Then you are on the right path. Funny how the less you do and the more distance you put, the closer they try to come. Hm......

Here's my sig line, it might help with the time table.

L.

Thanks for the encouragement. I'm not ready for a full Plan B yet, but as soon as I started limiting my contact, he changed almost immediately, bringing up conversations about us and our future, that I chose to switch the subject, not setting myself up again. But he keeps pursuing the relationship conversations, not me, so I see that as positive, right?? Baby steps, patience. and babies do fall down a bit, cry, get up, keep going, sooner or later they're running.

Hi,
I just had to agree with Orchid's post. Be happy about the email. Sounds like fog is lifting a bit but irregardless, take care of you.
I think you have done a smashing job of the plan A. You showed amazing strength and courage.
Good luck,
Hugs,
Layli

thanks layli, sometimes I think I started Plan A a little late. For the whole first year after D-Day, before I found MB, I could say I was doing a partial Plan A, I avoided the LBs that I knew of (angry outbursts), but not the all of them. I was always asking when are you coming home, contacted him all the time, always wanted to talk about relationship, etc.

when I "discovered" MB a few months ago, counseled with Steve, I really thought he was going to tell me to go to Plan B, but he told me to Plan A my heart out, which is difficult for me, because WH was living with OW. I decreased on my LB's but me always wanting to initate relationship conversations never stopped. I then came to the realization about a month ago that Plan A is not pleading your case to the WH. Its about stepping back, taking a true look at yourself, and improve. I realized that my WH was not budging in changing, so I was going to change me. Make myself stronger, no nagging, no pleading, no iniating Relationship conversations, etc. But when he started iniating all the contact, I started acting like a "friend", just being there, didn't tell him what to do, what he should do, etc.

Maybe thats a better Plan A, at least in my position where he's not living here. I feel like I am in prePlanB though mostly.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">GC: ...I feel like I am in prePlanB though mostly </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BINGO! GC, you are in a perfect position for this. You are at home, he's with a friend, and he's kinda wanting to come home.

Best thing you can do is not contact him, let him call if he wants to (I'm in a difficult position to do that since I'm the one who left the house, and my kids are still with her). But even so, I've been able to start her thinking quite a bit. And I've only been gone 2 weeks.

You can keep this up much longer, since he's the one who has to come to you if he wants to come home. After a bit if time, you can gauge where he's at, if he's starting to wake up, wanting to come home, etc. When that happens, you have your "requirements" for that to happen, just like I have my "requirements" to go back home.

At some point, if he remains on the fence for too long, you can have a "conversation" where you insinuate that you are thinking you've got to put your life together, and he may not be included if he's still waffling. Maybe ask "what do you want to do about that?". Perhaps "push" him off the fence a bit.

The main thing, though, is to remain strong and firm. Even if you're DYING for him to come home, make sure he believes otherwise, and make sure you "blow him off" a couple of times; that provides incentive. It has worked for me; she's apparently moving in the right direction, even though she backtracked last week. But this week she's apparently back on board, so we'll see.

GC, Here are the rules that I used in my modified Plan B, not all may apply to your situation but
the principle will. Hang in there.. Dave

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore!
2. No frequent phone calls
3. Do not point out good points in marriage
4. Do not follow her around the house
5. Do not encourage talk about the future
6. Do not ask for help from family members
7. Do not ask for reassurances
8. Do not buy gifts
9. Do not schedule dates together
10. Do not spy on spouse
11. Do not say "I Love You"
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his whereabouts, ASK NOTHING
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you
are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important,
realize what she will be missing
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show her
someone she would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a
while)
21. Never lose your cool
22. Don't be overly enthusiiastic
23. Do not argue about how she feels (it only makes their feelings stronger)
24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil)
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words
you can say or write
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute
negatives because she is hurting and scared
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel
34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes.

thanks Spacecase.

Davepr: check, check, and check, I think I'm doing a pretty good job of the LRT (you copied these from DB site, didn't ya?) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
It was so hard at first no contacting him because he wasn't contacting me either, now I just let him do all the initial contacting!!

Anyway, a little update:

I rec'd two emails from WH this morning, one saying that his car has too many miles and the value is too low to trade it in since its not payed off yet.
The second email he asked for me to check to see if a local therapist near his work was in our Insurance Directory.

so, I checked my insurance website, she wasn't there, checked the AAMFT website, she wasnt there either.

So, I just sent a response back to him saying that he may call her to see and also with our insurance it requires the PCP to make the referral.

I also mentioned in there that he could give Steve H a call and gave the info to him, said that he's a little expensive but probably understands what he is going through, plus he has a little history on us.

Did you ever get a referral to a local mb therapist? what did steve advise, and how many sessions did you have...? For the insurance benefit maybe you should call the mb office and ask for someone in your area that at least knows mb principles... believe me the wrong therapist can be like death... but at least ws is wanting to work on this with you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> !

Very good sign he is bringing up counseling and very very good - the way you let him own some of the responsibility for setting up appt. , etc. He needs to own his part in all of this... dont baby him.

Hugs, HONEY <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Honey:
<strong>Did you ever get a referral to a local mb therapist?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I called MB and they told me they did not have a list at this time, maybe not for the next year, because they are going through training.

Yes, I am afraid he will pick the wrong counselor, one who's not pro-marriage, thats why I was hoping she would be listed with AAMFT. I'm going to do a little more searching on the web to see if I can find her and her credentials. I had also asked him if she was recommended by someone

Hi there! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I just wanted to say that I have been reading. You've gotten lots of good advice.
I haven't got much advice, I just felt like talking to you. Wanted to give you some info about the time we were going through this "alien" phase in our relationship. It might calm you down abit and you might get to understand, not to take everything all that serious what he is saying. Don't take it too personal.

I just wanted to tell you our situation when my H was in Withdrawel. When I look back (I didn't know MB'S at that time) I was very confused about his behaviour. Now it does make sence, his sencelessness! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> (is that a word??)

He was telling me all sorts of things that made me think "he's going crazy, the OW has "doomed" his mind.
He acted like a child (inner child was taking overhand) and the next he would be saying very logical things and he would be very responsible all of a sudden. (inner adult was taking over)

I remember once when I asked him what it was that attracted him to OW, he told me: Her favorite drinks are "milk" and "redwine". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
He thought this was one reason that he felt a deep connection with her. By the way, these are also my favorite drinks.
I thought at that time: huh, what the heck is wrong with him?????

Months later when I told him that he had told me this, he looked at me and said: No; i have never told you something that rediculous!! That wasn't me! He cannot believe that he said anything like this. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Then one day he told me that he wanted to change alot of things in his life. He wanted to take over complete responsiblity. He wanted to do all of his office work (bookkeeping and everything financial) as he didn't have a clue how to do it and it made him feel stupid.

I had always done that and he had told OW that he did all of this. She thought that he did all business stuff!!! She would complain to my H that her H wouldn't do any of this, she had to organise everything and she was the one that did all the finances. So this probably made him feel bad, knowing that he wasn't different than OWH and yet getting admiration for something he didn't ever do.

He also wanted to learn english. (my H is swiss, he cannot speak english) .
My H also wanted to learn how to work with the PC. He was never interested in it.

All of a sudden he wanted to do so many new things. Things that he was never into. This really confused me even though I must say, I was happy about what he wanted to do and I encouraged him to do them.

At times we would talk about our dreams and we'd really enjoy ourselves. I noticed that the fog was lifting. But once in awhile he did get very demanding. He wanted to be able to go out with friends. He said female friends. He had never done that before, this was completely strange for me.
He wanted me to know that if he felt like going out with female friends (for a drink or just to talk, NO SEX) he should have the freedom to do this and I wouldn't be tolerant if I didn't let him.
He had talked to a friend of ours, she deals professionally with marraige and partner problems. She had told him that she goes out with male friends once in awhile and that this is normal.
These males that she goes out with are groups of men and women and they have things to discuss about their work and the different problems.

He misunderstood this and demanded that he should also have this freedom. I then told him "NO WAY!" I will not accept this!!!! He at that time had a real tandrem!!!!!!(his inner child was freaking out)

I stayed calm, but persistent. I had only made 2 points very clear to him. No contact with OW and NO going out with any OW!!!!!

I'm sorry, this is getting long and I'm yacking.

Just to make it short now. This took altogether about 5 weeks until my H's mind "unfogged".
He has never asked to go out with any OW and would actually be embarrassed to do this without me. He doesn't have a clue what was wrong with him at that time. He swares: This was not ME!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I think your H will be confused for a little while yet, but I also think he is out of the complete "foggy" state. He has lived with OW and he has gotten to know her from all sides. Their affair has died a normal death and he has decided that he wants you.

It is going to be hard for both of you, yes, for sure but he sounds as if he is really wanting this to work!! It's great that he has suggested to get help. It's great that he is showing responsibility. I'm so happy for you.
Let him do the work that needs to be done, just let him know that you are there if he needs help. Keep up with a great "Plan A". Show him the best of you.

Your patience is overwhelming. 18 months of waiting. As he has already told you, he's having a problem with this already. This is very confusing for him and after what he has done, he knows now what a great "woman" you are!!!

So I'd say go on and keep up the good work. Be prowd of yourself and keep your head up high.
Stay calm and yet set your bouderies. You will have time later to talk about the details. Don't pressure him, let him make the steps. Just give him the feeling that it's comfortable for him being with you and that you're his best friend.

take care
BB

As always, thank you Blondblossom, for sharing your story, etc.

I haven't asked and I don't know if he has contacted OW, that's what I'm afraid of, because I'm sure he has. The time will come when he says he wants to work on us (if he does) that I will give my boundaries. Right now, when he contacts me, I am trying to Plan A him, I've been really good at no LB's, but I want him to know that he can trust me with his heart.

I haven't heard from him since I gave him the information about therapists, I'm hoping he did not think I was shoving Steve down his throat, but he asked the question first. I did not have a solution about this other therapists being on our plan, so I gave an alternative. To me it seems like solution oriented therapy??

I have been looking for information on the therapists, unfortunately I can't find her exact credentials. She is listed under the Family and marriage therapists in the phone book but that doesn't mean she is actually licensed in it. it only shows PHD at the end of her name.

I have concerns about him going to a therapist I don't know anything about, not that I want to control him, but I don't want them to tell us that too much damage has been done like the first and only therapist we visited right after he left (before I found out about OW)

I agree on the chosing the right therapist. Our first therapist after our first d-day was horrible, he was definately not pro marriage. Plus I think he had some really weird ideas.
Our next therapist practiced the Harville Hendricks principals. She was far better. So definately do a background check.
You are in my thoughts.
Hugs,
Layli

I think it is said , sp? amagio therapist... anyone know what I mean... i think these are good, and def. CALL MB and ask for someone who knows mb in your area... get an answer. OTher therapists may not necc. understand... call the therapist and ask how they feel about putting a marriage back together after a long affair and living apart, and also about flex. to try mb techniques.. I.e. the questionnaires are awesome... have ya'll tried them?

Good luck sweetie. h <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I have called MB twice, talked to two different people, they would not give me a recommendation, maybe just for my area???

I stuck a copy of the Emotional Needs Questionaire in the book that I gave him, I haven't asked him to fill it out yet, not trying to push, wait until he sounds more willing..then I will ask.

GC; 2 things I did. I called the therapists I found in YP and Internet and asked them some questions. Dr. Harley posts the right questions to ask in his article on choosing a therapist.

Another thing that worked was posting here on MB asking for referals to MB-like therapists in my area...I got 2 from here...

AND MB did have a few "Old" names from therapists who sttended their seminars. Told me then they were working on publishing a list, but I imagine that has all kinds of legal/endorsement complications...

I found this, which is interesting while on the subject of Affair Therapists. This is part of an affairs book review:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If marriage counselors were emergency room doctors, they would always be asking questions like, "We need to understand why you stepped in front of that car, and why the driver needed you to do it." If they were cardiologists, they would be asking, "We need to understand why you needed to occlude your arteries, and why your spouse wanted you to."

An article of faith, not a fact that anyone has discovered or theory that makes any logical sense, the notion that infidelity always reveals something about the marriage continues to impose on couples demands that no one in any other realm of health care would countenance.

That an affair has occurred obviously means that the marriage was vulnerable to an affair--that the pattern of marital interaction allowed for an affair to happen. That does not mean that the affair is a function of that pattern.

Nothing ever makes an individual trustworthy except his or her own good character. An affair need not show anything wrong with the marriage, but it ALWAYS shows unreliable character--a person who does not keep promises and engages in deceit is (by definition)unreliable. If you are the betrayer, you will never become a reliable partner without reforming the moral callousness that enabled you to use betrayal to make yourself feel better. If you are the betrayed, you make a serious mistake in believing that anything you can do will make your partner more reliable. Yes, you might be able to decrease the partner's unhappiness; but then you will have taken responsibility for keeping the partner happy enough that he or she won't do what they should never be willing to do anyway.

I've seen marriages destroyed by well-meaning therapists who convince partners that something is wrong with the marriage, when there isn't, really--when some individual therapy or moral education for the betrayer could have saved the marriage. I've seen therapists ratify the betrayed person's broken sense of self by telling them they had a role in bringing it on themselves, thus forever warping their understanding of themselves and of the moral demands of marriage.

All in the name of a dogma-both partners contribute-that makes no scientific or logical sense.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

And an even better one:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> “Well-Meaning Therapists" in chapter 1 of "Divorce Remedy" by Michelle Weiner-Davis</strong>
(It starts on page 29).

This is where Michelle describes the problems traditional therapists have in dealing with affairs, and the whole chapter is devoted to all the different people who might be a part of your life who influence these situations, usually in the wrong manner, and lead to divorce. The section is called "The Divorce Trap"...very good stuff about therapists, and how NOT to listen to well-meaning friends & family.

Reading this, and my experience with 2 traditional family therapists, convinced me that the only way to go are "Infidelity Experts"; Harley people, Weiner-Davis people, etc. there's probably others too.

2 short excerpts:
quote:

...Although it may seem strange, the whole premise upon which traditional therapy is based may not be conducive to helping people work out problems when the going gets tough. For instance, therapists are trained to encourage people to pursue the parts of their lives that will bring personal happiness and satisfaction, even if these goals are at odds with what's best for the marriage, the children, or even the individual in question in the long run. The therapist wants you to feel good and do whatever it takes to make that happen.

quote:

Another significant aspect of therapists' training that makes marriage preservation more challenging is the idea that in order to solve problems, people must first understand what caused the problems. What this means is that if a couple is having marital difficulties, instead of helping the couple identify things the can do immediately to feel closer and more connected, many therapists first gather lots of information about how each spouse was raised. This is unfortunate because research shows that the average time a couple experiences problems before initiating therapy is six years! Six years! So by the time most couples seek help, they are in desperate need of answers. They don't need to become experts on why they are stuck! If therapy fails to offer an immediate sense of relief or hope that solutions are possible, most couples become more despondent and more likely to throw in the towel.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I have been doing a little research, found a therapist that was listed in our insurance network and a member of AAMFT, she just called me back and I "interviewed her"

No particular order:

She told me she asks the therapee on what their goal is and wants one of the following answers:
1. do they want to save their marriage
2. do they want to end their marriage
3. don't know

that gave me a red flag there.

I asked if she knew about Harley and started mentioning books he had written, she had never heard of him.
I gave a brief sunopsis of the Harley principles, about emotional needs, love busters. She said "yes, I try to identify what each individual wants in life from their partner, but sometimes I find that they married for the wrong reasons and have different goals, that it would never work.

Asked her success rate with infidelity, she said about 50/50.

Well, needless to say, if I can "convince" my husband to call Steve, he's getting my money, I don't care if it costs twice as much.

Update:

I hadn't heard from WH since he had sent me the email asking about therapists and our insurance. I was good, only sent him the email back and that was it.

WH just called me at home, when I answered, he said really sweet, "Hey sweetheart", so I replied back, "Hey Sweetheart!". Anyway, he told me he was just calling, checking in, since he hasn't actually "spoken" to me since Saturday. He was telling me about the bad deal about trying to trade his car in, etc. I then asked if my email about the therapists and insurance made since, he said yes, but hasn't had a chance to call yet. He told me that "his head was starting to clear". Hmmm, I really wanted to say, fog go away!!. So I just said, well I'm glad, you're alot stronger than you think. He then told me that he really liked the email I sent him yesterday. He said he's been really busy golfing with his buddy and stuff trying to not "think" about the situation all the time. He then told me, that he admits hit, that he does miss OW, then he went on to say that he missed me the last 18 months while he has been with her, that's why he never pursued the divorce. I thanked him for telling me that. Few other things, here and there, but a very pleasant conversation.

So here's my take on Plan A (a strong Plan A, no chasing, no begging, no pleading, no LBing, improve yourself): Act like a friend to your spouse. This is how most affairs start right? Be a friend and just listen. Don't push your views on them, just listen. Let them know you are there, let them know they can trust you totally with their fragile heart. Now hopefully, if he decides to work this out, we start in good terms, he will know that my boundaries I set are in good intentions for our marriage, not to hurt him.

Does that make sense?? Maybe 3rd time will be a charm this time. His first try was right after D-Day, second try was a year ago. Now here we go again, but I feel like I am in more control right now. I know what my beliefs are and I will stick by them.

Hi!
it makes complete sence what you have written and it sounds like you are getting into the first little step of recovery. Take it slowly though and don't push.
He really might still be having contact with OW. She too might be trying to Plan A him without knowing it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> (sorry, I don't want you hurt, but this might be possible)

Do you know of any opputunity to spend maybe a few hours together with him. Just a pleasent chat outside of the house??? Or maybe a walk in a park or a cup of coffee in a bistro (I don't know if you have them in the US?)........ just something comfortable and pleasant??? No relationsship talking just sharing a bit time together. I would say that these were our first little baby-steps into recovery.

I would just ask him if he would come with me. I never was needy nor was I begging. I would of accepted a "No" from his side, but this never happened. He always said yes and these times were always very pleasant for both of us.

I'm not sure if others will agree with what I am saying, but it didn't harm our relationship, it actually helped. We didn't do this very often at the beginning because I didn't want to pressure him and I didn't want to sound like I was begging him to be with me.
I would simply tell him that I'm going out for a cup of coffee, would you join in with me??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

take care
BB