Hi LIR,

I failed to acknowledge your hope that I had a good B-day. It was wonderful, I had all but one of my children there for a "favorite" dinner that W prepared. Enjoyed talking to all my family. Mother r and Father also came and wished me well. With all the bad, there is much good in this world.

On having to repeat things to him and him acting like he STILL doesn't understand.
- so that's pretty normal Mars behavior?
I don't know if it applies to all men. I never used to know I did it. Once I started studying on MB many things I do/ have done began to be understandable to me. I have done this for years, and not just with my W. Perhaps psychologists have terms for it and know how to get someone over it. (another good reason for MC.) I don't think that all men have this problem. It appears to be like selective memory. We forget things that we don't understand very well. I don't have the words to explain it. I am sure my W thought I just didn't care. Now my actions in all areas of our M show her that I do care, so she believes me that this is just something I can't control with my conscious mind.

Lets expand on this. Think for a minute about how different we all are. I could perhaps learn to play Football, or soccer as we yanks call it. However I have never had much coordination, and am pretty slow and would probably never get really good at it. Some are "gifted" and with further training become "superstars." Same with music. Same with everything else in life. And that brings us to Communication. For some, it is a natural talent, for some a learned skill. I don't know if you have read the link I put in an earlier post. If not, I recommend that you do so now. Most of us do not communicate nearly as well as we could do. Right now you want to improve those skills, would do almost anything for instant success, and yet, find you still come up short.

We have discussed why H has problems communicating with you and not others. ( also why you have trouble with him) I left out one part of it. We have an enemy who is very good at what he does. There is someone actively trying to destroy your marriage. Many of those doubts and fears you both have are not coming from your own minds. Your buttons are being pushed by an outside force and you and H are both affected by it. This is something else you need to keep in the back of your mind and bring it out and think about it when you know you ought to stop but you keep going on anyway. It is difficult to deal with but it can be learned ( practice) like everything else. You can learn to recognize external negative thoughts and replace them with positive ones of your own.

Re-reading this material, going over and over it helps us, it is part of the "practice. " It helps us form good habits of communication in our marriage. That is one reason I come here, after all, teaching helps us remember much better than hearing does. ( and I notice you are doing some good work of your own, please keep on. )

It always seems to me that men process what is immediate - they are good at facing immediate challenges. While we women store up "material" on someone long-term - so we can understand them better.
I think on the whole that this is true. There are many other things I forget that my W remembers - and I am much better than she is at dealing with emergencies that require action "right now."

This is enough right now. I will continue later about the "big picture"

BTW, I found this from a few days ago, and it has not been addressed.
We have had another conversation about mobiles, but I will have to go into that tomorrow.
Are you trying to hide something here? Just kidding, what happened?

SS

The "Big Picture" is something you already understand, so let me just review and then bring out one or two points for emphasis.

I'm going to paraphrase heavily here, both from MB, and from Scripture.

1. We can't change others, we can only change ourselves and hope they come along too.

2. People tend to do more for us if we are nice to them, and we should treat them like we want them to treat us.

3. Since we can't change our spouse, we have do make a choice. If we want, we can leave. If we stay, we need to remember one and two above and realize that our spouse may never be exactly what we want, ( but I agree that things can be better than they are. )

4. We can't change someone else, but if we love them, and they love us, we can make deals with them, and they can change themselves. This is POJA, but more. It is trying to become a better person than we are now. It is examining ourselves as we are, compared to what we should be, and resolving to become what we should be. And in marriage, the best is if it is done together ( by POJA)

I know this is a pretty simplified version, but for our discussion today we'll leave it like it is.

Now lets examine ourselves in light of these things.
I think it better if I examine me, and let you look at you.
For years, I tried to change my wife. You see, I don't think I had a bad temper when I married. I think over time it got worse and worse as I tried to change her without result. She has her own issues, some in the past, some in present. I broke rules one and two and it didn't work. She resented it, and would sometimes change for a short time and then fall back into old patterns.

Probably 5 to 7 years ago, I realized it wasn't going to work. ( remember, this year is 25 for us.) It was her birthday and I took her out on a camping trip. ( no money, and where we live, camping is cheap.) I thought that I would do everything for her and make sure she had a good time. We arrived at a "secret spot" where we were the only ones - probably within 15 miles. I set up camp, cooked, waited on her hand and foot, while she read a book.. We were ........well, not distant, but not close. We had OK times together, but not great times. We were both frustrated with the other, she because I tried to change her and I was angry and disrespectful. Me because I didn't like some of the way she did things, she was distant, and she wouldn't change. We ate, slept, talked, came home. I figured it had done nothing, was depressed. About a week later she remarked that she had actually enjoyed the trip and hoped we could do it again. I started to examine what was different.

a. I didn't LB the whole trip.
b. I let her rest, and treated her like the beautiful person that she is.

I made a choice to try and find out how to make this stay long term.
Our church has a marriage and family relations class. I took it. I took it again with my wife, then I took it again by myself. ( I am in it for the 4th time starting in Sept. of this year.) I started to study what God said about marriage and found that I was trying to change the wrong person, so I started on me.

So, for me it has been a long journey. I found MB late January of this year and learned specific ways to do what I wanted to do. No LB's and meet her needs. The scriptures taught me what to do, MB taught me how to do it. I changed me, not her, and she is responding.

I don't know if she will change everything. I don't care so much any more. She is not the enemy any longer ( she was only that on bad days, but I felt that sometimes.) She is my helpmeet, my partner, my queen. You know, she doesn't always treat me just right, but darned if I didn't figure out that I am not "Mr. Perfect" either. We can talk now, she trusts me. We work on things. I find that I could talk about some of those things that used to bother me so much, but I haven't. I find I tend to focus on happy stuff, I try to make her laugh. We talk about the kids, our siblings, work, and God. We talk about my friends on MB. We worked out finances and now we have POJA on that almost always.

Now, where are YOU? Where do YOU want to be?

If he doesn't start to give you the mobile, and POJA finances, are you going to leave him?

Can you live with a less then perfect H?

If so, how much less than perfect can you live with? ( not a fair question, is it?)

Have you set goals for your own improvement? Are you reaching them?

Have you ever asked yourself " If I lived in Heaven, what would my neighbors be like? Are you like that?

I have trouble almost every day being what I want to be. It is much harder to change than to speak of change. Don't feel like the Lone Ranger, you are not in this by yourself.

Now, after all that, I don't' mean to say that you shouldn't work with him on these things. Keep picking it up and turning it round and looking at all sides. You will make it work, we will help and I believe H will too.

Here is a saying for you today, I found it on a site a week or ago so for Cali. I think it applies so much to all of us here.

Anyone who imagines that bliss is normal in life is going to waste a lot of time running around shouting that he's been robbed. The fact is that most putts don't drop, most beef is tough, most children grow up to be just people, most successful marriages require a high degree of mutual toleration, and most jobs are more often dull than otherwise. Life is like an old-time rail journey - delays, sidetracks, smoke, dust, cinders, and jolts, interspersed only occasionally with beautiful vistas and thrilling bursts of speed. The trick is to thank God for letting you have the ride. Gordon B. Hinckley

Hope this helps a little.

SS

I had one more thought ( I think slowly) Don't think this puts you in a holding pattern, and you won't get anywhere. It really does work, I promise. In fact it is the only thing that does work. I have been working on it for 25 years and I know. Promise.

<small>[ October 01, 2002, 05:49 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

ss - thanks for keeping up with me - I'm having trouble finding free time alone, either at home or at work when I can post, which is why my posts are not as well-thought out as I would like to be.

I am at work now, so am grabbing a minute - yes, there are further developments on the mobile phone front, and I also approached him yesterday about getting my name on his credit cards. It was a peculiar conversation which I will post when I have more time, but the good news is that he didn't get angry. However, he did not agree either, so now we have "talked" round the mobile phone issue, the "joint finances" issue, and now the credit card issue, but there is still no change on the last two issues.

I really want to go in depth to these issues, but will have to find the time in the next few days - possibly not until Friday night.

Had a good counselling appointment last night - I discuss all these things with my counselor as well as on the forum.

She helps get me get a clearer picture of reality and helps talk me through my feelings, so that I don't get "stuck" with them.

What is clear is that my H has the balance of power in our R, which he has claimed since the beginning of our M, and which he seems to have a hard time letting go of. He also has an issue with "secrecy or secretiveness". Which is also a way of keeping power. I want to ask my H why he needs to have power over me in our R - not so blunt, but really, this is not healthy -s o why does he need to do this?

About POJA - I have been a little sneaky here. When I said to him "I thought we had agreed we should make these joint decisions together." At no time did he agree to make these decisions together. But in a good marriage we make decisions together and I think deep down he knows this. So since he has made moves which let me believe he wants to work on our marriage, I am going to assume that he wants this also. If I say it in this way, then he has to argue with me outright that he never agreed to this. If he does argue that he never agreed to take decisions together, then he will be arguing against one of the cardinal rules of good marriage. So its kind of sneaky, and its not fully the POJA, but I am working up to that. Maybe my negotiating skills are getting better.

Gotta go - got customers in the library!

see ya

LIR

Hi LIR,
I want to tell you one more story and then I will leave you be for a while. I will tell it at the end.

ss - thanks for keeping up with me - I'm having trouble finding free time alone, either at home or at work when I can post, which is why my posts are not as well-thought out as I would like to be .I am at work now, so am grabbing a minute

This thread is your thread and you should only come when you can come. Family, friends, and work are more important and should be what you worry about first. I usually reply at work ( right now it is 5:30 am for me, and I am at home, can't sleep - will explain in story.) Anyway, I usually reply at work while I am supposed to be eating lunch so It is easier for me than for some. Don't ever take time to come here when you ought to be taking care of your family.

- yes, there are further developments on the mobile phone front, and I also approached him yesterday about getting my name on his credit cards. It was a peculiar conversation which I will post when I have more time, but the good news is that he didn't get angry.
I am glad he did not get angry.

However, he did not agree either, so now we have "talked" round the mobile phone issue, the "joint finances" issue, and now the credit card issue, but there is still no change on the last two issues. I really want to go in depth to these issues, but will have to find the time in the next few days - possibly not until Friday night.
I think you are doing well to speak with him about these things. Glad you are able to do it now and that he at least listens.

Had a good counseling appointment last night - I discuss all these things with my counselor as well as on the forum. She helps get me get a clearer picture of reality and helps talk me through my feelings, so that I don't get "stuck" with them. What is clear is that my H has the balance of power in our R, which he has claimed since the beginning of our M, and which he seems to have a hard time letting go of. He also has an issue with "secrecy or secretiveness". Which is also a way of keeping power. I want to ask my H why he needs to have power over me in our R - not so blunt, but really, this is not healthy -s o why does he need to do this?

Interesting statement. And he does appear to be trying to keep the power. From what you have said before, this is the norm for him, that is, he is used to it and thinks it is supposed to be that way. If this is the case, it will be hard for him to give it up.

About POJA - I have been a little sneaky here. When I said to him "I thought we had agreed we should make these joint decisions together." At no time did he agree to make these decisions together. But in a good marriage we make decisions together and I think deep down he knows this. So since he has made moves which let me believe he wants to work on our marriage, I am going to assume that he wants this also. If I say it in this way, then he has to argue with me outright that he never agreed to this. If he does argue that he never agreed to take decisions together, then he will be arguing against one of the cardinal rules of good marriage. So its kind of sneaky, and its not fully the POJA, but I am working up to that. Maybe my negotiating skills are getting better.
An you called me wise - LOL. Sounds like you know what you are doing. I think you are on the right track.

Well, here's my story.
My wife left me last night.
So, I will tell you about it.
First, she just left for about an hour or so, because she was mad. Don't get so excited. It happened like this.
I was in the basement and heard my 16 year old son yelling at his mother. I started upstairs to see what was going on. (Some background is needed, so let me wander from the story for a bit.) W has a hard time being firm with the children. We will have a problem with one of them and POJA a solution, and then they will apply pressure on her and she will let them do what they want. Son realizes this, and has learned to apply pressure on her, which is what he was doing last night.

So I heard him yelling " It's all about you, YOU, YOU, YOU, always about YOU. I hit the top of the stairs and grabbed him by the arm and said. " leave your mother alone, it sounds like it is about YOU and you are pretty selfish. ( so, right away I start off with a disrespectful judgment, just like he is doing. I do much better if I can plan the conversation in advance and calm myself before I start.) He said " you don't even know what is going on, so why are you even in this conversation." And I said, " I can hear you yelling at your mother and I won't let you get away with it, and you know why I am in this conversation." We went back and forth a few times and he continued to say I was butting in where I was not wanted, and I continued to say he had no right to treat his mother badly. He got shoes on and went out the front door. I called him back and said he should come home.

Now, this is where I lost it. W and I have discussed this a few times this week, how she sometimes lets them do things when we have agreed that they cannot. So, I was angry at son, and after he walked out, I turned to W and said " You bring this on yourself, if you wouldn't cave in, they wouldn't pressure you all the time. I am tired of being in the middle of problems you create for yourself." So, Here I am giving all this advice about how to speak to your spouse, and I did it all wrong. She needed support, and love and someone to stand by her. Well, I did support her in front of son, but then I LB'd big time. Even if I had a valid point ( and I believe I did.) It was the wrong time, and the wrong thing to say, and the wrong way to say it. She walked out, got in the car and left. Came back about an hour later and went to bed without a word. I feel so bad that I woke up before 5:00 Am and can't go back to sleep. Now I have to do damage control, and it is worse than doing it right the first time. I lecture son about treating his mother badly, and then I do it.
Well, there is a lesson about how not to do it. I need to talk to wife and apologize, and I need to speak to her about my underlying resentment another time when we are both in a good mood. ( I need to be honest with her about my feelings in a nice way.)

Son walked around the house and came in the back door and went to bed. Mostly the outcome was good but I didn't handle it very well. I get ANGRY when they yell at their mom. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> No excuse, is it.

I'll leave you alone for a day or two, I don't want you to feel pressure to reply.
Remember SS, time and patience, Practice, Practice, pratcice.

SS

<small>[ October 02, 2002, 07:40 AM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

ss-
When I logged on I was crying, because we have had a bad row, but your post stopped me short - see, none of us are perfect - all you can do is try.

First off, I think you did the right thing by jumping in even before you knew what was happening and defending your wife - not allowing your son to treat her that way. That is a given. You should never allow your sons to speak to their mother disrespectfully, no matter what the reason. I have two sons, who are 6 and 9, and my sister has a 19-yr old son, who has had a few of those kinds of problems this year himself.

It sounds like once you got mad and in the heat of battle, you got wound up and forgot "the rules" about disrespectful judgements (with son), and also with wife. With wife it is a little different, because you have a recurring underlying agreement with her which she keeps breaking, therefore you have a lot of unspoken resentment. In the heat of battle, that unspoken resentment bubbles to the surface and spits out - like boiling water. Ouch!

So it might be helpful, when you do talk to her to apologize for yelling at her and blaming her, and then try to explain why it came out that way. That you both agreed that what was best for your son was to be firm with him TOGETHER. And that it is not good for son to be able to "divide and conquer" to get what he wants. You know she loves your son, as you do, and as a mother, you want him to be happy, and it is in her nature to give - which is why she may find it difficult to say no to him. And perhaps it is that she agrees to certain things she is not entirely convinced of - but only agrees with you to make you happy, or to not be in conflict with you, then when son asks her if he can have $ or the car, she says "Oh, go on then." (I don't know, I'm just guessing here). If that's the case, then you need to make it more "safe" for her to disagree with you and let her know that you will listen while she tries (I said tries) to explain why she thinks things should be different. But your goal is to be united as parents for the good of your son.

Does this sound good? I am usually able to soften up to my H when he comes to me and apologizes - I know he has a hard time in the heat of battle, and I forgive him, as long as he recognizes his mistakes. I despair when he doesn't.

I have to remind myself of this because right now I am REAL UPSET! Before I came up to the computer, I smashed one of our best mugs in the kitchen - better than throwing it at him! Made just the right sound, too!

The upshot of it is that I tried to talk to him about "joint finances" again, and he is not responsive. His take is that he is self-employed without a guaranteed income, therefore, he "saves" up his money in his own bank account in order to pay off the big bills and taxes that he knows are coming due and payable. He said so many insulting things that I couldn't put them all down in order. Things like "...we never have enough, so someone has to squirrel something away so that everyone doesn't go and spend it like water in the optimistic belief that there is going to be enough at the end of the month to pay for everything." I kept saying "who is everyone? we are just talking about you and me here. Are you talking about you or are you talking about me?"

I am at the point of quitting. I just do NOT see why I had to get stuck with this guy. We didn't discuss finances before we got married and it was only after we were married that it became clear that he was going to stay in control of all of "his" money. Every time I have questioned this, he has said "That's just the way I am, and that's just the way it is going to be." You don't like it? Lump it.

So this time I said things like "Do you really think that is healthy in a marriage - that you just say that's the way it is and I just have to accept it? " I said "If that's the way it is, then you are just going to have to live with an unhappy wife."

He also made it clear that he is not interested in any marriage counselling or in going back to his own counselor because he doesn't want to spend the money on that. He is not really interested in reading any books, watching any videos, or looking at Marriage Builders either.

He said he doesn't like being "nailed" about things. I kept saying "I'm not interested in "nailing" you. I am your wife and these are things we ought to be able to talk about without getting into a fight. Now you are yelling at me. (He got mad and stayed mad from the start of this conversation).

I also brought up the cash he keeps in his drawer. I asked him how much he had and he said "not a lot". He has 350.00. He said he keeps this because "someone" always expects there to be money for things.

You know what? I am going to take that money and put it into our savings account and see how he likes me doing things without his agreement. Then he'll get to see how much he really thinks that's "his" money.

I'm off - hope I don't come back with two black eyes.

Hope you and your wife patch things up. Really! Raising kids is the hardest thing in the world. Even harder than staying married. Who ever said life would be fun?

LIR

He also made it clear that he is not interested in any marriage counselling or in going back to his own counselor because he doesn't want to spend the money on that. He is not really interested in reading any books, watching any videos, or looking at Marriage Builders either.
They never are when in the middle of an arguement.

He said he doesn't like being "nailed" about things. I kept saying "I'm not interested in "nailing" you. I am your wife and these are things we ought to be able to talk about without getting into a fight. Now you are yelling at me. (He got mad and stayed mad from the start of this conversation).
He is giving you valueable information. He is telling you what he feels like. Really, it does not matter what is actually happening, but what you both feel is happening.You are right, but (as you already know,) when in the middle of a heated argurment, we are not often willing to look at another point of view, but are only defending our own. At least he is telling you how he feels when you are speaking to him.

I also brought up the cash he keeps in his drawer. I asked him how much he had and he said "not a lot". He has 350.00. He said he keeps this because "someone" always expects there to be money for things. You know what? I am going to take that money and put it into our savings account and see how he likes me doing things without his agreement. Then he'll get to see how much he really thinks that's "his" money.

Perhaps a better way ( since he wants control) woluld be to give it all to him. Let him buy the food, pay the bills, do everything. Sounds like you are saying " you want a fight, well, I'll fight then." You don't have to do it with malice, just say you are tired of having to pay things without access to funds, it is taking to much out of you, and you are turning it over to him. Give him background, tell him that it it wasn't like that for you and you are not used to it, and worn out from trying to cope with it. Explain where you are comming from and give it back to him to worry about.

I'm off - hope I don't come back with two black eyes.
I wish I could have talked to you before you went off. Honestly, sometimes I think you are as bad as I am. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Hope you and your wife patch things up. Really! Raising kids is the hardest thing in the world. Even harder than staying married. Who ever said life would be fun?
We patched up already this morning. ( mostly) I laid down by her (after I posted) and apoligized. I rubbed her back for 10 or 15 minutes and apoligized again. She turned over and hugged me and said she was OK. We'll talk about it again tonight and see if we can figure out how to help each other more so it doesn't happen again. These things used to slowly separate us, now they are slowly bringing us together. Thanks for the help on this, I will take it in mind, see if I can improve here.

One of the talks we have had is about the enemy. We have identified that sometimes there was no reason for us to argue and we can almost see an outside force trying to split us up.

LIR,
I still think you would be better to go at this more slowly and build up the comfort level of the communication you have. Most of what H said is normal things our spouses say when we argue. He has been showing you that he is willing to do some of what you need, even if it is really slow, and even if he denies he will.

SS

<small>[ October 02, 2002, 09:41 AM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

It's too late, ss -

He got physical this time.

Yes, I took the money to the bank. Then I went shopping. When I got back, I went upstairs to see how he was, and I offered him a piece of cake. He said "What did you do with the money?" I said, "I put it in our savings account, where it belongs." "Did you ask my permission?" "Do I have to?" "Do I have to ask you permission to work?" "That's not the point." "So now I have to pay tax on that money - that was the money my students have paid me in cash." "Why didn't you tell me - why didn't you share that with me?" "Why didn't you ask?" "I have asked, and that is just the problem - you don't share and you don't tell and you are don't think you have to." "Get out," "No, I'm not getting out - I only have one thing to say - in April I asked you to leave, and the only reason why we stayed together was because you got yourself into counseling (disgusted look here from him), but now you are not in counselling and you have told me you are not interested in going to any marriage counselling and all the problems still remain to be talked about." "You are horrible. Get out." "I'm not horrible." "Yes, you are, you are horrible and disgusting, and you don't have to worry - I'm leaving." "You don't have to leave - you can go to counselling. But if you don't go to counselling, you don't have to leave, because I will. I have had enough - 17 years of your control, your secretiveniss, your affairs with X, Y, and before them, with Z (the older woman), which you lied about from the beginning." "Now that is really spiteful and truly horrible. You are horrible." "I'm not horrible I am telling you the truth - that has poisoned our lives from the beginning and I have wasted 17 years of my life with you." (I'm out the door and downstairs) - YS came upstairs and is crying watching us, so I'm trying to stop, but we are both too involved.
I go into YS, who is crying in his room. I take him downstairs to talk to him. H is upstairs. I decide it is better to get away somewhere calmer, so I decide to take him to a friend's house. We are in the car, and H comes out, opens the door and unbuckles seatbelt, takes YS out of car. First he had asked me where I was going - I told him exactly where I was going - to whose house. He said, "This isn't necessary," and took YS out of the car and led him back in.

Then he went in the kitchen. I followed him into the kitchen. I said "this doesn't have to happen." and he said "no - it's happening in front of YS because of you - you started it in front of him (this is not true - I started upstairs behind two closed doors, and he is the one whose temper blew, then I blew - but yes, I started when YS was in the house, because I feel so hopeless without any prospect of MC).
He said "my counselor says you should not be doing this" - I said "fine, and what does she say that you should not be doing?" - "You are horrible - get out - get out -" and he comes at me and starts manhandleing me out the kitchen door and into the yard. (I'm crying now - I can't help it - I can't stand this anymore - its all ok as long as I never try to change anything and as long as he always gets what he wants). So I fought back - I held on to him and resisted being shoved out the door - he pushed and shoved and wrestled with me -until I was down on the floor - I hit out at him - he said "You are horrible," - then he stopped. I sat on the floor and said "You are abusive - this is abusive." Before I had said "you should look up "abusive relationships" on the web - you fit the description in so many ways". YS came in and saw me sitting on the floor. "What's happening?" H took him out, then came back to me. "You shouldn't bring these things up when he is in the house."
"This shouldn't be happening at all." I said.
"This is why we need marriage counselling."
He said, "You have been horrible to me for two days." (Because yesterday I asked if I could be on his credit card).
He said "The only thing you care about is money". I said "If that were true I wouldn't have married you."

So - can it get any worse?
H has gone to see OS - I don't know what to do - I am supposed to go out tonight but now I don't want to. I am going to talk to my neighbor.

I hear what you are saying about an outside force. I also believe this. But one lets oneself be overcome by that - yes, I shouldn't have said a lot of what I said - but in my view, it had to be said. It's the truth. The Holy Spirit does not deal in lies. I was brutal - maybe he's right - maybe I am horrible - but so is he. I can't imagine much worse. All this proves to me is that he has not changed - he still has exactly the same problems - he is not interested in getting any help, and no amount of good work on my part is going to make any difference when push comes to shove - he is still determined to have his way, and he is determined to hate me.

I only want and only ever wanted to be loved. I married a man I loved and I had no idea he would be this way when I married him. He lied to me about his prior relationships and he has been secretive and punitive the whole of our married life? How do the good times balance that out?

I am glad you made up with your wife - that's because you love and respect your wife - you have let God into your heart so that you can admit your faults like any human being, and she loves you, too. I just don't believe that my H really loves me or he wouldn't treat me like this.

LIR

Oh LIR,
What a hurt this is to you. I don't do hugs very well, but I care. Please don't give up hope. I am thinking about this and will reply but it will probably be long. Please protect yourself, and don't go after him while angry. If you do want to to leave, tell him flat out that you need time to think and that you will only be gone for a few hours and that you will return. I will explain later.

Please be OK.

SS

Well LIR, I'm just going to say what I think. Remember ,I don't know everything.

It's too late, ss -He got physical this time.
It's to late for today, but it's not too late. At least I don't think it is.

Yes, I took the money to the bank. Then I went shopping. When I got back, I went upstairs to see how he was, and I offered him a piece of cake. He said "What did you do with the money?" I said, "I put it in our savings account, where it belongs." "Did you ask my permission?" "Do I have to?" "Do I have to ask you permission to work?" "That's not the point." "So now I have to pay tax on that money - that was the money my students have paid me in cash." "Why didn't you tell me - why didn't you share that with me?" "Why didn't you ask?" "I have asked, and that is just the problem - you don't share and you don't tell and you are don't think you have to." "Get out," "No, I'm not getting out - I only have one thing to say - in April I asked you to leave, and the only reason why we stayed together was because you got yourself into counseling (disgusted look here from him), but now you are not in counseling and you have told me you are not interested in going to any marriage counseling and all the problems still remain to be talked about."
Nothing new or really bad in here, just stuff we all do and say when we are angry. I suspect that 95% of the people on MB have had this kind of discussion about something or other.


"You are horrible. Get out." "I'm not horrible." "Yes, you are, you are horrible and disgusting, and you don't have to worry - I'm leaving." "You don't have to leave - you can go to counseling. But if you don't go to counseling, you don't have to leave, because I will. I have had enough - 17 years of your control, your secretiveness, your affairs with X, Y, and before them, with Z (the older woman), which you lied about from the beginning." "Now that is really spiteful and truly horrible. You are horrible." "I'm not horrible I am telling you the truth - that has poisoned our lives from the beginning and I have wasted 17 years of my life with you." (I'm out the door and downstairs)
Here are two people that are really hurt, saying things in a way that will make them sorry later on. Both believe what they are saying. Both will later come to understand that the same ideas could have been presented with perhaps more loving words.

- YS came upstairs and is crying watching us, so I'm trying to stop, but we are both too involved go into YS, who is crying in his room. I take him downstairs to talk to him. H is upstairs. I decide it is better to get away somewhere calmer, so I decide to take him to a friend's house. We are in the car, and H comes out, opens the door and unbuckles seatbelt, takes YS out of car. First he had asked me where I was going - I told him exactly where I was going - to whose house.
I have been there, on the same side as your H. I am not proud of it.

He said, "This isn't necessary," and took YS out of the car and led him back in. Then he went in the kitchen. I followed him into the kitchen. I said "this doesn't have to happen." and he said "no - it's happening in front of YS because of you - you started it in front of him (this is not true - I started upstairs behind two closed doors, and he is the one whose temper blew, then I blew - but yes, I started when YS was in the house, because I feel so hopeless without any prospect of MC)
I have also tried to get my W to come back in. I was to angry to ask her to come, and do it nicely. But I really didn't want her to leave. I had all kinds of thoughts, such as: What if she gets hurt, because she is angry? What if this is the beginning of the end? If I get her to stay, maybe we can make this work. The comment about YS is his standard defensive comment. He says it often - it is comfortable for him to use.

He said "my counselor says you should not be doing this" - I said "fine, and what does she say that you should not be doing?" This ( what you said) would work if you both were not so upset. It is a valid point. I have a hard time knowing what to say here. On the one hand, both of you are hurting so badly and it looks like the end of the world. On the other, i see so much hope and I see that you love each other.

He is having his world challenged. In his world he is always right. You are submissive and meek and do what he tells you. Things are a certain way, and they never change.

In your world, Marriage is a partnership and everything done together. People don't have A's and when it is pointed out to them that there is a better way, they embrace it and are thankful to learn it. You have not been able to live in your word and it is like being in intensive care, you want to rip off all the artificial life support and breath and run free, but you don't want to die. So, today you ripped it off and wonder what will happen. ( I know I can't do justice to your feelings, but I am trying to show I at least partly understand.)

"You are horrible - get out - get out -" and he comes at me and starts manhandling me out the kitchen door and into the yard. (I'm crying now - I can't help it
I have been crying too, for much of this. We come here and wish we could make it better but we can't really.
- I can't stand this anymore - its all OK as long as I never try to change anything and as long as he always gets what he wants). So I fought back - I held on to him and resisted being shoved out the door - he pushed and shoved and wrestled with me -until I was down on the floor - I hit out at him - he said "You are horrible," - then he stopped. I sat on the floor and said "You are abusive - this is abusive." Before I had said "you should look up "abusive relationships" on the web - you fit the description in so many ways". YS came in and saw me sitting on the floor. "What's happening?" H took him out, then came back to me. "You shouldn't bring these things up when he is in the house.""This shouldn't be happening at all."
When we are in the heat of battle, we only see one side, ours. We are fighting for our perspective, our point of view, our sanity. I don't fault you. I believe I understand why this happened. You have lived with so much for so long that you finally reached the end of what you could deal with. The big question is what are you going to do now.

I said ."This is why we need marriage counseling. "He said, "You have been horrible to me for two days." (Because yesterday I asked if I could be on his credit card). He said "The only thing you care about is money". I said "If that were true I wouldn't have married you."
You are right, this is why. And he is lashing out, trying to hurt you. You seem pretty rational here - remember I can't hear you, ( were you yelling?) but it sounds like an OK thing to say.

So - can it get any worse? Yes it could have been much worse. I have seen worse on MB many times. Please don't take this wrong, but I am more concerned with " can it be made better?"

H has gone to see OS - I don't know what to do - I am supposed to go out tonight but now I don't want to. I am going to talk to my neighbor. Hope neighbor helps. At this point there is a lot you can do to make this come out like you want. I will explain later.

I hear what you are saying about an outside force. I also believe this. But one lets oneself be overcome by that - yes, I shouldn't have said a lot of what I said - but in my view, it had to be said. It's the truth. The Holy Spirit does not deal in lies. I was brutal
No, the Holy Spirit does not deal in lies. I know that you believe that you have tried the other ways and this was the only hope, or you would not have done it this way. You are there, and had to make the call. You had to live with the prior problems, you have to live with the results. Remember that there is more than one way to tell the truth.

- maybe he's right - maybe I am horrible - but so is he. I can't imagine much worse.
1. YOU ARE NOT HORRIBLE. Look, lets wait a while to talk about any more.
2. PERHAPS THERE IS ANOTHER THING TO CONSIDER HERE. I will do it later.
3. I can imagine worse, but you don't want to hear about it. I have seen much worse. After all this, I believe there is still hope.

I probably just should have said I was sorry and waited a few days. I hope you can process this whenever you read it. I'll save the last little bit for later.

No, I better not. I hope you can take this without wondering if I am crazy.

First, do you want to save it still? If yes, Keep reading. If no. Stop.

If yes, you need to do damage control. You both will have ill effects for a day or two, but what you do and say when you see him again could make a big difference in how it goes.

I recommend something like this.
H, I am sorry things ended up like they did. I have loved you and you have loved me but I just can't live with things the way they are. I want our children to have both their parents. I want to go to sleep next to you, wake up next to you. ( insert things that are important to you.) I want to make it work, and think we can with MC. I don't want this to ever happen again, will you go to MC with me.

If he makes any kind of rude comment, or says no, say something like this.

That way leads right back to our arguement. I won't go there again. Please go with me to MC and lets work this out. Please, I love you and want this to work. Please?

I don't know what to say about tonight. By the time you get this, it may be too late. I am praying for you and your M. I hope there is something of value in all this, I hope you are OK.

I commented on what to say if you leave to think or for any other reason. The few times my W wanted to leave, all kinds of HUGE IRRATIONAL FEARS went through my mind. If you tell him exactly what you are doing and why, it will keep him from doing something rash.

Please come back and tell me how you are.

SS

ss - I'm OK - thank you SO much for taking the time to write - I need damage control now, but I am not in any shape to do it.

H has gone out again to watch OS perform. I think H is calming down - still angry - but he came in the kitchen and asked if I needed help with dinner, and did the dishes. He has tried to make some attempts at conversation, but i am not interested in talking to him - I am still angry - so I can't talk with him at all right now - I am not looking at him and I am not interested in having anything to do with him. I can't say I'm sorry right now, even if I am, because I am still too mad.

I am sorrowing inside.

I don't think its too late, but this is going to take a while. I think I will say that this proves that we need marriage counselling and that IC for both of us has not helped us with our relationship.

I just am not in any shape to be able to talk right now - not to him - I can talk to anyone else, but not to him. Big parts of me just want to leave, and if I had the money I would go.

I will try to post tomorrow.

Thank you for being there. Please tell your wife how much I appreciate her supporting you helping people here. I hope things are better with your son - boys can be tough when they are teenagers.

LIR

<small>[ October 02, 2002, 08:42 PM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

LIR,

One of the things I have learned, and that I am able to do now, is never do anything drastic in the heat of the moment. Like leaving. Please don't. Please don't think about if for a few days yet.

I still believe H loves you. I don't think he would have come back in and tried to help just because he is a nice guy. I wish I was smart enough to get some things across, but I can't all the time in my own M either, so I will have to think some more.

Please remember these things for the next few days.

1. He will process this differently than you. If he wants to make it better, he will do things like offer to help, and want to talk.

2. He doesn't know how bad you are hurt. If you don't want to talk, tell him plain out, say
"H, I can't talk yet, but when I have recovered a little more, I will. You already know that we are different about some things, please wait until I am ready and don't take it as a sign that I am rejecting you. " or something like that.

3. You don't have to say you are sorry about what you said. You are really sorry that he didn't get it. You are sorry about the feelings of anger you have. Just say you are sorry about the way it turned out. That is the truth. Is it not????

It will have the same effect.

I want to help you understand that he needs something. His coming in and trying to talk and help is a peace offering. He needs something back besides the cold shoulder. Fight what you feel, and at least tell him you will talk later. I am telling you because I know what I would need to keep from getting angry again, and think that will do it. Please find some way to put him off nicely. Please.

So this proves you need MC. Well, I always said you did.

I used to be a repair-man. I always take the view of " what do I have to do to fix this."

So, if I hooked up the wires wrong and blew up the motor, I wouldn't say " Darn, I'm an idiot, and now it's ruined and I can't fix it." I would say, " OK, that's in the past, what do I need to do now to make this darn thing run." And I would figure it out, and do it.

Take the time you need, and then figure it out, and do it. I believe it can be saved.

I remember what Christ said when he was put up on the Cross. Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.

I don't think he is doing this on purpose to make your life He$$. I think he needs to learn some things. Perhaps this can be the catalyst to permit the learning.

I was going to have my W post to you, but she isn't feeling well and couldn't type. I thought she could tell you some of her feelings when things were the worst, and how she got through it. I will tell you that she has said that she prayed more than once to know if she should leave, and always got the answer to stay. Perhaps you could pray.

Son is fine, he and I don't do this often, but we have an understanding that we love each other and we can get over it. I do lots of things with him, and he knows I care.

SS

I am sorrowing inside for you also. I don't communicate those feelings very well. I often don't know what to say, and as I said, I am a repair person, I fix things.

I am afraid If I was in a war and came across someone wounded, I might say " Well, were sorry, but we can't help you, the medics will be along, and in the mean time, we have to go and fight and keep you from getting your head blown off. Just be glad you're not dead like that guy over there.

I worry that I might seem cold sometimes, I really do care.

SS

ss - I know you care. Your wife has a good husband. I know my husband could be a good husband, too, if he would just make the effort it takes to try to learn something different. I would support him all the way if he would just try. I love him and want us to work out, but I am still too angry to talk - all I can hear is this voice in my head saying "he's horrible, horrible, horrible and you shouldn't have to be treated like this" - I can't see straight or think straight right now, I just can't cope, except on my own. I do not have the strength to deal with him right now. I am tired of being abused and insulted. I am only here because I loved him - sometimes I think I am only here because I was the only one stupid enough to take the bait, bite, and now I'm hooked.

I slept in the guest room last night - he came to our bed and I couldn't sleep - I had a splitting headache and finally had to get up and move. But I took him a cup of tea this morning. And he lifted his head and said "There's a book here that might be of help to you on your program notes." I took it and said thank you but I am MAD. And I DON'T want to talk to him. Downstairs, he said "Doesn't anyone want to know how OS was last night?" Aggressive - go on - ask me! - So I said, "Of course, how was he?" "Fine"
Nothing more coming from me. "Oh, forget it," he muttered. He's angry because I won't be "normal" - I'm just supposed to be normal when yesterday he yelled at me and told me how vile and horrible I was and pushed and shoved and pulled my hair, and wrestled me to the ground. And he has not apologized. I cannot be normal just right now. I need time to calm down.

So there we are - I'm at work. Will try to update later on. Take care. I'm praying, trying to.

LIR

OK, so I get home for lunch - I call up the stairs softly to see if he's home "H?" He answers "Yes?" "Oh, you're home." I go into the kitchen. He comes into the kitchen. He has his back to me. He says "I called the credit card company - they are going to send you a card in 7-10 days. There, are you happy now?" He is not mad. I am quiet for a minute and then I say, "Well, I wouldn't exactly call it that, but thank you for doing that for me. " He said "I didn't do anything - it wasn't anything to do." "Yes, it was," I said, "You had to make the decision to do that. Thank you for deciding to do that. This is a step that will really be helpful for both of us." We then got lunch on the table. We started talking again - he showed me his CD cover which has come from the recording company - we talked about the children's progress. When we sat down to lunch, I said "Since we both love each other, can we start over again?" He looked a little worried, but relaxed a little more, too. I said "I'm sorry about how things turned out yesterday." He said "Hmmm" I said "Maybe we can talk about some other time." He relaxed completely.

Now he is happy again. There are a lot of things I think that are contributing to making him feel better, not just patching things up with me - his CD is coming together and he is liking that - that was really bugging him this week - so now that is resolved, maybe his mind is able to be more understanding with me.

I am tired - feel physically exhausted right now. But I feel there is more hope now.

Dear ss - you don't ever sound cold, and I think you do a good job of trying to understand - the point is that you try - I am sure your wife appreciates that you try - when a woman sees that a man (her H) is trying for her, it doesn't matter that he doesn't get it completely - what matters is that he loves her enough to try.

Your prayers must have helped - I sometimes wonder why the bad side seems so ferociously strong sometimes.

I will post tomorrow, but I think tonight I won't have another chance.

See you later - thanks so much for being there.

LIR

HI, LIR
Where to start, Where to start.

There is so much going around in my mind right now. My biggest thought is probably relief, as I have read down to the end and at least things are bearable, and you are still there.

I'll just start by making some comments.
But first, remember that I am not a councilor. I just give my opinion and I hope I help but I usually just relate it to how I feel and think, I am not trained in this stuff. I think this is a good time to work on getting into MC.

I know you care. Your wife has a good husband. I know my husband could be a good husband, too, if he would just make the effort it takes to try to learn something different. I would support him all the way if he would just try.
Once I was where he is now, I'm glad my W did not quit. I realize when you said this that when my W first brings up something, I often say NO and won't talk about it. Then I realize I love her and I come back in a day or two and tell her I am sorry and can we talk about it. Why do I do that?

I love him and want us to work out, but I am still too angry to talk - all I can hear is this voice in my head saying "She's horrible, horrible, horrible and you shouldn't have to be treated like this" - I can't see straight or think straight right now, I just can't cope, except on my own. I do not have the strength to deal with him right now. I am tired of being abused and insulted.
I am sorry. I know that by the time you read this, you will be doing better. The atonement of Christ is so amazing to me, because we can do these kinds of things, and he can still forgive us. But that is another subject, and I had best get back to this post.

I am only here because I loved him - sometimes I think I am only here because I was the only one stupid enough to take the bait, bite, and now I'm hooked.
My belief is that if we knew what it was like before we married, not one of us would get married. I recall the story of the girl that was soon to marry and told her mother " I feel like I am at the end of all my troubles." and the mother replied " yes dear, but which end?"
There are times when my W lays her head on my shoulder and feels like she is in heaven. And there are STILL times like a few nights ago when she feels like leaving. I think we can have more and more of those "Heaven" times but I don't know if we can completely banish the bad ones.

I slept in the guest room last night - he came to our bed and I couldn't sleep - I had a splitting headache and finally had to get up and move. But I took him a cup of tea this morning. And he lifted his head and said "There's a book here that might be of help to you on your program notes." I took it and said thank you but I am MAD. And I DON'T want to talk to him.
This is natural to feel like this and one of the hardest things for me to learn is to never, never, never, never, never, never say anything while I feel like this. Never. But, I still slip up.

Downstairs, he said "Doesn't anyone want to know how OS was last night?" Aggressive - go on - ask me! - So I said, "Of course, how was he?" "Fine" Nothing more coming from me. "Oh, forget it," he muttered. He's angry because I won't be "normal" - I'm just supposed to be normal when yesterday he yelled at me and told me how vile and horrible I was and pushed and shoved and pulled my hair, and wrestled me to the ground. And he has not apologized. I cannot be normal just right now. I need time to calm down. So there we are -

There are too many thoughts crowding my mind here to know what to say about him. I agree that you cannot be normal, and that you need time.

I'm praying, trying to. I am so glad you pray. I know you are trying.

OK, so I get home for lunch
I don't know what to say about this one, I should come up with a witty remark, but I'm not very witty, and you are probably not in the mood.

I call up the stairs softly to see if he's home "H?" He answers "Yes?" "Oh, you're home." I go into the kitchen. He comes into the kitchen. He has his back to me. He says "I called the credit card company - they are going to send you a card in 7-10 days. There, are you happy now?" He is not mad. I am quiet for a minute and then I say, "Well, I wouldn't exactly call it that, but thank you for doing that for me. " He said "I didn't do anything - it wasn't anything to do." "Yes, it was," I said, "You had to make the decision to do that. Thank you for deciding to do that.
If he didn't love you, and want it to work, he would not have done this. He still has all of his bad habits, and this is setting you up for another disappointment but it is good that he did this for you. Reason I say it is setting you up - one of those other bad habits he has will come out and you will say " I thought there was hope, but now he does this." I like to think of it like someone recovering from an accident. They stand up on their crutches, and we say yeahhhh, they can walk. Then they fall down. We don't say " they can't walk." We say, "temporary setback" I'm trying to get you to see things that way, but you have had so much bad for so long that you sometimes lack the faith. You should see this credit card thing like getting up on crutches, always a positive sign. DON'T GET SO UPSET WHEN HE FALLS DOWN, and learn to help him back up, don't kick him while he is down. (that's a figure of speech, I will explain more later, don't take it personal)

This is a step that will really be helpful for both of us.
Sounds like you do understand.

We then got lunch on the table.
I just ate and now you have me hungry again. What's for lunch?
Oh, sorry, got sidetracked.

We started talking again - he showed me his CD cover which has come from the recording company - we talked about the children's progress.
Good stuff. Glad you were able to do it, to talk with him. How are the children progressing? How do we get a CD when it comes out? - Uh, sorry again, I'll try to stay on task.

When we sat down to lunch, I said "Since we both love each other, can we start over again?" He looked a little worried, but relaxed a little more, too. I said "I'm sorry about how things turned out yesterday." He said "Hmmm" I said "Maybe we can talk about some other time." He relaxed completely. Now he is happy again. This is not what you wanted to say at first. How did it feel saying it? Are you happy with his reaction, or do you feel cheated that he can relax, while you are still in turmoil?
I believe that this is the right direction, but how do you feel?

There are a lot of things I think that are contributing to making him feel better, not just patching things up with me - his CD is coming together and he is liking that - that was really bugging him this week - so now that is resolved, maybe his mind is able to be more understanding with me.
We often don't think of these things when we want what we want. I am glad you are thinking about them. You are considering that sometimes his lack of feeling and his bad reactions are partly because of his stress from other things. I still have a hard time taking these things into account with my W. Thanks for helping me remember.

I'm tired - feel physically exhausted right now. But I feel there is more hope now.
I was so afraid for you. I am soooooo glad to see this line in here. ( not the part about being exhausted, the part about hope.) Things that strongly effect our emotions take a lot out of us. Our spirits and bodies are closely tied aren't they.

Thanks for the update. I have some things for you to think about.

I haven't lived with a spouse having an EA. I don't know how you have made it this far with such strength. I have a great deal of respect for you. You could have quit, but you have not.
BUT -
But, I have another story for you.
I don't like to keep secrets from my W and she may read this, but here goes. When we married, my W was 107 lbs and on the local college ballroom dance team. Over the years since we married, my W has gained weight. I am 6ft tall and I was overweight ( still am a little) and she is 5ft 4 inches, and she weighted 25 lbs more than I when I was the heaviest. This is not attractive to most men, and it is not healthy. How would you suggest I deal with this? What if she asked me (and she has) " Do I look fat in this dress?" Radical Honesty? Be blunt? I really would like her to loose weight.
I could say " yes you look fat, you should loose weight" That is honest and it is blunt. I could say oink, oink when she starts eating a cookie just before we sit down to salad for lunch. ( one poster said just a few days ago that her H does this one.) I could do it this way.

I could say " Honey, you have always looked good to me." And in my mind this is true.
Then a few days later I could say " You know, last summer when we hiked, you seemed to think it would be better if you lost a few pounds, why don't we see what we can do to get you back to where you are more comfortable."

I am sure you know where I am going with this story.

I believe you were at the end of your rope with H. I suspect you have tried the soft approach. Perhaps you did the only thing that would work. What if my W says. " I am happy like I am, and don't want to loose weight." Then can I call her fat? Say oink, oink? When do I have the right to cease being nice?
I don't have any answers for you. For many on this site, an overweight spouse is the death of their marriage. It is that important to them. I couldn't do these things to my W. She has a hard enough time knowing that she is not what she once was. Why should I destroy my companion.? She has been kind to me even with all the weaknesses I have, shouldn't I be kind back?
I want you to know that I believe you are in a little different spot than I am, and it is not the same, but I thought it may get you to think a bit about where to go from here.

BTW, we are both on a diet and it is feeling good to get back down to normal. My mom gave me a box of See's candy for my birthday so I may have a relapse. ( See's started in Southern Cal, thought you may have heard of it.)

I hope this can now be the opening to go to counseling for the two of you.
"H, what happened a few days ago was not a good thing. I don't ever want it to happen again. I have issues that I need to go to counseling for, and it will do me no good to go without input and help from you. Will you go with me and help me?
If it needs more impact, add in " I feel we may very well end up divorced if we don't take care of them now."

True?
You do have issues - with things he does, or does not do.
You do need his input, without it, things would never work. He will think he is going to help you, and you know what, he will be right, but not the way he thinks.

I don't have all the answers. Work on you, ask him to help.

Suggestions to help YOU the next few days.
Music can help us relax. Play what works for you. Would he play for you? Would it help?
Don't play stuff with a beat or tempo that makes it worse.
Pray.
Read the scriptures. Pray that God will show you what will help right now.
Play with the boys. See what you are staying for.
Spend time with H. Don't talk about R. Ask him about HIM. Find out why his is the way he is. Don't be obvious. Just talk.

- when a woman sees that a man (her H) is trying for her, it doesn't matter that he doesn't get it completely - what matters is that he loves her enough to try.
It looks to me like your H fits this description too. He could have run or made it worse, but he ordered the card.

I can't say half of what I am thinking. God will have to make up for my lack. This is to long already, so I will quit.

Lady, I just heard a song on the radio. L I R is dancing tonight. I hope you and H get a chance to make this song come true for you all over again.

Remember that your family come first. Don't feel you have to post when you don't have proper time to do it.

SS

Dear ss -

I'm at work again, so don't have time to go into detail - should have more time this eve.

Things are much better - and I do believe that in a big way, although I take on board what you said about "setting you up" -

So what happened? After lunch, H went out to get YS from school, and when he came home, we were in the kitchen together. He turned around, and he was unwrapping a toffee - "I know you're on a diet," he said, "But I know you will like this," and he popped it into my mouth, then we both put our arms around each other as carefully and tenderly as if we were each made of glass, and hugged and patted each other, murmuring "sorry," to each other. After we finished hugging, I had my arm around him still and I said "Were you upset about other things yesterday?" "Yes, about the imminent future of -------- (the church where he works)" "Sometimes," I said, "I can't tell if its a good time to talk to you or not..." - it seems that he is really worried that he might not have a job at some point in the future, but he hasn't been telling me this, in fact he has been telling me the opposite. The church where he works is having "foundation" problems and is thinking of joining with another church - there are major upheavals there - well, he has been talking to me about this, but he has been saying things like "The boss says not to worry, that my job is not going to go...", etc. I think that he has been saying this to reassure both himself and me that his job is secure, but deep down, he is actually VERY worried that his job is not secure, but he hasn't wanted to share that worry with me. I can understand that this comes from a sense of wanting to protect me, but I didn't realize that was what he was thinking about so much -

look I've got to go - someone has just come in -
see ya later.

LIR

ss - I've got some ideas on your problem - will think about this and get back to you - just think of it this way - you're a repairman, right? Her metabolism needs tinkering with - she needs to find the RIGHT diet, and I have 2 good ideas, just have to check something first.

LIR

Boy did I ever mess up, not enough background.

On my wife being overweight -
I was trying to use that story to relate to what you are doing with H. I did not do a very good job with it, I can see. Please forgive me.
I was trying to point out that blunt is not always best.

We are both on a diet, and have both lost weight, and are steadily loosing. Most of our problem is the style of cooking my wife was raised with. Heavy on fats, sauce or gravy with everything. I was raised with more fresh vegies, no frills, and we are doing more of that now and it works pretty well - until my b-day candy came.

I hate it when I mess up. Please forgive me for not explaining things in a better way.

No, I wanted to try and get across that there were many options I had to help her, but some ways are better than others.

HOWEVER, glad to take any help at all, and thankyou for thinking of me.

I still worry about you, what's up?

SS

(Later)
I also got to thinking about your H's worry about his job. I have had this "wondering" before. It still happens sometimes now even though I run the company that I work for. It sometimes is almost an overwhelming thing, and it comsumes most of my waking thought and energy when in the middle of it. I think he must love you very much to do as well as he has done with that hanging over him.

<small>[ October 04, 2002, 04:01 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Hi there -

Did you mess up? Maybe I was just being dense again - so caught up in my own problems I missed something there - now that you mention it, it somehow didn't sound like you to even consider saying "oink, oink" when your wife eats a cookie before dinner - I couldn't imagine you would really do that -

But I was going to suggest a couple of things that worked for me - since my H and I are also both trying to lose a little weight - he is 46 and I'm 45 - we are both within 15 lbs of optimum weight, so we don't have alot to lose, but losing weight and being fit are two different things - both of us could stand to shape up what's left of our bodies - he hates going to the gym, and I never seem to find the time to exercise - but I walk 1-2 miles a day, and he bicycles around town, so we're doing OK considering.

What I was going to say is that I was a little heavier a few years ago, due to putting on weight after YS birth and subsequent health problems - I had a pulmonary embolism and had to be on blood thinners for 9 months, in addition I was on anti-D's for Post Natal Depression for 3 yrs, and progesterone for 9 months to stop my periods - I developed varicose veins internally in whole pelvic area - stopping periods helped "rest" all the veins and eased the pain. All of that medication changed my metabolism and I gained weight.
I was not able to lose weight while I was on the meds but when I was off everything, then I hated myself, as I have always been slim. Being heavy is a miserable experience for most women, but accepting that we are not all built like Pamela Anderson is also part of being normal - our bodies often feel out of our control - I mean, imagine if once a month your nose hair suddenly descended to your top lip, and so you had to trim it before you went out to work in the morning, then during the day, it kept creeping out of your nose, so you had to keep checking and trimming it through the day, and this happened 5 days out of every month whether you liked it or not. You could always cut your nose off, but that would create worse problems, so you learn to live with it. And what if you knew your nose hair was about to start growing because you suddenly got the urge to eat certain flowers in the garden, an urge you could resist on most other days, but the day before your nose hair started to grow, you felt if you couldn't eat those flowers, you would just go mad! I mean, sounds ridiculous, but this is the kind of thing us women are lumbered with for life! So we just learn to live with it, and if we find a few petals sticking to our chins once in a while, we might try to hide it, we might shrug it off.

My point is a lot of women's weight problems are hormonal. I was going to point you in the direction of a book called "The Body-Shaping Diet" by Sandra Cabot. I think it is out of print but it is available on www.abebooks.com. This is a worldwide second-hand book directory - you just type in the title, author or keyword into the search engine, and it will find your book for you from any of its registered dealers world-wide - I tried it and there are 30 hits for this book. Well - its the best thing I have ever seen for women and explains why some diets work for some women and not for others. Women are different hormonal types and need to modify their eating habits to re-regulate their hormonal balance. Once they do that, this helps get rid of the cravings which plague women and make them abandon diets. Its worth a look.

----

But I need to tell you where I'm at right now. I'm good! I am having the feeling that although this was a painful experience, that we both pressed through something here.

There were things you said that made a difference, and helped me see that reconciliation was possible, so I am trying to remember here.

First, you said that his helping was a sign that he wanted to reconcile. I suppose I sensed this, but was not sure. In the past, when he has done this, I have felt like he is trying to make me feel guilty, or trying to buy me off by showing me he can still do things for me even if he is mad. Because when he offers to help at this point, he is still mad, too and it shows. But this time, I saw it as a sign that he was trying to build a bridge, even if he had only got to the steps up, and the span wasn't finished yet.

You then said I had to soften somehow, to make room for him to be able to apologize. This is what is hardest for me. I feel like he is so wrong and that if I say sorry first, without him having shifted my way at all on the point in question, that he will see that he can always win, and then he won't ever change. I honestly do feel sorry that things went so horribly wrong, and I am honestly upset with myself for not being able to leave the argument alone, and I can say sorry for that, but I am never sorry for being honest. I am sorry for being brutal. This time, I tried to make the first move and say sorry verbally as best I could. And that was what happened - I made room for him to come to me and say sorry then, and he did. He not only said sorry, he moved forward and changed something he has not been willing to change for 15 years - giving me a credit card.

And that's the crucial thing. I was thinking, what do you want, change or apologies? Given a choice between the two, I would choose change. And I was so lucky - I got both.

But what do I think happened? Looking back, I think he is far more stressed about his job than I was aware of. He has been doing his taxes, and he is seeing that he made a lot less money last year than the year before - this is a big trigger for him and set off a lot of habitual insecurity. He has also been hiding his concern over his job - he doesn't want me to worry unduly. I had opened the topic of the credit card over Tuesday lunch, and he had been agreeable in his oblique kind of way - I think he was ready to give me the credit card anyway without the battle - but he had not said so. I got anxious and tried again the next day, and he felt like I was pushing him and reacted negatively - it went from there.

I know that this does not mean that we will be able to talk openly about all the other things - but I feel like we really made some headway here. I felt like we really communicated to each other that we really love each other and don't want to go on with this kind of conflict. And that despite coming to blows with each other, underneath that is a deep love for each other, and we actually, maybe for the first time, wholeheartedly forgave each other.

Thank you ss - I have learned a lot! You are a great marriage coach! I know sometimes its easier to see other people's problems more clearly than your own, but when you do have experience, sharing it with others helps reinforce it for yourself.

I have learned that by apologizing first, I give him the space to apologize. I have learned to interpret his signs that he wants to reconcile and that if I want to reconcile, I have to try to accept this. I have seen that he is trying to change things that he sees are important to me. This makes me willing to go on, even though I know there may me more difficult times to come.

I think we still need MC, but I am going to wait a couple of weeks before I bring that up again.

I also remembered to say "I love you" while we hugged.

I am hoping I can someday introduce my H to the forum - but I would only do that when I felt sure he wouldn't get mad at me for sharing personal problems. He still has anger management issues he has to deal with. But I see positive signs.

I am really tired now - its late and I was up at 5;30 am finishing my notes - all done now! what a relief! H enthusiastically helped me edit them at the last minute -his help made them better notes.

I am worried about Dreamland, BTW - I have tried to say something helpful to him, but still feel worried. He sounds terribly low - I wish he could see a doctor and get some anti-D's. I have been that low and it is not fun.

Have a great weekend - we are taking the boys to a model train exhibition tomorrow - looking forward to it.

Cheers!
LIR