</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by brokenhearted:
<strong>Hi Space,
I just re-read your reply and just wanted to emphasize to you that I vented here and not to my kids. They have no idea how upset I am. Thanks again for your post, I appreciate your advice!
BH</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know. I understand and feel your pain, and I'm sorry.

I just think we need to be extra-neutral with our kids in these things. I, too have struggled with that in my case, but realize their mother is always going to be their mother, and they will love her, no matter what she does. And I think that's the way it should be.

Nellie , I do understand what you are saying and I will think about sitting down with them and discussing the whole mess. They will be home tomorrow afternoon/evening, so I have some time to weigh out my options. Thanks Nellie.. you make some very valid points!

Buffy - It is hard to believe he can be so cruel. Julie used to be a substitute teacher, now she is a substitute wife and trying to be a substitute mother! It is nice to hear that sometimes the WS realizes that there is nothing like the real thing!

BTDT - Thanks...I hope I can get through this one too. They do resent my sister when she makes comments about their Dad (which she has done a few times). They know what he did was horrible, but they still love him. At some point, I am sure they will confront him too. Maybe there is a way to let them know how I feel in a way that doesn't make them feel guilty or put them in the middle.

It is all so confusing. I have a lot to think about before tomorrow.

As I see it right now, I could
1. put on a happy face and not let them now their "vacation"
hurt me or.
2. sit down with them when they get home and let them know exactly how I am feeling about their going
3. sit tight and wait to see if the opportunity presents itself to express my hurt to them.

Well, I will weigh out the options and try to figure this out. Thanks so much everyone for your support, opinions and advice. I appreciate your help!

BH

I just re-read my first post, and I thought I should clarify something. They left on Wednesday for this "vacation". When I was first told about this trip, my son asked my YD something about going to Maine w/ Dad. I asked him when they were going and he told me Wednesday to Saturday. Later on that night, through a phone conversation between YD and OW, I found out they were all going! This was Tuesday night. They left Wednesday! I had no clue they were all going and had no time to get used to the thought of them going. So, Wednesday I spent the day upset and angry. By Thursday, I needed to vent! Just wanted to let you all know that they are there right now. So, I can't change anything. The damage is done. Now I just have to decide if I should or shouldn't tell them how much it hurt me. Sorry for not making that clear in the initial post. I am not thinking too clearly!! Sometimes I feel like I am losing my mind!!
BH

<small>[ August 23, 2002, 10:38 AM: Message edited by: brokenhearted ]</small>

IMO,

No matter how you look at it, to have asked those chidren to NOT go simply because it would have been hurtful to brokenhearted is asking them to choose between parents. They can "choose" not to go and in essence "choose" Mom....or they can "choose" to go and "choose" Dad. To children no matter what age (imo) it is asking them which one they LOVE most. Mom or Dad? This is a position that no child should ever be placed in. Brokenhearted knows what is right and wrong and who is right and who has been wronged. She does not need the children to validate that by taking sides. She is the greater parent, morally. She knows that beyond a shadow of a doubt and she does not have to beat the character of her WS down with the kids in order to place herself higher. She is already higher. The children will accept it in their own time and act accordingly. God forbid that she say or do something that would estrange them from their father resulting in animosities later down the road. They would give her all the blame and Dad would come out God-like in their eyes.

And about the comment from Nellie about why wouldn't broken tell them something that was hurting her , can only be summed up by this .....

"Cause that it is what MOTHERS do". Mothers bear the hurt that would otherwise be given to the kids. We would take a bullet for them....we would bear the pain and hurt also. You put your own hurt and pain aside to do what is best for your children. It is something that mothers do...plain and simple. We bear it and then never ever mention it. (We don't lament about it later in life to them either.) We just accept it as something that we did for them because of the intense love that we have for them. They will figure it all out on their own. And, they will thank brokenhearted later for allowing them to make that discovery on their own.

If they do pop up with the question as to why she did not tell them, she can simply tell them that she was allowing them to make the discovery and decision for themselves. She was not going to influence that by her feelings being voiced. They needed to decide for themselves with no outside forces.

As always, JMHO

<small>[ August 23, 2002, 11:32 AM: Message edited by: committedandlovingit ]</small>

Thank you committed! Well said! You really hit the nail on the head. I would never do anything intentionally to hurt my children and telling them would most likely cause them to suffer. As a mother, I could never put them in a position to choose between us. It just wouldn't be fair to them. Nellie's response does make sense for certain situations, but I just don't think I could handle giving them more pain and confusion right now. So thank you for response and helping me to make the right decision.
BH

If I were about to do something that would hurt my mother, and she pretended that it didn't, I would be furious with her. I am still upset that she pretended she didn't mind taking me to feed the pigeons when she was terrified of birds. I know she had good intentions, but I felt that she was being deceptive - and that is obviously a much more minor incident. Mothers do NOT present false fronts to their children. I do NOT agree that that is something mothers should do.

This has nothing to do with which parent they love the most. This is about taking other people's feelings into consideration. There are lots of places you shouldn't go with your father, because they are inappropriate, inconsiderate, or for a variety of other reasons. What if, in a family that was raised in a religion that forbid gambling, the kids were invited to Vegas by a father who had left the family. If they chose not to go because they knew it would hurt the mother, would that mean they don't love the father as much as the mother? Of course not. Of course the children will still love their father - but loving someone does not mean you should condone their wrongful actions. As a matter of fact, it means the exact opposite.Sometimes if you love someone, you have to do whatever you can to discourage him from going down the wrong path, and you sure as heck don't have to accompany him on his journey.

I do not believe that spending time with the OW in the family vacation spot can in ANY way be construed as being what is "best for the children." What is best for the children is encouraging them to form a strong moral code.

One of the most important things to teach children is that loving someone does not mean going along with whatever they want, even if it is wrong, nor does it mean staying silent when they are doing something wrong, nor does it mean acting like everything is fine when it is not just to keep the peace.

One does not let children "discover for themselves" that hitting, or not sharing, or stealing, or any of a variety of other actions are wrong. Responsible parents specifically teach their children, by word and by example, that such things are wrong. Perhaps the children will not heed their parents, but at least the parents will have done their best to instill strong values.

Bh,

I just lost what I wrote,

I lost it again, well I will try again in the morning,

sorry you are hurting & good luck when the kids come home

Nellie1;
Well said!

Brokenhearted..

I am so sorry for the continued pain...it is though, my opinion that your husband as yet to sit back and process ANY of his responsibility in his actions of the recent past...that he remains quite fogged in...

And that people who can't sit and just "be"...because it just might be a little to painful...this is the guy who snuck around with the neighbor in the bushes...this is the guy who had some pretty volatile interactions...while you maintained grace and sanity....even while letting in the pain little by little so as it can't overwhelm you...Oh it will hurt...but it can't kill you...

sightseeing is a great way to avoid life...as is constantly wanting others around so it is not just the two and all the issues they have created....

hold tight...I don't think this has come to a head at all....

While your children love him they are also now aware of him being capable of becoming a stranger...and that there is a sense of not abandoning him in case old dad returns...you left because it was wize and had to be done for your sanity...they will hang in for many reasons...and none are meant to hurt you...they know "think" you are the strong and still sane one....dad on the other hand...not so sure...

hold tight friend.

peace to your new home...and may it soon be filling up with warm times and memories...
ARK

Nellie,

We ARE talking about "choosing". That is what it
would be asking the children to do. "Choose" which person to go with. This is not a case of "hitting" either. Anytime physical abuse and sexual abuse come into play things change. Yes, you tell the children in order to spare them from possibly being harmed in the same way. God, you tell the authorities so that NO ONE can ever be harmed by what the WS has done. You cannot report him for infidelities. It is something that he did that is morally wrong but not wrong as far as the law taking action. To compare the two would be comparing apples to oranges...imo.
It is not being deceptive to take your child to feed the birds when you are scared of them. It is putting your own need aside to place your childs above it. I know, I am terrified of birds but how could I have not taken my wonderful son to feed the birds when he LOVED it. We were in Vatican City....BIRDS BIRDS BIRDS. He loved it and I grinned and bore it. He is 17 now and remembers that fondly. "Remember Mom...when you took me to feed the birds?" I have photos that I cherish but also cringe when I look at them.

BTW....we let our children discover for themselves ALL the time. Again, we are not talking about touching a hot stove, running with scissors (gawd, remember that warning?)or what happens when people drink and drive. We are talking about letting them form their own opinion about their father and his moral behavior. You cannot form it for them or force feed it down their throat. It will backfire.

I am a firm believer in taking the High Road...besides the scenery is so much better.

As Always, JMHO.

brokenhearted,

I think it was inappropropriate of your WH to invite the OW to a place you once shared with him. This is a matter that needs to be taken up with him, not the kids.

The kids are simply going to the cabin on an outing as they are so used to doing. They will notice all by themselves that someone (YOU) is missing from the picture. They may not feel so comfortable going there again without you.

The kids can't be made to choose sides or be made to feel guilty for sharing time with their dad and the OW. After all you are separated and they now live together in a home they purchased together. D is pending it seems.

If you were to invite your childrens friends with you on an outing it would be no different. The pain it seems comes from them going to the cabin...a place you and your WH once shared together. Take it up with him, not the kids. It's not their intent to hurt you. Your WH however, is very insensitive to your feelings over this matter. He has apparently not even considered how you would feel about this.

Had they all gone someplace neutral would you feel the same way?

Committed,

Infidelity IS illegal in my state, as well as in many others - not that whether or not is illegal is relevant to whether it is wrong. You did not address the gambling analogy - gambling is obviously not illegal in Las Vegas, but that doesn't mean that it is not immoral.

I think it is very disrespectful to talk about "letting children form their own opinions" - as if we had any choice in the matter. Children will form their own opinions whether you let them or not. Responsible parents do NOT keep quiet is the face of wrong-doing - it is our responsibility to try to point out the difference between wrong and right - and it matters not if the person in question is their father, their sibling, or a stranger.

I guess you should consider yourself lucky that your son remembers feeding the birds fondly - I, on the other hand, feel slightly resentful that my mother was not honest about her feelings. I never wanted to be treated like a mushroom, and I won't treat my kids in a way that I would not have wanted to be treated.

The children are NOT being asked to choose whether to spend time with their father - they could certainly tell their father that they would be happy to go with him somewhere else, or without the OW, or under whatever conditions they chose to specify. Their father would then be the one choosing whether to spend time with his children under the appropriate boundaries.

Nellie - Your opinions have given me a lot to think about and I appreciate your sharing them with me. I believe there is a fine line here. Because of the age of my children, obviously they are well aware of the situation and the immorality of it. They chose to go there anyway. Whether or not they enjoy it is another story. I truly feel that if I burden them with my despair of them going, it will just give them more pain and confusion. They have already suffered enough. However, if they come right out and ask me how I feel, I would be honest with them. In that situation, I would not lie. I don't feel I am lying by not coming out and telling them exactly how I feel. Deep down, they know. My children actually did say to their father in the beginning that they would not see him if she was with him. So for awhile that is how they handled it. When and how that arrangement changed, I don't know. All of a sudden, the kids were going to their house for a visit, then spending the night, now this. How old are you children? Just curious if you have ever been in a situation when you had to make a choice similar and how they handled the radical honesty. Thanks again for sharing your opinions with me. As you can imagine, I have thought about nothing else for the last few days!

sing I look forward to hearing your opinion! Don't you just hate that!

ark Thank you! I love my new home and most of the time I feel like I am healing. You are absolutely right about the children being afraid of losing their father. They love him regardless of what he has done...unconditional love. They probably feel that if they don't go they will be replaced w/ her kids. What a mess.

Committed - Although Nellie makes some valid points, I have to agree that it would be making the choose. Like I said in my reply to nellie, there is a fine line. In this situation, I don't think it would be wise to tell my kids how I feel about their going. I am sure deep down, they know and feel bad enough. I think you are right when you say that we can't form opinions for our children. They know already and nothing I say is going to change how they feel. I would just be making it more difficult on them. Trust me, I have given this so much thought these past few days. Your opinions, Nellies, and everyone else, have helped me realize the right thing to do. so...thank you!

ba I probably would feel the same way even if they all went some place neutral. The reason is this....I know her and I know her children and the thought of my family and her family bonding as one wherever they were would be hard for me to deal with. The fact that they are at our summer place just makes it that much harder. I do intend to take it up with my H when they get back. I will never understand why he didn't let me know his plans, especially since I have custody of my son and would think he should get permission to take him. He has been insensitive to my feelings for quite a long time now. Divorce is pending.

To all - Thanks for sharing your opinions and advice with me. I have given a lot of thought to everyone's comments.

Nellie and Committed your opinions and advice were conflicting, but it helped me to analyze the choices I had and I thank you both.

phew, long post!
BH

But those days will get fewer and fewer and one day they'll cease to exist and every day will be a new beginning! Now if I could get myself to believe that!

brokenhearted,

Our six kids ranged from barely 3 to 18 when my H left us going on 4 years ago. I had no choice about him introducing the younger ones to the OW, since he didn't bother to tell me, or them, that he was going to do so ahead of time. However, I deeply regret allowing the kids to visit their father with her present - I received bad legal advice, and found out later that I could have prevented him from doing so as long as we were married.

Of my two oldest, one has not spoken to him since the night he left - she figured out he was having an affair as soon as he left, before I figured it out. The other barely speaks to him. Neither one has ever met the OW. The younger ones visit him on those rare occasions when he allows it. He does not allow them to visit simultaneously, since, as he admits, they annoy the OW. The kids know that I understand that they love their father, that I love their father and always will. When they are about to do something hurtful, I certainly tell them. Except for the youngest, who is still kind of clueless, they are well aware that their father was unfaithful, and that infidelity is wrong.

Wow, Nellie, six kids! God bless you. You must have had your hands full! I just don't understand how the WS can be so insensitive. I know they are in a fog, but come on!

I had planned on not saying anything about how hurt I was, but that plan went out the window.
They came home about an hour ago. Walked in and informed me they were going to Winthrop for the night and then tomorrow they are going to visit Dad again in Saugus. Well, it was more than I could handle. I started crying and my daughter was asking me why I was getting so upset and was this going to happen every time they went with them. So, with that I told her exactly how I was feeling. I made it clear to her that I wasn't trying to make her feel bad or forcing her to choose between me and her father, but that I needed her to understand my feelings. We had a nice talk. They both seemed to understand what I was saying and tried to reassure me. My son was there too but he didn't really say much. Before the conversation started he did say "Mom, I didn't even talk to Julie the whole time I was there." (go vincent!!) They just left a few minutes ago. I can't stop crying even though I know the talk went well. I just feel so sad. Thanks for the help in trying to figure this out. You know what they say about the best-laid plans!
BH

Hello BH,

I have been following the story of the trip to visit H and OW. What a lousy situation! I am glad that the opportunity arose for you to talk to your daughters. They need to hear how you really feel, how their father's choices have affected you.

I suspect that they WANT to believe that you are OK because that way they can pretend that the situation is not really so bad after all. It would be easier for them that way, a sort of emotional self-defense.

Has either one of your daughters said why they are intent on spending more time with H and OW? I wonder if they are taking the pulse, so to speak, of the relationship. You have said, haven't you, that they have known Julie for years. It is hard for me to believe that they condone what she and their father are doing. Surely they realize that she is responsible for causing terrible grief for your family.

I think that their respect for you will continue to grow as they watch the grace with which you handle an outrageous insult. Now that they realize the hurt you continue to experience, they have to respect your class. As they mature, maybe their understanding will too.

I wish that things were different for you! Take care of yourself.

Estes

Hi Estes,
Thanks for your response. My daughters and my son have all said that they want a relationship with their father and spending an hour or two with him just isn't good enough. He used to take them out to eat or to a game room or drive around. I guess they just felt if they were going to have a better relationship w/ him, they had to give in and visit at his house even if she is there. My son won't talk to her. My oldest daughter is living there but stays in her room (which is a small room in the basement) most of the day and has very little dealings w/ her. (she wasn't here for this conversation tonight) My youngest daughter does talk to her but finds it awkward. the last time she was at their house, she spent a good deal of time in the hot tub w/ her (which was hard to take!) You are probably right about the emotional self-defense. They have known and loved Julie for years. We were all were very close. I think that is why it is so hard for all of us to know how to behave. She has been part of all our lives for so long and now she is just the cause of so much pain and turmoil. At least they know how I feel now. They still went but they are not sleeping at his house tomorrow night as planned (tonight they are sleeping at friends). So some good came out of it! Thanks Estes.

Hi- It sounds like you have 3 GREAT kids! It makes me so sad to hear that some (please read- not ALL- I respect a great many WS on this forum!) inflict on their children when they have an affair. Funny hoe so many think they can compartmentalize everything and it just can't be done in a family. Everyone is affected by everyone else. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

That being said, this situation if you are really open and honest about it and it sounds like you are, could be a great learning experience for your kids- what to AVOID when they get married and have children of their own! Not sure how to do this myself- I don't have kids- but I bet others on this site have some great ideas about that. Prob. most important thing is to provide as much stability for them as possible, so they know even if their dad is off his rocker, YOU will always be there to care for them. I admire your strength!!!

Hi Libbie,
Yup, they are great kids! I wish they didn't have to go through this. You're right, it affects so many people and they seem to be oblivious to it. Julie actually said to me once that their affair had nothing to do with me and they both loved me so much...makes you warm and cuddly all over doesn't it!! Unbelievable! I try to be as stable as I can be. The one time I remember not being stable was the night she kicked my H out of her house and then broke in to my house looking for him. I definately was not stable that night! LOL! But, most of the time I think I succeed. Even tonight, I think I handled the conversation fairly rationally. I didn't get hysterical, but I cried and explained how I felt in a calm tone. Even though it wasn't what I planned on, I am glad it turned out the way it did. Thanks for the support Libbie!
BH