Thanks H4F, I'm thinking that too.

I'll email her, let her know about the apptmt. and ask her to LMK if she's going to use it, otherwise, I will. She should be OK with that, it's not like I haven't said "we need to keep using Steve" 100 times! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

And that way, I can get as many $LB depoists as possible before Wed...and deliver the letter then.

Sound like a plan?

Space,
You look so handsome in your hawaiian shirt! What kind of marinade do you use for the tenderloin?

oops, sorry Space, I didn't see where you answered the marinade ?. I will trying this out tomorrow!

I'm flattered that my tenderloin and marinade get so much attention! LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Wish my W would pay attention to SOMETHING about me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

According to this "Affairs Types" questionnaire,

Affair Types Questionnaire

my W's A is a "Split Self Affair":

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Split Self Affair</strong>
The Split Selves have tried to do marriage right. Both spouses have sacrificed their own feelings and needs to take care of others, and the deprivation has caught up with one of them. <strong>The affair is serious, long-term and passionate.</strong> The spouse who is having the affair focuses on deciding between the marriage and the affair partner and avoids looking at the inner split. Most often this is a man's affair, but that may be changing.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Doesn't sound too promising, does it?

SC: Doesn't sound too promising, does it?

JR: I dunno... I think there's a lot of that "going around"... kinda like a disease or something... as the description says, it's likely becoming more and more common in women, and I can see the basis for that. In the end, I think an exit affair might be harder to deal with, since the WS has let it get so far as totally "quitting" with no love left... I think both of our WW's DO have plenty of love in the ol' love bank - there's been an accounting error, however... would put WorldCom to shame... but once we get it all straightened out, I think the balance sheet will become compelling <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

JR;
I think we both know that deep down inside, both our WSs really have it in them. However, my W's EXTREME reluctance has me dismayed.

I found out late tonight that she's been in touch with a friends sister who is a psychologist, and the gist of it is she again does not reveal the extent and importance of the A, nor its effect on us and as the cause of the current crisis, but rather that we "never" fed the relationship, that she's not in love, that I don't satisfy her as a woman, etc, etc, and naturally does not talk about what behaviors may have prompted all of this...sickening. She just wants validation from a professional for what she's convinced is right (a divorce) and keeps the pertinent information from her in order to get that validation. What density of fog!
I'm almost tempted to grant her her wish and put us all out of our misery!

Perhaps the taste of "divorce" Plan B can be will help her see the light? Pretty much the last boarding call!

<small>[ August 11, 2002, 01:43 AM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

Dear Spacecase -

I also put in my two cents worth to say - GREAT shirt! Great taste! and it looks great on YOU! Your wife just doesn't know what she's losing.

I have been lurking a lot, and haven't felt confident enough to offer any helpful advice, but want to say that you sound like you are in a really good "space" right now - meaning, you are not happy with what you feel you now have to do, but you are prepared, and you are able to go through with your plan and are prepared to live with whatever may happen.

Sounds like your wife is still talking blather to anyone who will hear, including psychologists. But it seems to me that anyone with half a brain is going to see through those swiss cheese holes in her head - she is losing her marriage and the respect of her children so she can stay attached to a convict who lives hundreds of miles away?! OK, so she is justifying herself left right and center, but this activity will escalate with her anxiety as D-day approaches - her D-day when she has to lie in the bed she has made and has no-one.

Like an alcoholic, she only has a chance to wake up and realize that the problem is hers after she has lost everything. She has problems that she needs counselling to deal with and she may get herself into counselling after she "loses" you - but probably until then, she will reach out to everyone she can think of to try to justify herself.

I would try not to let this bother you. You know yourself, and also, your family and your kids know you - and you have their support.

BTW - your daughter is stunning! And she obviously loves you - you are a lucky man to have such wonderful children.

LIR

SC:

Just wanted to say YO!

Got a busy rest of the month going on at work right now, so I wont' be able to post much. Did see the Hawaiian shirt thing! Good stuff (and your D *IS* a killer!!). That wouldn't work for me, though. My W MAKES my HSs, and I pick the fabric! (lots of dinosaurs and rockets and stuff in my hawaiian shirts! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ). So, I'd have to wear a business suit to get HER attention! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Sorry I didn't get to read up on all the posts, but I did see the one you thought you'd LB'd. Those things are bound to happen some as you go to plan B, or you wouldn't be in this position to begin with. You handled it well, considering!

Please take care, I'll be thinking about you.

Space

A couple of little things. I did that affair "profiler" too and according to it I was destined to want both forever. That's how it made it sound, anyway. But...that's not the case. So don't worry too much about what it says. One of the things that actually encouraged me down Dv path over and over was that this test says this etc etc. According to everything I ever read and even our counselor...H and I are just too different to be compatible.

The other thing. You said your wife seems hell bent on babbling to anyone who will listen about how she's not at fault in the marriage. Don't take THAT as the deciding sign she'll never get it...because I think that's pretty common of being a WS. It's pretty easy to tell just the parts you want people to hear to try to suade them to your "side". In the end it really doesn't matter what you have everyone else believing, because you still have to live with yourself and as much truth as you're willing to see.

Dear Space case,

Thanks for you reply on my thread (repair after the affair), i actually bought "after the affair about 10 days ago and have been learning quite a bit (especially learning my husbands thought process), thank you so much...

I have not had time to go through all your sites as they are quite lengthy but have gotten the jist...Hang in there, you sound like an incredible mad and i hope you find the love you deserve....

Thanks again!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lady_In_Red:
<strong>Dear Spacecase...
you sound like you are in a really good "space" right now - meaning, you are not happy with what you feel you now have to do, but you are prepared, and you are able to go through with your plan and are prepared to live with whatever may happen.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is true. However, it is an enormous source of frustration to me that I was not able to do much to help my W help herself. I KNOW that is not my responsibility and that this is not something I should do, but the feeling remains nonetheless. Thank you for your kind words LIR!

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sounds like your wife is still talking blather to anyone who will hear, including psychologists. But it seems to me that anyone with half a brain is going to see through those swiss cheese holes in her head - she is losing her marriage and the respect of her children so she can stay attached to a convict who lives hundreds of miles away?! OK, so she is justifying herself left right and center, but this activity will escalate with her anxiety as D-day approaches - her D-day when she has to lie in the bed she has made and has no-one. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I know this is true as well, however, we know only too well the stance traditional therapists take with these matters, and especially when they don't have all the information, they are bound to recommend divorce.
Sad but true...

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Like an alcoholic, she only has a chance to wake up and realize that the problem is hers after she has lost everything. She has problems that she needs counselling to deal with and she may get herself into counselling after she "loses" you - but probably until then, she will reach out to everyone she can think of to try to justify herself.

I would try not to let this bother you. You know yourself, and also, your family and your kids know you - and you have their support.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes; she needs a lot of help. Wish she would allow someone to help her. It may be too late for us when/if she ever does.
And that does bother me...however hard I try to help the intellect win over the emotions.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
BTW - your daughter is stunning! And she obviously loves you - you are a lucky man to have such wonderful children.
LIR </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am indeed lucky in this regard. Very lucky. And you know what the sad part of that is? that many of the best traits my children have, among them total honesty, were taught and reinforced on them by none other than my W. Ironic, isn't it?

Thanks for stopping by, 2L! I was wondering where you were <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by hope4future:
<strong>Space
...You said your wife seems hell bent on babbling to anyone who will listen about how she's not at fault in the marriage. Don't take THAT as the deciding sign she'll never get it...because I think that's pretty common of being a WS. It's pretty easy to tell just the parts you want people to hear to try to suade them to your "side". In the end it really doesn't matter what you have everyone else believing, because you still have to live with yourself and as much truth as you're willing to see.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How true...and how sad that one can reach a place where one actually believes that if you don't deal with the truth, don't reveal it, it won't hurt you.

I did something I probably shouldn’t have done, but you know me, I’m hell-bent on tweaking the “system” and find it almost impossible not to try to “influence” outcomes…In any case, I did it and that’s that…

This psychologist my W is speaking with is the sister of my next-door neighbor growing up, so I’ve known her since she was 3 years old or so. Although I haven’t been in touch with her for several years, our families are and have been fairly close for many, many years, and I sent her this email (I removed the initial salutation part):

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have no desire whatsoever to interfere with your discussions (w/W), or the outcome of those. On the contrary; whatever can help W, I have highly encouraged.

Rather, it is my desire to point out a couple of things that have, in the past with previous counselors, prevented us from reaching any meaningful conclusions. First of all, I am currently separated from her. I left last Wednesday after 11 months since my discovery of her very pronounced emotional affair.

During this period I did all of the things I should NOT have done, and as I have become more educated about these matters, have, probably over the last 6 months, done what are considered the right things. But my purpose is no to tell you about me.

W has so far refused to acknowledge to any of our counselors (or to me) the continued existence of this relationship of approximately 2 years. Since my discovery of it last August, she has lied about it constantly, first saying it was just a friendship, only for me to discover numerous and explicit love letters and cards, and then insisting it was over, and on many occasions (at least 6 or 7) since then this was proven to be false. In fact, she last visited him a couple of days prior to her visit to (friend in FL, her brother & his W) in July. She saw him July 18th to be precise. This relationship is not over (unless it happened in the intervening time between that visit and today, which I doubt), and it has been the source of our current crisis. Secondly, this man is a convicted cocaine dealer, who is currently serving a 12 year sentence in a federal prison close to (central FL town).

While I fully recognize that I have made many mistakes and neglected W in many ways, I have also made an enormous effort to discover, understand, and correct these failings since about 6 or 7 months ago. While W has also made some efforts at correcting some of her hurtful behaviors, truthfully she has not taken the hard and difficult look inside herself that she should, to discover which of her behaviors have affected us, nor has she recognized the enormous impact her on-going affair has on me, our relationship, our family, and our ability to address our marital and relationship issues.

I presume she feels that since it was not a physical affair, that it does not imply infidelity or that it does not compromise our emotional connection. Naturally, this has made it nearly impossible to make serious progress. I am also not blameless in this aspect, I must admit, as I have perhaps focused too much on this and not enough on other areas, but I have made a sincere effort.

I have reached the point where I was unable to emotionally function in my home with W, while her affair continued. I did this for 11 months, and simply the pain of it became unbearable, and I chose to remove myself from her triangle. Hopefully, this time we are apart will allow her to think about what she wants, and perhaps to make the tough decisions she must make for herself. I, for my part, have made mine; if she does not end her other relationship, our relationship will be over. I sincerely hope this does not happen, but I am certainly unable to live with a third party about which I was not consulted, much less consented to.

I've said enough. I hope that this is in some way helpful to your purpose, although I am sure that W would interpret it as an unacceptable and manipulative interference in her private affairs. If for any reason you find it may be useful to speak with me, either to add information or to provide my perspective, I will be happy to oblige. Just email me or call me at my number below. Otherwise, I will not contact you again, as I will respect your decision not to include me.

My sincere and heartfelt thanks for what you are doing: I truly love her and hope against hope that we are somehow able to save our marriage. For my part, I will do whatever I can towards that end.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Dear Spacecase,

Just to say hi and hope you are OK today. I fully understand what you are saying about WW and your inability to help her. I feel the same way about my H, although there seems to be hope in our case, although at a very slow pace. While our feelings and our rational minds become more differentiated, and we are able to be more in control of ourselves, this doesn't detract from the love we still feel for our spouse.

If it makes you feel better, I did something similar to your e-mail to your psychologist friend, back in Feb, and I don't regret doing it. I'm sure my H would see this as manipulative, but it was not meant that way - I saw it as self-defense, since I knew what he was saying about me and that he was exactly like your wife, not telling the whole truth.

My H had made a new friend and was talking to this new friend about how crazy and depressive and awful I was and had been to him and how difficult life was for him. When I saw (through snooping into his e-mails) that this was going on, I e-mailed this friend. I said very much the same kind of things you said - I warned that this new friend did not know my H, and did not know me, and so had to realize that anything my H said was one-sided. I said that I loved and understood my H and had tried in many ways to reach him and to improve our relationship, but that he continually blamed me, while at the same time refusing to take any responsibility for either his actions, or his part in our problems. I told him that my H had started secret R's with 2 women in the past year, which he conducted through e-mail and TXT msg and cellphone. I told him that he should watch and listen to my H's words because I was sure that my H would villify me. I told him that if he wanted to be a true friend to both of us, and counsel my H responsibly, he should be careful to remember that there were always two sides in a marriage. I said that if he wanted to be a true friend, the best thing he could do was to encourage my H into counselling, as all of our closest friends had been trying to do for the last 9 months and to no avail. I said other things and wish I had kept that e-mail, but I was afraid he would find it. I did this because when I snooped into my H's e-mail account, I saw that he was e-mailing this friend, who in one e-mail, commented that I had looked "decidedly unfriendly" at church and so he had avoided talking to me. Because of what my H was saying about me, he interpreted the look on my face as hostility, when in actuality, it was simply sadness and extreme tension. I wanted to set the record straight and I wanted him to know I was not the person my H was making me out to be. I also told him that I would only communicate with him this once because I did not want to put him in the middle, or be accused of trying to manipulate my H's relationships. I received a very hearfelt e-mail back from this person, thanking me for telling him my side and agreeing that he did not know my H or me well, and that he would pray for both of us. I noticed later that this person said "Great - she agrees to go to a neutral counselor together - this is good news!" That was in Feb. It's now 6 months later, and we still have not seen a "neutral counselor together" - but its actually there in black and white that I agreed to this back in Feb. So I believe this person is being responsible in his friendship with my H. Hopefully good things can still happen.

I don't feel bad about this, and even if my H ever finds out, I am happy with my actions. I am tired of being portrayed as the one who "didn't meet his needs" and pushed him into this.

LIR

Thanks LIR; I don't regret doing it either. If one day she de-fogs, I'm sure she will be thankful for many of the things I have done which in her current state seem so awful. If she does, she will see they were all done in her own interst and out of love, not a desire to hurt or revenge, or for my benefit, as she currently feels.

Take care! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

What does this mean? Another e-Card!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>"Just Dropping a Note to say Thanks!"
H, You've been so sweet!!!
Thanks,W</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Heh heh heh... another one, eh?

It's such a pattern, is it not??? REALITY... catching up to her... heh heh... Amazing how similar people react...

Enjoy it... But don't attach anything to it quite yet. You're in the one in the driver's seat here, don't forget... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

JR;
I hesitate to believe that "reality" is starting to hit so soon! It's just too good to be true...it's too unlike her, it's almost not possible.

It sure doesn't feel like I'm in the driver's seat!

I guess I'm so jaded from all these months of suffering and disappointment; my expectations are VERY, VERY low! And I'm very suspicious and cynical...waiting for actions...words are easy.