<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Spacecase:

Steve had said I should do this for 1 week, then deliver the Plan B letter and "go dark". That is scheduled for Wed this week.

We have an apptmt w/Steve tomorrow, which my W is going to take. I've left him a message to see if he and I can talk after her apptmt but before I deliver the letter on Wed. Hopefully, we'll be able to, otherwise, I'll continue as planned.

There have been some comments from forum-members that perhaps I should wait to deliver the letter and go dark fro a little time, since my W has shown some signs of "life" (initiating physical contact, kissing, etc, has been crying some, send me a couple of e-cards, etc.) and some think she may just be "waking up". I don't think so, but maybe if you can take a few minutes to catch up on this and comment, I'd appreciate it!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Whew...I really hope you get a chance to talk with SH after your wife's appointment. Based on his conversation with her he will be the person with the right decision on whether or not to go ahead with the Plan B Letter. I've thought it over and can honesty see both ways. You're at such a critical stage that he needs to be the one to advise you. If you don't get a chance to talk with him; your decision should factor in your W's attitude following the appt.

Point is that I don't think you have enough information to make that decision right now. I'm glad your kids are being so supportive! Wow! You are truly blessed to have raised them with such kindness and sensitivity. I'll keep reading and catching up! CSue[/QB][/QUOTE]

Space asks CSue...
Why do you say I don't have enough information right now? After last week's session, Steve and I agreed it was time for Plan B, he just recommended doing it a little differently, but not for the purpose of "deciding" if I was going to Plan B or not; that was already decided...what do you see that has changed so much?

CSue answers...

Space, I was responding to what you said above about some FORUM MEMBERS thinking you should wait to deliver the Plan B Letter! Sorry about the confusion... I'm hoping that after your W's appointment with SH it could affect whether SH feels you should deliver the Plan B Letter and go dark.

I do know how hard it is to conctact SH between appointments; I was hoping you would be around when W talks to SH so that you could get on the phone when she was through with her appt. But it may not be possible.

The point I didn't make very well was that if you don't have a chance to talk with SH tomorrow; you are going to have to decide whether or not to deliver the Plan B Letter. My thought was you don't know what your W's attitude is or what SH might possibly tell you until after her appt tomorrow, so for today you don't have this information in order to make the decision regarding whether to deliver the letter or not.

Sheesh...I can tell I am a little rusty at this after being gone. Let me know If I've confused you further or clarified!! CSue

No CSue, you're making perfect sense. Since it is best to make sure we're doing the right thing, it would be the best scenario if I could speak with Steve after his session w/my W, and I will try to do this.

If I cannot, then I may delay it one more day to try again, but probably no more than that. I suspect that if Steve hears anything that is a "surprise" or a "major change", he will try to contact me...he knows what he and I planned, and if something changes, I guess he'll let me know.

Thanks CSue, glad to have you back! How was your vacation?

Space,
Just wanted to add a word of encouragement!
I believe, considering all the pain & torture you have been through, you are hangin in there pretty good. You have a solid plan & confidence in Steve & I think he has counseled you well!
You have done your very best & very good at that. I know it seems very bleak to you now & I am sorry for that. But I know that you will come out of this a much stronger man.
I wanted to remind you about Dobson's perspective that the plan B thing can serve as a good wake up call. We don't know what will work of course & it is important to have good expectations -- not always just hoping fro what we think will be the best - cause sometimes it is difficult to determine that -- you have been very devoted to holding your M together & the family has been your top priority & I feel that you will be blessed for that!!
You know that in the final analysis there is a lot of things that are simply out of our control -we cannot ultimately control how our S's love us, for example. BTW, it seems she has shown a big improvement there! But I agree with your strategies. She needs some time to figure this out & that time by herself. She is very fortunate to have you there to support her - she will eventually figure that part out at least! You have done your part in creating the environment for healing, but you cannot do it all of course.
Do your best & whatever happens will be for the BEST!

Peace be with you, brother! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
Bob

SPACE!!!

Did I just read right in Mortar's thread...you emailed the wheel of abuse to her and asked her which you've been guilty of?!?!

Why? Why did you do this?

To me it's only going to work against you AT THIS POINT. While, yes, it shows your willingness to work on your side of things...it also lets her wrap her wayward mind around more fault that's YOURS. Instead of focusing on her part of things. You want her OUT of the fog, right? Then quit asking her what else you didn't do right!!!!

Better hope I don't find that MB frying pan...

Thank you, HH, very encouraging words. I agree that I did a pretty good job up to now, sure it could have been better, probably would have been better if so many things weren't happening, but overall, as well as I could have done under the circumstances.

The only thing I regret was not being able to control my reactions to my W's words; perhaps there I was too harsh and almost wholly unable to make a significant change. Especially when we talked about the lies...

But the frustrations are many, and the doubts are many. My W is SO convinced that I'm "out to get her", and so convinced that I want to hurt her, and has been so apparently for so long, that nothing I say is ever listened to. Almost every word already has her interpretation built in; an interpretation that is completely crazy most of the time. For example when I saw the email she was writing to someone about our problems and I asked "who is this you're emailing", she comes back with "What! now I can't talk to anyone about our problems?" and hundreds like it...just nutty trying to get through to her.

Another thing that I doubt she'll ever do is admit all the truth. She is again, so convinced that I want to hurt her, that she's afraid of doing it. And here's what's really crazy about that one; she says that after her first A (14 years ago) I never treated her the same, and she's probably right, a lot of things changed. But on that occasion we did not process it, discuss it, nothing. She ended it, end of story, move on. And even though she says that I never treated her the same, she cannot make the connection that perhaps it was BECAUSE we didn't process it, because we didn't discuss it, that that happened. So when I tell her this time we have to do things right, she resists it so much that I can't understand it.

And it would appear that over the years she has has SO MANY secrets, perhaps even other affairs, that she is just paralized and completely unable to even contemplate the possibility of talking about it. She's created this unbreakable connection between her secrets and her ability to retain her personality, and she is simply unable to break that, she fears she'd lose her individuality if she did.

And so on; there are several more, similar, very ingrained and almost pathological behaviors and convictions of hers that obviously require treatment, that obviously need to be dealt with. But she doesn't even recognize that she does it, or thinks there could be another way of doing it.

And those, I'm afraid, are the things that will make it so much harder for us to recover. Like I said, she's contemplating divorce, discussing it with her IC, rather than having to face her own demons. She'd rather run away again, regardless of the consequences to our family, rather than facing that, rather than giving me a chance to show her that I love her and that I'm here to help, not hurt her.

Sorry for the vent!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by hope4future:
<strong>SPACE!!!

Did I just read right in Mortar's thread...you emailed the wheel of abuse to her and asked her which you've been guilty of?!?!

Why? Why did you do this?

To me it's only going to work against you AT THIS POINT. While, yes, it shows your willingness to work on your side of things...it also lets her wrap her wayward mind around more fault that's YOURS. Instead of focusing on her part of things. You want her OUT of the fog, right? Then quit asking her what else you didn't do right!!!!

Better hope I don't find that MB frying pan...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You're right, Hope, you're right. I knew it was wrong when I did it. But I have a great fear that if she doesn't somehow see that I really recognize my part in this, that I am sincere about that, she will remain convinced that all I want and Steve wants is for HER to give this up, and for HER to do this and that, and for HER to...remember she does not even recognize that I've made any changes to myself in Plan A! (even though she has before). So, I felt it was worth reinforcing that just a bit more, especially since the Plan B letter is coming and Steve's talk with her today.

I fear she may be willing to give it all up and end it rather than facing her own demons. And if somehow, I can get her to have a bit of confidence that I am sincere and wish her well, not harm, I may be able to tip the scales in favor of the M and against D.

SC:

"remember she does not even recognize that I've made any changes to myself in Plan A! (even though she has before)."

I think the point is that she DOES remember the changes you've made. She may have buried the memory in her fog, but it's there. It's up to HER to revive it and cogitate.

"I have a great fear that if she doesn't somehow see that I really recognize my part in this, that I am sincere about that, she will remain convinced that all I want and Steve wants is for HER to give this up, and for HER to do this and that, and for HER to...remember she does not even recognize that I've made any changes to myself in Plan A!"

Exactly the point, Space. Nothing you were doing during Plan A would have given her cause to believe you weren't sincere about not seeing your part in all this. So why would the same method you used then, work now? She has to be OUT of the fog before she'll recognize ALL your efforts...that includes now. I know you have a great fear...that, again, is the point. If you want different results, you need different methods of getting them. As long as you are still admitting fault, asking for her guidance in fixing YOU...you're helping keep her in the fog where she'll avoid seeing all your true efforts.

"I fear she may be willing to give it all up and end it rather than facing her own demons. And if somehow, I can get her to have a bit of confidence that I am sincere and wish her well, not harm, I may be able to tip the scales in favor of the M and against D."

Nothing you can do or say can make her someone she isn't. If she's really that lost and unwilling to find herself...there's nothing you can do. I know you hate that...it's an awful spot to be in...but it's still the case.

Do it different...or you'll have the same results.

Point well taken Hope & 2L.

One more mistake in an endless sting of them...I'll be dusting myself off when I can get the mud out of my eyes! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

Good News!
Steve had a cancellation later today, and I got it. So I'll be able to run all this by him before "going dark"....and I'll have his feedback from the session with my W which is going on right now.

Yay! I think that's GREAT news! I was hoping for that.

interesting-er and interesting-er.....

(((Space)))

Read H4F's last post to yourself PRIOR to making any further "efforts" ... cuz she's dead on target ....

Space to wife .... "see look ... see look .... see look"

Wife to Space .... "fog...fog...fog...fog..."

Space back to wife ..."see look ... see look ... see look"

The dance is circular.

We know you want to help her ... so let her feel her consequences so she can walk out of the fog on her own power. (or crawl out if that be her individual preference)

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ August 13, 2002, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

OK, OK...I get it...I'm in the corner with the dunce cap on... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

NO dunce cap ... you get a lollipop instead!

Remember watching your kids learn to walk? They fell down more than they walked for awhile. And it hurts to fall down ... but every "ouchie" was a lesson that eventually contributed to them becoming independent walkers.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

come out of that corner, Spacey... no biggee... You know if I didn't fuss at ya, it must not be too bad. Nothing wrong with a few mistakes, k? You are doing GREAT!!!

Perhaps the best feeling about Plan B is that you will feel like the pressure is off you!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> The ball is in her court, and you won't have to worry about walking on egg-shells, saying and doing the right things, strategizing NEARLY as much, etc. It's a tremendous relief off your shoulders. The stress transitions from performance anxiety to "sit and wait" anxiety. And we'll be here for you through it all, k?

Take off that dunce cap. You learned your lesson. It's ok!!

Space,
Don't be so hard on yourself - this is not a pure science & no one goes through this stuff w/o some mistakes.
We know it is not good to go off on our spouse, and we don't want to condon that kind of actions, but we are human!!
Your W is of course is under stress & having to deal with lots of guilt, I am sure, so I believe it is somewhat natural to deflect her part in this -- in the end --I believe it is important we recocgnise that we have problems - it does little good actualy to point fingers, but the important thing is to be fair in assessing what we each need to work on -- and that is the part where we have to assess who did what maybe, but the intent is to solve the problems, not lay blame - she would natuarlly not be in a good position to accept that! She knows that she is the one that crossed the lines - this creates lot's of reactions -- Not your fault!!
Peace, & Best wishes ...

<small>[ August 13, 2002, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: Hurrian Hoosier ]</small>

Thanks folks, I'm OK, I know it's OK to make some mistakes, sometimes it just feels like I've made too many.

Thanks for your support!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ August 13, 2002, 12:35 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

SC -- Very curious to see what Steve H. has to say. Pepperband's analogy about learning to walk is a good one that I have to constantly put my mind around when thinking about WH and you should also with your WH. There are other issues there and you are right about her not wanting to face her own demons. You can't do it for her. You know that, but it's still hard.

Hoping for the best for you. You have been an inspiration in your ability to stay in a solid plan A and if it comes to a complete plan B, I know I will learn from you in that as well.

SC - from your post this morning:

- But I have a great fear that...
- I fear she may be willing...

I don't know if the "fear" is real or if that's just coming out in your written expression. Fear for the BS is a natural byproduct of an A. But it's something I had to deal with, and maybe you do, too.

Fear was crippling my ability to deal with the aftermath of my W's affair and try to move forward. We couldn't get anywhere because of it. I am now embracing strength and confidence instead, and it has changed everything. My wife is more responsive to "this" me than to the "fearful" me.

I might be reading more into your words than are really there, but thought I'd throw it out there if it really is an issue for you.

Take care and stay strong. We're all pulling for you.

Space,

I was catching up on the big Megathread of Persistant's over on JFO and wanted to pass this on to you. If you want to do any further reading about his point below it's dated 8/7/02 8:01 AM. Basically he's talking about the importance of "No Contact".

"P" is talking here...

You did fantastic. No contact is paramount. I agree with Cerri&#8217;s &#8220;you don't have him back yet to lose, as long as he is still involved with her in any way.&#8221; Oh, and I like this too: &#8220;let him know you are hurt and offended beyond belief every time he sees or speaks to her. That doing so is unacceptable to you. Do it factually and without demands or disrespect.&#8221; Because he is going to have to make a choice. Either to completely end all contact with the OW AND commit to recovery to you, or he can have her as his &#8220;friend.&#8221; Moving back into your house, going through the motions of recovery with you, but having her to confide with was just going to end in tragedy and more hurt than you&#8217;ve already gone through. He has to make a choice. Period.

Ok, here&#8217;s my own theory (MB disclaimer&#8230;.). No contact is absolutely required. It&#8217;s a huge step toward allowing recovery of the marriage to begin, by getting the OP out of the picture. Out of sight, no conversation, out of mind is the goal. But in instances where the affair didn&#8217;t get a chance to burn out on it&#8217;s own, where the affair parted on &#8220;friend&#8221; terms, or where it more or less had to end because marriage was not possible (i.e., like in our situation where OM wouldn&#8217;t leave wife and risk custody battle) &#8211; in these instances I think the seed is still planted in the WS mind that things might still work out with OP. We know the Love Bank is still full if they didn&#8217;t part on poor terms. I think the WS can go through withdrawal (more or less just missing those special feelings they had for OP), but I still don&#8217;t think this in any way changes the feelings the WS has for the OP.

So, you see, even with no-contact and withdrawal, there&#8217;s still some pretty huge feelings, maybe even some hope, for OP. So no contact at least prevents further Love Units from being deposited by OP. It at least gives your marriage a chance. With contact still going on, it doesn&#8217;t have a chance. Face it , we all have baggage we are trying to overcome (either LB&#8217;ing or neglecting EN&#8217;s) &#8211; things our spouse remembers about us. Things that were not present with OP in fantasyland. Things that keep WS reluctant to commit fully to rebuilding the marriage &#8211; regardless of what they say. Keep them from being fully O&H, because of the possibility that our transformation may all just be an act, or something temporary, and Jeckyl and Hyde might play out.

Even with no contact, you are still going to have these struggles. Commitment to and working through recovery. Trying to rebuild a relationship between just the two of you. And there are going to be bumps and hiccups (Hi C&#8217;s) along the road. Emotionally, I think at each of these, he&#8217;s going to think back about OW, and wonder whether he&#8217;s chosen the right path. And with time these thoughts will dwindle. But if she&#8217;s still in the picture, with contact, he&#8217;s never ever going to be truly committed to recovering your marriage &#8211; no matter what he says.

Ok, I think I beat this &#8220;no contact&#8221; thing to death. Say &#8220;uncle&#8221; and I&#8217;ll stop! You did the right thing though, BH.

End of quoting "P".

CSue