Hi LIR,
It looks like things are progressing really slowly.

I am going to ask for the mobile again tomorrow am - I am taking YS and going to visit my aunt, who is flying into Heathrow, and has a long layover, so we will be able to spend the afternoon and evening with her. It means I will be driving back at night, an hour and a half drive. I think I ought to be able to take the mobile with me. Will see.

You are testing him but he doesn't know he is being tested. I have seen this on the forum over and over. If he fails his test, you are hurt. ( some even plan on ending their marriage based on a failed test that the other knows nothing about.) If he passes, you are happy until the next test, but he knows nothing about it and can't really progress or react to what is happening. I still believe he needs to know your feelings about all this.

It still looks like he is looking at things very differently than you are. Where privacy and trust come in, you have different value systems and you are judging him by yours and he doesn't understand your value system or know that he is being judged by it. As an aside, he is judging you by his, and sometimes you fail. I don't believe this is fair on either side.

What I am trying to do here is to reclaim the territory that is rightfully mine, without alienating him. I am going to ask again to have it tomorrow night, since I go out to rehearsal and come home late, and this time, I will not give him any warning.

Yes, that is what you are doing, but I don't think he is ready for it. I believe before you go on with it, you need to level the playing field, and understand each others value systems. I think going on without doing that, is asking for trouble.

One of the big problems I see here ( and it has been mentioned before ) is that you have studied and made changes and want something to happen. He is coming along much more slowly than you are and doesn't know half of what you know. You have expressed that he just wants things to go back like they were. Well, they can't, but he doesn't' t understand that like you do.

1. He doesn't understand that all these issues have to be dealt with for you to have a great marriage again.

2. He does not understand what the issues are.

3. Trust must be earned, it's not a gift to be given at will. He doesn't know about trust.

4. Sounds like he doesn't understand about love banks, and how his actions are draining yours.

We could go on with this list, but you understand by now.

Looks like you want the walls up and roof on without finishing the foundation. He needs a foundation of understanding to build on.

Now, perhaps I have missed something in the past and he has read some of the material and he should be doing better than he is???

If he has read it, looks like he doesn't understand or that he doesn't buy into it.

I am going to summarize again what I think you need to speak to him about.

(this, from your point of view. )

1. I have problems with the state of our marriage.
(many sub categories that explain why)
2. I need your help working through these things. I really do need help, and you really can help me.

3. Talking about these things with you helps me work through them in my mind and gets them out of the way, puts them behind me. Actually, H, this is pretty cheap help, all you have to do is listen to me and talk to me.

4. We need to be able to discuss them without either one of us getting angry or thinking one is trying to hurt the other. We really do love each other and we should realize that and discuss things from that point of view. ( We sometimes have to remind each other of this, such as -W " so do you think I don't love you or that I am trying to hurt you? " me "Well, no." W, " OK then, I am just trying to explain what I feel when you do that, so you can help me with it."

5. If we can do this, our marriage can be stronger and healthier and we will be IN LOVE again like newlyweds. ( and I (SS) can verify that this is true. Can you imagine the blush of young love coming back after being married 25 years? It is great ! ! !)

6. Learning how to discuss things in a healthy positive way, will help us all our future lives.

When you bring up an issue, it should always be so -
" I feel hurt when you won't let me take the mobile, and this is why." and explain all the issues. 

Then ask him what he feels at the same time, ( when I say at the same time, I mean, what does he feel when you are asking for the mobile, what thoughts are going through his mind.) and validate his concerns by listening and making sure he knows you understand ( comment about it so he knows) .

If I have hit on this too much, I am sorry. I just think you need to be on common ground and even if you once were ( perhaps right after the 2nd A) , it doesn't look like you are right now.

Another few thoughts - What are you going to do if he fails this test over and over?
Also, can you cheat and help him pass by giving him the background mentioned above?
Does it really matter how he passes the test as much as it matters that he does in the end?

Is he testing you right now, and are you passing his test?

LIR, one of the problems is that he has failed so many times that you wonder if he will ever be able to pass consistently. Make it an open book test, give him all the answers first. You need so see him pass as much as he needs the help. If he learns to talk to you, and you to him, you will have a lot more faith that the other things will work out in time. Much of your anger will go away when you believe that things will be worked out someday. Right now, it seems that you only hope, you don't really believe. When you pray tonight, ask God if it really can work, and see what feeling comes to you, I bet it is positive. Find a little more patience in your heart for him (and if he is like me, he needs it.)

BTW, I have faith in both of you. I way see too much good not to believe in you.

SS

I should also say that it looks like you did really good talking with him about YS. Thats the kind of talks you should be having. Really good.

I have an uncle that lives in Altadena, but I admit that I don't visit very often, I am pretty much a small town boy. Since I live in the desert southwest, I see the sun often, but we need rain this year. Last week we had our first real rain since Feb, and they say we are in the worst drought in recorded history.

SS

After thinking all day ( this is about 7 hours after first posting this) I have another comment about H.

In the early years of Marriage, my W asked me to call her after I reached destination. I could never see why and refused to do so. I told her that if I had an accident, the Highway Patrol would call her and if not, it meant I was OK. It seemed like nonsense to me and I could not even understand why she was worried about it. A few months ago, she asked about a mobile phone (mostly for when she or I traveled) and I made much the same comment. I have broken down a few times and hitched a ride to get help. That's just the way I have always done things. She made the comment that " you just don't get it, do you." So I thought about it in context of her feelings and began to realize that we don't see things the same way. ( Duhhhh !!)

My next trip, I called her when I got to my Motel and reported I was safe. She almost cried on the phone and thanked me for understanding. Probably she will never break down and be stranded on the road, but it's the feeling of comfort she seeks - really more than a mobile phone. It's trust you seek, really more than a phone but he does not understand, you see, in his mind he is running the numbers like I used to do, and the law of chance tells him you will be OK. I don't know if this is a Guy, Girl thing, or if your H and I are just dense but I thought just like he does for a long time. I think this is one you can work out when the communication lines are opened up.

I say all this because there are always more reasons than what we can see for anothers refusal to go along with us. We often think the worst and then find later a much more innocent reason for the problem. Don't always think the worst.
SS

<small>[ September 16, 2002, 06:02 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

If you haven't seen this yet, it is something you have thought a lot about and talked about.
Acceptance / Forgiveness / Boundries

Hello!

Well, I'm here again. You know, ss - you really make me think long and hard about things - you see things from a different angle, and I think you are right about this - you have really made me think about this in a different way.

Its true that I am testing him, and now that you have laid it out that way, I can see how unfair it is - its true that I would fail him without him ever knowing either the test or what he would need to do to pass. I do also sense, as you said, that he is sometimes doing the same with me. Talking about it honestly would be so much better. But when I think of talking about it, I would LOVE to just talk about it, even if we were to argue and not agree right away. But I am so scared. When I think about bringing up any topic that has anything to do with his EA's, my heart just starts pounding and I feel frightened. I felt this when I asked for the phone, but I told myself to just press through this and be casual.

At some point I am going to have to press through the fear I have about bringing up difficult subjects. I am just so afraid of him getting mad and recoiling from me again.

Last night, though, we had an interesting conversation. I thought about what you had said, and I didn't ask for the mobile again when I had to go out, first to my counseling appt, and then to choir rehearsal.

In my counselling appt, I said that I needed to work on why *I* obsess over my H's behaviour. Why can I not just let it go - why do I let it floor me, why do I find it so hard to go on, and to get on with my own life? My insecurity, I am well aware, goes back to the traumas of my own childhood - when I was a child, my father started an affair with a girl who was only 10 years older than me - she insists that she was 15 - he says she was 17. She was the cause of the breakup of our family, but they must love each other, as they have now been together 34 years - she is 55 now, and he is 77.

My SM is a nutcase - she fought dirty and used every trick in the book to get my dad - she admits that she was totally selfish and would have done anything to get him. When I was 9 (and she was 19), she used me to get to my mother. My father took us (3 kids) to a beach house to visit friends for the weekend - supposedly giving my mother a weekend to herself to paint. We had a great time - beachfront in Malibu, sun, sea and sand all day. There was this really nice girl there, and she was SOOOO much fun - she joined hands with us and ran on the beach singing "Yellow Submarine" - she played games with us, built sandcastles, and at bedtime, came down and told us stories. We asked her to sleep with us, and she said, "Well, I would love to, but I have to get back upstairs because your father will be waiting for me." The next day, we all took a shower to wash the sand off before we went home, and she helped us wash our hair. Then she said, "Ooooh, I had a terrible dream last night! I dreamed your mother was chasing me around with a big knife!"

Of course, we went home and told our mother everything - all about this nice girl we met and what she had said. I remember going up to play, then coming down to set the table. My mother was putting the plates on the table and she was crying. I asked her what was wrong, and she said, "Don't tell Daddy I told you this, but that girl you met is the one who is causing problems between Daddy and me." I just remember going into some kind of shock, as if the whole world stopped for a moment. I realized that I had given my trust to someone who was hurting my mother, and hurting us. I don't think I ever recovered. For most of the rest of my childhood, I was practically mute - terrified of making friends, and terrified of saying anything that would hurt another person. When people say "children are resiliant", that's just a way of saying that children hide their wounds away as best they can, and it makes adults feel better - they don't always see them. I remain essentially wary and shy of people. It takes me a long time to trust someone - I sometimes think that I just don't know how to tell when I can trust someone. I think I am being trusting, but mostly I am just hoping they won't hurt me. And I don't know how to stick up for myself without getting angry (which is a good cover for fear) and lashing out.

But those are my "issues" which I am working on with the counsellor. The good outcome of this is that I went home and talked to my H about it. My dad had called while I was gone, and last week I had had to talk to my SM, as well - she is a very emotional person and leans very heavily on me to care for her. Anyway, I told my H about this, and he suggested I not call my dad back just yet. I then went over with him what I had talked about with my counselor - the incident when I was 9, and how that must have affected my ability to trust.

Then my H said, (which took me completely by surprise) "Yes, but your Dad CHOSE to be involved with her. It was a choice HE made and he WAS the older one, so more of the responsibility was his."
I just about dropped my teeth - I think I sat there with my mouth hanging open for a second. In Feb, he was saying things to OW2 like "We don't choose these things, they just happen, and we have to try our best to be responsible for our actions (meaning as long as we don't have sex, its ok).
I said "Yes, I totally agree with you - he did choose to be involved with her. But he is not responsible for her actions - the way she chose to behave towards his wife and children. He could have been with lover who remained in the background and did not choose to use his children."
"I know, that's true, he isn't responsible for her actions. But he chose to stay with someone who treated his children like that."

I couldn't believe I was hearing him say this - I felt so happy - I felt that he was finally coming out of his "fog" - that he HAS learned something, and that he was able to talk about it. I got the feeling that this was a "rule" or "value" that he had learned applied to himself as well.

You see, summer of '01, he was "in love" with his best friends 17 yr old daughter. And when I tried to talk to him about it, he just couldn't see why they couldn't be special friends. When I said "Well, for one thing, she is 17," that didn't seem to mean much to him. Since then, and OW2 came along, he has said OW1 is "history".

Well, I hope so - because he's probably going to see her TONIGHT! Best friend called him to come do a concert, and OW1 (his daughter, now almost 19) will most certainly be there. Now, they are all prof musicians - and as far as I am concerned, I accept that she is someone he is going to run into from time to time in a professional capacity. But I HOPE he has gone through enough to realize that he cannot "get personal" with anyone, without dire consequences to his marriage.

I didn't ask whether she would be there, and the truth is that it really doesn't have me spinning in circles. I feel so much better since we had that conversation. And he was affectionate and kind to me today b4 we left.

Like you said, ss, and it was very good of you to remind me, I should not always assume the worst. I hope I don't always.

Have to go now, will take this away and think about it some more. Oh, I have printed out the Dr Harley's Basic Concepts for him, but he hasn't had a chance to read it.

Will come back later,
Thanks everyone for your support. Maybe I am the tortoise who will win the race in the end!

LIR

LIR,
I have been fighting the tears as I have read this one. You have a right to your feelings, we have them for a reason, they are good and necessarry, but sometimes hard to cope with. Now I worry about what I may say. Really I don't try to tell you what to do, but try to give you ideas and perhaps more options.

One of the things that we ( Wife and I) have talked about is how we are different, and how that is good. I once expressed that I wish she were more like me so I could understand her better. She came back with " I thought you liked some of our differences." And you know, I do. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
I have come to realize ( OK, I am still coming, but I have a start) that we couldn't be male and female and complement each other like we do if not for those differences. BUT, IT IS HARD TO UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER SOMETIMES.

I believe it is going to be slow for you. That fear of yours is real, there are good reasons for it, and they won't go away with one ( even if it's good) discussion. You not only fear his anger, you fear that you may have the discussion and that it won't work and that you will have no where left to go if that happens. You fear that he will never understand and help with some things that you have to have to love him like you want.

There is a lot I could say, but probably I'll leave you to think for a few days.
LIR, you will have some bad days when every thing seems to fall apart. Always try and remember in the middle of the bad ones that you will also have good ones. Stall for time until the good replaces the bad.

Say, that could be a good conversation opener, "Honey, have you ever noticed how different we are in some ways?" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

SS

<small>[ September 18, 2002, 02:13 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

ss - that's a good one - a good conversation opener - I like that!

My H and I are quite different - that's what our friends often say - he appears to be light-hearted, I am the serious one - he's the joker, but I'm the straight man.

One thing I've told him is how much I appreciate that he can make me laugh - I don't always get the wittier jokes right off the bat, but he can usually get me to laugh in spite of myself! We have an expression "Joke light is on!"

But we are different in ways that I am probably not aware of, as well. That thing you said about the car, and driving and calling your wife at the motel - I appreciate your coming back to tell me that - because it seemed to me that he didn't care much whether he knew that I was safe - actually, he said something exactly like something you said - he said "Well, you're in the Fiat, aren't you? (That's our new car) - so you'll probably be fine." Its like you said - he measured up the odds and decided it wasn't worth losing any sleep over. Of course, he was right, but you know, us women, our job is to PREPARE for any emergency - ever wonder why some of us always seem to be able to whip out the band-aids from some hidden pocket? Or even the brandy? We are used to having to provide the toddlers with a snack every two hours - so we never leave home without everything to feed an army. This thinking ahead is always trying to answer the question what if? Its hard to adjust your thinking to realize that a guy doesn't waste time worrying what if, but if what if happens, he usually knows what to do!

Your answers help give me options that I wouldn't think of myself.

I do have my own "issues" - trust is a big one. I said in my counseling session - "I have had to deal with this woman (my SM) all of my life - (to rub salt in the wound, she and I have the same birthday) - I have had to share my dad with her all my life - why should I have to share my husband with another woman as well." And yet, accommodating another woman emotionally, and being afraid to confront, is a position I have lived with all my life. Life is really weird. I became a Catholic and married a dogmatic Catholic - I couldn't have married someone more opposite to my father in values, and yet I find myself entangled in the same kinds of dilemmas - which just goes to show that human nature is human nature - we are all subject to the same temptations, desires, fears and weaknesses, no matter what we profess to believe.

Well, I'm off to look at that thread on forgiveness. I would say that forgiveness is coming - I feel lighter since I told him I could forgive him, and I meant it when I said it.

But I still don't trust, yet.
Thanks again for taking the time with me.
LIR

OK, I tried again. I'm not sure what to think about this, but here goes.

Yesterday, I received an e-mail on my hotmail account from a mutual friend of ours. I had e-mailed him in the beginning of this (in Feb) asking for help and advice because I knew he had had an affair and got back together with his wife after a lot of IC and MC. He e-mailed me back and said he was willing to talk to both of us, but did not want to be involved in any secrets. I thought that was great! He has checked up on me from time to time, which I really appreciated - a howyadoin? type of e-mail, not too personal. I wished him a happy birthday from both of us bcos 9-11 was his b-day - he e-mailed back and said he was no longer living with his wife - they have split up again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Well, that IS sad. I printed out the e-mail and left it for my H to read when he got home. The next day he said thanks for giving him the e-mail. I said, well I just wanted you to know that I'm not hiding anything. He got a peculiar look on his face and said "What?" and he looked really uncomfortable. Then he said "What is it you are trying to tell me, because I get the feeling you are trying to tell me something." He seemed irritated, so I didn't want to wind him up any further. I took the softly softly approach (I think) and I said, "No, I'm just trying to be open with you." "Yeah?" he said, like "and?" and I said "Well, you said that I don't trust you, and I am trying to be transparent. Because the best way for us to trust each other again is to be open and honest and transparent with each other." "I don't really care who you talk to on your hotmail account," he said (I suppose meaning there must be something wrong with me if I care who he talks to on HIS). "Well," I said, "The thing is that talking about these things is what can help me to feel better, so I am just trying to talk about things." He took that on board. We were sitting at the dinner table with YS and didn't want to go any further in front of him.

After YS was in bed, I asked him if he wanted to talk to me about anything. He didn't really answer. So I said "I wasn't accusing you of anything earlier, I was just trying to say that it is a good thing to talk about things." "Yes," he said. "You want me to trust you and you can help me to trust you by talking to me about things," I said. "What things do you mean?" he said. I said "Well, the things that have happened to us this last year. I need to talk about this things in order to really feel better about us, and you can really help me with this." He said "Oh...well that is a whole different thing." (? What does he mean by this?) Then he said, "But I really need to go to bed now because I have to get up for work in the morning." And that was that.

Part of me is really frustrated and fighting the sadness again. I just want the "big breakthrough" - I want him to turn on the faucet and tell me everything he feels and felt and why he did what he did, even if he levels some of the blame at me, and what he thinks he wants now. Its so hard to go on without any of this. Without anything really, in the way of talking. I get so sad because it seems my H can talk to everyone except me - he can talk to older woman friend, he can talk to hours to young other women, he can listen to young other women's problems for hours, he can talk to male friends, he can talk to priests, but he WON'T talk to me. I just feel so used. Sometimes it seems I'm just here to wash the dishes. That's what I think when he won't talk to me. There - I'm feeling sorry for myself again.

Anyway, I have learned that he needs time to digest what I have said - so I am waiting again. He was OK this morning, and even called me by my name.

I look at things sometimes and think, I don't think my top EN's are being met here - how long am I expected to go on like this?

Hope that was not too depressing.

LIR

OK, I tried again. I'm not sure what to think about this, but here goes.

Well, I read it and I didn't know whether to laugh or cry. I finally got up from my desk and walked outside for a minute in the parking lot and then came back. I was going to think about it a while and reply but it came to me that you could probably use something before the weekend so as to help you be a little happier. So here it is - for what it's worth.

Lady, this is hard for me, I think I understand what is going on because you sound so much like my wife and I, but I don't know what is in his heart so you'll have to get that part from God who does know those kinds of things. I will say that it does not sound as bad as you think it is as far as his intentions. But, the communication needs work. The reason I say I didn't know to laugh or cry - It sounds so much like us it made me want to laugh - and you are so close but yet so far from making it work that I want to cry for you.

Well, that IS sad. I printed out the e-mail and left it for my H to read when he got home. The next day he said thanks for giving him the e-mail. I said, well I just wanted you to know that I'm not hiding anything. He got a peculiar look on his face and said "What?" and he looked really uncomfortable.
I can't really translate this part because I don't understand his feelings here, he has had EA's and they would affect his thoughts and response, and I have not and don't understand what he was thinking. One possibility - " is she trying to tell me something here?"
another - "what is she trying to say here? Should I be worried? Is there more going on than I can see on the face of things"

Then he said "What is it you are trying to tell me, because I get the feeling you are trying to tell me something." He seemed irritated, so I didn't want to wind him up any further. He could have been afraid you were confessing and it could have scared him. Or he could have thought you were trying to get him to talk about his EA's. I admit I can't really understand his thought processes here yet. I can clue you in as to how to help him better next time. I would have wanted it to go like this.

Then he said "What is it you are trying to tell me, because I get the feeling you are trying to tell me something."
LIR - "Well, I was so hurt by finding out about your EA that I thought I would share everything with you that I get, so you won't ever have to be afraid. I don't ever want you to be hurt like I was hurt."

I took the softly approach (I think) and I said, "No, I'm just trying to be open with you." "Yeah?" he said, like "and?" and I said "Well, you said that I don't trust you, and I am trying to be transparent. Because the best way for us to trust each other again is to be open and honest and transparent with each other."

He still doesn't know what you are getting at. He is trying to figure it out, but you are not blunt like he would be, so he is not getting it. You are talking about two different things and they don't relate in his mind. First is your trust for him, second is your showing him that he can trust you. He is still struggling with what you are getting at.

Finally it comes to him that you want him to trust you, and you are showing him this mail so he will know you are not hiding something from him.
"I don't really care who you talk to on your hotmail account,"
Translation - Honey, I trust you completely, you don't need to show me your mail. (unsaid - don't scare me like that.)

I suppose meaning there must be something wrong with me if I care who he talks to on HIS).

I think he was trying to say he trusts you, but you have made a good point. He does not understand how what he did affects your feelings and he doesn't know it still is eating away at you the way it is. There is more to this. He hasn't read the hundreds of posts about how EA's turn into PA's. He doesn't know how close he was. He doesn't understand how dangerous a position he was in. He doesn't realize that he almost lost everything he holds dear. He really believes his story that they were just friends ( at least part of him does) . Part of him knows that something was not right, but he had a vague uneasiness that it wasn't right, not the understanding that you have. For him, that uneasiness has passed and he has forgotten about the bad feelings he had. THIS IS NOT THE SAME FOR HIM THAT IT IS FOR YOU.

So, yes that may be a part of his feelings but ( my feeling is) it is not quite the way you stated it. We can say the same thing different ways.
"You jerk, you are always wrong."
" I think I will have to disagree with you about this."

Lets say that his perception is different than yours, and he doesn't understand your feelings. He was trying to tell you that he trusts you, and he doesn't understand why you are still hurt and worried about him. I hope this is making sense.

"Well," I said, "The thing is that talking about these things is what can help me to feel better, so I am just trying to talk about things." He took that on board. We were sitting at the dinner table with YS and didn't want to go any further in front of him. After YS was in bed, I asked him if he wanted to talk to me about anything. He didn't really answer. So I said "I wasn't accusing you of anything earlier, I was just trying to say that it is a good thing to talk about things." "Yes," he said. "You want me to trust you and you can help me to trust you by talking to me about things," I said. "What things do you mean?" he said. I said "Well, the things that have happened to us this last year. I need to talk about this things in order to really feel better about us, and you can really help me with this." He said "Oh...well that is a whole different thing."

You made a good start, and told him that talking would help you feel better, but he didn't get it. Here is where I would go from here. Pretend this conversation takes place sometime in the next few days.

H, remember the e-mail I got from XXXXXX the other day and then I tried to talk to you?
Yes, I remember.
Did you understand what I was getting at?

His answer here will tell you if I am on the right track. I bet he says no. ( SS thinks some more, and another thought comes. ) However, some men who are know it alls, like me, never say they don't understand, but you would know this about him by now and could ask questions to see if he understood.)

So, you go on -
Let me give you some background information. I want to clear up the confusion I left you with. You may have noticed that I had different feelings about your friendship with OW1 and OW2 than you did.
Yes, I noticed.
I think I am starting to understand at least some of the reasons we feel differently about this.
Story of father - or just mention it as a reason if he knows the story. Dwell on the hurt you experienced.
Talk about how some of those feelings came back when he had the EA, but use terms that he is comfortable with. ( probably don't call it EA yet, until he understands. ) Tell him again about how you feared a repeat of your fathers story.
Go into what will help you trust. Tell him you love him and believe he loves you but then ask for help and tell him what you need. Be really specific.

"Oh...well that is a whole different thing." (? What does he mean by this?)
In his mind, you changed the subject - He thought you were seeking his trust and he simply told you in mars language that he trusted you. Then, you bring up your feelings about him and he can't see the relationship. For reasons mentioned above.

Then he said, "But I really need to go to bed now because I have to get up for work in the morning." And that was that. Part of me is really frustrated and fighting the sadness again. I just want the "big breakthrough" - I want him to turn on the faucet and tell me everything he feels and felt and why he did what he did, even if he levels some of the blame at me, and what he thinks he wants now. Its so hard to go on without any of this. Without anything really, in the way of talking.
Really, you should be glad you didn't have to live with me the first 20 years of our marriage. See, I just only got it a few years ago, and only really changed the way I do things this last year. ( 25 years for us last march) I know there are those that get it much sooner, but some of us take time and it is a slow process. You are going to have these talks over and over and you will gradually get closer and closer. You won't be able to measure it from day to day or even perhaps from week to week. Next year you will look back and say " My, how far we have come.." But next month you may still wonder if you will ever get anywhere.

I get so sad because it seems my H can talk to everyone except me - he can talk to older woman friend, he can talk to hours to young other women, he can listen to young other women's problems for hours, he can talk to male friends, he can talk to priests, but he WON'T talk to me. I just feel so used. Sometimes it seems I'm just here to wash the dishes. There are more reasons than one for this, I don't pretend to know them all. Here are a few.
You are afraid of him. It shows up in how you react to him, and how he reacts to you. Sometimes we call it tension between people. You are afraid of his anger, and that he will repeat his mistakes, or your fathers mistakes.

The mistrust and anger you have comes out in your attitude. You don't want it to, but it does. It affects all your relationships with him and affects the way you think about what he does and says. This is one of the things he should know at the end of the conversation you want to have. This is not something you can control with conscious thought. Prayer can really help here. He needs to know you have these feelings, that you are trying to change them, and that you are seeking his help to do so. Its all about background information.

When others talk to him, they are not worried about where the conversation is going. They are natural and not afraid. They don't set out to have a R talk. They don't expect a certain outcome. They are not disappointed if he doesn't react a certain way. Every time they see him they are happy and glad to see him. He feels this. He doesn't know about any of it, but he feels it and reacts to it.

That's what I think when he won't talk to me. There - I'm feeling sorry for myself again. Anyway, I have learned that he needs time to digest what I have said - so I am waiting again. He was OK this morning, and even called me by my name. I look at things sometimes and think, I don't think my top EN's are being met here - how long am I expected to go on like this?

You have a right to your feelings. You really do. Since you feel these things, they are real for you and affect your life. I don't want to give the idea that I believe all is well, or that I don't care about your feelings or that I don't think they are important or valid. I agree with you that it stinks like it is now. I agree that you shouldn't have to put up with it. I think you deserve better. I must say, that I am glad my wife put up with me and didn't quit.

You have the right to these feelings but you don't have the right to stay where you are. You have to work to change things. Because you have understanding, you have to do the work.

How long? You tell us. How long can you go on? Set a goal here. Can you go a year from now? Make a list of what you want to accomplish. Both what you need to do, and what you want and expect from him. One of the things on it should be that you want to give him the list at some point and have him understand it, and agree to help with it.

Hope that was not too depressing.
Nah, what are friends for.

Here is an exercise for you.
Next time you are with him when he is happy, watch him. When he is busy, and not paying attention to you, close your eyes. Think of the words to the Lion King song by Elton John. "But, can you feel the love tonight." Just what can you feel, there with him with your eyes closed. Can you feel some love, perhaps a bond, some strength, some hope? Please come back and tell me how it works for you.

I have another one for you in a few weeks, don't let me forget.

SS

OK, just a few more thoughts.
Don't feel bad for your feelings.
Don't apologize for them.
I could tell you stories about my own down days and thoughts much worse than you have vocalized here, but that's not what I am here for - so, play "California Girl's" by the beach boys and have a nice day.

<small>[ September 20, 2002, 01:52 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Thanks so much, ss - you really are a peach - how did you get to be so wise?

Reading back over your "take" on this conversation is so illuminating - I feel like you are my "translator" here for awhile - I just don't speak the Martian language very well yet - but everything you said makes sense.

I CAN see how I am confusing for him to talk to - I also forgot to put in one exchange - when he asked me what I was trying to say, he said "Why don't you just say what you want to say?" and I said "Well, maybe I'm afraid. I have had so many negative reactions in the past that maybe I'm afraid." He looked sad.

But you have given me some positive ideas - I like the one about "you and I see your "friendships" with OW1 and OW2 differently" - this is something I just would not think of to say. I REALLY struggle with wording things like this, because my fear of confrontation is so great and my own hurt and insecurity is still alive in my heart.

I am comforted by the understanding that this is not an uncommon thing between men and women - the depth of the degree of misunderstanding.

The next day, yesterday, he was happy and flirted with me outrageously - always a sign that he is attracted to me and wants to tell me so, that he loves me. I am feeling much more that he really does love me. If we could have a conversation as confused as that and he still feels relaxed with me enough to flirt with me, then I take it to mean that he does really love me. When he was distracted by OW1 and OW2, he was very distant and did not flirt at all.

Also, the day after he saw OW1 (remember he did a concert where I thought she would probably be there), I asked him how the concert went. He started talking to me about it, and we talked normally about all the people who were there that he hadn't seen in a long time. Finally, I said, "Did OW1 show up, or is she too busy with other stuff to do this kind of thing now?" Casual-like. He was equally casual back. He said "Oh, yeah, she showed up at the last minute." In a way, it kind of broke the ice about that. I have heard it said that indifference is the sign of an attraction being at an end. I think I got that feeling there. I wanted him to feel comfortable. I think he did.

Boy am I dense sometimes! The atmosphere on Venus, you know is incredibly cloudy!

H is a classical musician par excellence, but you know what - he loves Elton John - and the Carpenters! AND the Beach Boys - so do I - boy does that bring back memories! Weather here in the UK is turning cloudy and grey, so time to crank up the Beach Boys, I think!

God bless you, ss - thank God for your insight.

Have a good weekend!
LIR

Gotta be quick here -

Is H showing signs of being responsible?

First, I have been reading a lot about co-dependency and am trying to get a grip on how "enabling" I am in our R.

So tonight he comes home from work at 5-30 and says he has fixed up to go out for a drink with a friend at 7-30, is that all right with me?

Well, it isn't really - he wasn't home until 11-30 last night (working and visiting w/ his B) - so YS didn't see him at all yesterday. So I would like him to be home for dinner and bedtime tonight, if truth be told.

I said, "Well, I don't mind you going out for a drink with X (male friend), but could you go out at 9, after YS goes to bed?"

He said he couldn't because he already agreed to meet and couldn't get a hold of him. So I said, "Hmm, it would be nice if these single men could think about making times that are more agreeable to family times when they make arrangements with family men."

He said, "No, no! It wasn't his fault. It was me who should have thought of that. But I didn't - I'm only half with it today. I'm sorry."

I said, "OK, I'm not trying to make you feel guilty." We were both laughing.

He said, "Well, I do!"

I said, "Well, I can't make you stop feeling guilty either - that's your business if you do."

I told him he owed me a game of backgammon and he went out. We were both good-natured.

Five minutes later he called me on his mobile and asked if there would be enough dinner for X if he brought him home. I said sure, why don't you both come home and have dinner and then go out for a drink? But he said they were more likely to have a beer and then come back for something to eat.

Is that good?

Feels good. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Good for both of us?

Whew!

LIR

Made me smile.

Are you doing anything different? Or is it him that's changing his direction? Or both?

In other words, is this something that you can understand what made it good, and repeat?

I am doing some thinking, and when finished, will come back with a little more. Perhaps I will even do a little work. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

SS

I think something you have said many times to me, ss, together with what I have been reading about co-dependency helped - you said I haven't been honest with my feelings.

You see, I had thought that I was being supportive of him in a specific way. First, I told myself I would never stand in the way of his career, I would never say no if he wanted to accept a job, I would encourage him. So I suppressed a lot of my resentment when I didn't get the pay-off I thought I deserved for never saying no to what he wanted.

I also decided I wouldn't try to make him feel bad about staying at home, so if he wanted to go out with friends, I wouldn't ask questions - I thought he would resent me if he felt 'in prison' as it were. But I did resent it when he went out without me, or went out when the kids were still up, or went out and didn't then make time for me as well, later.

So, I have listened to you and decided to try to express my feelings in a non-confrontational way - that's what I was trying to do by putting it the way I did. And he GOT it! I was so surprised! Also, he realized his mistake without blaming me for making him feel guilty. We really were both laughing about him feeling guilty! But he felt since he had made an arrangement already, he couldn't back out. So he called me, and they came back an hour later (after they had a beer) and the friend had dinner with us, saw YS, and YS was happy and excited to have both Daddy and a visitor - and went to bed happy.

I finally felt like he SHARED with me - didn't shut me out of his social life just because we have kids and someone has to be there for them.

I was really pleased he figured out the best solution. That was great. I think we are both moving in the right direction. Its nice to have something positive to say.

You have really helped me, ss - but I do worry that you need to spend time at your work - don't you think the MB boards can be a little addictive? What do you think about that? I know its a question which comes up from time to time here.

Have a good day!
LIR

You have really helped me, ss - but I do worry that you need to spend time at your work - don't you think the MB boards can be a little addictive? What do you think about that? I know its a question which comes up from time to time here.

I own the company, but sometimes I have deadlines to meet too.

It's a small company so it's not like I have appointments with the president of Ford or anything.

Sometimes I am typing when I should be working, but I think it's important to help when we can help, we are not here to see how much money we can make or even how comfortable we can be in retirement. Christ said he came to do the will of his father, and then he said we should be like he is. So, I have to think if we help our fellow men, God will help us, perhaps to keep from going bankrupt. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I have deadlines today but not as bad tomorrow. See you then. I have finished the work ones, but have daughters Choir concert tonight.

I worry that it might be thought that I don't care, because I do. So, I hate to be gone to many days in a row.

This can be typed pretty fast, when I comment on peoples lives, it takes a lot of thought, hence more time.

" I wish they all could be California girls." I can say that cause my W is from C. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

SS

Hi,
Hope LIR is doing well today.

I think I will just talk a little today, and will reference some things we have discussed but not quote anything specific until down near the end.

Perhaps I will even "wax philosophical" a little today. I am going to hit all around.

You once asked how I got so wise. I don't often feel wise except when helping first graders with their math, or telling my dog how to fix everything that is wrong with the world. ( Dog never asks questions, or gives counterpoints.) We often can't see our own problems clearly because our emotions are involved and they cloud things. I have seen many of your posts and I feel you have a great deal of wisdom. I should put it stronger, I know you have a great deal of Wisdom.

What happens is that FEAR comes into your relationship with your own H. When you give advice here, there is no fear. When you speak to your own H, you must be very careful how you approach, what you say, etc. etc. There is a good thread that covers fear and it talks about what you said about H being able to talk to everyone but you. At least it touches on it from one perspective. It also discusses how we can get our spouse to meet our needs. I have included it here but to understand the fear part you should read the whole thing, much of which is not focused on what you want. The fear part is discussed by JL and you already know how valuable that would be.
Discussion on fear, training spouse
It is a long read, but I think it is worth it. Remember, only a small part pertains to you but I feel you need the background to get maximum good from that small part.

That brings me to talking about background. Men and women are different in many ways. We can understand the physical pretty well but we have problems with the emotional. We struggle to find common ground that helps us understand each other's feelings. Often my W will explain to me how she feels and I still won't understand. I re-state how I believe she feels in different words and she says "NO, THAT'S NOT IT," and she tries again. The more background she can give, the easier it is for me to understand. I find that I usually explain things far more than people want sometimes so as to avoid misunderstanding. I feel it is better to over explain than to under explain. I feel that this is one of the things you two need to practice.

His feelings are so different than yours that he just can't get what you are trying to say much of the time. I know this part from personal experience as I mentioned above. So, the more you can give background, the easier it is for him. That's why I encouraged you to tell your story about your father, and your feelings and how they affect you even today. That's why I encourage you to explain your feelings in detail to him and ask for his help. Many times we don't get across that we are hurt and need help, our words sound like an attack on the other persons actions.

" It is wrong for you to be e-mailing other girls like you were."
Or
" I feel hurt because it appears that you communicate more with her and enjoy it more than you do with me."
If you use the second way, you can ( and need to) tell why the feelings are hurt. If H denies he did anything wrong then it goes this way.

"I am not talking about you, I am saying my feelings are hurt and I need your help working through them." The problem is turned from an attack on them, ( at least they perceive it that way.) to asking for help. I think you are getting this part now.

As far as not being honest with feelings - When we care about someone like he cares for you (and it is pretty plain that he does) we want to help. We need to understand the other's needs and desires before we CAN help. I have a friend that sometimes comes home to a frantic wife. I heard him ask " Do you need a solution, or are you just wanting to vent." She said "vent" and went on. When finished, he hugged her, made remarks that said he understood and they were finished .......and both happy. He can't always tell what she wants, but has learned to ask. She knows he doesn't think like she does, so she is happy to tell him what she needs.

It's that basic understanding that I am looking for you BOTH to have. The understanding that you are different, that you process hurt, pain, and even mis-understanding differently, but that you can talk about it calmly until you are both happy.
Perhaps the biggest differences we have are Male and Female. We don't think the same way, but there are many others. Age, educational, musical, cultural, language, religious, and others. All of these shape our perception of what is going on, and what is being said, so it is more than just "I'm telling him, but he is not getting it." He may really want to get it, but he is on the AM band, and you are on FM. Part of the background information you both need to know is that you love each other. It is not always understood in the heat of the discussion. Also, that you have respect for the other and want them to be happy with the solution as well as yourself. When one is reminded of these two basic things, it always helps the discussion proceed to a better end. (OK, almost always.)

I had thought that I was being supportive of him in a specific way. First, I told myself I would never stand in the way of his career, I would never say no if he wanted to accept a job, I would encourage him. So I suppressed a lot of my resentment when I didn't get the pay-off I thought I deserved for never saying no to what he wanted. I also decided I wouldn't try to make him feel bad about staying at home, so if he wanted to go out with friends, I wouldn't ask questions - I thought he would resent me if he felt 'in prison' as it were. But I did resent it when he went out without me, or went out when the kids were still up, or went out and didn't then make time for me as well, later.m So, I have listened to you and decided to try to express my feelings in a non-confrontational way - that's what I was trying to do by putting it the way I did. And he GOT it! I was so surprised! Also, he realized his mistake without blaming me for making him feel guilty. We really were both laughing about him feeling guilty!
I think you get it now. I have found that once ONE understands, they can guide the other to where they want to be.

I think we are both moving in the right direction. Its nice to have something positive to say.
It's nice to be able to read it. I am happy for you. It seems to me that when we have respect, honesty, and communication that we always have love too. ( in marriage at least.)

I have found with W and I that if we can't come to an agreement, it is always lack of understanding. We give each other background until one or the other figures it out. "I feel this, and this is why." and also " here is a reason why I feel this way"

I will say again that THERE WILL STILL BE TIMES WHEN IT WON'T WORK. You just need to wait a day and come back and try again with more background information. Sometimes you will find that he is wrong, sometimes it will be you. I have learned to admit ( well, sometimes anyway) my mistakes and it feels good to see her smile when I "get it."

I think you have about a 99% chance now. Perhaps better than that.
SS

<small>[ September 26, 2002, 11:35 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Thanks, ss -

It really helps to have an "overview" perspective on things. I am doing OK - I have been off the forum because I am working on some program notes for a concert (I get paid to write them - free-lance - classical music) - which taxes my tiny mind. I read and read and listen and listen and cogitate for days just to write a page of words. But it feels good to be putting my brain to some use again.

From having a "good" encounter, we then slipped backwards a couple of days ago - rather "I" slipped backwards, to take responsiblity for myself.

On Thurs, H was working on his taxes (not a good day to try to talk). He asked me to find some bank statements for him, which I did, except a chunk of them were missing, so I had to go rooting on my desk for them. Then he said, "By the way, I paid off the car on Sunday - I paid it all off £1200." Well, of course, I'm happy about this, and impressed that he could do this. BUT - here goes Venus - he didn't talk to me first about this decision - he didn't ask me or consult with me and the money came out of his own bank account. I'm thinking - where did he get all that money? There's only £25 left in OUR joint account - and I have put off paying the school for a mouthgard for OS and buying new shoes for YS for two weeks until "I" get paid. So all my triggers were flipped. But I TRIED to keep my cool. I didn't say anything then, but later, when he was in the kitchen and I was getting ready to go shopping, which would run our account into the overdraft (he knew this), I said "So how much money do you have left in your account?"
"Not much really"
"Well, I'm glad you paid off the car, but I thought we were supposed to be making these decisions together."
"Hmmm"
"Do you want to talk about this?"
"Nope!" (His hackles are rising)
"So you don't want to talk about this."
Then I got mad.
"So really we're no further along on this than we were last July."
"Nope!" (Now he's really bugged)
"Well, fine, then, why don't you just keep a mistress - because that's basically what it amounts to, when you are the one making all these decisions with YOUR money!"
And I slammed out of the house to go shopping.

When I came back, I was still mad and so was he - we were frosty with each other all evening.
At one point, he accused me of "talking in front of YS". I said he refused to talk at all which I thought was pretty damn obstructive and I didn't have to like it. I said if he wanted things to be better between us, he had to make an effort and talking about things we both agreed would be a good thing.

After YS was in bed, he came and brought his work on to the table where I was. I offered him some dessert. The mood softened. So I whipped out a video I got out of the library - yes, you guessed it - Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus - I mean, if he won't read anything maybe he'll watch a video! I said could we watch 10 minutes - he GRUDGINGLY agreed. So I put it on - we watched 17 min - I could see that he was intrigued. I said "Could you relate to any of that?" He said "Vaguely".

Other things happened - I can't go into them - I think he may wake up soon - just say that they had to do with money - not enough money in our account - and his procrastination.

Friday morning, he gets up early and comes down to read with me - he is in a good mood.
Then I found a check on the table and a note, when I came home from work - "Here is the money for YS shoes - Love, H" And last night, he is in a great mood.

I know I gave in to anger and frustration, and that wasn't altogether good, but I also see that he does love me - it may be that he doesn't see why things need to change. Why can't he see that so many of the things that have happened to us are because of this - just paying the bills is not the answer - communication and joint decisions are the answer. In one sense, I feel we have come a long way, in others, haven't progressed much at all. But at least I am no longer tripping over the elephant. When there was an OW, he would have stayed mad and got madder and justified his anger.

Well, its slow going, but there is still a 99% chance. And that's a lot.

Take care, ss - read your post on SC thread - don't burn your eyebrows off! Whatever it is you're doing with that blowtorch!!!

LIR

OK, I'm back to be more specific -

<strong>Perhaps I will even "wax philosophical" a little today. I am going to hit all around.</strong>
Wax philosophical as much as you like - I'm listening!

<strong>
What happens is that FEAR comes into your relationship with your own H. When you give advice here, there is no fear. When you speak to your own H, you must be very careful how you approach, what you say, etc. etc.</strong>
Yes, this is absolutely right. I often feel I can say something that might help someone else, but my own emotions take over when I'm trying to deal with myself and with "us". Fear is a huge factor for me, and in fact, it is what I have asked my counselor this week to help me deal with, and what I have just started praying about - for the grace to help me overcome my fear.

<strong>There is a good thread that covers fear and it talks about what you said about H being able to talk to everyone but you. At least it touches on it from one perspective. It also discusses how we can get our spouse to meet our needs. I have included it here but to understand the fear part you should read the whole thing, much of which is not focused on what you want. The fear part is discussed by JL and you already know how valuable that would be.
Discussion on fear, training spouse
It is a long read, but I think it is worth it. Remember, only a small part pertains to you but I feel you need the background to get maximum good from that small part.</strong>
Thank you for this - I will read it.

<strong>That brings me to talking about background. Men and women are different in many ways. We can understand the physical pretty well but we have problems with the emotional. We struggle to find common ground that helps us understand each other's feelings. Often my W will explain to me how she feels and I still won't understand. I re-state how I believe she feels in different words and she says "NO, THAT'S NOT IT," and she tries again. The more background she can give, the easier it is for me to understand. I find that I usually explain things far more than people want sometimes so as to avoid misunderstanding. I feel it is better to over explain than to under explain. I feel that this is one of the things you two need to practice.</strong>
I think this is probably right, too. One reason I have felt so angry about things is that my H knows about my background - or so I thought. He knows that my dad left us for OW, and since he knows her personally, he knows just how crazy and manipulative she can be. He knows also how badly she hurt me as a child, and also, as a grown-up. He knew my brother who died last year - so I felt he knew and understood the cost of infidelity. Last year, when I first discovered his growing attachment to OW1, I wrote him a letter and one of the things I said was that "I have lived with the legacy of infidelity all my life...going down that road is like following a firefly into a swamp..."
At one point, when we were still arguing, and he was in R with OW2, I said, "I warned you about taking us into the swamp, and now here we are, RIGHT in it!" Looking back, I realize that these were statements of blame, but also of pleading, not to put us through what I had already lived through as a child. But he didn't hear me. What is different now? I think I have been doing a decent plan A - trying to change what I can about myself which contributed to his unhappiness with me, and also trying to further myself as a person, so that I was not so emotionally dependent on him. So that I was a happier person regardless of his actions. And also, perhaps, OW2 is physically off the scene, so he has had time now to get over her (I know that this was hard for him, as he said so in his e-mails to her in March - that he was going to have to cope with her loss when she returned to France (that he would have to "make friends with loneliness" (uurrgh!) and also because he exploded at me the weekend she left - basically he was a mess. But it has been 3 months now, and he is a human being again - I feel like we actually have a chance of communicating now, whereas when she was on the scene, there was no chance of communicating. Only one thought - my friend told me OW2 is coming back in November to walk through her degree ceremony - presumably she will have BF and adoring parents with her, but I hope that doesn't "revive old memories" for both of them. I hear that she is doing a teacher-training course in France.

<strong>His feelings are so different than yours that he just can't get what you are trying to say much of the time.</strong>
This must explain the blank looks I get. I have been interpreting this as him just not being interested, or not caring.
<strong> I know this part from personal experience as I mentioned above. So, the more you can give background, the easier it is for him. That's why I encouraged you to tell your story about your father, and your feelings and how they affect you even today. That's why I encourage you to explain your feelings in detail to him and ask for his help. Many times we don't get across that we are hurt and need help, our words sound like an attack on the other persons actions.</strong>
Perhaps I have never been specific enough about my feelings about my childhood hurts (background) - but has seemed to me that he is not really interested - because HE doesn't talk and share about himself after I have shared about myself, I have felt like he either doesn't get it or is not interested. He NEVER says "Yes, I can understand that - like when I...." There is never reciprocal sharing, so I don't get that he understands. If he could relate some personal experience of his own to some personal experience of mine, then I would feel that YES feeling which would make me feel understood and SAFE. Because if someone understands how important something is to you, they are not so likely to do something that would hurt you. Anyway, that's how my thinking/feeling tends to go - perhaps I just interpret his silences wrong and I just get frustrated, angry and give up.

"I am not talking about you, I am saying my feelings are hurt and I need your help working through them." The problem is turned from an attack on them, ( at least they perceive it that way.) to asking for help. I think you are getting this part now.

<strong> We need to understand the other's needs and desires before we CAN help. I have a friend that sometimes comes home to a frantic wife. I heard him ask " Do you need a solution, or are you just wanting to vent." She said "vent" and went on. When finished, he hugged her, made remarks that said he understood and they were finished .......and both happy. He can't always tell what she wants, but has learned to ask. She knows he doesn't think like she does, so she is happy to tell him what she needs.</strong>
Yes, I get you here - its like you said about giving him all the answers to the test before you test him. I think he is JUST getting to the point where he realizes it would be a good thing to find out what I am thinking. For example, when my sister-in-law committed suicide last November, he got home from work, and immediately rushed back to London to be with his brother. We were all in a total state, as you can imagine. It was days before I saw him, and a week later, I was feeling really awful - torn up with guilt because I was supposed to call her that weekend and hadn't - and there was just no consolation from H - nothing. Finally I said, "Are you going to ask me how I am feeling?" I SO needed to talk to him. He said "Why should I ask? I already know how you feel!" (I feel sick when I write this). I know he didn't mean to hurt me, nor did I mean to hurt him, but to not be able to comfort me at a time like that - I think I was able to offer him comfort - I listened while he talked, one of the few times he has needed to talk. But there was nothing for me and no interest at all. Of course, there was also OW2 at that time.

<strong>It's that basic understanding that I am looking for you BOTH to have. The understanding that you are different, that you process hurt, pain, and even mis-understanding differently, but that you can talk about it calmly until you are both happy.
Perhaps the biggest differences we have are Male and Female. We don't think the same way, but there are many others. Age, educational, musical, cultural, language, religious, and others. All of these shape our perception of what is going on, and what is being said, so it is more than just "I'm telling him, but he is not getting it." He may really want to get it, but he is on the AM band, and you are on FM. Part of the background information you both need to know is that you love each other. It is not always understood in the heat of the discussion. Also, that you have respect for the other and want them to be happy with the solution as well as yourself. When one is reminded of these two basic things, it always helps the discussion proceed to a better end. (OK, almost always.)[qb]
This is what I am looking for, too.

[qb]I have found with W and I that if we can't come to an agreement, it is always lack of understanding. We give each other background until one or the other figures it out. "I feel this, and this is why." and also " here is a reason why I feel this way" </strong>
Yes, this is true. By the way, I went back to him today and said "You know, I AM glad that you paid off the car - that was a very good thing to do and I am impressed that you were able to do it in one shot. I was just upset because you didn't discuss it with me first."
He said, "Well, I wasn't going to - I was only going to pay him half, but as I sat there with my checkbook in my hand, I thought how he (his B) has just quit his job and needed the money. Also, I had said that I would pay him back so I didn't want to drag it out, and give him something to hold against me - some reason for him to think I am irresponsible with money."
I said, "I understand, and I agree with you."
So I am glad we got that smoothed over - its just that we still haven't tackled the "joint finances" issue yet.

<strong>I will say again that THERE WILL STILL BE TIMES WHEN IT WON'T WORK. You just need to wait a day and come back and try again with more background information. Sometimes you will find that he is wrong, sometimes it will be you. I have learned to admit ( well, sometimes anyway) my mistakes and it feels good to see her smile when I "get it."</strong>
Yes, it is good to be reminded of this. I would also like to say that I realize that I let my anger run away with me - specifically when I asked him if he wanted to "talk about this right now" - and he said "Nope" - I should have just let it drop and said "OK, maybe later," and let things cool off, and tried again later. I may have had a better result without all the hard feelings. THAT is where I need to work on things. Thankfully, he seems willing to try to work with me.

We have had another conversation about mobiles, but I will have to go into that tomorrow. I am supposed to be making dinner!

Thanks again, ss

Hope you and your wife celebrated your birthday in style!

Hello, and a very Merry Christmas to you today.
( I belong to the procrastinators club, this is for 1998)

I am doing OK
Good ! I worry about everyone. I even worry about me.

I have been off the forum because I am working on some program notes for a concert (I get paid to write them - free-lance - classical music) - which taxes my tiny mind. I read and read and listen and listen and cogitate for days just to write a page of words. But it feels good to be putting my brain to some use again.
You should see how long it takes me to compose some of these replies!!!!

from having a "good" encounter, we then slipped backwards a couple of days ago - rather "I" slipped backwards, to take responsibility for myself.
Well, I certainly won't !!! ( for you, I mean, I usually do for me. ) I only make mistakes on week days, and week ends, but never in between, so I hardly ever have to own up to anything.

By the way, I paid off the car on Sunday - I paid it all off £1200." Well, of course, I'm happy about this, and impressed that he could do this. BUT - here goes Venus - he didn't talk to me first about this decision - he didn't ask me or consult with me and the money came out of his own bank account. I'm thinking - where did he get all that money?
Is there a bank he frequents with a mask?
I mean, I wish he believed in POJA. So tell me where you are on the POJA concept. At our house, I believe in it, and my w says she does but is still TRYING to ACT like she does. ( She is good much of the time, but she wrote a $100.00 check a few weeks ago that caused a pretty good row around here.) And it really isn't "here goes Venus." Money should be shared and major decisions should be POJA'd. So again, what does he know about it and has he agreed to do it?

There's only £25 left in OUR joint account - and I have put off paying the school for a mouthgard for OS and buying new shoes for YS for two weeks until "I" get paid. So all my triggers were flipped. But I TRIED to keep my cool.
You perhaps did better than I would have. Yes, this is bad. First thought was if he has agreed to POJA then what the heck is going on. 2nd thought was a question. Just what kind of differences are there in his life that may make this normal for him. I mean, some people kill their enemies and keep their heads as a souvenir and they think it is OK. So I wondered if he was raised like this- to keep the money and it is just the way it is for him. I have no background here to go on.

I didn't say anything then, but later, when he was in the kitchen and I was getting ready to go shopping, which would run our account into the overdraft (he knew this), I said "So how much money do you have left in your account?""Not much really""Well, I'm glad you paid off the car, but I thought we were supposed to be making these decisions together.""Hmmm""Do you want to talk about this?""Nope!" (His hackles are rising)
I am not sure if he thought you would be happy about paying off the car and it hurt that you were not, or what. I am having a hard time reading this one. Perhaps you know?
"So you don't want to talk about this."Then I got mad."So really we're no further along on this than we were last July.""Nope!" (Now he's really bugged)"Well, fine, then, why don't you just keep a mistress - because that's basically what it amounts to, when you are the one making all these decisions with YOUR money!"And I slammed out of the house to go shopping.When I came back, I was still mad and so was he - we were frosty with each other all evening.
So, are you and I related?
I sure hope you have good sense of humor because I seem to be on one tonight. ( I am mountain time zone and the MB server that time stamps the posts is central time, so I am one hour later than whatever time it says. I believe you are 7 hours earlier than the MB server.)

LIR says " So, H, lets stop and start over and see if we can do a little better this time. How do we get going like this when we love each other so much?

I have actually used this one - and sometimes it even works.

At one point, he accused me of "talking in front of YS".
Standard for him to do this when hurt.

I said he refused to talk at all which I thought was pretty damn obstructive and I didn't have to like it. I said if he wanted things to be better between us, he had to make an effort and talking about things we both agreed would be a good thing.
Ouch ! Ouch ! Ouch !

LIR says " H, I love you and you love me. I don't know how we can go so far down hill sometimes, ( or however you would put it) but I am sorry for my part in it. I really am happy you paid off the car. It is good to be finished with that. I let my concern for other things sound like anger and that was bad, so can I tell you what my feelings were and why ( I think) it came out the way it did?

After YS was in bed, he came and brought his work on to the table where I was. I offered him some dessert. The mood softened. So I whipped out a video I got out of the library - yes, you guessed it - Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus - I mean, if he won't read anything maybe he'll watch a video! I said could we watch 10 minutes - he GRUDGINGLY agreed. So I put it on - we watched 17 min - I could see that he was intrigued. I said "Could you relate to any of that?" He said "Vaguely".
So sounds like you did your version of what I said. So I probably didn't have to say it.

Other things happened - I can't go into them
Well actually, I could take this two ways.

I think he may wake up soon - just say that they had to do with money - not enough money in our account - and his procrastination. Friday morning, he gets up early and comes down to read with me - he is in a good mood. Then I found a check on the table and a note, when I came home from work - "Here is the money for YS shoes - Love, H" And last night, he is in a great mood.
Why was he in better mood?
Looks like ( background, background) he is from a planet where the H keeps the money and gives it out as needed. If this is the case, he is being nice and he thinks all is well.

I know I gave in to anger and frustration, and that wasn't altogether good, but I also see that he does love me - it may be that he doesn't see why things need to change. Why can't he see that so many of the things that have happened to us are because of this - just paying the bills is not the answer - communication and joint decisions are the answer.
Repeat after me.
Slow and steady, slow and steady, slow and steady, slow and steady, slow and steady.

in one sense, I feel we have come a long way, in others, haven't progressed much at all. But at least I am no longer tripping over the elephant. When there was an OW, he would have stayed mad and got madder and justified his anger.
I am very glad that you can see some progress but it will be slow.

Well, its slow going, but there is still a 99% chance.
OOPS, you already have that slow part down. Sorry !

read your post on SC thread - don't burn your eyebrows off! Whatever it is you're doing with that blowtorch!!!
I was afraid I would get flamed for recommending he write his wife a love note while in plan B. Turns out, no one did flame me.

Well, really you are doing well. Don't feel bad. I really have come right out in the middle of an angry conversation and stopped it and asked if we could start over. I just say something like "Well, since we are in love and we know it, why don't we start over and act like it."
It has worked and we have been able to recover. Sometimes I have just stopped it and suggested we start over later and that works too.

The reason I say you are doing well is that you can see the good and bad parts and are trying to adapt and change so there is more good. That's they way we all do it.

You seem to infer that the two of you have worked out the money things but that he isn't doing what you agreed ??

If so, there is no real POJA so you would need to do it again. However, I know that he doesn't know all the concepts yet and hasn't agreed to all of them so I am not sure what you have discussed and what you have not.

Yes, this is absolutely right. I often feel I can say something that might help someone else, but my own emotions take over when I'm trying to deal with myself and with "us". Fear is a huge factor for me, and in fact, it is what I have asked my counselor this week to help me deal with, and what I have just started praying about - for the grace to help me overcome my fear.

Prayer will be the best help. It is the only thing that has never failed me in my whole life.

Here is a quote from the mega thread on JFO.
"You cannot be in love with someone whom you fear." ....Penny R.Tupy Lifeworks Coaching Services

I have thought about it since she first put it in her sig line. I would have to agree with her.

I think this is probably right, too. One reason I have felt so angry about things is that my H knows about my background - or so I thought. He knows that my dad left us for OW, and since he knows her personally, he knows just how crazy and manipulative she can be. He knows also how badly she hurt me as a child, and also, as a grown-up. He knew my brother who died last year - so I felt he knew and understood the cost of infidelity.

You may have hard time believing this, but I am going to tell you anyway. I often ask my wife to explain her feelings and thoughts to me. ( that's not the part, keep reading.) She does and I think I understand and we are usually able to work things out. But here's the bad part - A month later we can have the same discussion and I have to have her tell me her feelings and thoughts all over again. I CAN'T REMEMBER , I CAN'T , I JUST CAN'T.

It sounds like I am really stupid, or something. At first I wondered if I had some kind of mental disorder or brain damage or something. Finally, I wondered if my thought processes are so different than hers that my mind won't, or can't believe she can really think those things, and so I let them go. This happened again last week. When I ask her to repeat her feelings, she looks at me like I am crazy.

So, I really can't explain what happens here, but I do it. I simply don't understand her long term and she has to go over it all again for me. Thank goodness she is willing to do it for me.

It goes two ways. When I go to run errands I determine all the things I need to get, I figure out where I need to go to get them, and do it in as few stops as I can while still getting everything. My W can't seem to grasp this concept. She will drive into town three times the same day and visit three different places that are close together - and when I ask her why she didn't get all three on the first trip she gives me a blank stare and says she doesn't know. Some days she seems to get it, but then goes back and does it again. She did it again today but I don't have time to tell the story.

The bottom line is that he really may not understand the way you feel even after you explain it. Or he may only understand for a short time. In time, he can learn to react favorably to what you are feeling even though he doesn't understand your feelings well. ( but he may ask you to repeat your feelings a lot.)

Perhaps I have never been specific enough about my feelings about my childhood hurts (background) - but has seemed to me that he is not really interested - because HE doesn't talk and share about himself after I have shared about myself, I have felt like he either doesn't get it or is not interested. He NEVER says "Yes, I can understand that - like when I...." There is never reciprocal sharing, so I don't get that he understands. If he could relate some personal experience of his own to some personal experience of mine, then I would feel that YES feeling which would make me feel understood and SAFE. Because if someone understands how important something is to you, they are not so likely to do something that would hurt you. Anyway, that's how my thinking/feeling tends to go - perhaps I just interpret his silences wrong and I just get frustrated, angry and give up.

Now, after I have said all this stuff about being different, It may be that I am wrong and there is something else going on that I don't understand. I am just a guy that comes here and tries to help, I don't know everything.

Remember that some people are outgoing, some are shy. Some play an instrument well, some never learn to play. Some communicate well, some have to learn it. Some never learn it. ( Did you know I am 47 years old and cannot play the piano? )

Learning to communicate and share with your spouse is more important than any of these. Does he know this?

I can't finish tonight. Have to go now. I will say again, don't get discouraged. There is visible progress, even if you can't measure it right now. I believe I can see it.

Pray, put all your heart into it, you will get help.

SS

<small>[ September 29, 2002, 12:46 AM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Hi Lir,
Hope your Sunday is going well so far.

I have been struggleing for the last two posts trying to give something valueable to you. I think it has finally come to me and it is pretty simple. Just a few little examples.

1. Practice.
Marriage takes practice. Communication takes practice. A professional musician should understand this really well.

2. There is no license test for marriage.
To drive a car we study, practice and test or we can't drive. To get married we pay a few dollars,
and someone says a few words and we are off and running. Which is most important? And which takes the most work to get right? Then again practice comes into it. Did you have trouble with parking when you first got your license?

3. Your writing the program that you do. Think about this, you said it sometimes takes two or three days to get it to sound right. This is a simple program. So, why would you or any of us think that communication in marriage which is much more complicated would be easy, or that it would work the first time, or that it would not need to be re-worded and thought about before it would work?

4. Prayer.
Ask for specific things, ask for specific help with H, with what to say. Ask him to soften H's heart so he will understand what you need.

Practice applies to all of these, does it not?

I could go on and on about all 4 but I have to be somewhere in 5 minutes ( and I think this is enough somehow.) so I'll see you later on.

SS

Hey, ss - you were on a roll there! Must have had something nice happen in your life!


I mean, I wish he believed in POJA. So tell me where you are on the POJA concept. At our house, I believe in it, and my w says she does but is still TRYING to ACT like she does... And it really isn't "here goes Venus." Money should be shared and major decisions should be POJA'd. So again, what does he know about it and has he agreed to do it? Well, to be honest, we haven't agreed to the POJA, but I think its time I printed it out and tried to discuss it with him. This will be my job for this week.

So I wondered if he was raised like this- to keep the money and it is just the way it is for him. I have no background here to go on. Yes, this is the big problem. He is following the example of his dad - so in his mind, he is doing what he thinks is the right thing - taking care of me so I don't have to worry about anything. Too bad he is about 100 years out of date. This is the major source of poison in our marriage and he has been told by his closest friends that he is wrong to make us live like this. But for him, this is about control - this is where he is a controlling person - controlling out of fear. I have to find a way to prise his grip loose from the gearshift, as it were. Perhaps the POJA would be a good place to start trying. Nothing else has worked yet.


I sure hope you have good sense of humor because I seem to be on one tonight. Yeah, I have a good sense of humour! I'm glad to know I'm not totally off-base here.

LIR says " So, H, lets stop and start over and see if we can do a little better this time. How do we get going like this when we love each other so much?
Yep, you see, I get too emotional to stop myself and think of something nice like this to say - I guess I just give up and feel like what's the use, I've tried so hard in the past, might as well just say something "honest" that's going to cut to the bone. Nasty, huh?

I have actually used this one - and sometimes it even works. Anything is worth a try.

[bq] At one point, he accused me of "talking in front of YS". [/bq]
Standard for him to do this when hurt.
Yes, I thought so, too - but that was the only thing he was able to retaliate with.

[bq] I said he refused to talk at all which I thought was pretty damn obstructive and I didn't have to like it. I said if he wanted things to be better between us, he had to make an effort and talking about things we both agreed would be a good thing.[/bq]
Ouch ! Ouch ! Ouch !
I wasn't actually trying to hurt him by saying this, I was just being honest and BLUNT.

LIR says " H, I love you and you love me. I don't know how we can go so far down hill sometimes, ( or however you would put it) but I am sorry for my part in it. I really am happy you paid off the car. It is good to be finished with that. I let my concern for other things sound like anger and that was bad, so can I tell you what my feelings were and why ( I think) it came out the way it did?
Funny how you see where I should, or could, stop and say "I love you", but I never do that - never say "I love you, why are we doing this?" Have just noticed this.

Slow and steady, slow and steady, slow and steady, slow and steady, slow and steady.
I am repeating....



Well, really you are doing well. Don't feel bad. I really have come right out in the middle of an angry conversation and stopped it and asked if we could start over. I just say something like "Well, since we are in love and we know it, why don't we start over and act like it."
It has worked and we have been able to recover. Sometimes I have just stopped it and suggested we start over later and that works too.

The reason I say you are doing well is that you can see the good and bad parts and are trying to adapt and change so there is more good. That's they way we all do it.

You seem to infer that the two of you have worked out the money things but that he isn't doing what you agreed ??

If so, there is no real POJA so you would need to do it again. However, I know that he doesn't know all the concepts yet and hasn't agreed to all of them so I am not sure what you have discussed and what you have not.
Really, I am just getting to feel like he is actually willing to start working on things - I think he has really been getting over OW2 for the last 3 months - I can feel a real difference in him lately - so much more engaged with me, and willing to reconcile, where, even in July, when I started this thread, he would leap at the chance to fight and then stay mad. He really is quite different now. Although I would like to attribute that to the changes I have been trying to make, I also think it is the fact that OW2 is finally off the scene - which convinces me that "no contact" is essential if recovery is to have a chance of success.

You may have hard time believing this, but I am going to tell you anyway. I often ask my wife to explain her feelings and thoughts to me. ( that's not the part, keep reading.) She does and I think I understand and we are usually able to work things out. But here's the bad part - A month later we can have the same discussion and I have to have her tell me her feelings and thoughts all over again. I CAN'T REMEMBER , I CAN'T , I JUST CAN'T.

It sounds like I am really stupid, or something. At first I wondered if I had some kind of mental disorder or brain damage or something. Finally, I wondered if my thought processes are so different than hers that my mind won't, or can't believe she can really think those things, and so I let them go. This happened again last week. When I ask her to repeat her feelings, she looks at me like I am crazy.

So, I really can't explain what happens here, but I do it. I simply don't understand her long term and she has to go over it all again for me. Thank goodness she is willing to do it for me.
I appreciate this - because he does do that - so that's pretty normal Mars behaviour? It always seems to me that men process what is immediate - they are good at facing immediate challenges. While we women store up "material" on someone long-term - so we can understand them better.

The bottom line is that he really may not understand the way you feel even after you explain it. Or he may only understand for a short time. In time, he can learn to react favorably to what you are feeling even though he doesn't understand your feelings well. ( but he may ask you to repeat your feelings a lot.) OK!

Now, after I have said all this stuff about being different, It may be that I am wrong and there is something else going on that I don't understand. I am just a guy that comes here and tries to help, I don't know everything.Yes, I know that - but I do find what you say helpful - I'm sure he has his own stuff going on, which makes him an individual - not just a generic Martian - but it helps to have a basic instruction manual, nevertheless!

I think he would understand the idea about having to practice - that's what he does all day!LOL

Well, gotta go -

Sunny days here so far, so we are lapping them up!

LIR

<small>[ September 30, 2002, 02:27 PM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

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<small>[ September 30, 2002, 02:25 PM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>