I am curious if anyone has experience/advice in how long one should stay in plan A after the A has ended but the wayward spouse has not recommitted to the marriage or working on the marriage.

In my case, I have been doing a pretty good plan A since late March and the A ended in late May/early June. I recently was able to confirm that the A did end. My WH was going through a pretty ugly depression/withdrawal in June and part of July.

In July we started spending more time together and having a good time together. However, my WH still says he does not love me. He says I am his best friend and he cannot imagine me not in his life, but that he does not have hope that he will regain his in love feelings for me.

update

This past weekend was especially difficult because we went on a great hike and he was able to open up more about the A and why it ended. He also told me that he did not feel accepted by me prior to the A. It took everything I had not to LB and say "I don't think I could be more accepting than I am now after hearing about an A and internet pornography", but instead I said I was trying to be more accepting and recognized that things were difficult pre-A.

He went on to say that he has noticed my positive changes and is intimidated by the fact that despite what he has done, I have been able to move forward and make positive changes and he feels stuck in a rut.

I look back on the last several months and am encouraged by the progress we have made from the ongoing A, lovebusting, and inability to spend time together to the point where we are now where we can spend time together. However, he feels compelled to tell me every time we see eachother that he is struggling and is not in love with me. That is discouraging.

Does anyone have any advice/any experience with how long a plan A should continue post A without some positive indication from the formlerly wayward spouse that they want to try and repair the marriage?

<small>[ August 14, 2002, 10:12 PM: Message edited by: unsureheart ]</small>

I think more than "how long" the question should be "what to do". And in your case, it sounds like you could use a dose of MB "falling in love, staying in love".

Has your H embraced MB? Have you done ENQ and LBQs? Has he read the books? Perhaps an MB Weekend? Perhaps a few sessions with Steve?

I believe that if the A is over, and he truly wants to rebuild, this would be very helpful. Otherwise, the "how long" in Plan A could be forever...and it should be forever, but it should be from both sides, not only from you!

Thanks SC -- I really value your opinion and advice/you have been through so much.

I absolutely agree that plan A should be forever. But, my WH will not recommit in any way/move home. He read His Needs/Her Needs and thinks its not useful. He still believes that romantic love is just something you feel/not something that you achieve by working at it. I cannot get him to talk to the Harleys or go to any kind of counseling.

I will keep working on my plan A and believing that my demonstrations of love, care and honesty will help him see that people can change and that staying in love takes an effort on the part of both spouses. He just doesn't believe it and is waiting for that magic of what it was like when we first met to reappear for him. He's in some kind of fog still and I know that he still misses his relationship with the OW (although he has acknowledged that it was probably a fantasy/no reality relationship).

I can't try and educate him because he really resists. I guess I just have to hope that by continuing to focus on changing me and showing him the love I have for him that he will see that there is hope to regain love. He knows that I recognize what I did not do well in our marriage pre-A and that I have made significant improvements.

At some point, though, I do believe he has to make some kind of decision. I think maybe I need to schedule another session with Jennifer H. as our last conversation was about ending the A/possibly moving to plan B. I'm just confused because the A has ended and he absolutely does not want to move home (despite what he told me in June about wanting to move home -- fits with your statement SC that it's the actions not the words).

unsureheart,

I'm hoping your signature lines are out of date - Does your H still work with the OM??????

If so, WHY???

If he still does work with her, I'm sure this would be the main source of confusion. When he sees her daily or from time to time, I'm sure this is a constant re-kindling of the A!!!

Can you please clarify???

MITT

Yes, most unfortunately, he does still work with the OW <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

He will not change jobs, as it is part of his larger self-esteem issue. I have been very clear that I do not understand how there will be any hope for us while they still work together. They work in a very small office (6 people) and he is her boss. They see eachother every day.

Hi Unsureheart,

two ideas here: could it be that he doesnt let you close to his heart, because if he would, he would feel guilty and miserable? you mention self-esteem; maybe he sees himself losing some of his ego if he admits he was wrong? if that's the case then plan A is still cool.
the other issue is of course that he sees OW every day. it must be terrible for you to focus on plan A under these circumstances! as you know from my posts, I decided I can't tolerate that (in my case - email/phone contact) from my WS anymore - it just kills me.

How often do you talk about him & OW separating (like in not working anymore together)? do you state clearly that you can't have that (as calmly as possible, without LBing)? You have to sort this one out first, definately.

As a next step, I would (apart from continuing plan A) think of a specific plan, how & when you will be raising this subject & tell him that either he or OW gotta leave from work.

Unsure,

I was hoping it was an error in your signature line about still working with the OW.

I know in our circumstance, OM was a friend only two blocks away. I don't know how a BS could handle WS working with the OP!!!

If you are in a good Plan A, and it sounds like you are he should come around in time! It sounds like he is almost there BUT I have to admit the OW is probably throwing him off track whether it is intentional or unintentional. Just him having to see her on a daily basis could be throwing him off let alone any other conversation, body language, etc. that might be occuring.

My bet is if you could convince him to change jobs or dismiss her and sever ANY contact, I'd say you will see him come around after another withdrawl period. Some how you have to get him to get out of where she is at because in all probability, it is destroying your chances of recovery.

As far as how long Plan A should last, it's already been said, it is a life long commitment. How long it takes? I dont't really know if there is an answer for this one as every A is different. In our case, it seemed to take about 3 months of slow and gradual return before it was enough to notice.

Work on the job thing. It's not a good scenario and this is probably why he is "fence sitting."

MITT

Thank MITT and Nick--

I really do not know what to do. Asking him to leave his job is a huge LB right now. He cannot fire OW as she could definitely file a sexual harrassment lawsuit (he is her boss and he pursued her and she is much younger). Frankly I am appalled at his organization because I know that the company knows about the A and has done NOTHING about it. He gave her a promotion during the A <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> which I know is an issue for other employees there. He is the boss in this state and his superiors are in another state/national headquarters.

When I write this out I really wonder what I still see in my WH (it's all so objectionable to me from both a personal and professional standpoint).

The OW apparently was the one to finally end things. He did try and first but kept getting back into the A with her. She got fed up with his inability to make a decision. While I believe she has not the best judgement for getting into an A with her boss (and I have to work with them/we are in the same field/have regular meetings together <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ), I give her some limited credit for ending the A.

However, I personally do not see how to make this situation workable when they see eachother pretty much every day. My fantasy is that she will leave, but on the other hand (my judgmental side is definitely coming out) why should she pay all of the consequences and none for him?

I feel stuck right now. I don't know which is worse -- having the A ongoing or this weird limbo world where he can't quite let go because he sees her every day. I know it is some form of addiction because he said to me yesterday that he cannot understand all of this as he finds me physically more attractive, more intelligent, strong, creative, etc. etc. but she is more "soulful". What the heck does that mean?

"but she is more "soulful". "

More WS "in the fog" pyscho babble !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't pay any attention to what he says at this point as it's not real...

Another thought just crossed my mind (and another WS ploy). Could your H be trying to get you to leave the M so he does not feel any guilt or fault in the failure?

MITT

WOW unsureheart! Could we have conversations or what! My h is the OW boss in a very small company (20 people, but only 6 in the office). He has been fence-sitting since d-day (4/26/02), says he can not fire her. She is too valuable to the company and could file a lawsuit. She and I planned all company parties and were pretty good friends. So do I know what you are going thru right now having your WS see the OP EVERY DAY, H@LL yes! I wonder if there is little looks or when he has to work late, I wonder.... I want you to know that I firmly beleive that a M can not progress to recovery with ANY contact between WS and OP. So my H and I are moving Sept.1 to Utah (that is about 29 hrs. away), but these past four months and the one left to go are killing me!!! He has made little progressions. He calls me two to five times a day, just to say HI. He calls to invite me to lunch and to let me know when he will be home. So try to look for the small things, I used to think these were insignificant. Now I see that put all together, they might be leading to de-fogged! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Keep your chin up! Take Care!

Thanks MITT and pq

MITT -- At one point I did think that he was trying to get me to end the M so that he could run off into the sunset (or is that cesspool?) guilt free. I don't think that anymore as I asked him point blank prior to d-day and after d-day (prior to finding MB) "Do you want a divorce because the way you are treating me indicates that you do. If that's the case then I am so at the end of my rope that I will give you the most simple divorce and you can tell everyone it's my fault. Let's just end this because you are being so mean." I had put up with months of him just being downright awful. Despite finding out about the A and struggling through this, things are actually better now than they were at this time last year. Last year I did not know what had happened to my H, but he was cruel. I thought I was pregnant and he got MAD at me and left the house for several hours (this is after years of his telling me he wanted children). I've never cried so hard in my life.

Now we talk and he is kinder and more like the man I thought I had married. Lately I have had more time with him than I have in years (he works many, many hours and did so before the A). For the first time in our married life he missed a very important work related meeting to go on a last minute vacation with me. I was stunned to say the least.

pq -- Thanks for the support. I wish we were moving. Alaska wouldn't be far enough away from all this. I think every day about quitting my job. A job I worked very hard to get and enjoy, but it is just so hard to do knowing that I have to hear her name and work with the two of them.

I know that some of what comes out of his mouth is still alien fog, but it still hurts. I'm venting a lot here tonight so that when he calls I'm not a blubbering mess.

unsure,

Again I am very aware what you are going through in agony and his indecisiveness. Prior to recovery I had such mean things said and done to me that I sometimes I wonder a year later, did I make the right decision to stay? It is very hard.

Something struck me in what you just wrote, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Now we talk and he is kinder and more like the man I thought I had married. Lately I have had more time with him than I have in years (he works many, many hours and did so before the A). For the first time in our married life he missed a very important work related meeting to go on a last minute vacation with me."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What I hear you saying is that Plan A is working for you! Keep up the good (but hard) work!!! It is without a doubt a "thankless" effort

Don't forget that Plan A is about protecting each other (protecting each other's feelings) and it sounds like your both doing an excellant job of that also. You're right, you need your fantasy to come true (that she would leave) and I'll think you'll see the spaceship will return your husband within a very short period.

I thought I remember you saying he would not participate here at MB. MY WW would not either. But one of the things that I did was to print recovery posts similar to ours and some answers to posts and ask her to read them (most times she would). One of the main points I always tried to make to her was that "you're not in this alone, many are going through the exact same scenarios and that what you have in all probability is not special at all." I always tried to get through on the basis that odds are, they would never make it - "Once the heat dies down..." The reason I say this is he feels the OW is this "soulful" person. The hard part is getting him out of the fog just long enough for him to see that. Eventually some words you say to him will just click and you'll see the light bulb go on. I hope this happens for you soon.

Keep up the Plan A because I think it is working. Who knows, maybe he really is in denial - denial that you are is true soulmate!!!

unsureheart - The first thing I want to say is that anyone who uses unconditional statements and universalities to say that a M cannot recover if there is continued contact with OP flat out doesn't know what they are talking about. There are several examples on these boards right now and several that don't post anymore.

With that said, I agree with those who told you to continue "Plan A". Many of us have adopted a "Plan A for life" stratagem because the basics of Plan A are ways that we should treat everyone all of the time. I guess it depends on which Plan A you are doing. Are you doing the one where you truly change yourself or are you doing the one that is just used to get your H back?? If it's the latter, be prepared for more problems in your marriage, either now or years down the road.

A true Plan A means that you are making fundamental changes in how you interact with your spouse and others. A truly successful Plan A means these changes are permanent, whether or not your marriage recovers....Just something to think about.

Now where you are at today....The hardest part of possible recovery for a BS is dealing with impatience. WSs come out of the fog and recommit on their own schedules even when it's driven completely by what they want.

You are only a tad more than six months from D-day, the affair is over, and you H at least discusses the possibility of moving back. You are ahead of at least half the posters here. You are in a much better position than you realize.

Your H says he is confused and his feelings for you are uncertain. This is pretty normal. It's also the perfect time to put your Plan A in "high gear". Start showing him your potential, basically make him fall in love with you all over again.

Try to shrug off the comments he makes about "struggling" and not "being in love with you". Coming out of an affair, many WS need time to re-discover what love truly is. That it is not the exciting, hormone-filled existence of the affair, but that it is being with your "best friend", someone that you "cannot imagine having in your life".

He has recognized the positive changes you have made. Again I say you are in a good spot. Remember that it took years for your marriage to get to the point where the affair occurred. It's certainly going to take more than six months to improve it beyond where it was.

You are doing quite well. Just "Plan A" the heck out of him, don't initiate lots of "R" talks and just try to love him and have fun. If he is worthy of you, he will come around...

Thanks MITT and Heartpain --

I need to hear those words of encouragement. Plan A has been a good thing for me in terms of making changes and bringing back some good things in my life that I had let slide such as female friendships, running, and remembering to compliment my WH and encourage him. Despite the A, I actually feel better about myself than I have in a long time. As you noted, I am being impatient. I have good days and bad and yesterday was a particularly bad one as my WH was travelling for work for several days (a big trigger because that's often how he and OW got together).

I am often humbled by the stories I read here and others' situations and recognize that I am very fortunate that the A has even ended.

Hey Heartpain,


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The first thing I want to say is that anyone who uses unconditional statements and universalities to say that a M cannot recover if there is continued contact with OP flat out doesn't know what they are talking about. There are several examples on these boards right now and several that don't post anymore.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Were you trying to slam on me for encouraging her to have her H have no contact? Have you read SAA? That is one of the basic principles. Did you know that you are on Dr. Harley's website? What kind of jerk are you to slam someone else's opinion? I guess I should say sorry that I even posted since I am not an EXPERT like you!

pq -- I appreciate the advice from everyone here. You are right that SAA says no contact is the ideal way (almost the only way) to reach recovery. I think what heartpain was trying to say was that there are some people that have successfully recovered even while their wayward spouse still works with OW/OM.

I guess I take all of this (SAA and the experience of others) to mean that the best way to do this is to have no contact, but that it might be possible to get there while still in contact (but very, very difficult). I think it's Leilani and Lor that have reached recovery under these extremely adverse conditions.

I envy you moving away from the OW -- although it must be tough to be going through a move on top of everything else.

Hey Unsureheart!

I just did not appreciate his condesending tone. I hope that you and your H can have recovery with you both keeping your jobs. I just wanted you to know HOW MUCH I feel your pain. Sorry about the angry vent. I just don't post very often, and I guess I should just keep my mouth shut. Reading everyone's stories is a lot of help for me. I just felt complelled by our similar situations to speak up. I won't again.

Hey pq - Sorry you've got your undies in a wad over this. Yes, I know whose board I'm on, after all, I've been here off and on over three years. Yes, I've read SAA. Now a question for you. Did you read each word I wrote? "...say that a M cannot recover if there is continued contact with OP..." Have you had any counseling? One of the first things a good therapist will tell you is to eliminate "universal" statements, i.e., those with "never" or "always" or "only" or "must".

I wasn't picking on you, but when these "no contact" discussions come up, inevitably someone will pipe in and say that it is hopeless unless contact is completely and forever cut off. I just wanted to make sure that this was pre-empted. I will be the first in line to agree that "no contact" is by far the best and most effective way to go. However, if the BS makes "no contact" a condition of staying in the marriage, they may be cutting off their nose to spite their face. "No contact" is second to continuing the affair in causing pain to the people who post here. A couple of years ago we had a spirited discussion about this and the point was made(I don't know if I said it or someone else) that in many, many cases, insisting or requiring a "no contact" commitment of the WS who wasn't ready, was a guarantee of additional pain and heartache for the BS. There are examples of this premise right now on the boards over the last two days. "No contact" will only work when the WS is ready, period.

If the BS makes contact with the OP a "deal-breaker" before the WS is emotionally and mentally ready, they might as well file for the divorce or reconcile themselves to months and months of lies, broken promises and heartache..

If it is only "your opinion" that "no contact" is necessary, then you are eligible to have that opinion disagreed with. What I stated was not opinion, but fact. There have been many posters here who have recovered their marriages where "no contact" was not possible. It is definitely harder, but not impossible.

I have nothing against you, personally, please be aware of that. I am paranoid about BS's pushing too hard, asking too much of the WS before they're ready. If I ever give questionable advice, I hope you will be there to straighten me out. Trying to reconcile a marriage is difficult, if not impossible if the BS goes down the wrong road for too long.

BTW, we are recovering from my WW's affair. She will be the first to tell you that had I made continued contact a "deal-breaker" from the beginning, she would not be here today.

In closing, I offer apologies for any personal insult I've caused you. If you choose not to post again, that is your own personal decision and not my responsibility. I challenge you to remember(or just understand as you haven't been here long) that I've gone thru every bit as much pain and suffering as you and just want to try to keep someone else from repeating my pain and even my mistakes. Peace.

P.S. Actually, I should have said we have recovered from the A and have moved on to the normal challenges of married life.

<small>[ August 06, 2002, 06:35 PM: Message edited by: Heartpain ]</small>

pq -- Is your story anywhere on this forum so that I can read it? I would hope you would keep posting -- it really has helped me to both read and to post. I didn't post much to others in the beginning, but when I found others in a similar situation it helped quite a bit. Please read AND post.

unsureheart,

I see in checking your thread you've gotten some excellant advice so far.

I just wanted to see how you're doing tonight. I hope your feeling better about yourself and the M...

MITT

<small>[ August 06, 2002, 06:49 PM: Message edited by: MakingItThruThis ]</small>