Fog, Fog, Fog; nothing but fog!
I met w/my W this morning as planned, exchanged a few pleasantries, the kids, etc.

She starts it of "So?" and I said "I'm here to listen; you called me to meet, didn't you?"
W: "Yes, so what are we going to do?"
SC: "What do you want to do?"
W: "I don't know. Look, the R with the OM is over, I don't know what to tell you. It was over before, when we talked in March or so, and then I was stupid enough to let it start again when he called me. But now it's really over."
SC: "Ok, it's good to hear that."
W: "Look, you've always focused on that letter you want me to write, and I don't think that's the problem. The OM is not the problem."
SC: "The OM is part of the problem. I know we have many problems, and we have to address them, but he IS part of the problem. A big part of the problem for me."
W: "Why? you saw that I didn't end the R so you went and ended it for me!"
SC: "I'm sorry? You think I ended it? What are you talking about?"
W: "So how come you knew they didn't let me in when I went last month?, you told me you knew."
SC: "I told you I knew you went, not that they didn't let you in. Look, there are a lot of things that we need to talk about, but now is not the time to get into those. There will be time for that later. Many things that I know, and that I did, and didn't do."
W: "So what do you want to talk about?"
SC: "Why don't we talk about what we want?"
W: "I don't know what I want, what do you want?"
SC: "I want us to try to rebuild our M, I want us to put all of these hurts and angers and frustrations aside for a minute, to stop blaming, and to committ to working on our M."
W: "And how are we going to do that? Is that what you really want?"
SC: "I think I've said it more times than I can remember, and I've shown it in more ways than I can imagine, that that is what I want to do."
W: "Look, I never meant to hurt you, or to do anything bad to you, I really didn't. But I don't think you'll ever believe that. You'll never forgive me."
SC: "I KNOW that. If I didn't believe that I wouldn't be here. Look, I know we both have hurt each other in many ways, some that we know, some that we don't know, but I am sure that neither of us ever did ANY of that with the desire to hurt or knowing that it would hurt. We need to accept that and decide if we want to work on all that, understand it, change it, process it."
W: "You just say that, but I haven't seen the changes to show me that."
SC: "I'm sorry you feel that way, because I have worked hard to understand many of the things I did and change them, and I know there are more, and I will work on them as we discover them and understand them. If we focus on whose fault it is or who is more at fault, or who did what, we'll never get beyond that. It's not about winning or losing, it's about deciding to fix our marriage or not. And if we don't, the only loser is our M. I can forgive, I can change, I think I already have changed many things. Can you?"
W: "So what do we need to do that?"
SC: "We need to want to do it, and we need to commit to doing it."
W: "So what do you want me to do?"
SC: "Well, you need to end the R with the OM, and you need to demonstrate it in a credible way; we need to ensure that it stays that way, we need to set rules about what we do if say, he calls you again. We need to commit to total honesty with each other, and we need to commit to working on our marriage."
W: "Well, I don't think he's the problem, and you keep insisting that he is. We have many more problems."
SC: "I know we do, and that's what I said, but how can we start working on those if I still feel he's around? If I still feel your love and emotional connection is not here with me? We need to be completely honest with each other. Most of our problems have come because we weren't honest; honest about what we felt and what we wanted and needed. For many reasons we weren't doing that, so neither of us knew what the other wanted or how to give it."
W: "I need more time."
SC: "More time..."
W: "I don't know what I want in my life, thse two weeks you've been gone I have just been relaxing for the first time in a long time, I haven't even started to think about what I want. I'm not sure I love you the way I should, and I don't know if we'll ever be able to make it better again. I think you did the right thing in leaving."
SC: "I understand that. I'm not sure how much more time I have to give. I lived with this for nearly a year, and it's too painful, I know there are no guarantees, but we can't wait to see if it's going to work before we decide to try to make it work. If we do that, it'll never work."
W: "I understand that, but I need more time, I'm not sure what I want."
SC: "I'm not sure either, but I know I want to try to make us work, and I'm ready to do that; I've been ready to do that for a long time. I don't know if I can wait anymore."
W: "Are you coming tonight?" (to our weekly family dinner, MIL, SILs, BIL, etc.)
SC: "I don't think so."
W: "Why? You don't feel like it?"
SC: "Look, I know you probably think that I left to punish you or something. But I didn't. Please understand that being with you is very painful for me. It really is. It's painful becasue the woman that I love is shared with another man, and that really hurts me. That is the reason."

And that was pretty much it. I didn't see anything that indicated any new or different posture in anything, or any real desire to face the realities and do something about them. I know I probably "educated her" too much, but she apparently had nothing to say...all she did was ask me what I thought, she didn't say what she really thought or wanted or was willing to do....

I have a call with Steve at 2; we'll see what he says...losing hope.

<small>[ August 25, 2002, 07:08 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Spacecase:
<strong>Fog, Fog, Fog; nothing but fog!
I met w/my W this morning as planned, exchanged a few pleasantries, the kids, etc.

<snip>

I have a call with Steve at 2; we'll see what he says...losing hope.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oi! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I haven't posted to it, but I've been reading your thread. I was really rooting for you. I'm so sorry she can't see what a great thing she has.

((((((((((((Spaceguy))))))))))))))))))

AARRRRGGGGGG! I couldn't be more frustrate/angry for you than if it were me in the conversation! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> As you said, Fog, Fog, Fog; nothing but Fog. If it matters, I think you handled it GREAT!!! You are a great teacher for me, the neophyte! If you need to talk, let me know via my e-mail account - I check it several times a day.

The Brat on the Northside.

I think we need Orchid's interpretation here ... this is so sad.

Hang in there SC .... Hang in!

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

SC,
{{{{{{{{Spacecase}}}}}}}}

I've been anxious to see your update.

This may not make you feel better, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> , but that went about how I expected it would. I HOPED it would go different. But she sounds pretty typical.

Listen, it's not over yet, K? You still have your call with Steve, and Plan B ready to go. She truly may need more time, and you're going to give it to her! You're not filing D tomorrow, and I SERIOUSLY doubt she will either.

I know you're pretty low right now. That's OK. Vent it out, cry, punch some pillows... this sux, and I'm SO sorry it went like that. The GOOD NEWS is that she doesn't know what she wants! Yes! My XH and I had a several conversations where he wanted OUT! Period. Talk about me losing hope!!! duh!!! At least she's confused. So you have a chance, K? Plan B is going to protect YOU so you can protect the CHANCE that still exists for your marriage.

Yep, you might've educated her a lil bit, but I think you did fine. She clearly had her chance to get on board, and hasn't taken it. SHe's still "trying to do things her way", and it won't work.

{{{{{{{{{{{Spacecase}}}}}}}}}}

{{{{{Space}}}}}

I hear FOG - not the fat lady! One step at a time...talk to Steve.

spacecase,

I have read a few of your threads and I am not all to familiar with all these concepts, but the comment that I would find the most upsetting would be the one about her finally being able to relax. And, she seemed to think it was because you were not there.

It appears that she has developed somewhat of a comfort level the past 2 weeks alone. Was she not close to frantic about you being gone the first time she talked to SH after you left? Now she feels that you did the right thing in leaving? That might be because she was not quite sure if she was going to have a drastic change in her comfort level. She still feels as if she can rely on you to help out there and participate in the normal functioning of the household.(Making note of the comment about you coming over tonight as every other Friday night.) Maybe that was the reason that she was so shocked when you informed her (after fixing the pc) that she needed to start seeking other ways of having those things taken care of. It does not sound like she was upset at the idea of you possibly not returning, but something a bit more selfish. As in....... What??? What do you mean??? Why can't you live somewhere else and still let me rely on you 100% to take care of everything that I need taken care ? You mean you are not going to continue to do all these things for me so that I won't have to be responsible for anything? Duh...you are supposed to do the "husband" things. (Conveniently forgetting about the "wife" things.) Boy, you got some nerve! Yada Yada Yada....blah...blah...blah.

I guess a good solid Plan B is bound to shake the ground that she walks on. She needs a taste of reality. She is still clueless as to what lies ahead for her. I would not worry too terribly much about it being a setback, afterall, she has not even begun to see a Plan B. That could be just what she needs in order to wake up.

It reminds me of my teenage daughter (19) who decided that she did not need to get a job as long as I was opening my wallet to her. Once I stopped contributing and enabling her she had no choice. But she would not have lived and learned had I not been the one to put her on her feet in that direction.

As always, JMHO

Dear SC,

I just dropped by from the pregnancy/child forum. I know some, but not all of your history.

I don't think this bit applies exactly to your wife, but I will tie it in in a minute. Have you read anything about the walk-away wife syndrome? I think that it is part of the Divorce Busting site by Weiner-Davis. Apparently after a few years of trying to fix a marriage, some wives will just clam up. The H thinks "Great, she's not harping at me. She must be happy finally." What she is is shut down and biding her time. She is waiting for her chance to walk. She walks and suddenly the H (who thought things had finally gotten better) is suddenly willing to work on the marriage. She has reached her limit. She is saying too little, too late.

Weiner-Davis says that women are often very content and relaxed in the first few weeks after a separation. They are away from the stress of the marriage. What they haven't realized is that they have signed up for the stresses of single life, especially the stresses of single motherhood. (I don't remember if you have children.)

Plan B might give her that taste of single life--on without you in it at all. She will have to solve everyone of her problems on her own. If you go to Plan B, don't go to her rescue.

I wish you luck,
MJ

Hang in there SC,

I think you did a fine job of educating her. Seemed that you kept your cool, explained how you felt about things, and set a boundry or two. Not too bad in my opinion.

I won't suggest Plan B to you. I can't give that advice when I couldn't do it myself. But, if you do go that route it should be a major shock to her comfort zone. If she was being honest about the two weeks of just taking it easy and relaxing then it may not help her at all. But then again Plan B is not for her. Remember that.

I wish you the best in whatever you deside to do from here.

jd

Dear Space:

I am sorry it did not go as you hoped. It is not unexpected however, you said it yourself you expected to be in a full Plan B. Lets see if SH puts you there.

Yes you did appear to lead the conversation however from what you wrote you were left no choice. Your W still appears frightened and closed.

It is interesting how you are to blame for her inability to get into the prison. Still classic WS.

Please try and relax and take care of you. There is still a way to go in this marathon.

I will pray for you and your family Space.

Have you heard on your interview?

All my best

Jack

SC,

She may very well be right... she does need some more time.

In fact, after 2-3 months of Plan B, she might sound a whole lot different, or at least starting to change her tune...

Speaking from my personal experience, it sounds VERY similar to what MaryJanes described: WW felt "free" and "happy" for about the first 6 weeks of separation... but she hit the "wall" at about the 6 week mark. That's when I think she started to fall apart moreso. The time, plus my trip, etc.

Now look at what she sends me today, in response to my suggesting we have another "chat" to continue the discussion we began earlier in the week:

Yes, I'm still willing to talk. But in a way that is healthy for both of us. Our sanity is important.

I hope you have a really good day.

Love,
WW

Wow, she says "OUR" and "both of us". Getting there!

The point being that I'm 10 weeks into this separation thing, of which the first 6 were pretty solid Plan B.

(((((spacecase))))

You sounded like you really handled the conversation well. Perhaps her "freedom" from you will make her rethink what she's missing, especially with the awesome impression you left her!! can't write much now, looking forward to see what Steve says!

Spacecase:

Just wanted to share a few thoughts with you...when my H finally moved out (I was the WW)...I was so relieved..and felt so much better than I had in a long long long time..that I took it as 'proof' that I had either made the right decision..or that I was headed in the right direction for the first time in a long time...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> W: "I don't know what I want in my life, thse two weeks you've been gone I have just been relaxing for the first time in a long time, I haven't even started to think about what I want. I'm not sure I love you the way I should, and I don't know if we'll ever be able to make it better again. I think you did the right thing in leaving." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In one of the books that I read early on in my separation it said this was a typical reaction to having to not 'deal with' the spouse and all the associated marital issues...that many took it as a sign that the decision to separate was the right decision..but that the feeling of relief would rapidly evaporate and that the initial feeling should not be used as a predictor of long term reality.

I am going to look for this book..it was written by one of the more well-known christian marriage/relationship authors (male)...the wording in the book was actually much more eloquent and to the point..and boy was it ever true! I felt so good when the separation first started...I was almost giddy sometimes..and then would get depressed..and call my H..and then was giddy..and would ignore my H..and so forth..and so on...

I am sorry for your disappointment today...and ever more sorry for your pain...I wish I could help in some way...I know you are possibly tired of just keeping up the effort..and reading this book..and that book..and looking/hoping/praying for a magic bullet.. (I apologize if I have gotten any of this wrong in your situation...I know you were not expecting a quick fix at this point...but I know that the human heart has a way of hoping...even when the head says "don't get too excited..."...)

One of the books that had the greatest impact on me as a WS...when I was right in the middle of my A...before the bottom fell out of it..so..this was when I was still 'riding the high' of the A..was a book called "When Love Dies"...the picture it painted of an affair..and the impact on kids...and what happens when you divorce..and marry the OP...made me fall to my knees in pain...it was the only thing..almost..during the whole time...that ever penetrated the proverbial 'fog'...this does not go to say that what worked for me...will work for other WS's..but my God..that book hit me hard..and made me think..and thinking is a neglected..arduous task for any WS in the heat of an affair..it was hard to dedicated any live..still functioning brain cells to the task <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I really didn't like 'thinking' too much..because then I might have to come to the conclusion that my behavior was wrong..and boy, I didn't wanna go there...

Well, I wish I could say something that would ease your hurt...I will keep you in my prayers..

Hugs,

YR

Sc:

What you said here was very, very deep and important:

SC: "I understand that. I'm not sure how much more time I have to give. I lived with this for nearly a year, and it's too painful, I know there are no guarantees, but we can't wait to see if it's going to work before we decide to try to make it work. If we do that, it'll never work."

It reminds me of the chapter in PM about nobody is prepared for M. M prepares you for being M'd.

Oddly, my W and I had this same attitude before we got M'd, and when we decided to start a family. I wonder if she remembers when we said, in response to a nay-sayer: "If we wait until we can afford to get M'd to GET M'd, we'll never do it." Our first apartment was a one-bedroom, about 300 square feet, for $165/month, including utilities. I was a pump jocky at an Exxon station ("the sign of the double cross"), making $2.00/hr. My W made about $6/hr as a waitress with tips, but she only worked part time. My VW van had over 100K miles on it, and her buick was falling apart, needed a new engine and a new top, and had MORE miles on it. We were both trying to finish college.

I enjoyed those early years very much.

Give us an update SC of your phone conversation with Steve. I would think it is time to deliver the official letter. She probably won't "get" it for a little while. A typical WS reaction to Plan B is "whoo hooo, I'm free, this is the life..." but it will get old soon enough. Not sure how soon. Most of them take advantage of a BS in Plan A and Plan B can be quite shocking when the reality of what is actually happening sets in. She is still on the fence and in the fog. I think your doing a great job. Your conversation with her sounds good. Plus your are clearly seeing the "fog" for what it is. Some BS's feel so confused about the "fog" talk. Really "the fog" is the only logical explanation for it.

Sorry your going through this. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

SC,

By now you have talked with the man and have his take but I don't think your talk went that bad with our WW. You are most likely going Sing, you have really lost it this time, however listen to what she said: </font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">she has no clue what she wants</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">she enjoy being able to relax since you left, haven't you also enjoyed being able to relax a bit without worrying about the R all the time, now that you aren't living there.</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">she wanted to know if you be at the weekly dinner, to her you are still very much a part of her family</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think all those are very important.
Going to PLan B is to protect you & if she realizes she may finally lose you, well who knows.

Recovery takes a very long time. You have come along way in your personal recovery and that is one battle won.

Hang on & hope y'all are staying out of our daily storms, one is just hitting here.

not that I am <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> but I am <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> to see the <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> graemlin back, so I just had to use it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I am SO frustrated!!!!!!!!! I feel like whacking my W, whacking Steve, and just chucking it all out the frigging window into this dreadful storm going on outside!!!!!!

I was preparing for the call with Steve, when I receive an email from my W, about how disappointed she is in our conversation, that she had hoped I'd see things from her point of view, and just a slew of all her usual complaints, justifications, accusations, and just more fog.

At the same time, I was trying to read the board, and I just lost it. Started crying, couldn't stop...all of my old friends, and new friends, and even many folks I'd never heard of saying they'd been following my story...and everyone expressing their solidarity. Thank you, really, I mean that from the bottom of my torn-up heart...I'll come back later...can't do this right now...

So sorry space <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> ...you're wife is very very lost right now. One day she will eat her words and it will make her ill. Take care of yourself...try to do something productive even if you don't want to...go eat an ice cream sundae.

((((SPACECASE)))).

We are all here for you when you are ready. It is so natural for you to feel this way, you are on the longest emotional roller coaster of your life.
You may feel weak right now, but you are one of the strongest men I know, you have just worked out way too much, and you need a little rest. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Yes, we are here whenever you need us. Be alone if you want - but you know we're here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I vote for an ice cream sundae too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Eat one for me cuz I can't!