see importance of certain activities with boys that society does not care for, like rough housing and wrestling and pretend shooting, etc.

About giving him things to read, unlike women, men like to focus on one thing at a time. Do not swamp him with more than two topics. We can't possibly absorb more than that. Pick out the most important two and go with those. It seams to me that you are trying to counsel him too. Be carefull with your approach. He may get offended if you come off trying to counsel him.

About your friend: Why is she your friend? It does not seem by your post that there are many redeaming features or similiar philisophical basis that would make a good friend. You know the old saying, you are who you associate with. You may want to think about her value as a friend. If you do wish to keep her as a friend, you may want to reconsider trying to "save" her. She will not have a change of heart. She is cemented in her thinking. Besides, it is O.K. for her to have a different view then you. Just do not bring up the topic much. I think your H is stronger in his views then you think. He wants to go to MC so he does care about the R. He probably sees the importance of the R. Try not to worry about your friend chaging his views. Does your friend change your views? Do you think your opinion of your H is condesending a bit?

I have not heard you say good things about your H. So my question is, if you are not staying for the sake of the children, why are you staying? Mostly I here from you, he is abusive, bad with discipline and raising your children, bad at the R etc etc. Now I would like to here some positives so that I do not have such a jaded view of your H. My thinking is he has to have some positives about him, but all I see is negatives.

Saturday went well. I started in the morning cleaning while she went to work out. Sweeped and mopped the floor, did some laundry, vacummed a bit, started cleaning sons toys (and new birthday toys). This started her day off prety good. We talked. I poured on the affection and whatever bit of charm I had. Great Plan A'ing. She even kissed back a couple of times. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I still have to work on that SF, it has been a month though so I was too eager in myself. Latter in the day she said something that ment quite a bit too me. We were talking about son going to school in a couple of years and her going to the bus stop and she said "we both will be at the bus stop won't we." With a smile on her face. That made me feel real good.

I have to go. I want to get something done before she gets back. Laundry time.

<small>[ August 13, 2002, 05:34 AM: Message edited by: dreamland ]</small>

Hi there,

Wow! I AM impressed! You made it through and actually thought I made some sense? You score high, Dreamland! Thanks so much for the input - i'll try to respond, but have to be quick - may have to come back to this tomorrow.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by dreamland:
<strong>
First things first, it sounds like your H has been responding very well to counseling and your R. Congratulations. Do not let this get muddled by your insecurites about the R. I know how you feel though. </strong> So you really think so? I need to be told this, you see, by a guy. Because I am so busy "multi-tracking" I miss the more subtle signs that things might be improving. I am reading Why Men Can't Listen and Women Can't Read Maps and its starting to sink in a little - he has a great cartoon of men's facial expressions (all the same for different emotions) and explains that men had to learn to be impassive to hunt game. Or fish. Hmmm. I'm learning...but slowly, I admit.

<strong> I know where you are coming from.</strong> This helps - I also understand your insecurity and the pain of "triggers" but I am trying, as you can see, to stay in control of myself and not let myself assume the worst.

<strong>Go ahead and have the R talk, but I think his actions are doing talking in volumes. Don't you?</strong>
It's funny you say that, because his response - being willing to talk - was enough to quieten the need to talk in me. We went for a long walk in the woods that day, and we could have talked then, while boys were picking blackberries, but I didn't feel I had to, so I just let us enjoy the walk. Then we could have talked after the boys went to bed, but by then, I knew it was late and he has said he doesn't like to talk late at night, so I was happy to just go to bed. This evening, he called to let me know where he was and he sounded happy to be doing that - very respectful and positive sounding.

<strong>He has been responding well about the discipline thing. Do you have the book bringing up boys by Dr. Dobson. It is a great thing for us fathers. Helps us see importance of certain activities with boys that society does not care for, like rough housing and wrestling and pretend shooting, etc.</strong> Yes, I think he listened to me. I still don't like some of the things he does - badgering the boys to hurry them up - but at least I feel like we have been able to talk a little bit about it. I have had a chance to "not interfere" and have stepped back, and I think he has seen that I have done this. I have read some books on raising boys - maybe not that one - which have helped me understand what boys need more - I firmly agree they are different from girls and I have stepped back and let my H develop the close R he should be having with them. I have always thought he was very good at this. It's one of the things I have always admired about him and I have said this to him many times. It's why it makes me sad to see him damage his good R with them by his emotional state - when he loses control of himself - bcos his guilt, shame and defensiveness affect him and make him more touchy around them and me. Maybe he is starting to come out of this now.

<strong>About giving him things to read, unlike women, men like to focus on one thing at a time. Do not swamp him with more than two topics. We can't possibly absorb more than that. Pick out the most important two and go with those. </strong> Yeah, I thought so - I needed this advice. Will do as you suggest.

{qb]It seams to me that you are trying to counsel him too. Be carefull with your approach. He may get offended if you come off trying to counsel him.[/qb] Yes, I think you're right about this. I will be more cautious and try to be less "instructive" and more "I feel" if I feel I need to say something.

<strong>About your friend: Why is she your friend? It does not seem by your post that there are many redeaming features or similiar philisophical basis that would make a good friend. </strong> This is a very old R of my H's - they met when he was 19 and she was 39 - I believe they had a long-term EA - it was part of the reason I broke up with him the first time we were engaged. When he brought me my engagement ring, he also brought one from his mother and one from her! Not many women get 3 engagement rings, but I did. Its a long story. I was young and mixed-up - I loved him - I tried to "understand" - I wanted to make him happy. When I met his parents, it all seemed to make sense. His parents were so cold, and this woman and her family were so kind and loving. I thought they were a good influence, so I tried to get along. It's something we still need to handle in counselling. I thought it had been handled, but I have found out through this past year that I still worry too much about what she thinks about everything. I weight her with too much power. I shouldn't call her, I know. So I have to try harder not to.
<strong> If you do wish to keep her as a friend, you may want to reconsider trying to "save" her. She will not have a change of heart. She is cemented in her thinking. Besides, it is O.K. for her to have a different view then you. Just do not bring up the topic much.</strong> Yes, this is true and I accept that she has the right to have different views. Whenever I talk to her, I always feel she is trying to convert me, though, and I guess I have to let go of feeling upset by that.
<strong> I think your H is stronger in his views then you think. He wants to go to MC so he does care about the R. He probably sees the importance of the R. Try not to worry about your friend chaging his views.</strong>
My H is quite certain about his beliefs and they are different from hers. He is a strong person in many ways.
<strong> Does your friend change your views?</strong>Not really. But she does make me think long and hard about what I believe. Which I think is a good thing. She has also been genuinely kind and loving to me when I was in pain, so I think her motives are honorable, its just that I know something about their past, so sometimes I think she confuses the "love of Christ" with her own passion. Maybe I am wrong.
<strong> Do you think your opinion of your H is condesending a bit?</strong> Could very well be. I have been very mad at my H and certainly all his faults glare out at me. H can also be very arrogant and condescending to others - v confrontational, which I don't like.

<strong>I have not heard you say good things about your H. So my question is, if you are not staying for the sake of the children, why are you staying?</strong>

Gotta go - will come back later, DL. Thanks.
LIR
from you, he is abusive, bad with discipline and raising your children, bad at the R etc etc. Now I would like to here some positives so that I do not have such a jaded view of your H. My thinking is he has to have some positives about him, but all I see is negatives.

Well, after my WW and I had a great saturday, we are having a bit of a down day today. WW is in an agrevated mood. But first the good, Saturday went well. I started in the morning cleaning while she went to work out. Sweeped and mopped the floor, did some laundry, vacummed a bit, started cleaning sons toys (and new birthday toys). This started her day off prety good. We talked. I poured on the affection and whatever bit of charm I had. Great Plan A'ing. She even kissed back a couple of times. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I still have to work on that SF, it has been a month though so I was too eager in myself. Latter in the day she said something that ment quite a bit too me. We were talking about son going to school in a couple of years and her going to the bus stop and she said "we both will be at the bus stop won't we." With a smile on her face. That made me feel real good.

Sorry, mine is getting long too.

Sunday, down hill. She is in a lousy mood. I started working on finishing cleaning and organizing son's toys. She helped out quite a bit. She got in a bad mood because babysitter not taking care of toys. Many ruined and missing pieces etc. She started snippin' at me, I kept my calm the whole time and took most of it back. She would not let me kiss her or hug her or anything affectionate. We went to the toy store to exchange things, and then she realy made me mad. I picked out a match box playdoe toy for son, and she did not like it at all. Said it was going to break, said she did not want him to have it, but I got him real interested in it and he cried for it. So we put it in the cart. A little while lader, she asked me about another toy, and I snapped at her "well what do I know about toys." Well I thought how belittleing can you get. Like we are looking for toys that are going to last 20 years. I can pick out toys. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

I am thinking now, I rember this part of my WW and I do not like it. I am trying my but off to keep this WW and this is what I am going to get. Some catch. She gets like this quite a bit and totally destroys the mood of the house.

She is out shopping now and I told her gently that she needs to snap out of this mood and leave all that meaness out of the house.

Well if you get through all of my post, I will likewise be impressed.

I have to go. I want to get something done before she gets back. Laundry time.[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

LIR;
It sounds like you have made some progress in getting H to agree to MCing, as well as with improving your communication skills and avoiding arguments. Two very key steps!

I wish I'd been able to improve the communications w/my W. Sadly, the frustration and pent-up anger have not allowed me to think clearly and I've very easily fallen for arguments lately.

My very best.

Quick, quick, I'm back for a minute,

<strong>All I hear from you, he is abusive, bad with discipline and raising your children, bad at the R etc etc. Now I would like to here some positives so that I do not have such a jaded view of your H. My thinking is he has to have some positives about him, but all I see is negatives.</strong>
Yes, I have been dwelling on the negatives - when he is being awful, they're up in my face and can't be ignored. But there are a lot of good things about my H, which, from Easter, until end of May, I was doing a good job of looking for and complimenting him on - my one-a-day compliment cure - this was "working" really well, and while I have tried to recover that space, it has been really hard since then - right now, this week, I feel like I can am able to get back to that. So - will get back to my "program".

DL -
<strong> Latter in the day she said something that ment quite a bit too me. We were talking about son going to school in a couple of years and her going to the bus stop and she said "we both will be at the bus stop won't we." With a smile on her face. That made me feel real good.</strong> This sounds really good - like she is really wanting to have a future with you and trying to get your agreement on this.

<strong>Sunday, down hill. She is in a lousy mood.</strong> Maybe here period is due? A lot of this is hormones and you probably just need to give her space - don't worry about whether its related to anything "heavy", maybe offer to make her a coffee or would she like you to take over from her, so she can sit down for a few minutes?
<strong> I started working on finishing cleaning and organizing son's toys. She helped out quite a bit. She got in a bad mood because babysitter not taking care of toys. Many ruined and missing pieces etc.</strong> Hmm...I remember broken toys with toddlers - miserable - not upset that the toys were broken but because of the fallout from toddler who wants it to be fixed NOW by MommyGod - something I couldn't do. Hiding broken toys - also a price to pay - storms of tears from toddler who can't find favourite toy - toddlers are really difficult and demanding and I found this hard to take - the expectation that I was God and could and should do everything. Probably she is upset about something like that UNDERNEATH the broken toys. Not sure she can deal with the pressure once the toddler starts screaming. Don't know - just guessing.
<strong> She started snippin' at me, I kept my calm the whole time and took most of it back. She would not let me kiss her or hug her or anything affectionate.</strong> Yep, she's takin' it out on you. Not fun.
<strong> We went to the toy store to exchange things, and then she realy made me mad. I picked out a match box playdoe toy for son, and she did not like it at all. Said it was going to break, said she did not want him to have it, but I got him real interested in it and he cried for it. So we put it in the cart. A little while lader, she asked me about another toy, and I snapped at her "well what do I know about toys." Well I thought how belittleing can you get. Like we are looking for toys that are going to last 20 years. I can pick out toys. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> </strong> Here's your anger dance - you're mad that she took out her frustration on you, so you don't listen to her when she gives you her opinion that toy will break - probably she's right and then she will have to deal with the screaming toddler again and she's already thinking she can't handle the ones she's got - my boys can break things within minutes of getting them. Thankfully they are older and more pragmatic about this, but when they were toddlers, it was hell. You want your little boy to enjoy himself, and you don't want wife to control the situation, so you "get him interested in it" - naturally he cries when she says no - now she's the bad guy and you've won, and also won over small fry to your side.
We do this, too - I don't know what to say - this is how your children become embroiled in parental struggles for power. It would be better if you could have talked about why she was upset about the toys being broken and what it is about broken toys that upsets her, and then try to respect her judgement if she can give you an honest opinion. I am/have been a SAHM, and I resent it badly when my H thinks he know better than me stuff like that - we have to learn to talk about our perceptions in a civilised way, respecting each others different viewpoints. Obviously, this is a big problem in our marriage, too, so I'm not saying I am any better at this than you - please don't feel I am criticizing, cause I'm not trying to.

I am thinking now, I rember this part of my WW and I do not like it. I am trying my but off to keep this WW and this is what I am going to get. Some catch. She gets like this quite a bit and totally destroys the mood of the house.

She is out shopping now and I told her gently that she needs to snap out of this mood and leave all that meaness out of the house.

Well if you get through all of my post, I will likewise be impressed.

I have to go. I want to get something done before she gets back. Laundry time.[/QB][/QUOTE][/QB][/QUOTE]

WOW!!! I am doubly impressed.

I have seen that once we get the ball rolling in the right direction, until it builds some momentum, it is easy to nudge the ball out of the intended path. We have to keep at it, now more than ever, to help the ball gain some foward momentum. So no LB'ing for either of us.

Thanks for your input on my situation. You are "right on". She is on the pill, so I should check her pills to see where she is at. How do you tell anyways from looking at the pill?

I was serious about you listing the positives about your husband. I would like to know what you think are your H's qualities. I think this would be a good excersise for you too, BUT if you do not want to, thats fine. I just was curious.

BTW: It appears like things are improving greatly. Give him a chance now and start focusing on his positive traits and keep your conversation skills at their best.

<small>[ August 13, 2002, 05:30 AM: Message edited by: dreamland ]</small>

Hi LIR,

I want to make some general comments and then quote you and make some comments.

I think you are making progress. We see what happens through your eyes but still - it looks like he is willing to work on things. I believe he loves you and wants to be with YOU! The communication you are having is a good thing. I can see you are careful about what you say, I hope it does not wear you out.

As I have been gone for a few days, I am going to go back a little bit and quote you and then comment and make suggestions.

When I told him this, he was very quiet. I think it was earlier in the conversation, when we talked about not undermining each other, I also said that I felt he undermined me in front of them, and used the example of when I left the table the other night and he mocked me ("Uh, oh, Mummy's mad again"). I said I felt that when he did that he was degrading me in front of them.

Perhaps I shouldn't have said what I said - maybe I used what could have been a conversation that could have made him feel closer to me, if I had agreed with him all the way, to tell him "what he was doing wrong". So maybe it wasn't such a good move. He went pretty quiet and we didn't talk more, but it didn't turn into an argument - he didn't get mad.

I think you needed to tell him the truth, it is necessary for him to know. It is very important how you address him. When he goes quiet, I suggest you say something like this. " H, I love you and and I only bring these things up so we can work them out between us, I think we can work them out if we keep talking together like this."
Another one would be, " H, we both have strengths and weaknesses. I believe if you help me, and I help you, we can improve our family, ourselves, and our marriage, please know that is all I am trying to do. I am not trying hurt you or belittle you, I love you.

I suggest also you leave it on a good, loving note every time. Even if he gets angry, go up and kiss him and say, " H, I love you, I never intended for this discussion to end up this way, lets finish it another time. " and then walk away. Find a way to say these things like you would normally say them, using words you would use. It is still setting a boundary - because you walk away but you leave with an "I Love you", and kiss - is that how you usually do it? If he presses, go ahead and cry and say " I can't talk now." and leave if you have to.
I know you didn't have this problem at this time ( when the above quotes happened) but you will again sometime.

I have printed out "How to Overcome and Abusive Marriage: Why do People Who love each other fight so much? Letter No. 6; The Three States of Mind in Marriage: Withdrawal; How One Spouse can lead another back to Intimacy; A Summary of Dr Harley's Basic Concepts; Love Busters; The Parable of the Net; and the article "Caring for Children Means Caring for each other".

I know you want results, but he is not there yet. This stuff is to advanced for where he is right now. Have you had the discussion about where you are right now? Has he agreed formally to read, study and work on things with you? If not, I suggest you have that talk first. It could go something like this:
" H, when we talked last week, I asked how we were doing and you felt we were making progress. I feel we are also. I have found some material that I think will help us, will you go over it with me and tell me what you think? "

I would still suggest starting with the Love Bank concept. If he understands it, everything else you will give him will make more sense - even the stuff about children and parenting. He has a LB with your sons also, and everything he does either fills it or drains it. All you are saying about how to treat them will be better understood if he can get the Love Bank concept.

LIR, you have learned so much and made so much progress that you can hardly hold yourself back. But he is coming along more slowly ( don't kid yourself, he is really coming.) Be careful with him, treat him with these concepts like a newborn with solid food. Give him milk, and try a few spoonfuls of solids and if he spits it out, go back to milk for a while.

Sorry for the length of this. Will be really impressed if anyone wades through this!
I hope you know that we care for you as much as you do for the many others you have helped. Did you ever wonder what heaven was like? If we lived as though we were already there, would we help and care for each other here? I think you can count on us to read and respond to your posts.

When he responds to me, I don't feel like our R is dead at all, but that we do have a chance to change.
I think you have a very good chance, better than many. Please take a long term view. It is hard when you have been hurt so much and when you get a trigger but please believe and have hope.

It's funny you say that, because his response - being willing to talk - was enough to quieten the need to talk in me. We went for a long walk in the woods that day, and we could have talked then, while boys were picking blackberries, but I didn't feel I had to, so I just let us enjoy the walk. Then we could have talked after the boys went to bed, but by then, I knew it was late and he has said he doesn't like to talk late at night, so I was happy to just go to bed. This evening, he called to let me know where he was and he sounded happy to be doing that - very respectful and positive sounding.

You did so good. One of the things that my wife tells me (now - she wouldn't talk for some time) is that it seemed like I always wanted to have R talks, I tried to force things to go too quickly. Spend lots of time just having fun. I also would stay away from late night talks, when we ( W and I ) were tired, we said things we never would have said rested, sometimes things that didn't make sense, sometimes hurtful things. Talk when you are rested and in a good mood, not when angry and hurt or tired.
I agree with Dreamland, his actions are speaking volumes, I believe he wants you.

As for your friend, if she makes you uncomfortable, just tell her " I'm not willing to talk about that right now, lets talk about something else." Then change the subject. You can say that over and over and that's all you have to say. If she presses, go back to it, " I said, I'm not willing to talk about that, sorry but I'm not. or " I know you are concerned about us, but as I said, I'm not willing to talk about that now.'

I think she has some valid points but I think she uses words that mean something else to you. I will come back to this one later. ( perhaps more than a few days from now, sorry.)

I was doing a good job of looking for and complimenting him on - my one-a-day compliment cure - this was "working" really well, and while I have tried to recover that space, it has been really hard since then - right now, this week, I feel like I can am able to get back to that. So - will get back to my "program".

Be careful to balance your give and taker. When we read here, we see other sides from what you see. I worry that you give to much sometimes. You can't do it forever. If you have not yet, please read the giver and taker concept again and ask yourself if what you are doing makes both of them happy. If not, look at your "program" again and perhaps modify it.

I am leaving again tomorrow ( Tuesday) and again next week, so my replies will be sporadic.

LIR, I see many positives but it is very hard to focus on them when he is not nice to you. I believe someday he will "get it." Keep up your very good work.

SS

Hello Dreamland,

I let her have it about her being late, did not yell was not mean, just told her how she made me feel (but no OM stuff). She told me she did not know she had to "check in" and that the time got away from her.

Dream, when she calls, never unload on her, even if it is nice. Always say " thanks for calling, I was worried about you." or words to that effect. Every time she gets a bad feeling from the call, she will be less likely to call. You can bring up the fear and trigger stuff at another time. " Oh, by the way, thanks again for calling earlier tonight, I still have trust issues with you ( for reasons we both understand) and it helps me alot when you call."

Use positive ways to tell her.
Hope it continues to get better, have been gone and have not read your updates ( if there some)

SS

Thank you both so much for your feedback - I am finding this so helpful and encouraging. It really does help me to have it pointed out to me that you both think he is willing to work on us and showing that - sometimes my resentment flares and wipes out the positive around me - that's one of my failings.

It feels to me like we are making real progress here. Yesterday it was one step forward, and two steps back, which I'll go into, but this morning feels like three steps forward.

Yesterday he was busy all day working on his project - he had set himself a deadline and was working at the computer all day. He also had got stung by something on the end of his finger, which had made his finger swell up, so he had to take time out to go see the doctor - he is a pianist and is giving a recital on Saturday! I woke him up in the AM with a cup of tea, so he could be up in time to see the doctor early if that was what worked out (he made an appt for 11) - then I got the kids breakfast (he also helped get the kids breakfast before getting down to work) - I washed the dishes, did a load of laundry, cleaned the bathroom, got the kids dressed, walked into town to take books back to the library, did errands (picked up stuff for lunch) - its a mile walk - helps keep me fit - I took YS with me so he wouldn't fight with OS and distract Dad - when I got home, I made lunch - afterwards, I cleared up (H came down to eat lunch), I invited 2 other boys over to play with our boys so they would have something to do while Daddy worked - I took them all to the park to keep them out of the house - their Mom came and picked them up from me at the park about 5:15 - we walked home, and I started making dinner, bringing the washing in from off the line, clearing up the toys (I do ask boys to help me now, to clear up their own stuff), finally, I was exhausted - got casserole into oven to cook for half an hour - but I was tired by then (7:00) - I have an infected tooth which needs to come out and although it doesn't hurt very much, I think the infection is wearing down my system - (have to have it out soon) - so - I did too much and H didn't help me all day - my Taker got mad inside (I've helped him get his work done, why can't he help me when I'm tired?).

So I sort of stomped up the stairs to our bedroom and all I said to him was "I'm tired. I'm going to lie down. The casserole will be ready in 15 minutes." He was working on the computer and I heard him say "OK".

When I came down half an hour later, he was still on the computer and nothing was done. He hadn't budged. Everything was still a mess, and the table wasn't set (they know this is their job) and the kitchen was still a mess. My Taker got really mad. I called up the stairs "Does anyone want any dinner or what?!" He came downstairs and he was upset now - "Well, what do you want us to do?!" I said "I just wish sometimes I didn't have to tell you in minute detail what you have to do. I told you I was tired, why couldn't you just take over from me?" He immediately started laying the table and saying "Now what? What next? What else?" He was really trying to do the right thing, but I was mad because I was resentful - he said "Well, you know we all have our jobs to do, and I was just doing my job!" "Yes," I said, "And you also have a family, and you never stop for us, that's the problem - you go until you're done and you don't ever stop for me when I need you." "Now, that's not necessary," he said.

We stopped, and we all had dinner, and we didn't fight the rest of the evening - I calmed down and we even managed to smile at each other and go to be peaceful.

I know I was totally wrong and handled this really badly - I don't blame him for being mad at me and I think he handled my being upset really well - he didn't lose his cool at all.

This morning I got up first and he came down after me - I had just made us both a cup of tea. He said that was really kind of me to make him a cup of tea and put his arm around me. I said that I was sorry about how I handled yesterday. That I was tired out at the end of the day, but I knew that the way I expressed myself was not constructive at all, and I was sorry for it. He was very cheerful and joking with me. I felt a lot better. A few minutes later, I said, "I never got a chance to finish that conversation with you." He said "We can still talk if you want to." I said "Well, funny thing is when you say that I feel so much better I don't need to talk so much - it takes my anxiety away and I feel closer to you." "You were feeling anxious?" he said "Yes, I was feeling anxious" I said. He said "Hmmm" I said "Well, the thing is, I've found something that I think has really helped me and I wonder if you would read a few pages and give me some feedback on this. Its very practical and I feel it has helped me a lot. Like last night - I know that my reaction last night was not constructive, but before, I would have felt defensive and justified, but now I realize I wasn't constructive. This has really helped me see the error of my ways, but I feel I could do even better if I could get some specific feedback from you." "Oh, this is that MB, isn't it? I think I've heard about this from somewhere. Well, what have you got? Bring it here and let me see." I said "You don't have to read it right now - just when you have time." He said "No, bring it now, I want to see it now." So I gave him "How to change an abusive marriage" (2 1/2 pages) and "The Three Stages of Marriage" - I think since fighting has been a major factor in our marriage breakdown, that this would be a good place to start since we are both trying to find a solution to this problem - I also admit that I have been guilty of all the LBs - he doesn't have to admit to me right now his LBs - I think it is helpful if I admit to him that I see that have done, and still do some of these things, too.

So he sat down over his breakfast and started reading - and seemed really interested in a positive way - he didn't reject everything and immediately start picking it to pieces. He didn't finish it because he had to go to his counselling appt. (which is where he is now) - I am going to go out to play squash with my friend when he comes back.

I don't know when I'll get a chance back on the computer - I'm sure tomorrow sometime, so will come back and answer specific points then.

DL - thanks for telling me about your day - I have stuff to say, but will have to come back when I have more time - plus I didn't get a chance to finish dealing with your other post. Things sound like they are improving with you.

SS - I really appreciate your input - I have a hard time dealing with my past hurt and expectations - I sabotage myself (as you can see) and I still have a lot of work to do with myself - I also worry a lot about what other people think and the power they have to influence him - I feel caught up in dealing with a lot of other people's feelings as well as my own. I will come back and answer your points specifically. I will also be on and off intermittently until beg of Sept.

Thanks more than you know to both of you for caring.

LIR

Hi Lady,
I am smiling and happy today and I hope you are also. In many ways this is a wonderful world we live in and there is much good here. Can you feel the good today? Hope you can.

"Well, you know we all have our jobs to do, and I was just doing my job!" "Yes," I said, "And you also have a family, and you never stop for us, that's the problem - you go until you're done and you don't ever stop for me when I need you." "Now, that's not necessary," he said.

He was right, it's not necessary.
" you never stop for us". I have been taught that the word never is a bad word. As is the word "always" as in " you are always late" Now, having said that, it is one of my sins, and my W is the one that calls me on it. I suspect you already know this, but just checking. Of course the reason they are bad words is that used in this manner, they are untrue. Perhaps It would be well to read "Love Busters" again if you have it. Not only would it help you, it would help you understand H better and how to work with him. Now, these things are not the real problem.

I know I was totally wrong and handled this really badly - I don't blame him for being mad at me and I think he handled my being upset really well - he didn't lose his cool at all.
I think I said he seems to love you and I bet he wants things to work out. He is not perfect yet, but he can be trained. So can you.

The problem is ( I believe) your giver and taker need balance. You have been giving so much and now you want something back. But you gave freely, and he never agreed to give you exactly what you want in return. You think the marriage contract means that - but he is not seeing it the same way. That is what POJA is, learning to see things the same way. Lets see, how to explain the right direction you need to go???

His statement about only doing his job was kind of an excuse and he probably knows it. What would have happened if you had said " H, I really need your help, normally I would do all this, but I can't do it all tonight, please come help me." that, and a kiss and hug and pull him up out of his chair. ?? I think that's what your friend wanted to tell you, those kind of things could work wonders for putting things back together. Don't be afraid to ask him for help and tell him exactly what you need Some of us men are really dumb, but we are willing to work after things are explained to us. There have been times that I wanted to help but my mind wouldn't change from what I was doing to the task at hand ( getting dinner ready) . Other times, I can do dinner for 60 people and do it perfect, by myself. . I can't explain what takes place in my mind to make that much of a difference, it happens to me sometimes. So, it looks like even he has bad days. I think you already know that, but that taker of yours has been in retreat so long, Hmmmm. It's bad when two people have bad days at the same time.

He said "No, bring it now, I want to see it now." So I gave him "How to change an abusive marriage" (2 1/2 pages) and "The Three Stages of Marriage" ............So he sat down over his breakfast and started reading - and seemed really interested in a positive way - he didn't reject everything and immediately start picking it to pieces.

Perhaps I was wrong, perhaps he is ready for solid food. I admit, I have not read all you gave me on past threads. I travel a lot this time of year on business - but I promise to read it soon. I hope you express thanks to him when he does do well, it makes a difference to me, and I expect it does to him also.

I am going to go out to play squash with my friend when he comes back.
Now I am really confused, here we grow squash for food.

Just kidding, I know what squash is. ( but we really do grow squash for food)

I know you already know this stuff, as I told someone else, I just repeat it for positive reinforcement. I never intend to say you are bad or that you don't understand things. I know you do understand. I still make errors too, but only on week days and week ends. Other than that, I do pretty good. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Now, lets talk more about your friends advice.
( I believe) all she is saying is the same thing DR Harley says, that Steven Covey says in "7 Habits" and that the Savior said in Luke chapter 6. "And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise." or in other words, it is more likely that if you are nice to others, they will be nice to you. ( I know, I changed it quite a bit, but I think it you get it.) God sets boundaries too, he has rules but he coaxes and loves and warns before he acts. Looks like your H is responding mostly the right way. Don't let your taker run things just yet. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Let me assure you, this is not your fault. He should have stayed away from the EA and he did not. He should always be kind and he is not. You did not cause his problems, and you can't fix them unless he wants to change. There will still be problems in your marriage ( unless you are abnormal and different than the rest of us.) However, things can be much better than they are and I think you and he can get there, I really do.

By now he knows how you feel about his family. What does he say about it? Does he admit there is a problem? Is it hard on him to discuss it? Can you point out things they do among themselves that he also does so he can see what you are talking about? Can you use it for good, and have the visit help you instead of hurt?

Lady, remember that your family is most important. The reason you post here is to help that relationship improve. Never come here when you need to be there. We will understand if you miss a few days, or if you have to cut your posts short. Please don't worry about things like that, you have more important things to worry about.

SS

I can not post very much. Little to no energy and watching kids tonight.

I know how you feel about steps foward and back. Bear with it, you are doing a great job - Unlike me - 20 GIANT steps back -- little hope now.

Read my post few days ago. Chameleon no longer a secret.

I will keep in touch with some here. Just too much care in me to drop it all right now.

Dear ss and DL,

Thanks so much for your replies - sorry I have been off the board - I want to reply in more detail, but as usual, do not have time. My H is out and I don't know for how long. I have both kids home for the summer and whenever I post here, they are sitting in front of the TV, so I don't want to leave them for too long. I just want you to know I really appreciate your keeping in touch with me.

Hey, ss - don't worry - I can take it! What I believe is that you have to tell the whole truth - and I fully admit that I have contributed and contribute to our M problems - when I first came here I was in shock and struggling with my H's reactions to my finding out about his friendships with other women. I did, even a year ago, when I first found out, go to him and say that I knew I had contributed to him being unhappy, I asked for his forgiveness and told him I wanted to try to change. I guess he wasn't ready to hear that at the time. I'm not saying I'm a saint, as my own behaviour since then (and before) has proved that I am not. But what I'm trying to do is learn. At first, I was really angry with him and it was (and still is) easy to feel self-righteous. But I found myself working so hard to "save his soul" - I started asking myself - what about you, honey? Every lesson I wanted him to learn, I started asking myself, is this a lesson which actually I need to learn? So if I think he needs to learn how to be intimate, maybe there's a lesson in there to be learned for me, as well.

Well, I try to post the whole truth - and as you can see, I make a lot of mistakes, which is why I find you guys' input so helpful - I grew up in a very female-oriented family and I think I have always been clueless about how to understand men. I have been intrigued that when I approach my H with the techniques that I am learning from the "Mars and Venus" books that my H responds "like a normal man"! Hey! Maybe he's not so bad after all! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

ss - I think you are spot on about my Taker - I HAVE given a lot - and my H is an artist and a performer with a big need for attention, plus the ability to totally focus ALL his concentration of the job in hand - its a great quality which is what makes him so fantastic at what he does - no matter what is happening in his life, he can go on stage and pull off a great performance. Trying to keep up with his needs has been really hard for me and I haven't known how to say no before I get strung out. But I think these last few weeks have shown to me that he is wanting and willing to work on our R and is responsive when I try to change how I approach him. A lot of it is also timing - knowing when there is a chink in his concentration where I can get his attention.

DL - I feel bad for you - I read your post about Chameleon - I agree with the posters on your thread that you shouldn't be so hard on yourself. Clearly your W's behaviour in the past has upset you - and just like me, I'm sure there are new "ways of being" that you can learn to change the way you and your W relate to each other. I am a believer and I believe you found this site for a reason. I would be sorry to see you cut yourself off from a source of wisdom and support. I know exactly how you feel about being addicted to MB - I have felt like saying "Help! I"m having an EA with MB!" but I have already seen that thread over on JFO. LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> What I have done is limit myself - I try not to let myself get caught up in the drama of other people's stories - it is too painful and can bring me down. I follow 2-3 threads where I think I can be supportive, that's all. I have learned a lot, though, by lurking - what a word! I think MB forum is a wonderful support group and I do not think I would be approaching my M with the positive attitude that I am now were it not for MB - I would probably be blaming my H, full of resentment, and seeking a way out.

As it is, I think I am a stronger person - I DON'T like my H when he is nasty - I DON'T think it is right for me to accept being abused as part of "saving my marriage" - but MB has helped me balance the good and the bad and deal with the bad in a positive way.

All to the good. Gotta go for now.

Will be back when I can.

LIR

Hi Lady: You seem to be doing well. I know how hard it is to change your behavior when we have become so accustomed to acting a certain way toward our spouses. I would blow up and have to apologize because I felt that even if he is not doing his part I need to be true to my commitment to change for my marriage, for myself. I would ask my WH to please be patient with me because we have been through so much and I am only human. He seemed to understand. I was in Plan A then. So I know he left knowing that I wanted to change and work on our marriage. Your WS seems really understanding and patient. Glad to see it!!!

The funny thing is they screw up and we have to walk around on eggshells. Don't we get to at least give them one good kick in the a.s.lol That ought to be the criteria. Put them all in a stadium and supply us with Dr. Martian shoes or spikes and let us give our best WHACK!!!. Yeah, I am a little angry.lol Take care. wu

You hit on something Lady: There have been alot of lessons in this. And I am a wonderful pupil.lol But I did have to ask myself one simple question. How do you expect anything to change if you keep doing the same thing? If you want change you have to change. Figure out what did not work and re-work it to suit the situation. I know one thing for sure, I will never be the same wife I was before this all happened. And even if my marriage does not survive, I know that the next relationship I get into will be stronger, healthier, more intimate for the experience. You got to give a little to get alot. lol. bye again. wu <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Hello Lady in Red,

I have been back in some of your old posts and I think I will comment.

I think you have had a lot of time to think about your M. First you were afraid, then you became angry. I think he became angry first, then afraid. So his first reaction was to blame you for everything, then he realized he loved you and didn't want to loose you so he was afraid. Meanwhile, you had become angry and he felt he was under attack - so he closed up more than normal.

I will make some general observations.
It looks to me like you are both in recovery. He actually talks to you about things. Often he takes your suggestions. Often he is the first to extend the offer of peace talks.

He still has issues. I think he is working on them "one at a time" as many men do. He can't cope with all of it at once. I think you will make much progress the next year - both of you.

He can work on his anger problem and you can work on the other things. More time together, etc.
I believe one day he will be able to recognize and meet your needs. For now, give him an overview ( there are things I need, I will tell you specific things sometimes and you need to do them.) Explain the why's, and how's and then tell him when you need something, I bet he will do them. I think within a few years he will pick it up himself and do it without being told. You have a need to be loved and you need him to show you by doing things for you without being told. That will come, for now tell him and don't worry about it.

He needs to know what you feel when he hurts you. He doesn't need to be told what to do. Your only option would be to take it, or leave. If it is really bad, leave the home. If it is mild, leave the room. You sometimes try to control his behavior by your reaction to him. You know from being here since Feb. that you can't change him, you can only change you and hope he comes along. Don't tell him what to do, just let him understand that you are hurt, and leave the argument. Don't tell him what he can or can not do, what he should or should not do. Just express your feelings. I feel _____________ about what you just said to me. ( angry, hurt, puzzled, embarrassed, sad, happy, etc. Or - I feel _______________ about ______________. The first being your feelings, the second being his actions, or words. I want to tell you, this one works for me really well.

Here is an example - from your post of April 7th.
I told him that he was being abusive and that this reaction he has to me - the way he reacts to my being emotionally upset is in itself abusive. Instead of recognizing that I have a good reason for being upset and saying something constructive to calm me down and be reassuring, he reacts by mocking me and taking me to pieces for being upset.

What you seem to be saying is that if you get upset he should calm you down. But he thinks you should be trying to calm him down and he thinks it is your fault. So what you have is he blames you and you blame him. Far better I think to walk away and remain calm. You are reacting to him, not setting boundaries. You are saying that if he does bad things, you have a right to be upset. I think you have a right to leave, not react with anger.

Now, there are many things he has done that are not right. I don't think you have to just take it. but please don't give it back to him. At one point you made a deal with yourself to say a nice thing to him daily to deal with your resentment. Kind of forced niceness. That's one of the reasons your taker is mad. You are being nice but he has not agreed to do for you what you do for him. What you need here is POJA. The only way for the resentment to go away is a fair agreement. If he is coming along, and you are getting happier and happier, then keep on, but if not, you can't keep your giver going with out getting something back. You could go so far as to tell him this story about your unfair agreement and explain that while you really mean the things you say, it is building up resentment ( explain why) and could he give it back to you each day also?

From April 14
but underneath I am full of doubt, suspicion and resentment. He is able to go on with family life, but our R in private, away from the kids, is very thin on the ground. And I have a hard time enjoying myself because its like we're doing what we always did, but I keep thinking, that wasn't enough for him before, why should it be now? And I have a hard time meeting his EN's for admiration, SF and RC when I'm so mad at him inside.


All of those bad feelings are not gone yet. Some return to you each time he gets angry. It seems plain to me that he is trying, but he is slower that you would like. I suspect you keep asking " why doesn't he get this." Well, he gets little bits at a time. Like I said, he will probably only work on one thing at a time. I think this is what your friend and your priest are saying. You will have a hard time meeting his needs if you can't forgive him. ( I know it is somewhat better now, but wanted you to see it.)

Lady, there are many places in your posts where you do the right thing, and say the right things.
In my own marriage, I have realized that I haven't let my H know how much I admired and appreciated him - I thought he knew, and I thought I was communicating that to him - I didn't realize he needed it EVERY DAY. Now I am on a campaign to let him know EVERY DAY - it has helped. So is this good or bad. Perhaps good for him, bad for you? Good for both? I'll let you say, but I think it is good that you wanted to do it. Only fear is as discussed up above.

I had better quit for today, this is getting long. I hope it helps. I will only go on a few more paragraphs.

I still recommend you read "Love Busters" if you have not. The book is much better than the little bit here on the site about it. It will explain much better than I can what you do that angers him, so you understand how to fix it, what to do for him so he can fix his, and he will understand very well (if he reads it) why you are upset with his behavior, and what he can do about it.

The bottom line today is something an old friend told me.
" He who takes offense when no offense is intended is a fool."
and then he said:

He (or she) who takes offense even when an offense was intended is still a fool"

I have found it to be true with me. That's what I did to my wife, and she seldom intended to hurt me. Sometimes she says " lets see, what was that quote, he who takes offense....."
I always get it now, that's as much as I need to catch myself.

Please don't take offense to what he does or says to you. In other words, Don't let him get to you.
Please don't give offense to your H by reacting to him. Perhaps he is a little bit foolish at times, but as I have said, he can be trained.

Lady, I am excited at the progress you both seem to be making. I am happy for you. I hope this helps, not hurts. I am not trying to say you are doing badly, only trying to say that perhaps this way would work well for you.

SS

PS, I recall you would be gone visiting Inlaws, hope things go well ( but I remember your comments about them, so I worry.) I will also be gone off and on.

<small>[ August 20, 2002, 06:19 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

After reading some of your more recent posts, I believe you already understand all of this - probably you will read it and say " I already know this, why is he telling me again."

I think you do know it, I think you live it pretty well too. Hope you are doing well.

Let us know how the visit with IL's went.

Ss

Hi there!
I'm back - I think we had a good vacation - even with the in-laws and all the dynamics - I need time to write more and can't right now - just say my H seems more able to be "in tune" with his feelings and we were able to talk about how I felt and how he felt when his mother ripped into both of us (as she does) - he used to say "you just have to ignore her" - the upshot being he would suppress all his feelings of anger, and my feeling is that it would all come out at me later - this time, he at least was able to admit that he feels angry when she treats him like that.

ss - all your comments are so helpful - will be back later. Thank you so much!

Have to go have my tooth pulled!

LIR

LIR,

Haven't touched base with you for ages, but have just read through all your posts. I wanted to congratulate you on your resolve and good sense! It seems to me that your H is finally seeing through the fog and is recognising what an extraordinary wife he has in you. It is wonderful to hear you sounding so much more positive and optimistic - keep working at it - how can you fail?!
Take care - warmest thoughts!
Fishwife

Hi!
Fishwife - How nice to see you on my thread! - I hope things are going OK with you - I snatch time on the computer and won't have uninterrupted time until Sunday - just back from holiday last night and trying to catch up -

ss - I really value your insights and want to comment on a couple of points, but won't be able to until Sunday - your point about "expecting him to calm me down" "right to leave" rather than "right to get upset" - very helpful. I am trying to learn new skills here - trying to see where I can handle things differently.

I had my tooth out - OK - H is taking good care of me. H seems so much better now - he's happy, kind, affectionate, giving, makes jokes, strokes my hair, feels easy-going. Perhaps withdrawal from OW final and he is able to see me again? Feels like we are finally "in recovery". Big smile.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

LIR