</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by davepr:
<strong>GC, try backing off more, become more distant again. I am convienced that his A is not going to last but I can't promise you that he will not run back to her at this point in time.. Sometimes it takes the WS a few false starts to figure things out, it is not fair, you don't deserve this from him, and I know it hurts like hell! He sounds like he is very confused, if he runs back to OW
now, I am sure that within a very short period of time it will be over with OW again. Alot of times this is how these A end, the WS waffels back and forth. If he does go back again, I think it is time for a full Plan B. I know you will be angry and may want to give up, but try not to make any decisions for a couple of weeks.

What happened? I thought the plan was for him to spend a few weeks at friends house to clear his head? Try not to get drawn into his roller coaster of emotions, and please try to not LBs.
Hang in there.... if he does go back,things are only going to be worse with him and OW, they are on a downward spiral and he will crash sooner or later.

I know this is so hard, you have worked so hard for getting your marriage back. Please hang in there... take care dave</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I will definitely back off more, I think that I was getting sucked in again.
All that I can say is that I would love to be a fly on the wall tomorrow when she gets back and see that almost everything is gone. (Except maybe I would fly away when the s**t hits the fan so I don't get splattered).

the "plan" was for him to do that, move completely out, he has been doing huge carloads at a time, he has been staying there while she is gone taking care of the pets until she gets back tomorrow. I guess I will have to see how tomorrow goes, huh?

I'm a little calmer right now, I just want off this roller coaster ride. Maybe I should take my own advice, I feel weak right now, but it takes a lot of strength and faith in God to go through this.

One question GC; why are you letting him back in without some clear and established actions on his part?

For Example:
End the R
NC Letter
Measures to ensure NC
Disclosure (Cell/CCards/Etc.)
Commit to MCing
Let him know what's negotiable and what isn't
you know the drill...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Spacecase:
<strong>One question GC; why are you letting him back in without some clear and established actions on his part?

For Example:
End the R
NC Letter
Measures to ensure NC
Disclosure (Cell/CCards/Etc.)
Commit to MCing
Let him know what's negotiable and what isn't
you know the drill...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have discussed it with him that the R will have to end completely and absolutely no contact (he said, yes, he knows that, I haven't asked him to deliver the NC letter yet. I am going to have to see how tomorrow plays out, but yes definitely all the above.

Quick question SC: Have you ever asked your wife to get tested for STD's or have asked Steve opinion on this approach?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I have discussed it with him that the R will have to end completely and absolutely no contact (he said, yes, he knows that, I haven't asked him to deliver the NC letter yet. I am going to have to see how tomorrow plays out, but yes definitely all the above. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess my point is not necessarily all of the above, but a serious agreement on those you choose, rather than a vague committment. "Yes, I know that" doesn't sound like "I will do that by Tues. 8/XX", In fact, that date SHOULD be BEFORE he moves in; not after.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Quick question SC: Have you ever asked your wife to get tested for STD's or have asked Steve opinion on this approach?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, but my case is a bit different. I have no reason to believe they ever had sex, as my W's OM is a Federal Prisoner...

But by all means, if you feel this could be an issue, he should be willing to submit to that. This could be one of the "non-negotiable" items on the list.

Remember; his attitude should be <strong>"I will do whatever it takes to save our marriage"</strong> or VERY close to that. So you have to set the rules and boundaries. Of course, if you go too far, or start "abusing" that prerogative, then it may get nasty, but things that are within reason, by all means.

As we speak, I'm working on a SHORT list of what it'll take for ME to go back home to my WW...I'll share it when I have it closer to finished. Short being the operative word, you don't want to turn this into a torture chamber where they have to jump thru every hoop in the world. Just the basics at first, the bare minimum you can live with, and later, committments to certain more intangible things (Cing, POJA, Etc.). JMHO, of course.

GC; here's a first draft of my list. Maybe this will help you make your list...

<strong>Must Have's (How would you feel about..?)</strong>
• Demonstrated End of R with OM
• Measures to ensure NC/Rules for attempted contact (Details to be negotiated w/Steve)
• Commitment to Radical Honesty
• Full Disclosure, End, and Access to; communications, interaction, characters
• Specific actions to re-build trust (Details to be negotiated w/Steve)
• Commitment to on-going work on M issues w/Steve and IC

<strong>Nice to Have's</strong>
• OM knows it's over and rebuilding M – NC letter
• OM’s family knows it’s over / NC
• Other Characters know it’s over / NC
• Letter to Warden ending Communications
• Friends / SIL who were lied to told the truth
• Commitment to on-going and POJA’d implementation of Principles
• Tell me the real story
• Answer my questions about this
• Demonstrate loyalty to me & family above loyalty to OM

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Spacecase:
<strong>GC; here's a first draft of my list. Maybe this will help you make your list...

<strong>Must Have's (How would you feel about..?)</strong>
• Demonstrated End of R with OM
• Measures to ensure NC/Rules for attempted contact (Details to be negotiated w/Steve)
• Commitment to Radical Honesty
• Full Disclosure, End, and Access to; communications, interaction, characters
• Specific actions to re-build trust (Details to be negotiated w/Steve)
• Commitment to on-going work on M issues w/Steve and IC

<strong>Nice to Have's</strong>
• OM knows it's over and rebuilding M – NC letter
• OM’s family knows it’s over / NC
• Other Characters know it’s over / NC
• Letter to Warden ending Communications
• Friends / SIL who were lied to told the truth
• Commitment to on-going and POJA’d implementation of Principles
• Tell me the real story
• Answer my questions about this
• Demonstrate loyalty to me & family above loyalty to OM</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">wow, that sounds great, now how to approach that to a WS is the question.

I just tried to use the online form to schedule an appt with Steve, must be down or something,everytime I hit submit it gives an error. I have had one session with Steve a few weeks ago, Steve told me to ask WH to schedule, I asked him to and give him the info , he said he would but never did.

Do you think that it would be too pushy to ask WH again to call Steve just kinda like "if you need someone to talk to that understands what you are going through, here's the info, etc."

did you have ask your WW more than once, if you did, how did you ask again?

WH brought over a carload this morning again, a leather chair that he took apart to fit in his car, a stereo, and a couple of other things. He was in a hurry on the way to work, he didn't talk much and I was getting ready for work.

hi, sorry it is so hard.. withdrawl is hard.. I got h back after ow number one and lost him to tough love tactics... and other problems... sf helped in the first case... a lot! so go for it! make him way more happy than he can ever imagine if he gives you the chance- nxt time he has plans, I would go.... maybe plans or whatever..> GO! jmhumble opinion.. sometimes the y need to be shown they are wanted.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> good luck, honey

OK, just emailed WH to just come out and ask him if he was going to get the rest of his stuff tonight.
He replied back and said that he was staying with one of his friends close to his work (he has meetings that last late on Wed) and was going to make arrangements to get the rest of the stuff when she is not there.

So I emailed back and just point blank asked, "Are you going to tell her its over between you two" I'll wait for his response.

WH's response to my email questioning if he told OW it was over:

"yeah, we both agree that it is over, that does not make it any easier, I told
you it was going to be hard on me, so just be patient and we will see what
happens."

Should I ask what he told her? If he said he was going to work on his marriage?

Is now the time I should give my conditions that he needs to meet, how do I do that without looking "bossy"

Where do I go from here???

<small>[ August 14, 2002, 11:17 AM: Message edited by: going_crazy ]</small>

YOu said he would be living with friends? So don't give him the conditions yet. On the other hand, don't seem too eager to have him move back in.

He seems to still be very confused, he is asking for space so I would give it to him and not make any demands right now. Wait for him to ask to move back home, to tell you that the A is over forever, that he has learned his lession, that he wants to put 110% into saving your marriage, then you can tell him under what conditions you are willing to go forward. Let him come to you, let him make the next steps, go back to your modified Plan B, that seems to work the best for you/him.
Dave

Thanks for the advice,espoir and davepr

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by davepr:
<strong>He seems to still be very confused, he is asking for space so I would give it to him and not make any demands right now. Wait for him to ask to move back home, to tell you that the A is over forever, that he has learned his lession, that he wants to put 110% into saving your marriage, then you can tell him under what conditions you are willing to go forward. Let him come to you, let him make the next steps, go back to your modified Plan B, that seems to work the best for you/him.
Dave</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ok, that's what I will do, should I not contact him until he contacts me?

Also, should I respond to his email just to acknowledge I rec'd it, and say something about respecting his request for him to sort out his feelings or just leave it at that. If he feels the need to elaborate on the email, he will come to me first?

I agree with the others, let him come to you. Any contact should be initiated by him. A polite, brief response is all you need to give him. That is the way I'd deal with all forms of contact. Once he says he wants to move home again, then I'd tell him he had to commit to a few things.

Personally, I would not even respond, just back off and see what happens. Let him make the next step forward, until such time modified Plan B. It seems like once you start tying to move things foward, he back offs again.. so let him be the one to move foward. In the last 18 months it appear to me that you make your greatest strides after you started a modified Plan B so I would stick with that. Do you think that is true? If so, stick with it.
Hang in there,
Dave

thanks mgm and davepr, back to modified plan B, I won't even go to Plan A until he says "I want to come home", it will be a full Plan A, along with the NC letter as recommended in the SAA book.

I'm not going to respond to his email, becauses he knows I will, turn my little half circle around and do another 180. ( I think I just started a circle on my roller coaster and hanging upside down)!!!

Keep us updated....

hi gc, my heart is going out to you... be patient... be calm... play it cool, play it hard to get... you can do it- I love it that you are not answering the email... boy do they just take advantage of you when you are too there and too loving and too ready... must be some kind of ws problem where they are just too ready to dump the ones who love them too much, if we are hard to get , demanding and have some expectations... not ready to lie down an d be walked on.. then I think we get more respect...

I messed up today and called the ws, well I really got a tongue lashing... he is hurting me so much all of this day with the mean words... I just talked to an alanon friend... who sd just because they say it does not make it true.

Hugs, and love to you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> You are a wonderful child of God , deserving and ready to receive all that GOd wants us to have. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

thanks, HONEY

Davepr: I will keep ya posted, as the saga goes on!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Honey:
<strong>hi gc, my heart is going out to you... be patient... be calm... play it cool, play it hard to get... you can do it- I love it that you are not answering the email... boy do they just take advantage of you when you are too there and too loving and too ready... must be some kind of ws problem where they are just too ready to dump the ones who love them too much, if we are hard to get , demanding and have some expectations... not ready to lie down an d be walked on.. then I think we get more respect...

I messed up today and called the ws, well I really got a tongue lashing... he is hurting me so much all of this day with the mean words... I just talked to an alanon friend... who sd just because they say it does not make it true.

Hugs, and love to you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> You are a wonderful child of God , deserving and ready to receive all that GOd wants us to have. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

thanks, HONEY</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">thats right honey, those are his feelings not yours!

GC; here's my take on this, and this is MHO;

You need to present yourself to the WS as unavailable, a prize to be won in exchange for repentance for what he did.

Do not offer or allow SF, do not treat him like a king, do not beg him or even ask him to come home. Let him know that if he's truly sorry about what happened, and he wasnts to come home, there are conditions he must meet in order for you to ALLOW him to come back and work this out.

That's not so hard; "H, you have left me for another woman and broken my heart, I cannot allow you back unless you show me that you are committed to me, and ONLY me."

Then, when he asks how, what he has to do, you have your list...End the A, NC letter, Commit to MC with Steve, whatever YOU feel YOU need so you can sleep at night. So you can allow him another opportunity.

BUT, you need to be strong! Strong enough to tell him; "No, you cannot return home. I will not have you back until you are SURE. When you are SURE, give me a call, until then, see ya!"

I left home a week ago. I have not called my W ONCE! And I won't. Ever. (Even that day I was breaking down, in pieces.) She knows now that I have moved on, or I'm getting ready to, and if she wants to try to work it out, she knows what she has to do...I stopped playing her game.

She has called me; for stuff she wants/needs/the kids, but I haven't, and won't.

<small>[ August 14, 2002, 05:14 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>