</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lady_In_Red:
<strong>Dear Spacecase,

Just to chime in with a hug (((Spacecase)))).

That JL really has a way with words. I learn so much from him! He has got it nailed!

Just want to let you know will be praying for you this week.

LIR</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey, LIR! long time no see...thanks for coming by.
Yes, JL definitely has a knack for this!

After a few hours of the "silent treatment", she seemed to be teary-eyed and thoughtful...

I made dinner for us, was very nice, although not loving and touchy-feely, then helped her with some letters for work.

When we went to bed, she was sad, teary-eyed, I put my hand out and stroked her head. She grabbed it and held it tight, pulled it down and kissed it, then pulled me towards her...gave me a small kiss, said goodnight and wished me happy dreams.

This morning she woke me up, apologized for making noise. Then when I was having coffee downstairs, she came over, put her arm around me and gave me a small kiss...

she has not said a word about anything. Hasn't asked me where I'm going, whether I've talked to the kids, what we're going to do about x,y and z...nothing.

This is odd. I am wondering whether I should say something like "I know you don't believe this right now, but I'm doing what I'm doing BECAUSE I love you. One day you'll realize that."

But then again, maybe it's better to just leave her with what I left her with yesterday "I don't know what I'm going to do, but I need to go to think about it. I can't decide anything right now"
Except is seems kind of cruel...it pains me to hurt her...pains me deeply. Wish I could console her.

<small>[ August 07, 2002, 08:24 AM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

she surely makes all the right noises.... but is it for real? is it that reality has sunk in finally, or, is it just another manipulation so she gets all the candy?

what did Steve say - definatly go to plan B or give her a chance?

in any case, what's the accepted wisdom here, when do you move out of plan B anyway?

<small>[ August 07, 2002, 09:30 AM: Message edited by: Nick123 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Nick123:
<strong>she surely makes all the right noises.... but is it for real? is it that reality has sunk in finally, or, is it just another manipulation so she gets all the candy?

what did Steve say - definatly go to plan B or give her a chance?

in any case, what's the accepted wisdom here, when do you move out of plan B anyway?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The right things? I don't think so...the time for "saying the right things" is over. It's time for the actions to speak...all the "right things" have turned out to be fiction in the past.

There's no turning back, no chances here. Plan B is on. When do we move out of plan B? when she is ready to committ to our M, ends the R, ensures NC, and convinces me that she wants the marriage badly enough to "do whatever it takes" to save it.

"I'm doing what I'm doing BECAUSE I love you" ...

Space .... I strongly suggest that you use loving NON-verbal communication up until your departure.

.... let her THINK with her OWN VOICE ....

She should be uncomfortable ... THAT's the point ! Her choices have led her to this discomfort .... and she NEEDS to fully feel the impact of losing you ... FULLY FEEL .... You are not hurting her. This is consequence time.

Be strong. You love her like a crazy person ... we know that AND SO DOES SHE !!!!!!!!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> Pepper

Leave her to her consequences. Don't assure her of your love...don't try to make it all better. You can't. This is NECESSARY.

I often think of WS's in the same aspect as a child. They act like 4 year olds...they demand, they're selfish and they're needy. Being a mother of a 4 year old, I know DARN WELL that it's more important for me to stand firm to the boundries I've set, than it is to assure my son is always happy. I give him love...but he also gets rules. Not bendable ones...strong, steadfast, no nonsense, this is the way it is. It works with children...it also works with WS's.

I think you are far far far from "over" as you believe. Let the reality shake her tree...and stand strong. Actions...not words...will make the difference.

P.S. .... She is about to discover the depth of her love for you!!!! AND this will cause her great pain .... because she's hurt the one she loves. She is going to hurt BIG TIME! (Think of Tutter)

Do not meddle with this pain .... she has to figure this out. Love hurts baby. Love digs deep. There will be another struggle of her forgiving herself .... do not meddle.

You love her enough NOT TO interfere with her pain ... don't you? It must be processed by her. She is a separate individual .... try to avoid fusion of your pain with hers. That will stunt recovery.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Thanks Pep/H4F...you're right...I know you are...it's just SO hard NOT to reassure her...I will stop...I will let her figure it out on her own.

I know it's not over...by a long shot.

I wish I could make sure she'll call Steve...I don't know how to say it or communicate it without it seeming like a demand...at least let her know the date/time/telephone number so she can choose to call or not...how to do it? email?

"I wish I could make sure..."

STOP any actions or words that begins like this. That is another way of manipulation ... and that is one of Spacecase's faults in the marriage (I am guessing)

Manipulation with loving intentions will not work. YOU see it as loving. SHE sees a control issue. It is a pattern you'd best begin to avoid NOW ... because if you expect your W to make changes to make marital recovery possible .... you'd better be ready to make this type of change along with her !

Love,

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ August 07, 2002, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>"I wish I could make sure..."

STOP any actions or words that begins like this. That is another way of manipulation ... and that is one of Spacecase's faults in the marriage (I am guessing)

Manipulation with loving intentions will not work. YOU see it as loving. SHE sees a control issue. It is a pattern you'd best begin to avoid NOW ... because if you expect your W to make changes to make marital recovery possible .... you'd better be ready to make this type of change along with her !

Love,

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, you're right. I need to stop doing that.

I still need to let her know there's an appt w/steve set...date/time/number...she doesn't know this...

She just baits me! I swear...I could scream!

Come over, wants to talk, starts by saying "we should talk, I thought we were going to talk..."

So I say "the time for talking is over; we've talked for almost a year, and it's all been lies, lies, lies...it's time for actions. Your words have no meaning anymore, actions will show what really is"

Then she says; "I know you're angry, I know you're hurt, but there are some facts I want to tell you..."

Then I said; "I'm not interested in your facts anymore, your facts have a funny way of turning into fiction"

She starts again; "Why do you think I'm still here and we're not separated, we're together as a couple.."

Then I say "we're NOT a couple, we're a triangle!We're together because I wanted to be here, knowing every day you were still in contact with this man, to show you that I love you, that I accept what I did wrong, and that I'm willing and able to change. That's why we're still together. And now, I choose to remove myself from your traingle."

I shouldn't have let her...I shouldn't have...it just happened...

Spacecase said:
After a few hours of the "silent treatment", she seemed to be teary-eyed and thoughtful...

Isn't this what you have wanted and waited for? Isn't this what SH thought might happen? Isn't that the reason for these last few days of contact?

Spacecase said:
This is odd. I am wondering whether I should say something like "I know you don't believe this right now, but I'm doing what I'm doing BECAUSE I love you. One day you'll realize that."

Didn't SH advise you on how to handle these few days? Won't this all be said in your Plan B letter?

Spacecase said:
But then again, maybe it's better to just leave her with what I left her with yesterday "I don't know what I'm going to do, but I need to go to think about it. I can't decide anything right now"

This sounds like what you said SH advised you to do.....do you trust him and his advice??

Spacecase said:
Except is seems kind of cruel...it pains me to hurt her...pains me deeply. Wish I could console her.

That's because it is hard to watch the ones we love suffer pain or turmoil. I think your dear WW was probably already in pain and turmoil....it's just a different kind now.

Does this help?
If one of your kids broke their leg and begged you to not make them go through the pain of having it re-set, would you prop them with pillows and indefinitely give them massive amounts of painkiller pills to save them from going through re-setting the bone?? Or would you do whatever you could do to encourage your kid to make the decision to follow dr's advice and let the leg be re-set....even if that meant you had to quit fluffing their pillows and providing massive amounts of painkiller pills??

You already said that this would be the hardest part of Plan B.....but you also know that it's necessary pain and turmoil for the greater good for BOTH of you.

My advice is to keep to the plan you and SH agreed on and not change it without talking to him about it first. This is the time for you to show your loving strength....to yourself as well as your dear WW.

Take care Spacecase....it's going to be difficult but you can and will do it!!!

SC:

I thought you were going to tell her in your plan B letter about the appt.?

As one who's recently "been there" or tried to be there, and then came back after a week of trying to do plan B on my own (without the coaching you're getting), I will underscore what Pepper and H4F are telling you about reassuring your W: In my case, it did no good whatsoever. That doesn't mean my W is a cruel person. She isn't, even though her cakewalking HAS BEEN cruel for 12 years now. But the fog has this wonderful person that I once knew "under the influence" so much so that when I came home, literally sounding like a completely broken man, she didn't have it "in her" to be very comforting. It was more sobering than comforting for me. Sobered my sorry @$$ right up, SC!

No, if I have to go to plan B for real at some point, and I'm expecting that I will, I think I know better this time. I'll be kind but firm, a man of few words, and I'll stay as much out of contact as is practicle in my sitch. And for as long as it takes to get that "whatever it takes" statement out of my W. And, knowing my W and her reluctance to say stuff like that (they seem to make her feel submissive, like she's given up her individuality), if I ever hear that from her I know that there's been a MAJOR breakthrough in her thinking.

"I could scream" ... Well? Did you scream or did you manage to say what you said with a calm tone of voice and a non-screaming facial expression?

She's going to pull on you.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

I know, YA, I know. It'll be better once I'm really out this afternoon...it's not easy to be here with her, packing, getting my stuff together...seeing her, the kids.

It'll all fall into place when I leave. I know I can do this, and I know I have to.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>"I could scream" ... Well? Did you scream or did you manage to say what you said with a calm tone of voice and a non-screaming facial expression?

She's going to pull on you.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I didn't scream, but I was also not totally calm...I was agitated, and probably didn't have a very pleasant look on my face.

2L;
You're right. I can tell her about the apptmt in the letter, but I will have to deliver it by Sunday or so since the apptmt is on Tuesday.

I agree with you about their saying "whatever it takes"...IF that ever comes out of her mouth, I will KNOW there's been a breakthrough...it would be so unlike her to be that cooperative.

SC:

"She just baits me! I swear...I could scream!"

Been there, done THAT!

"I shouldn't have let her...I shouldn't have...it just happened..."

Sounds very similar to the "arguments" we had in the couple of days before I left. Maybe if I had had SH coaching up to that time, I could have done a better job at implementing plan B (what am I saying? Of course I could have done a better job!). I think that these LB arguments are somewhat unavoidable at this stage. Remember, one of the reasons for transiting to plan B is when you find your ability to be loving increasingly difficult, with your love being replaced by anger and resentment. You "get out" hopefully before that takes over and you don't care at all, but in the process I bet that it's hard not to get sucked into these kinds of discussions. Sure, maybe it would have been better to have nice superficial convos up until you hand her the letter and leave, but life isn't always perfect. And what you said was the truth. That's the important thing, I think. I don't think you've done any damage here, in the overall scheme of things. But you are wise to be careful.

hope4future and pepperband,

this is all excellent advice! If you get a chance, please come over to my post. i am interested in your call on my situation.

Space, listen to them. they are making sense here. i am in the military and in an ambush, it is supposed to be a surprise until the first shot is fired. once that happens, you are fully committed. you must follow through with the plan. it is too late ,no matter the outcome, to back down or change things now. As justlearning recently posted to me, you must trust your training (MB training) and stick to your plan. otherwise, you will not succeed. This is something i am sorely learning now as I wind down Plan A and prepare for plan B. I have to finish up my Plan A well, and havent been doing that because of the impending Plan B situation. I need to be on top of my game when I commit to cutting things off.

Stay with the plan...trust it. At this point, you have no other viable choice.

In His Arms.

SC,

Make sure you tell the kids they can come see you any time and how to reach you. You can tell W or leave her a note that there is an appointment with SH, IF she wants to use it to please feel free to do so. I think that last comment will suggest to her that you haven't quit yet.

Remember she doesn't have the plan b letter yet. She doesn't have a clue what your plans are. Are you leaving and filing? Are you leaving and maybe coming back? Are you leaving and coming back when something happens? She doesn't know.

Frankly, I think your last discussion was on point and needed. It is reality time for her,just as it has been for all of these long months.

I will repeat: DON'T WORRY, SHE IS THE ONE WITH THE PROBLEMS. You are not in love with a drug dealer. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Seriously, SC this must play out and it won't play out without pain and tears. You have shed many of yours. Your W is just getting started. Ironically, she controls how many and for how long, so her pain is primarily self-inflicted. If she decides to end A and contact, you are back. If she decides to divorce, it is over. If she decides to continue to sit on the fence, her pain will continue for a long time. It is HER choice not yours.

So move out, move on, and enjoy your children.

God Bless,

JL