I am OK, but not doing as well as I was the 2-3 days following the confrontation.

For the first couple of days, I felt really great; like I'd made a serious enough impression on her that she was really trying to de-fog and think.

But then, she came back to being her "old" self again...rejecting the session with Steve, rejecting the MB Weekend...and it just seems like she's back to her usual comfortable self with the OM in tow.

Now I'm having serious doubts; about whether she'll attend the next session with Steve on Tuesday (as she'd said she would), and what Steve will say (probably wait a bit longer...), and I'm barely hanging on without going nuts waiting for this to develop, waiting for the next thing to happen.

Today I was having serious doubts about my Plan B, whether I'd be able to survivie it, whether it would have ANY effect on her...about the kids. Just the old "wanting to hurt her" coming out...I'm so very, very sad that my W of almost 21 years is in such a state of fog that she doesn't know what she's doing...or even worse, that she's been so cunning and focused, she knows EXACTLY what she's doing and a nasty surprise awaits me.

I just don't know. One of those doubtful periods that creeps up on me. 2 days now...

Also, I'm not really sure the Wellbutrin is working...I had to go back to 1 per day because the day I went to 2 I felt very badly. So the doc said go back to one for another week, then try for 2 again...I've been afraid to, I felt so bad the first time.

Having serious doubts; not feeling too sure of myself and the plan...

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I am to hold onto my hat until the next session with Steve on Tuesday.

3rd salvo; During that session, if she doesn't back out of attending, Steve will attempt to gain her committment to as much as he can; end the R, NC, measures for NC, moving forward. If that is not possible, then at least a committment to thinking about it and having a response for the NEXT session. 1 more week. The 4th and final salvo.

I told him that if with ANY of these approaches we see some SERIOUS progress (end it, NC, committ to ending it, committ to a decision, something tangible and verifiable) then I'd go along with the week-by-week thing. Otherwise, I'd go to Plan B at any of these stages where she clearly does not committ or waffles so much that we cannot determine what she's wanting/willing to do.

So...the show continues...and in the meantime, we've just passed the 11th month since DDay (7/26), and we're rapidly approaching a year since DDay (8/26), and our 21st Anniversary (Aug. 30)...dates that are not only important to me emotionally, but that also clearly indicate my perseverance, patience, and committment to this marriage. It's time.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

SpaceCase,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Having serious doubts; not feeling too sure of myself and the plan...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Been there, done that---and got out the other side just fine and with a marriage intact.

All these feelings are normal. Let Steve know how you're doing, it'll help him gauge your readiness for Plan B. My guess is that you'll be there by the end of the month.

What happened with the Wellbutrin?

Hang in there Spacecase. I've actually had almost 5 days now where I haven't had nightmares about my WW and the OM... and completed 2 days where my emotions were on a pretty even keel. All I can think is, "After 7 weeks, it's about freaking time to see some sort of normalization!"

I made huge advances when I realized my insignificance in my wife's life at this point in time. I mean, think about it.
- Did she have an A because of you? No.
- Did she stop the A because of you? No. Maybe.
- Is she going to rebuild the marriage because of you? No. Maybe.
- During the A, the things that happened between her and the OM, did they have anything to do with you? No.
- If you try really hard, is there anything you can control in this situation? No.

Everything you ever cared about, the underlying assumptions of everything... gone. I was out and about in public the other day and I saw this beautiful woman. Reminded me of my wife a lot in fact. As I looked at her, I thought, "Wouldn't it be cool if she loved me?" Then it hit me... my life, my actions, everything about me are totally unknown to her... why would she even care? That woman lives her life just like my WW... mostly oblivious of her actions on me. It's not about me anymore.

So, I can raise myself from unknowability by doing either really good things or really bad things... both would attract attention. Once I have that attention, what do I do next? Unless you have her attention, "what do I do next?" is a pointless question. You can only exert influence over yourself. Every day, and sometimes many times during each day, I choose honor and integrity. I doubt my wife notices, but in the meantime, I'll do things that she might notice. Hopefully she will. Hopefully, I'll capture her attention and do "next" those things that engender her love, trust, and respect.

Once I am in a position to win her love, trust, and respect... let's see if she steps up to the plate and tries to earn mine back.

SC:

I'm very sorry to hear you're down. I know we've talked about this many times, but I know I certainly need to be reminded (sometimes with that MB 2x4!), but I think this is part of the process - that when you have a positive, constructive convo with the WS, it's usually followed within a couple of days by a return to the status quo, which, in my case at least, means the rollercoaster goes into free-fall with me white-knuckling it the whole way down. AND, in MY CASE, knowing that's going to happen doesn't do much to lessen the impact at the bottom of the dive.

I don't know this, of course, but I suspect that if Steve isn't able to make headway with your W next session, he just might realize where you are and recommend you go to plan B.

I worry that he might do the same with me at some point in the next few sessions, and that he didn't during my first session because he simply doesn't know enough about my situation yet. Hopefully, that's just my worrywart self talking, though.

Please hang in there, SC. You're one of the best.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by K:
<strong>SpaceCase,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Having serious doubts; not feeling too sure of myself and the plan...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Been there, done that---and got out the other side just fine and with a marriage intact.

All these feelings are normal. Let Steve know how you're doing, it'll help him gauge your readiness for Plan B. My guess is that you'll be there by the end of the month.

What happened with the Wellbutrin?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I figured I wouldn't be able to keep the "high" I got after the confrontation for too long...it's just that the doubts start creeping in...tough. I'll talk to Steve about it Tuesday.

With the Wellbutrin; doc said take 1/day for a week, then go to 2/day 12 hours apart. So I did; took one before bed (10pm or so), then another about 8AM the next morning.
Well, about 11:30AM I statted feeling queasy, sleepy, confused...eneded up having to pull the car over and having my daughter drive home. And I just fell asleep...very nasty feeling!

So I asked the doc about it, and he said to go back to 1/day for another week, then try again. But I've been afraid to...still on 1/day.

space...
I am so sorry for your torment. The roller coaster ride gets so rough. I wish I could make it easier for you. After 21 years of marriage myself, I wonder how someone who loved me so much could be so cruel. I wonder if their guilt is so bad that they use cruelity to get us to kick them out so they will be punished. It is hard to know how the foggy mind works because we are in a fog too. We hold out all hope that our efforts will win them back.

I am so good some days knowing I will be happy again with or without him. Then, despondant about ever being able to survive without him.

I do feel for you. Your perserverance speeks chapters about the person you are. She will loose a great love. Listen to yourself, that inner self, that will never betray you. You'll know when the time is right.

Lyxa;

You're right. And most of the time I've been feeling like that; I've done what I could, it's time to move on and let her catch up if she chooses to.

But 2 things get in the way; 1st, my desire for her to catch up and see the light! I DO want her, I don't want to let her go unless I have to...even though it's been so long and she doesn't respond, I do love her still.

and 2nd, my feeling of guilt that I might leave her, and she'll crash and burn so badly that she'll be very, very hurt; perhaps irreparably. I would hurt very badly if that ended up happening to her. Even if I was long gone.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>SC:

I'm very sorry to hear you're down. I know we've talked about this many times, but I know I certainly need to be reminded (sometimes with that MB 2x4!), but I think this is part of the process - that when you have a positive, constructive convo with the WS, it's usually followed within a couple of days by a return to the status quo, which, in my case at least, means the rollercoaster goes into free-fall with me white-knuckling it the whole way down. AND, in MY CASE, knowing that's going to happen doesn't do much to lessen the impact at the bottom of the dive.

I don't know this, of course, but I suspect that if Steve isn't able to make headway with your W next session, he just might realize where you are and recommend you go to plan B.

I worry that he might do the same with me at some point in the next few sessions, and that he didn't during my first session because he simply doesn't know enough about my situation yet. Hopefully, that's just my worrywart self talking, though.

Please hang in there, SC. You're one of the best.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks, 2L; I know...it's funny how we end up having to prop each other up in turn. I know I'd have given up hope and who knows what else were it not for MB and all the support here...

Hey Space,

Try not to depend so much on your WW for your hapiness. Try to get your hapiness from within and enjoy the good things in your life.

What if the M does end? How would you feel then? Based upon what you have read, what you post, what you have done, you have poured your life into rebuilding your M. Try to find balance in your life again. This should not take up all of your waking hours in thought and in body and in soul, because if the M (your life's work now)does fail, it will cripple you.

I am worried about you and your health. God bless you and your family.

SC,

I have skimmed your story off & on, so I don't know everything. Sorry the MB wkend didn't work out. Listen to Steve from everything I have read he is a very wise man & following his plan will help you recover, no what.

A little tid bit. 3 yrs ago when my then WS, now STBX, was fence sitting (he was a champion fence sitter at 2+ yrs)we went to a Marriage Semiar in San Antino. Our counselor, who was very familar with MB, & of the same religous background as we were, thought my STBX really needed to hear Joe Beam speak. Now Joe Beam with Dr. W. Harley's persmission had developed a series of workshops based on HN/HN, but this seminar is called Love,sex & marriage or something like that. The main reason our counselor wanted us, but mainly STBX to go hear Joe Beam, was that he was a former minster of our religious believes. She thought STBX needed to hear someone who believed like we did/do but who was WS. Joe BEam is a powerful speaker, he is fuuny, the program was good, STBX seem to enjoy it. He wouldn't talk much about it but I thought he enjoyed it and learned something from it. Later I found out that ALL he got out of the weekend was how little I had done in our marriage. My long point here is sometimes, no matter what you do, what you try, and what the WS hears they are going to make it fit what they want it to.

Even though my STBX is now living with the OW (for a yr now) he has recently admitted to me that he does not know why he has said or did most the things he did. Instead of blaming me for everything, he now sees it as the stress he was under from work, before everything was my fault.

Good luck. Tie another knott in the end of your rope, you will be suprised at how long you can hang on.

<small>[ August 02, 2002, 02:03 PM: Message edited by: sing ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by RNROSCOE:
<strong>space...
I am so sorry for your torment. The roller coaster ride gets so rough. I wish I could make it easier for you. After 21 years of marriage myself, I wonder how someone who loved me so much could be so cruel. I wonder if their guilt is so bad that they use cruelity to get us to kick them out so they will be punished. It is hard to know how the foggy mind works because we are in a fog too. We hold out all hope that our efforts will win them back.

I am so good some days knowing I will be happy again with or without him. Then, despondant about ever being able to survive without him.

I do feel for you. Your perserverance speeks chapters about the person you are. She will loose a great love. Listen to yourself, that inner self, that will never betray you. You'll know when the time is right.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You made me cry, RNR...those very same feelings...I've had them over and over...what unbearable pain sometimes!

And perhaps even worse, she's convinced herself I'm out to hurt her, and it's part of her justification for the A, that I'm out to hurt her...so everything turns into that...that I'll never forgive, that I'll never get over it, that I'm only wanting to do all this to hurt her...how sad.

SC,

There is something you need to know. You can fight against anything with your W, but you cannot fight for your W.

What do I mean? I mean if your W was struggling or being attacked you would and should be willing to fight to the death for her. Because you are really fighting with her against something she doesn't want to happen. If she is unwilling to leave OM, if she is unwilling to fight to restore your marriage, you cannot fight this battle for her. The consequences of her decisions especially since she is not willing to fight for the marriage, are simply all hers.

SC, you are fighting for YOUR happiness, not hers. You need to realize that if she chooses to continue this path there is nothing you can do nor can you fight it.

Something to think about.

God Bless,

JL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by dreamland:
<strong>Hey Space,

Try not to depend so much on your WW for your hapiness. Try to get your hapiness from within and enjoy the good things in your life.

What if the M does end? How would you feel then? Based upon what you have read, what you post, what you have done, you have poured your life into rebuilding your M. Try to find balance in your life again. This should not take up all of your waking hours in thought and in body and in soul, because if the M (your life's work now)does fail, it will cripple you.

I am worried about you and your health. God bless you and your family.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It feels like I have to "finish" this (the A and M situation) before I can really do much of anything else. Like the choices and paths could be so very different depending on how it turns out, that I can't bring myself to taking any one of the paths for fear that it may turn out to be the wrong one...paralysis almost...very hard to break out of it.

You're right, Sing. The Lord works in misterious ways...many times what we want, feel we must have or do, turns out not to be the best thing, and out of an apparent failure or mis-step, come bigger and better things...I hope this is true here as it has been so many times in the past.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Just Learning:
<strong>SC,

There is something you need to know. You can fight against anything with your W, but you cannot fight for your W.

What do I mean? I mean if your W was struggling or being attacked you would and should be willing to fight to the death for her. Because you are really fighting with her against something she doesn't want to happen. If she is unwilling to leave OM, if she is unwilling to fight to restore your marriage, you cannot fight this battle for her. The consequences of her decisions especially since she is not willing to fight for the marriage, are simply all hers.

SC, you are fighting for YOUR happiness, not hers. You need to realize that if she chooses to continue this path there is nothing you can do nor can you fight it.

Something to think about.

God Bless,

JL</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">JL;
Intellectually I know this to be true. It's reality, it's...how it is. Period. I know it!

But those darned feelings...they creep up, they push the logic under, and they make us think and feel these things...and those feelings are so strong, we begin to question the intellect and the logic.

I imagine it's not unlike the feelings a WS has for the OM or viceversa...

It's not easy to fight them. Not easy at all...even with all the help and support here, even with Steve on board...this is hard!!!!

SpaceCase, while it is admirable the love you have for your W, YOU ARE NOT RESPONSABLE FOR HER ACTIONS. IF at some point in time you choose to leave her AND IF she crashes and burns, then it will be SHE that will be to blame. Sooner or later, ALL OF US have to face the consequences of our actions, and she is no exception with her past PA and present EA.

I agree with Dreamland that you should not let your happiness depend on your W. Doing so makes you no better than an addict craving his next fix. You've read Divorce Remedy and you even posted a few excerpts from the book, if my memory serves me correctly, and correct me if I am wrong but doesn't the author says to not talk about the A and go out and live your life without worrying about your S? Are you doing that?

Even though I have never subscribed in using women, there is something to be learned about the so called players that do. And perhaps the best thing they know is that the worst thing you can do to try to attract a woman is to put her on a pedestal - very few men AND women are worthy of it anyway - because then she becomes unreachable. Are you guilty of putting her on a pedestal?

Space,

What made you happy before you found out about the A? I bet your M had just a small part of it. Right? Kida funny how things are when you think you are about ready to lose a part of your life that makes (made) you happy. It makes a disproportionate affect on your idea of what happiness is about. The truth is the M is only a small part of your life and your happiness. When the A is over, the battles you are fighting in YOURSELF are not over. There is then recovery, etc. etc. When will your fight be over? It could never be over, even when the A is over or the M is over. You have to pull out of the fight. Do not put your whole being into trying to solve this problem. Put a proportionate time into solving this problem. Take care of yourself and your life.

Here try this quick quiz:

How much time do you spend at MB site?
add++
How much time do you spend thinking about solving the M problem?
add++
How much time do you spend reading and learning about how to solve the M problem?
equal=
??????

Now compare this to what you think your OTHER priorities in life are. Your children, your family, supporting the family, time for yourself, etc. Is the time you are spending on the other priorities proportionate? If not (IMHO), your life is out of balance. You are in your drive for a single goal have lost the meaning in life and hence you are becoming totally dependent on the outcome of your M.

Just my thoughts - however jaded by my own mess.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by TooMuchCoffeeMan:
<strong>SpaceCase, while it is admirable the love you have for your W, YOU ARE NOT RESPONSABLE FOR HER ACTIONS. IF at some point in time you choose to leave her AND IF she crashes and burns, then it will be SHE that will be to blame. Sooner or later, ALL OF US have to face the consequences of our actions, and she is no exception with her past PA and present EA.

I agree with Dreamland that you should not let your happiness depend on your W. Doing so makes you no better than an addict craving his next fix. You've read Divorce Remedy and you even posted a few excerpts from the book, if my memory serves me correctly, and correct me if I am wrong but doesn't the author says to not talk about the A and go out and live your life without worrying about your S? Are you doing that?

Even though I have never subscribed in using women, there is something to be learned about the so called players that do. And perhaps the best thing they know is that the worst thing you can do to try to attract a woman is to put her on a pedestal - very few men AND women are worthy of it anyway - because then she becomes unreachable. Are you guilty of putting her on a pedestal?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are absolutely correct, TMCM. I can't argue agains the same logic I espouse...and believe in. It's just hard to let the one you love, have loved for the better part of your life, take a turn that you know will lead to disaster, so it's the natural instinct of a fater, parent, husband, to not let that happen...that's all. I know she's responsible, I know it's her doing, I know all that. But it's just like my kid who got a ticket for driving w/o lights at 2:30AM...had to go to court with him to help him not lose his licence. Did he do it? yes. Is he responsible? yes. Does that mean I shouldn't try to help him?

And you're right about not making the A the center of my life, but unfortunately, it is. It controls a large part of my life, thoughts and time. Have been trying not to let it, but it does. I'm working on this, I really am.

And it's not because I've put her on a pedestal. She's...my wife, the mother of my children, was a dear friend, her brothers and sisters are my brothers and sisters, her mother is like mine...there's a lot of years and emotional investment in the R, in the person, in their lives. It's not as simple as erasing them from your heart.

Perhaps it IS easier when we allow anger to take over at first, when we just want to dump them, throw them out...but it would always come back, wouldn't it?

DL;
Don't I know it! I know...I've allowed this to consume my time, energy, efforts way beyond its proportion.

I'm not sure why, and I'm not sure why I can't let go of it as much as I should. I know I have to, I know I will, I know I've come far enough to where I must resolve this one way or the other. But somehow, I just have not been able to make many plans beyond this because so much depends on the outcome. My plans will be very different with both possible outcomes...and it's hard to put either one of them in motion without knowing...

Space,

I know what you mean. I wish I can take my own advise here. I spend all day here online trying to learn and trying to find a way to feel better about where I am, what to do next, and what I am doing wrong, and helping others in the same mess I am in. When I have time by myself, I read books or go online again. I have to set my boundaries with how I spend my time the same way we set our boundaries with other things in life.

For me, it is more of a motivation issue. The only thing I am motivated to do now is work on my marriage. I have little motivation for anything else.

I guess I need to remember what the Bible says "whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things." I believe thinking about all of this all of the time changes our perception of reality and changes our focus. I need to try to think about other things.