I've read statements from many posters over the past week or so that indicate a lot of BS's (especially those who have been on this rocky road for quite some time) are feeling ambivilant and unsure they have any desire to recommit to their spouse or their marriage.

It made me think back to our situation. I was the ambivilent one for quite a while until push came to shove and it was basically "say goodbye forever" or "put your money where your mouth is". I was lucky I even had the choice...cause I wasn't sure I still would. I chose to put my money where my mouth was and back up my promises of commitment to the marriage with action. No more wishy washy "lets see how we feel" "lets give this a try" "I can't promise anything but I guess we can date" blah blah blah.... I think H was at the point of ambivilence...until he heard things and SAW ACTIONS that were very VERY different from the past couple of years.

So I understand your feelings of ambivilence while your WS's are still showing only minor signs (which all too often have proven to be false indications) of "deciding" to commit to the marriage or not. Why would you feel any different??

I just don't think it's the absolute indication that there is nothing left to be salvaged with your spouse. IF they "get it" and IF they truly commit to rebuilding with ACTION....those feelings can change. It seems like so many have fear as the only thing really standing in the way of recovery (usually the WS's). It takes a decision, it takes action. Waiting around trying to see if tomorrow will feel any different doesn't work. For us, we had to just jump in with both feet and no safety net. I'm glad we did!!

thanks hope, hey, you wanna tell my WH that!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

h4f,

I guess you could say I'm one of those ambivalent BS's. I'm at the point where I don't really care either way. I still believe wholeheartedly my W and I can make it if she ever "gets it" as you say, but I'm done waiting around for that to happen. The thought of being a single dad and starting over is scary, but offers some exciting possibilities. On the other hand, we really had something good once. Who knows what the future holds? Either way I'll be OK!

sad dad

I think H was at the point of ambivilence...until he heard things and SAW ACTIONS that were very VERY different from the past couple of years.

Well it's like the old saying goes 'actions speak louder than words' but unfortunately a lot of WS's that have told their BS's that they want to 'work' on the M, are only paying lip service and do not put the effort in doing so. Like you stated the "lets see how we feel" "lets give this a try" "I can't promise anything but I guess we can date" blah blah blah.... just goes to show the ignorance that many a WS(and BS)have regarding relationship dynamics.

I also beleive that the BS often is also to blame for the false recovery because s/he is so desperate to have the WS back, that s/he does not tell the WS that it's on probationary basis. I beleive it was Orchid that raised the bar on allowing her FWH to come back to the M. By making it easy for the WS to come back without asking for actions from him/her, the BS is denying the WS the appreciation that comes from working to acquire something of value and is it any wonder that the WS goes back to business as usual after the fear of being abandoned by the BS subsides? And the BS also looses a good way of measuring the true intent of the WS to come back to the M.

<small>[ August 22, 2002, 12:14 AM: Message edited by: TooMuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sad dad:
<strong>h4f,

I guess you could say I'm one of those ambivalent BS's. I'm at the point where I don't really care either way. I still believe wholeheartedly my W and I can make it if she ever "gets it" as you say, but I'm done waiting around for that to happen. The thought of being a single dad and starting over is scary, but offers some exciting possibilities. On the other hand, we really had something good once. Who knows what the future holds? Either way I'll be OK!

sad dad</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'd say I'm close to SadDad here, but I do agree with TMCM that the WS must be prepared to show serious committment with actions in order to attempt recovery.

h4f:

"It takes a decision, it takes action. Waiting around trying to see if tomorrow will feel any different doesn't work. For us, we had to just jump in with both feet and no safety net. I'm glad we did!!"

I'm feeling ambivalent. And yet my W has never left (not that she was HERE the past 12 years). She has actually said essentially "let's see if tomorrow will feel any different." She wanted me to "give it another 2 and a half years, and either renew our vows or separate around our 30th anniversary". Sheez! At least I stuck to my guns and said that I'd know long before then whether I wanted to stay M'd or not.

I need the action, and it's not happening. On the other hand, my ambivalence is what's kept me from doing the homework Steve assigned me to do. We're definitely busy, but that wouldn't take me an hour to complete...

of course we are ambivalent.... that's the step in the process I am in at the moment.

Pushing WW harder to force a choice? she could flip over the other side of the fence. that scares me.

Trying to force her to stop her EA? I dont know if she is strong enough to do it in the first place, and even if, there will still be the sweet smelling memories of the A in the background, the "what would had happened if"... because the A didnt run its course, didnt end in tears.

I'm NOT desperate to have her back. BUT I am giving it a try, because it's the right thing to do for our daughter, for her, for me.

Now, that puts me indeed in a situation where I am easily fed lines and easily manipulated. The smallest fart from her I am reading as a positive sign. Wishful thinking. Only to be disappointed time and time again.

I think this will go on - until I am truly fed up. Then, I'm ready for plan B. I thought I was already there.... but not yet.

hope--

Thanks for posting this...my post yesterday indicated my ambivalance at this point. I think it's one thing to feel this while the A is going on and another (where I am) to feel it after the A and there is still no commitment from the WS...

sad dad wrote exactly what I would have...

I have asked my WW if she thinks that some day she will wake up and find the passion, desire and love she once had and she has said she hopes that will happen...I guess I don't think it will happen that way.

"jumping in with both feet" is scary but I am willing to try it, but I sure want a partner to be with me, you know?

I do know that after going thru a false recovery where there was no plan and commitment won't work...been there and done that...

Thanks again for the post...I admire your commitmenat and your posts as a former WS are very important to all of us...you have valuable insight, please keep offering it...

Thanks again

E

I guess that I'm one of the "ambivalent" ones.

It's hard NOT to be this way, when the WS shows absolutely NO signs of reconciliation.

I was one of the "unlucky" ones, in the sense that my WW never really did "fence-sit". Beginning at D-day, the WW withdrew TOTALLY from me. She made it a point, in a lot of ways, to show and tell me that the OM was what she wanted. I was dropped from her life completely for over 2 months. I had considered myself in a Plan B, but that was actually irrelevant because she offered no signs of contacting me. She spent nearly every day with OM. She was POSITIVE he was what she wanted. She was sure it WASN'T me.

I would think it's a lot different scenario when the WS is either still at home, or...at least still communicating with the BS. One can at least see some hope in the sense that since the WS is still in the BS's life, there is SOMETHING to work with. It may not be much, but I think since the WS remains, that in itself shows the "fence-sitting".

My WW severed our R completely. She actually did MORE damage to our R AFTER D-day, instead of the A being the primary culprit. Within 2 weeks of her leaving, I experienced what it was like for her to TOTALLY ignore my presence in public places. I truly know the meaning of "cold". She could be around me and never acknowledge that I was there. Within 3 weeks of D-day, she filed for Dv.

She never waffled. It was totally obvious that she wanted OM. Myself, and everyone else got the impression that she was acting as though she never was married.

I know what it's like to be told that she KNEW she was in love with OM and not me. I have felt the sting of remarks such as "I was intimate with you for the past 2 years only because of obligation". "I was thinking of OM when we had SF". "I felt more like I was cheating on HIM rather than on YOU". "You are no longer attractive to me". These exchanges did not come about as a result of arguments.

When I would comment that I thought she was making decisions rather hastily, such as the rush to DV, she would remark that she had made her decision 2 years ago. She had just tried to ignore it, but decided that she no longer could.

It's hard to keep trying after this. During this entire time she reiterated over and over again that it would be useless to try to even think about repairing our R. As hard as I tried, and I really tried, I could not find ONE thing to work with. She had shot all of them down.

When people come here to post as a WS, or a potential WS, they are often advised to use their head instead of their heart. Exactly what I had to do. No different. My heart would have kept up enduring all this punishment. My head couldn't, because I had to survive. My quality of life had rapidly deteriorated. I was affected in that my occupation was suffering, my health was suffering, and the overall well-being of me was greatly reduced.

Even though she had technically "detached" physically from me, I also had to detach in order to maintain my sanity. Other people were dependent on me. Other people's safety was dependent on my being able to make accurate decisions. Did I desire to detach? No. But my situation was spiraling downward quickly, and I had to grab myself by my bootstraps and try to perservere.

Right now, I would be content to be able to just go back to D-day, and hope to change things that have happened since then. God knows I wished that my sitch had been like most of the ones that I read, in that the WS is either unsure, or keeps one foot in the door, and the BS at least sees SOME sort of chance. Like I said...when I confronted my WW, and I did do it in a non-argumentative way, her immediate response was "OK...now you know. We're through. Adios...Goodbye".

Last week she, on her own, came to me. Emotional. Showing signs of remorse. Even sort of apologized for the first time. Spoke about the "prospects" of repairing or M. I was apprehensive at first. But...she came over the next night. And the next. I began to think "She is starting to 'get it'." Was I stupid to believe that? I don't know, but I haven't heard a peep out of her since. Looks like to me that since the OM is out of the picture now, that she came to see if I was "still there", got her answer, and we are back to square one.

I'm sorry, but 4 months of Hell has hardened me somewhat. Especially since I see NO progress. Just false ideas. The pain was too great.

HCII

OOPS!

Double post...

<small>[ August 22, 2002, 07:53 AM: Message edited by: hcii ]</small>

hcii

I agree that you have had it a lot worse than many of us here. It is hard to hear the stuffthat spews from them in the throes of the A and stil feel any love for them...but somehow we do...

My WW kind of parallels what you wrote in the second to last 'graf.

It seems like they test the water a little and then for some reason...fear, guilt...whatever they pull back...my WW has done that several times. I still don't know what to make of it...

Anyway, keep your head up & good luck

E

<small>[ August 22, 2002, 08:08 AM: Message edited by: Elad ]</small>

Have any of you reached the point that you were so fed up and actually said, "This is how it is, either you come back and make a committment to this marriage, or I am filing for divorce. I can't take anymore of this being in limbo."?

If so, how did it go? Somedays I feel that I am at this point, that I just can't take it any longer. But I don't know if I am strong enough to go on if WW says ok, file for divorce and get it over with.

Just curious to hear what anyone out there has to say.

For what it's worth, I have felt for some time that it would be too negative and unsettling for me to "wait forever" to move on, really move on.
It may not come to pass, but I decided to go to Plan B, give it 3 months, and if we're not headed to a recovery I feel secure about, I'd file for D and just move on.
It doesn't mean I don't love her, or that I don't wish for recovery someday, it's that I feel I could not live with the uncertainty for so long. Maybe it's because I've lived with the active affair for a year, maybe it's because I like to have things a bit more "defined" than many, I'm not sure.
But I'd divorce and feel like I would REALLY move on, and would. If something happens later on, we'd see what develops.

2510, actually we were divorcing and only a couple of weeks away from our court date where the fat lady would have sung. While I had entertained thoughts of dating once we were divorced and possibly getting together again one day...the reality of the impending court date woke me up a bit. My H then said "either you're married to me or you aren't". I think it was the fact that he was at the point where he wasn't afraid to lose me anymore so he told it like he saw it. FINALLY!! I chose to remain his wife, called the lawyer and put the Dv on hold and moved back in with him shortly thereafter.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Have any of you reached the point that you were so fed up and actually said, "This is how it is, either you come back and make a committment to this marriage, or I am filing for divorce. I can't take anymore of this being in limbo."?

If so, how did it go? Somedays I feel that I am at this point, that I just can't take it any longer. But I don't know if I am strong enough to go on if WW says ok, file for divorce and get it over with.

Just curious to hear what anyone out there has to say. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2510,

Whe my WW filed for Dv back at the 1st of June, she was going about it at full speed ahead. We had been physically separated for just over a month. She had even remarked that she could have the DV in a matter of days. Here, the only requirement for Dv, with no children involved, is no cohabitation for 60 days. She was prepared to swear that we had no SF for the 30 days prior to that, in order to make the DV imminent. That, though, would have been a lie.

Recently, she has slowed down the DV considerably. Just last week there was a hearing to determine if the DV should be granted to her immediately, and divide the property later (bifurcation). She, nor her counsel, showed up. I was granted judgement in my favor. No DV, yet.

This took place last week when she began to come around. I asked her about it, and she told me that she had nothing to do with her attorney not being there. BullHockey! Even though SHE did not have to be there, or I neither, I think I am smart enough to know that her counsel would not have filed that motion on her behalf, and then drop the matter without consulting her. If, he did, she better find another attorney, I would think.

Anyway, if I were to tell her today that I would agree to the DV, I truly believe that she would jump on it. That way, since to me it is obvious that she is "thinking", I am the bad guy. She would then be able to tell everyone that even though she filed, she had decided to slow it down, but I wanted it now. I think she may be approaching the state that H4F was at. But...I believe that an ultimatum would backfire on me. (Or be what I want, depending on my mood at the time <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> ).

So...there it is in a nutshell, where I am now. I just still don't know exactly where "there" is.

HCII

....ya can't clap with one hand.

WAT:

"ya can't clap with one hand"

Actually, I can! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> But I can't show you over the internet.

hcii:

I would argue that your W coming over 3 times last week IS progress, if somewhat pitiful progress. It may or may not be enough in the long term, but it is progress.

Whether you file or not or sign the DV papers or not is entirely up to you and should be done for YOU. Forget how she feels about it, or whether she feels justified in labeling you the bad guy. Your family and friends know the score (not that scores are important in life, either).

Ambivalence is a real problem for me. It's sinister, like an EA. It creeps up on you. Before I know it, I find myself dwelling on made-up conversations about divvying up our property and getting out of Dodge (not that I live in Dodge, mind you). Reality is something else entirely. And in my case, maybe the complexity of my family/house/job situation will turn out to be a blessing in disguise. This way, I can't just throw in the towel without giving it and the consequences of the possible choices a lot of thought. ...and at least my chutney's got the requisite number of mangos!

H4F,

Am I correct in assuming that you, the WS, were the one to file for DV?

I could probably go back and read your original posts, but hey....I'm all spent right now...

HCII

Yes, I was. H and I had tried many times to work things out and had always wound up at the same point...we figured the only thing left to do was file. I didn't for the longest time until H asked me why I hadn't. I came up with a no money excuse. Well...a while after that H let me know that if we weren't going to be married, we needed to be getting divorced. So, I found a lawyer and started the proceedings. I never did anything very quickly...drug my feet the entire time. I was one of those WS's who just was NEVER sure....you're WW sounds like one of those afraid to change their mind so they move ahead as quickly as possible. That doesn't mean she was sure...she was high and didn't want to lose that feeling to something like guilt or doubt.

h4f:

You put into words what I had been unable to, regarding why hcii's W is behaving the way she is. My W has a tendency to do that kind of thing, too (though thankfully she hasn't filed! ...yet).

When she was a young teenager, her favorite dog got picked up by the pound. She didn't even hear about it until it was too late to save the dog. Since then, she's been afraid to get close to pets (and people, it turns out) for fear of losing them. If I were to go to plan B, she'd try to get on without me almost MORE out of spite than anything else, I'm betting. Too afraid to give love for fear of being hurt. So, having a false-intimacy with Rat Meat seemed to be the best solution at the time, I guess. Vicious cycle.

<small>[ August 22, 2002, 07:17 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>