tutter,

I am going to say something different then anyone else here. Do not try to calm down. It will not work. What you need to do is to go to a open field somewhere, scream at the top of your lungs, and run as fast as you can until you colapse. This will take care of the adrenalin rush you are facing. The adrenalin is what is causing you to feel panic. Burn the adrenalin out of your system by strenuous physical activity, it will work.

Now you will be able to control yourself a little better and put together some composure. Recovery and marriage in general is filled with many ups and downs. This is just a bump in the road. Do not fuel his fire. Let him be. If you force him for answers, he will probably give you some, and they maybe not actually be how he is feeling, just he was provoked to say them. He is just having a bad few days. Let him be, be yourself, do what you have done in the past.

There is something that has triggered this reaction in him, and his love bank may have suffered a bit.

I agree with the post tabout telling him about your screen name and this site. Intimacy is the cornerstone of a marriage.

I sure wish my WW showed the care about out M as you do. Bless your heart.

((((hugs))))

Tutter,

This next comment is NOT about you so much as it is to point out where he has been and still is.

You said: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think that he'd ever cheat on me, but now I find myself wondering. I sit here and think where is he at lunch? Did he go to the mall? Does he hook up with someone? ...

I just feel so lost and confused right now....</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Tutter, this is how he has been feeling for the last year. It is probably still how he feels. Wondering where you are? Who you are with? Is it starting up again?

It takes time for all of this to settle down and the deep trust to return, but as someone pointed out the level of trust (the naive, total trust), he will never have again. And ironically neither will you.

So calm down, I suspect he is exploring himself. If he had wanted to leave he would have already, but a window has been thrown open as someone else posted and he can see what he refused to see before. This marriage could end and there are other women out there. I suspect he, like many really even let that thought enter his mind before.

So hang in there and keep talking to him. Do remember if you want him to continue opening up to him, don't nail him for what he says when he says it. Come back later and ask clarifying questions after some thought.

God Bless,

JL

Tutter,
I tend to think that any excuse not to divorce is a good excuse, like children, like religion. The more bonded (you get that word "bonded"?) you are the better. Saying it is his religion can also be a way to feel he's staying for a good reason. Even if he's down to just that one reason to stay, in time, other reasons, other bonds may be there.

Saying it's just religion or just for the kids can leave one foot out the door...but one foot is in. And, I have reason to know that even separation, or a bunch of them, though not generally positive, also is not necessarily the end of the marriage.

If you marriage is in more trouble than you wish it was, still, don't look at this year as wasted, it will never be a wasted time. It is a time where you've done your best, you've wanted to restore your marriage, that is so honorable. It's not a thing to regret.

Now, move forward in a way you won't regret. "If only I'd" is one of the saddest phrases, avoid it!

[[[[[Tutter]]]]]],

I understand completely how your H feels. I, too, have that cheated feeling. My H has been my one and only...I was a very late bloomer.

I told him recently that it really bothered me that he's been w/ someone else... I've never been w/ anyone else... it didn't matter about those BEFORE me... but MAN...

I, too, notice more now other men 'flirting' w/ me. It is a heady experience. I'm sure it happened before, but I wasn't vulnerable...

BUT, now that your storm is passing, I would like you think about something WONDERFUL! Your H told you about this. He didn't keep it secret. He allowed himself to be vulnerable to YOU.

Now is your chance to discuss fidelity, committment, attraction to others. I am not faithful to my H because HE wants me to be... but because I want to be. (Schnarch...The Passionate Marriage).

Hugs,
Cali

It's just getting worse!

I'm LBing because I got upset. Then I was crying and this sucks so damn bad. I don't know what's up and what's down. He is bitter and emotionless, he seems like there is no love and no feeling in what he is saying to me.

I asked him again, "am I losing you?" and he replied "in some aspects yes!" What the f*@k is that supposed to mean?!? How can I loose him in some aspects and yet look to have a good marriage and relationship.

I am so lost, and I can't concentrate on anything else. I hate life right now. If I didn't have my little boy I'd wish I was dead, but he'll keep me going some. I don't know what lies ahead. I am just so lost.

tutter:

Do you have any close friends or family that you can be with right now? Take the rest of the day off work and go see someone that can help you.

I know. I felt that panic you are describing just this past Friday. I ended up going to urgent care for a AD prescription. I also went back home to my W. Other family members know what happened now, and it's been incredible how having that support has helped me to level off, even if it only involved talking to them on the phone.

Take care,

This is where you have to ask yourself "What is the meaning of this crisis?"

All I can think of is Schnarch, when I read this... you are meeting a turning point... you, your H... are differentiating... will you figure out how to 'hold onto yourself?'

You and your H are in two separate boats... you cannot lose him... he can only lose himself. He may be behind you, next to you or in front of you in the marriage river...

Marriage is hard. I'm now amazed that I expected it to be so easy. But all YOU can do is to control YOU and YOUR own reactions....

and, in ALL things, take it to the Lord in prayer... ask Him for guidance and for his Will and to find out the meaning in all of this.

Cali

Hey, something just dawned on me. D-day anniversary was not all that long ago for you guys. You're H could be (even subconsciously) going thru a depression due to the time frame.

I know I go thru a major one around the anniversary of my mom's death, even though it's been three years.

I know... LB'ing is the "natural reaction" we all gravitate to when faced with something like this... I think being "needy" or "clingy" is a bona fide LB - hmm, maybe a seventh?? So I know it's ridiculous to just say, "Yeah, I'm not going to LB" and expect it to magically happen. But I think right now, if you can do it, you'll get some better results, anyhow... I've read that our feelings are designed to lead us down the path of getting more hurt... it's when we listen to our head and do the things we know need to be done that we tend to find happiness.

One foot in front of the other......

My eyes burn from crying, and my head hurts too. I so wish I knew what was going on in DH's head.

I sent him an e-mail apologizing for being upset in our last conversation. I went on to explain that I am scared and that I love him, etc.

I still don't understand the fact that I'm "losing him in some aspects". Is that healthy? I don't want to live in a marriage that is there out of convenience, and where we have lost eachother to an extent. I want us to live fully together as a married couple. As a family.

I feel ugly today. Funny, yesterday I felt like a princess from the way he looked at me with my new hair style. Today, I look in the mirror and I think of what has been said, and I feel ugly.

I don't know what my point is right now, but I am just really at at an all time low right now and needed to vent here. I cannot tell you all how much I appreciate you being there for me. Right now, I'm going to go back and re-read all of the replies. Thank you all so much for being there for me.

You know, I e-mailed him a good 3 hrs. ago and he hasn't had the decency to reply. I asked him to reply, but nothing. Is this just a way to say I'm hurting so let me throw a few things at you so you can fully see how it feels? I hurt so much!

We are supposed to have his dad's b-day party at my house Sat. I just want to hide all day. Then we are supposed to go to the Gravity Games on Sunday with our son. I dred this too. I hate the fact that everytime I look at something, anything, he will be wondering if I'm looking at a guy. Then everytime a girl looks at him I'm going to want to go cookoo. Plus, everytime he looks in the direction of a nice looking girl I'm going to think he's looking at her and wondering what he's thinking.

I feel unappealing and unatractive and just like **** right now. Sorry to be such a downer today, but again thanks for being there for me.

GIRL... get a hold of YOURSELF!!

Was affair and OM about your H??? NO... it was about YOU.

What your H is going through IS NOT ABOUT YOU... it is ALL about HIM.

Why should YOU feel unattractive, etc. because he is noticing other women being attracted to HIM? Your identity cannot be so fused to his that YOU cease to exist if he withdraws.

That's what this marriage thing is all about... learning to be INTERdependent... not dependent or INDEpendent.

YOU control YOU and your REACTIONS! Step back and make sure that you are not making a mountain out of a molehill. (not PMSing by chance? I tend to make Mt. Everest out of an anthill during THAT time).

You know what? I hate that 'looking over my shoulder' thing. I MISS that feeling of security... but you know what? The reality is that I NEVER REALLY HAD IT... and your H will have to come to this determination in his own way and own time...

...your freaking for the same reasons... YOU don't have the feeling of security either... you did it and you know he could too...

Now you have to decide, as he does, how to deal w/ that... YOU and HE separate. You can't steer his boat, and he can't steer YOURS.

Hugs again... hope you're feeling a little better.
Cali

Tutter Tutter Tutter!

You are falling into the trap!!! STOP STOP STOP! Step away and leave him alone right now...believe me, where he is right now is a place where ANYTHING you do will piss him off.

I've been there for weeks at a time. These past few weeks it has been so bad that I can't even stand thinking about kissing my H, there has been no SF for these few weeks (VERY odd for us)...I just don't care. It's all too complicated to type, but I know exactly where he is...<I>EXACTLY</I>

The one thing that REALLY pissed me off the most was my H pestering me. It made him appear so needy, which was a bad thing since I was feeling so resentful and angry that HE got to be selfish and I had to be the one with common sense...why couldn't <I>I</> be the needy one?? Finally we both read Twyla's post (I think it was a Godsend...I don't read much on here anymore, but just happened to click on that one?!) and I asked what H thought it meant. And OMG, he got it! It was a kick in the butt for both of us. I am still holding on to SO much bitterness, anger, resentment, etc.... and all I do is beat down H when he tries to do what I want...he opens up, I smack him down with stupid responses, etc. He's starting to resent me because of how I've been acting...but we talked about it a lot...about how he trained me to wait for the "next time." How I'm just waiting for the next bad thing to happen, to catch him doing the same stuff...and here I am doing everything I can (unconsciously) to MAKE IT HAPPEN again!! I'm stopping the cycle, stopping the pattern...I don't have a choice. Your H needs to realise this too...but without being pushed into it.

Maybe you both should read Twyla's thread... you are also getting angry and bitter with him right now, probably because his actions are triggering those feelings from pre-affair...

Good luck...and let him work through this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Twyla
Member
Member # 8810

posted July 31, 2002 12:48 AM
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Well, makes sense doesn't it? Think about when you and H first got together...could tell each other anything, would jump over the moon if your partner asked..as would they...you were nice to each other...you tried to please each other..those are the things that cause intimacy. Being emotionally safe.

But, unfortunately, we start taking each other for granted, start concentrating on the negative attributes of our spouses, we quit trying to impress them because we've GOT them, we critisize, we judge, we wait to be pleased...and all the while, the intimacy we so treasured..we destroy. In most cases, we treat our girlfriends better than we do our mates!

We played golf with another couple a few weeks ago. The wife commented how nicely my partner and I spoke to each other.."please and thank you, great shot, you'll get it next time" sort of stuff. Said she wished her H would talk to her that way...then went on to run him down with him right there. The saddest thing is that that could have been us 4 years ago...shoot, it WAS us.

After the A, we all concentrate on what they did together..the sex, the secrets...but you know what? Basically they were just nice to each other..they listened, they affirmed, they tried to please. And we sat here and made excuses about how life got in the way and we just didn't have time, the energy, or even the motivation to be nice anymore...and if we did..they probably didn't deserve it anyway because they weren't nice to us.

Don't get me wrong...day to day life is tough and can run down any relationship...and A's are like a vacation on fantasy island. But it sure is hard to go on vacation and leave behind someone who genuinely likes you, is nice to you and likes to please you.

What causes our recoveries to stall? Think about what we've all read and written. After the A, intimacy or emotional safety is at the lowest point in our life. They don't trust us to be nice (and indeed, sometimes they don't deserve it), and we don't trust them at all. We say we want them back, and yet we do and say things that send the message "you are scum".. Somebody has to go first. Somebody has to be nice first.

So, we read the books..we try..they don't reciprocate..we give up..they still don't "get it", we withdraw, they withdraw..and again intimacy stands still.

I say run your recovery like an A.

Afterall, "they" didn't start out emotionally connected...they MADE the connection...they were nice..they were on their best behavior..it wasn't simultaneous..someone made the first move..and kept on moving until the door opened a bit..and then small connections were made. No one critisised, no one LB'd...I imagine many times there was some conflicts that were simply avoided to keep the attraction. I doubt very many OP worried about their needs not being fulfilled...they concentrated on fulfilling the WS needs..and voila! The WS was more than happy to recipocate as best they could.

Do you think the OP stopped them and said.."no, I prefer you meet my need THIS way"? Heck no! They were thrilled and lavished the praise and reeled them in even further!

As hard as it is to imagine this...think for a minute...OP didn't have much time with the WS..but they sure made time...they made sure the WS knew NOTHING was too good for them.

They made sure they looked good, smelled good, and acted good. They listened, they laughed, they smiled and they made the WS feel wanted.

AND ALL THIS HAPPENED BEFORE THEY EVEN WENT TO A PA!!

While I'm on a roll, let's take it to the next level. How many female WS/OP on this board would have been satisfied to keep the relationship right here..at the EA stage? Almost all of them will tell you it went to a PA because that is what pleased the male. How many male OP/WS kept the EA stuff going in hopes of going to a PA? Probably most of them. (read JL's latest post on how men feel about sex..I'll find the thread later).

Anyway, my point is that neither of them ever said "I'm too tired". Neither of them ever thought "no way..you didn't meet my need, I'll be darned if I'll meet yours"...more likely "I'll do anything to keep them happy".

SO why the heck do we have such a hard time doing this in recovery? Why do we keep doing things like withdrawing or withholding when we know it doesn't get us what we want? Why do we focus on the negative attributes of our partners instead of praising the positive ones? Why don't we look at the lesson spelled out in front of us and imitate what worked?

Pride, anger, resentment, bitterness, hurt..all work against us. I'm not saying we don't have reasons for all of the above, but I doubt anyone ever looked at someone who was displaying those qualities and thought "gee, I wonder if I can get to know her better..I wonder if I could get her to love me."

Hey, it may be Fool's Gold, but when it's being lavished on you, it sure feels like the real thing. That's why I never comment when there is a new OP/WS on the board and they say they "love" their A partner...cause you know what?..if it feels like love..you'll call it love. If you were getting that from your spouse..heck yeah..you would call it love.

Like all of us here, I get down..I get tired of giving..I get tired of feeling like I'm "in charge" of the recovery, I wish more of my needs were met...and then I wonder...who promised perfection? All this work isn't going to make my relationship perfect..but it sure made it better. There is an intimacy now that was never present before.

And now we know..it takes more work to keep someone than it does to attract them.
Intimacy takes work...real gold doesn't shine unless you buff it.
T

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Who am I to offer or deny forgiveness? Shall I reach for the first stone? The Lord made a precondition for that priority that has long since disqualified me.

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Posts: 2088 | Registered: Jan 2001 | IP: Logged
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Cali - Thanks for the slap in the face. I was pretty much going overboard. I let my emotions take total control over me. I just felt, and I'm trying not to feel this way, pretty crappy. It makes me feel wonderful to have my DH attracted to me. I guess I felt I was losing that.

WeRtrying - Twyla's post makes a lot of sense. It was very calming to read. Thank you for thinking to share that with me.

All of you - Thank you so much for interceiding here and offering your words and help. It has all helped to keep me on track a bit, even if I seemed to really be losing it. I am still a bit out of control on emotions, and I am trying real hard to put myself into perspective to handle things well when DH picks me up in a half hour. I pray tonight goes well and we get somewhere. I'm sure we'll talk more and I will post an update tomorrow. I just can't tell you how much I appreciate you being here to help me through my day. You are all a God send.

Thank you all!

Tutter,

You need to slow down, breathe deeply, and understand this is all normal for some of us BSes.

Sounds like he is testing your resolve, and wanting to see your reactions to what he is telling you. He needs to see if you will fight for him. Quite possibly, literally fight for him.

One of the best things my wife could have done when I first started telling her I was aware of the looks I was now getting from women was, "How could women not look at you? You are an attractive man, my man."

The looks from other women were real. But I never cared about those women or what they thought about me. I only cared that my wife would say something to reinforce her love for me. I needed her to show me continually that (a) she realized her mistakes in having affairs, (b) she still found me attractive, (c) she was willing to compete if she had to.

My telling wife about the looks, or even outright flirting by other women had nothing to do with me wanting to hurt my wife. It had absolutely nothing to do with wanting cause her discomfort of any kind. It had everything to do with the need to feel validated by my true love, my wife.

I sense this could be what your husband is up to. What you must do is validate his feelings and his right to feel the way he does about certain things. Instead of showing him your pain at what he is telling you, agree that he is worthy of the looks he has been getting. Tell him how lucky you are to not have lost him. Do your very best to turn it into something you can both laugh at. Something like, the women can look and be safe but if they touch your man you fully intend to scratch their eyes out...(this in a funny sort of way).

Please understand that things will never be the way they were before. That when he tells you that someting was lost, or is missing, or he got cheated out of, he likely is talking about the percieved rights of a married person to be able to wholeheartedly trust their spouse.

Think about it for a minute. The BS will always have the need to worry whether or not the WS will be faithful for the duration of the marriage. The WS on the other hand is consumed by guilt over what they have done. In their guilt ridded state they lose all trust of the BS as well. They cannot fathom that the BS will remain faithful to them, because they know how easy it was for themselves to get sucked into an affair. Some WS even expect the BS to go have an affair so they can start off as equals again. However this is not a viable course of action.

People on this forum have stated that it is harder to have a good recovery that to have ended up in divorce court. I speak from my own experience in my short recovery, these people are telling it like it is. It is hard. But it will be so worth it.

jd

jdmac1... you make such a good point...

yesterday when I was talking to my H about bitterness and resentment....I asked what he resented *me* for..and he said he resented the *possibility* of me doing what he did! He is VERY scared about that. We also discussed the lack of SF and he said that right now, a spontaneous hug or peck from me or just a look in my eye MEANS SO MUCH to him, because he knows I'm not faking it...I *mean* it. He says right now he lives for those moments. Hearing him say that makes me realize how much pain and fear he is feeling too. I often felt like if I was "too happy" then he would think I was over the A and we could just move on...so my way of NOT letting us move on was to do what Tutter's H is doing. When I told my H that yesterday, he looked puzzled and said "When you are happy, I KNOW how hard you are trying to stay that way, how hard you are fighting for us, and I start to feel secure so I can open up....then you crash and I get scared and all I want to do is make you not go...I start to fall into my old habits of withholding things and not being open, because I just want you to stay and I don't want to do anything to scare you away." Hearing him say that really opened up my eyes to what I was doing to HIM and myself.

Tutter,
i don't know if this will help or what not just please take it with a grain of salt.
I totally agree with the future responses to his other women noticing him comment. Your A probably shattered his self worth. He doesn't need any more than you building it back up. Great idea to say, "Of course they think you're handsome, etc. My man is Handsome etc."
Plus think about it this way, maybe feeling the stress you are feeling will allow you to better empathize with what he went through during the A.
He isn't trying to punish you and even if he is you love him right? He loves you or he wouldn't have stayed. so take the lumps. Be greatful for the lumps. Be strong, he was strong for you.
He is just confused and judging by his first omment on your exciting new do, there is and will always be a part of him waiting for the other shoe to drop. It is an unfortunate consequence to affairs. Just don't LB. Be positive. Be the one to build him back up. You stroke his ego. Take charge and make him feel like the wonderful spouse he is.
Good luck,
Layli

Jdmac - You have really given me some good inside info. I truly appreciate you sharing this with me, it does help a lot. As I read your words I could put their meanings into places of our conversation last night. It makes so much sense, and I appreciate you being able to share and open my eyes to how it could be viewed from that side of things.

WeR Trying - I so know that fear of him doing what I did. Although I fully believe my DH would never cheat on me, that little fear is still there. It is real to me because I never believed I would cheat on him either. Thank you for taking the time to help me here.

Layli - Yes, take the lumps, and be strong. It's just hard to do some times. I started out strong with the whole thing and then reality set in and I freaked. I panicked. However, after work we regained our sense of communication well. Know this, even when you think your words may not help, just the thought of posting means so much. Thank you for caring.

Now, and update from last night. As you can probably see, I am doing much better today. I didn't want to leave my DH's side this morning, but we must work ya know.

Anyhow, we talked on our way home. He asked what I was thinking and I told him how it scared me. I explained what I was feeling, but I stayed calm and made sure I acknowledged his feelings and told him I could understand. We discussed the losing him in some aspects and he explained that there were just some things we missed and can't get back. So he meant one thing and I heard another.

Eventually we came to talk about how he is uncomfortable around men. Even if I am not there. I asked if it's gotten better over the year, and he said "honestly, no." I know some days are better than others, but it's still strong. I suggested us thinking about talking to the counselor again to work through some insecurities together. Find ways for me to help him feel safe. I meant well, but he took it as pointing the finger at him. I felt awful. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

We got past that though. I explained that it was just a suggestion. I told him that it's not about him or me right now, it's about us. I told him that I just want to help him and that I want us to work together to have a wonderful marriage and life together and that I would do anything to do that.

He mentioned that he just hates OM so much. He asked why can't I just be full of hatred. I tried to get him to see for himself how destructive it is to keep this hate so strongly and not let the love in, without exactly saying it. He said he tries to let it go but he just can't. I don't know how to really help him without LBing and pointing at flaws or such. I know it can hurt us, but fortunately it's not always that it overcomes him.

We were in the pool last night and talked some more. I told him that I love him more than anything and I just want to fill his void and have him feel love and passion from and because of me. He said he just wants me to give more to him than I did the OM. I told him I do. He looked me in the eye and asked "do you?" I said "yes DH I do!" I told him to live in this love and not the hate. We talked some more like this and we hugged and kissed a lot. It was rather intimate and very nice.

After DS went to bed we cuddled on the couch. We had talked about intimacy and his need for touch and closness, etc. I thought I was doing that for him, but I guess when you have a rough day you don't see everything so clearly. So, I made sure that last night I made him feel close to me. We had a very intimatly wonderful evening.

This morning I was a bit anxious and didn't want to leave his side. I just wanted to be by him to keep the mood going strong. I hope that the day apart will not drown our progress from last night.

In any event, thank you all for posting to me and putting up with my spazzy [censored] yesterday. Now you see where the name Tutter comes from. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> For those of you who don't have children, Tutter is a crazy blue mouse from a kid's program called "Bear in the Big Blue House". Anyhow, thank you for being there for me. Also, thanks for reading this and taking the time to check up on me. I truly appreciate all of you!

I fogot to ask. . . BS's - How long does the hate last? How did you get rid of it? What can I do to help my husband ease his hatred for the OM?

Thank you for your insights.

tutter13,

I wish I could help you about the hate part, but I do not hate the OM. I am not sure why this is. I think I should really hate him. I guess it is because of MB and my faith. I know that OM did not cause our marriage to sour and that the A was just a sympton of what was going on in our M.

Your 8:11 AM post brought me to tears. It gives me so much hope. I think like your H does about the OM. I stumbled upon some of the love emails WW sent him (O.K, I was snooping hard). I do not remember the last time WW has ever said out loud or in writing (if ever) the things she said to OM. Does that ever hurt me. I printed out a few of them especially the one where she talks about what she likes the best about OM. I occassionally will pull it out of its hiding place and re-read it, hoping to see at least something in there that my WW says to me.

We are not recovering now. My WW is in withdrawal and I am on the sidelines as I have been since D-day. Trying the best I can to win back her love. Nothing works and sometimes I think I would be better off just becoming distant.

I so much wish my WW was like you. I am trying to be patient. How long was it before you wanted to work on the marriage? What did it for you? Was it something your H did?

I am happy that you are doing better. MB is such a wonderful site, I do not want to think of where I would be without it.

<small>[ August 02, 2002, 08:41 AM: Message edited by: dreamland ]</small>