We've gotten as far as MC. WH and I have many good conversations now. In one of them, WH brought up the idea that he didn't believe I should need him to make me feel "complete," but that I should be "complete" as an individual before I come to the marriage. I have always thought I needed my H to fulfill me in my sense of who I am as a married woman, a wife, a mother. I suppose part of WH's issue with this may well be that I am communicating certain needs I have that he finds hard to fill. I'm not sure. I have been thinking about this idea and wonder what you all think?
Interested in your response, and thanks.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">he didn't believe I should need him to make me feel "complete," but that I should be "complete" as an individual before I come to the marriage.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, I agree with him. IMHO, a good marriage starts with two individuals who are whole and healthy, complete in themselves, but who find an extra measure of joy and love (among other things!) in each other.

I would say I definitely feel "complete" without him, but, for many reasons, I choose to be with him because he adds to my life.

Kathi

<small>[ July 31, 2002, 02:54 PM: Message edited by: kam6318 ]</small>

I find that we complement each other.She makes up for the things I'm weak in and visa versa.This does not make me complete but us complete. You are right that me must all be complete as individuals but we all need to be complete in the relationship department. We all need to belong to someone we can share our lives with both good and bad.

231

<small>[ July 31, 2002, 03:12 PM: Message edited by: 231 ]</small>

Thanks for your posts, Kathi and 231. I know the MC has spent a lot of time on the perspective you have, Kathi, that we can't as individuals be incomplete and seek others to make us feel that way. It's like giving when your cup is empty. And I agree with you, 231, that it's great to have complementary talents and abilities and strengths, so that all the bases are covered between the two of you. That works really well when it comes to raising children, one of you will have more patience than the other and so on.

What puzzles me on this issue is the idea of "love 'em or leave 'em." If we are complete in and of ourselves, what does the marriage vow really mean? That, as you said, Kathi, we have a greater measure of joy because we are together? Doesn't our trust in each other as spouses mean that we have vulnerabilities in that relationship which mean we are not complete without each other? Isn't that why it hurts when our spouse cheats on us? If I really were complete without my H, then none of these hurtful infidelity issues would touch me. More than that, I could respond with individual strength "Screw him! I'm leaving!" (which of course I didn't do because I DO depend on him and rely on him for comfort and companionship. so does that mean I am incomplete without him?)

Always interested in your thoughts.

Thanks for your posts, Kathi and 231. I know the MC has spent a lot of time on the perspective you have, Kathi, that we can't as individuals be incomplete and seek others to make us feel that way. It's like giving when your cup is empty. And I agree with you, 231, that it's great to have complementary talents and abilities and strengths, so that all the bases are covered between the two of you. That works really well when it comes to raising children, one of you will have more patience than the other and so on.

What puzzles me on this issue is the idea of "love 'em or leave 'em." If we are complete in and of ourselves, what does the marriage vow really mean? That, as you said, Kathi, we have a greater measure of joy because we are together? Doesn't our trust in each other as spouses mean that we have vulnerabilities in that relationship which mean we are not complete without each other? Isn't that why it hurts when our spouse cheats on us? If I really were complete without my H, then none of these hurtful infidelity issues would touch me. More than that, I could respond with individual strength "Screw him! I'm leaving!" (which of course I didn't do because I DO depend on him and rely on him for comfort and companionship. so does that mean I am incomplete without him?)

Always interested in your thoughts.

Thanks for your posts, Kathi and 231. I know the MC has spent a lot of time on the perspective you have, Kathi, that we can't as individuals be incomplete and seek others to make us feel that way. It's like giving when your cup is empty. And I agree with you, 231, that it's great to have complementary talents and abilities and strengths, so that all the bases are covered between the two of you. That works really well when it comes to raising children, one of you will have more patience than the other and so on.

What puzzles me on this issue is the idea of "love 'em or leave 'em." If we are complete in and of ourselves, what does the marriage vow really mean? That, as you said, Kathi, we have a greater measure of joy because we are together? Doesn't our trust in each other as spouses mean that we have vulnerabilities in that relationship which mean we are not complete without each other? Isn't that why it hurts when our spouse cheats on us? If I really were complete without my H, then none of these hurtful infidelity issues would touch me. More than that, I could respond with individual strength "Screw him! I'm leaving!" (which of course I didn't do because I DO depend on him and rely on him for comfort and companionship. so does that mean I am incomplete without him?)

Always interested in your thoughts.

Your husband is right. You need to be a complete individual, in order to fulfill your half of the relationship with something of value.

I was raised to think exactly as you do - and it was the absolute worst thing my parents could have done to me. It nearly sabotaged my life, not just my marriage.

With alot of hard work and counseling and work on ME, I've become much more independent - my sense of self-esteem is now grounded inside of myself, I no longer depend on other's thoughts about me to validate myself.

This deep change in me brought about wonders in my relationship with my husband. We have a much more complete relationship because I am a complete person.

One thing that has happened to me in the last year was that I had to go find a job. I honestly didn't believe I could do much more than maybe check groceries at the local Pathmark, or answer phones some where for minimum wage.

My husband pushed me, and I stumbled into a job well beyond what I thought I could do. And found not only could I do it, but I was good at it. This has given me confidence in myself that shines out in everything else I do. My husband literally stands on the sidelines cheering me on. I don't NEED him to do what I am doing, but it sure makes it sweeter to come home to a guy who thinks I am the coolest babe around for the things I've accomplished for myself personally.

I have given him reason to admire me. I am no longer a clinging weak woman who depends on him to define who I am. I define who I am, and it gives our relationship more verve for lack of a better term. We have things to converse about - we go for walks in the evening and talk nonstop the whole time about all kinds of stuff. I tell him about my days and what I am doing at work, he tells me about the kids, and what kind of cool articles he read on net (he's a voracious reader).

We never used to have anything to talk about. He had a high need for conversation. Guess what the OW did for him? She was educated, well traveled, and just plain interesting because she had a well developed life of her own.

Now that I have learned to do that for myself - it's one less hole left gaping in our marriage.

That's why Plan A is about becoming the best YOU that you can be. One has to be independent as a person before learning interdependence in a relationship. Depending on someone else to define yourself is the definition of co-dependence.

Wow, Bramblerose, you've given me lots to think about. Congratulations on the new-won self-esteem and independence. I think this is a great thought for many on the value of a healthy self-esteem. Thanks so much. Take care.

I am complete without my H. Had a life outside our M all the time... job, education, friends... always believed that personal development/fulfillment was a solo journey but we invite others to be with us along the way.

Agree with a lot of the comments here. My H enhanced my life... I enjoyed his company, his intelligence, friendship, our sex life, raising kids with him... but during this period (MLC), he seems to view it as "codependency." Actually told me that I was a codependent once. Arghgh.

I think to have a really solid R, you need to be happy with yourself first before you can have, maintain, and grow a good R with anyone--even just a friendship. You can't rely on someone to make YOU complete.

It's a sticky idea, though, because it seems that spouses to add and contribute to our lives... that's WHY we fell in love with them to begin with.

We should feel complete as persons without our spouses. From my perspective, I had a life outside our M all the time... job, education, friends, and always was happy and content with that... always believed that personal development/fulfillment was a solo journey but we invite others to be with us along the way.

Agree with a lot of the comments here. My H enhanced my life... I enjoyed his company, his intelligence, friendship, our sex life, raising kids with him... but during this period (MLC), he seems to view it as "codependency." Actually told me that I was a codependent once. Arghgh.

I think to have a really solid R, you need to be happy with yourself first before you can have, maintain, and grow a good R with anyone--even just a friendship. You can't rely on someone to make YOU complete.

It's a sticky idea, though, because it seems that spouses to add and contribute to our lives... that's WHY we fell in love with them to begin with.

<small>[ August 01, 2002, 08:58 AM: Message edited by: bluekeys ]</small>

Thanks for what you added, Blue Keys. This healthy self-esteem stuff seems to be an integral part of healing and developing a healthier marriage. So other than career development, any other ideas as to how a SAHM can develop a better self-esteem???

I think I disagree with some. ( meaning no disrespect to others opinions)

I think we can function well apart, and accomplish a great deal, but I think my wife completes me. I believe it is in Genesis Chapter 2 where God said that " it is not good for man to be alone." I think he means both men and women. I think this is one case where the whole is a lot more than the sum of the parts.

I think everyone has valid points. I don't believe we should be weak, or dependent. I think of it as a team effort. We help each other and two working together can accomplish a lot more than each could working separately. I examine my goal of raising a family. Now, many of my goals could be done on my own, but this one is impossible without her. Most of my goals - while they don't depend on her for success, are much easier completed with her support.

Perhaps we are just differing on the way we define things. I could still function without her. I could still be successful in many ways. Now that my children have been conceived and born into the world, I could raise the family on my own if I had to do so. I can't imagine wanting to do so or thinking I could do as well alone as we do as a team.

So, I agree with many of the points made here, but I think my wife completes me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

SS

<small>[ August 01, 2002, 12:09 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

The main reason I love my GF so much is the fact is she can look after herself should anything happen to me and if something should happen to me at lest I know there is someone here who will look out for my own children and speak for me on my behalf if.We can depend on one another and be indepentant too.

231

I am one who was a very complete person before M. (20 yrs) Lately I have had lots of ups and downs. And I wish W and I would be more connected and supportive of each other to get thru those times. No one should go thru those times alone.

My problem is that W sought out OM for support when she needed it - an old friend. So while I don't NEED W for me to be whole, I would sure rather be a more intimate part of her support mechanism than the OM. Likewise, I wish W were more a part of my support team in those times. Why not.

It's not about wholeness - it's about intimacy for me.

Some really great thoughts, there. I have to agree with you, searching 2, on the idea that this is all about intimacy. If I am an independent person, there may still be times when I want my spouse to be there for me, even though I could have taken care of matters myself. Gotten through a tough issue. It's great to have the support, let the guard down a little, and let someone IN your life. Is that what is meant by intimacy? Does that mean you're being dependent in a negative sense? Does relying on each other mean dependent in a clingy sense? How does one draw the line?

Thanks for insights.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">any other ideas as to how a SAHM can develop a better self-esteem </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good question... hope someone can jump in here with that. For me, it wasn't career development. That came as a good by product to the fact I always wanted to be a writer, so I worked hard and studied hard to be there. That's it--and so that is just one of my personal avenues that I can follow. In that respect, I just followed my natural inclinations of what I liked to do and could do well. I guess to me, that's as good a hint as any... just find those things you're interested in, like to do, and just pursue them. I had an advisor in school once tell me that if you want to feel really bad about yourself, then just show up anywhere in life (school, job, whatever) and plug along. But if you really wanted to feel good about yourself, you'd find things that suit YOU and pursue them, and find ways of using your talents to challenge you. Of course, she was talking about the course of studies I'd follow, but that just seems to make good sense to me... if you are naturally inclined towards doing something well, you'll accomplish things and then build your self-esteem that way.

I guess life can give us a bag o'cr*p at times and we gotta do something with it. But, jsut my opinion here... handling this situation through what I know I can do or things I want to try (like write or attempting to use a screw driver to put together a DIY shelf kit <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) helps. I know I gotta learn how to be more mechanical, so even if it isn't something I'm naturally inclined to do, I can start small to minimize my efforts at failure. And I actually did get those shelves put together. (He he... my oldest D had to help, but just for an extra pair of hands to hold shelves.) So, it's a small step, but I did do it. Some confidence in myself now in that area, I can attempt something else that may be a bit more complicated... so maybe that's another way to build self esteem? Start small, build confidence, move on to something a bit more complicated?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My husband pushed me, and I stumbled into a job well beyond what I thought I could do. My husband pushed me, and I stumbled into a job well beyond what I thought I could do. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I like that thought... sometimes others will push us. I kind of think now that if I take this situation one small step at a time, like those shelves, maybe it's possible to turn this situation around OR at least make it less difficult despite the outcome.

We don't really "need" anything other than food, water, and air. But that is life, not living.

I agree that people should be complete on their own before getting into a relationship. However, I cannot say that I have practiced what I preach. I have had some self esteem issues where I thought (I use past tense because I am now learning to change things) I needed other people to love me for me to be able to love myself. I have found that this is not true.

This is not to say that we don't need other people for things. Sometimes when things happen, such as a death of a loved one or an affair, it is good to have someone to lean on. I don't think that is being "needy" or "clingy".

Two people should be able to stand on their own as individuals but should also compliment each other. Generally speaking, an area one is weak in, the other should be strong in. They should be able to work as a team.

I know in my case, this has not always been true. But my H and I are learning about ourselves and each other and this is making us stronger as a couple. More of a team.

Thanks, Bluekeys and Regretting for your responses. I appreciate your personal story, Bluekeys. Had a session with MC today and perhaps can add something here to the discussion which I think is really about SELF-ESTEEM. MC said today that we can't even begin to work on M until our individual selves are healthier and more balanced. Another stratagy of meeting needs, but first our own needs have to be met. Any attempt to meet strictly spouse's needs and neglecting ourselves will fail. We will be worn out and uninteresting to spouse. I don't think this is a case of "I fill your bucket, you fill mine." Rather, we have to be individually strong and healthy. Whaddya think?

I was complete before I got married... I think.

I realize now that so much of my self-esteem, core values, and "completion" was tied up in the notion that the love my wife and I shared was 'special' and 'meant to be' and that it could be relied on when nothing else could. Boy did she prove me wrong! <bitter laugh>

Wow, Lyxa, that hit the nail on the head for me. Thats something I have been thinking about a lot lately,that the feeling of completion was tied up in all those things you mentioned. And tho we are in recovery and doing well, I have lost something that I will never regain. I am at a standstill in my own recovery perhaps for this reason. I'm not sad necessarily, just have no joy anymore. I am just existing.

I know that I have self-esteem problems that have cropped up after disclose of A's. Were they there before? Sure, but since I "knew" that my H "loved" me so completely, they did not crop up. Now? They are at the forefront of everything I do. I guess I also need to be loved in order to love myself. So I have some issues to work on in therapy. I need to learn how to love me. C