Wonderful! I have several very thoughful and stimulating posts to read, think about, and respond to!

In the meantime, I wanted to post the email exchange my W and I had after our "meeting" on Friday, because I'm sure many will derive insight and "messages" from them that I am not able to see for myself.

I apologize if they sound a bit "odd" but that's probably because I translated them from Spanish, which is our native tongue and the language my W and I use to communicate most of the time.

This is her email to me, about an hour or so after our meeting concluded:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> SC;
After our conversation today, I was left with a bitter taste in my mouth. Regardless of what you might say, what I feel and how I feel is this:

For many years we lived as 2 friends in the same house, sharing part of our life and the children's education. For many years, and I'm referring as far back as when we lived in (city), you and I did not have much to do with each other. We both neglected our relationship and we both followed our interests on our own, you abandoned me in many ways, and I did the same to you, and we never did anything about it.

Now that everything is in the open, and looks so bleak, I'd like you to evaluate what our life together has been and to see what you want and what you can do. I can't ask you to change radically, and you can't ask me to either. What I do know is that I would love to have many things I've never had, and that I may never be able to have.

It hurts me terribly to see that now, when all of this came out, is when you decide that you do want to be with me and are willing to make changes. This makes me feel like I didn't mean much to you before. But what IS true is that at the house things were always pretty much taken care of, I always supported you in good times and bad, I always put my shoulder in to help. I was never the woman who said "OK, support me, I don't care what's going on." Yes, I have been irresponsible in many things, but to put it simply, I'm tired of so many restrictions; everything was "no, we can't do it now, we can't spend". Well, it never was the right time, but even worse, you never seemed to try. Unfortunately, you've never been a rich man, and that's not what I'm asking for, but I want you to also see that I never abandoned everything either.

On the other hand, I've always been interested in your things, in your life. Even now that you're not here, at least I ask you how your things are going, you never did it, you never asked me about my things, my work, my business, and every time I wanted to talk to you about it, it was a pain for you, I even feel that now. I finally separated from my partner, and the only thing you said was "very good, it's about time." I have always felt negativity on your part for me and my things. Generally whatever I do is not good, or is not good enough for your standards, as if everything you did was always right, and generally, you end up being right, and I end up being wrong. Unfortunately, and this IS relevant, I always received negative things at home growing up, and I know this is not your fault, and I am terribly tired of always receiving rejection!!!

You ask me why I don't talk, why I don't share? That's how you made me become, since what I said was not important. But of course, your things were always important, your work, your problems or conflicts at work, and I always sat down and listened to them. Well, now it's difficult for me to express myself with you and I generally do a bad job of it since I no longer know how to do it.

Having you here at home for a year without doing much, and I understand your situation, your desperation at no finding work, your depression because of all our problems, but what does that show me? What does that mean to us as a family? (SC, honestly I'm venting I need to bring out a lot of things I have inside!) My feeling that I was being watched and my every move scrutinized all the time. Yes I made the mistake, I had the affair, I was the bad wife, and bad mother in the eyes of our children because of you, and in the eyes of the world since I was the one who went outside the boundaries! That's a fact and you can't change it, honestly, and as you can see, I have too much inside to be able to get myself together again, and a million guilty feelings due to my relationship.

I wanted to try to talk to you in a good way today, try to see if I can release myself from so many things, and I know that it's the same on your end, to see if while separated we can find some way to come together, yesterday I thought of us having dinner together, to spend some fun time together, but I see that will not be possible. I thought maybe we could start a new and different relationship between the two of us.

I need time, how much time I don't know because I am not in a condition to make a decision today, I'm really sorry, I need to detox and to try to look at things more. I know you don't believe me, but the R with OM had ended, and I'm willing to demonstrate it, just not today, please understand, I am still full of bad stuff inside! That is my reality.

Lastly, I want to reiterate that I never meant to harm you, you OR our children, I never meant to hurt you, I know that what I did will not disappear, and I ask you to forgive me. I also know that you have been hurt by many things, and I know you cannot wait indefinitely, I only ask that you take this time we're apart to think, to perhaps see things from another point of view, and to try to see each of us in a better light.

You know that I do love you!

Ms. SC
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is my response to her about 3-4 hours later. This is actually the second version; the first was an angry vent that I never sent!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> W,
I understand that this is how you feel, and what you feel I cannot change. Like you, I have a long list of complaints and bitter feelings the same as yours. But I don't think it's useful to start exchanging complaints and faults.

I know that because of my personality, and probably because of my frustrations, I created and environment where you did not feel safe to tell me what you really felt and thought, for fear of my reaction or my rejection of your feelings. And I'm sorry; it was not my intent, and I know that perhaps it is the first thing I have to change.

Likewise, your permanent demands, and difficulty in finding solutions that were reasonable and balanced for both of us and our family, led me to distance myself from you and to do my things on my own.

Inevitably, we both stopped being honest with each other; incapable of saying what we really felt, you due to fear, me due to frustration, and thus we stopped sending each other the signals that we both needed to satisfy one another's needs and to make each other happy. The very person we each loved more than any other in the world.

We can spend months going back and forth with this, discussing who said what and when, who did what first, and this will take us nowhere. Only to maintain the impasse we are currently in.

The question, the ONLY question, is if we are willing to try to do something about all this, and correct the mistakes, or not. If we're willing to make the sacrifices that making a commitment to that entails.

From my end, I am and have been willing to do it for a long time. The only thing I need in order to be able to do that is to feel that I can trust you, that you are telling me the truth, and that your emotional committment is with me, and only with me. You already know what needs to happen to achieve that. Unfortunately, you have never told me what YOU need in order for this to happen, nor have you been willing to try to accomodate my needs in this. And while this situatuion persists, it will be impossible to start down the road towards the future that I believe we can have together.

You know that I love you, I've always loved you, and I always will.

SC </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

<small>[ August 25, 2002, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

Aww...SC...

Here is the thing that I ALWAYS hesitate about on this board...

As a WS...I do have a unique perspective..like all the other WS's....and I know many insightful BS's on this board...who can 'hear' what a WS is really trying to say...

I am just afraid of giving my 'take' on it sometimes...on what the WS is trying to say...and how what a BS has said..was really interpreted....because..what if I'm wrong? or way off base? My heart has been aching for you so much...I am just blown away by how incredible you are...and how you have handled things...

I am not in a really good place right now...or I probably would attempt to give you my opinion on what she was saying..and how what you sent back to her was taken...but I will tell you this:

When I read your wife's email...I was sobbing...because I 'heard' her...and my heart connected with what she was saying...I wish you both lived in Fort Worth...and that she and I could get together...I think that if she could pair up..and surround herself with others in her situation..who are truly committed to no contact with the OP...maybe she could believe that someone would understand and hear her for once..that she would feel safe while she tries to move forward...also, as they say...you can't 'con a con...'...ya know?

I'm not saying that this is the answer to anything...I just understand some of the things that she has been saying...and the 'dance' that she is doing....

Also, please remember that you have had months and months of experience in getting to where you are...you have taken the time to educate yourself about all of this...and have everyone here to support you, educate you, and share with...your WS is out there...with little in the way of good coping skills/mechanisms. I'm not saying that she doesn't have access...or that you would not help...but sometimes...what is suggested here..in how to talk/phrase things, etc...and how to focus..still comes across as another language totally to a WS...especially in long term marriages where communication...true honest communication has been almost non-existent. As WS's...especially with our guilt driving us..we are always looking for the hidden meaning in what you 'really said'...and the diff between what you really said..and what we are 'choosing to hear'...is scary sometimes.

SC - You give me hope...that there are good men out there..men who are willing to change...men who truly love their wives...

Regards,

YR

Well, YR, I would REALLY appreciate your "Take" on what she said, and on how she took what I said...I really would!

Perhaps somehow you and my W may get a chance to talk...I'm sure that would be good for her. I'd offered her before, when ashirley offered, but that was months ago and she didn't take me up on it.

SC-

Wow. I know everyone is saying the same thing - that you have been through so much and are so strong. All I can add is to keep it up, even though it is hard, don't destroy what you have built up until now with LBs. Also keep in mind that you have come a long way in learning things over the months. Your W has not.

Reading what your W said to you was very interesting (btw, my W is also a latina.) I'm not sure what advice or insight I can give you though.

My W told me once (last year) when we were fighting (before she admitted feelings for OM) that the attention I'm not giving her she will get from somewhere else. At the time I got mad etc... but didn't take her seriously (thought she was just saying it to hurt me but didn't mean it because we were fighting and people say things they don't mean when they are angry).

Since the full-blown A, my W has reminded me of what she said then (her logic is that my lack of a response to meet her needs/pay attention justifies her A. And since now I'm willing to change, it is too little too late (walk away wife syndrome.) I also get the (fog A-talk) I'm not capable of meeting her needs/ connecting on a special level with her like OM does because I'm not latino but OM is.)

As for what to do, and if they ever change. I don't know (that is what SH is for!) For me I think just being there for my W (even as a friend but still showing changes in myself) until A dies is the answer (i.e. Plan A) for now.

For you, you've been in Plan A for some time so Plan B may be in order (I believe SH thinks Plan B is an option for M's that have children, mine does not so I don't think it is an automatic after 6 months of Plan A for me.)

As for those feelings you've been getting since you've been on your own. I've had/have them too. Normal? good? bad? I don't know. I do know that they are feelings and not actions.

I've been separated since April. If/when you do go to Plan B, perhaps you should act like you are divorced and do things for yourself (except for the dating other people part.)

In the months to come, be prepared for sad feelings too (when you think about or are reminded about W.) Being apart has its advantageous (your W is not LBing you) but is also lonely at times as well as sad because over time the M and/or Love will die completely if WS does not act.

One thing that I keep reminding myself lately is a quote from this website:

"It's very important for you to leave her before you do or say things that will upset her. You will not be able to compete head-to-head with her lover indefinitely. Your Taker will finally convince you that your happiness lies elsewhere. So leave while you still have the ability to express your care for her."

SC,
I think that your W's email to you is a positive thing in that she is finally opening up and telling you how she FEELS.

I feel exactly the way your wife says she feels, only I'm the BS...but your wife is lucky (and doesn't yet fully realize it); you are willing to work hard to close the distance between you, while my H, although no longer cheating, seems to be content with maintaining emotional distance between us. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I don't post a whole lot, except to whine...but I want you to know that, while I root for all of us to heal our marriages, I'm in the bleachers cheering you on!\
LC

hmmm...sounds like some honesty going on <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Slow down, SC. I thought her letter was excellent, and pretty much explains her "privacy" issue - which we already figured out. now you hear it in her own words.

Just do nothing. Sit. Think. Listen. You don't have to DO anything.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Posted by hcii
<strong>I don't know whether it's good, bad, or normal either, but can tell you that I feel the EXACT same way.
So, it's probably normal. At least I hope so. One thing that it does show me, and probably shows you, is now we are concentrating more on US, than on the WW's. And that is the stage that we told we needed to be in, right? Concentrating on us. It allows us to "detach", but yet cause the WW to really sense us detaching. Sort of a double-edged sword for the WW.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">hc, I think you're right. I'm certainly feeling VERY detached, and it scares me a bit, as I still have that nagging feeling that I have made mistakes, and that maybe one or several of those mistakes will cause my M to end when I should have been able to save it.

On the other hand, sometimes I feel like it might be for the best, since I see such a rift between us, and SO many issues, that I wonder if we will ever be able to come together on so many things.

Time will tell, I guess. I just hope that my "timetable" and hers somehow manage to meet at some point. It'd be sad if we miss the opportunity just becasue we cannot "coordinate" the time factor where we're both ready at one time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by BrambleRose:
<strong>hmmm...sounds like some honesty going on <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Slow down, SC. I thought her letter was excellent, and pretty much explains her "privacy" issue - which we already figured out. now you hear it in her own words.

Just do nothing. Sit. Think. Listen. You don't have to DO anything.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you think my response was OK, or did I alienate her more?

You are extemely intense. Gotta relax in your tone with her...

You did ask her what she needs - but it was almost an afterthought.

Has she filled out the ENQ?

One thing lept out:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What I do know is that I would love to have many things I've never had, and that I may never be able to have.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What are those things? You need to find out.

It also sounds like she has a high need for conversation, and she'd like to be appreciated for her contribution to the family.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Perfect_day:
<strong>Hey Spacecase U r doing great! ... my take on this is that this 3 way conversation with Steve is going to be one of 3 things either 1.W will have second thoughts about the session (cause she will feel cornered, right now especially if everytime she has told steve she will do one thing & then does another she will know he's onto her so to speak)

Or 2.you will go to plan B on Steves advise or 3.W will try & delay things even more & want to keep sitting on the fence for a while longer (although I would think she would be getting mighty uncomfortable sitting on there by now! not to mention the splinters that will be accumulating in her backside!!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks PD! I appreciate the support!
I imagine she will just say she's not ready yet, and I think there's nothing we can do about that right now. Steve, I'm sure, will agree.
Reality is that we cannot "force" anything to happen.
The question is, what do I do in the meantime? Full Plan B will be seen by her as "pressure", but not doing it will make me look like I'm waffling, perhaps giving her LESS incentive to start deciding what she wants and is willing to do...I don't know.
She has always had great difficulty with making tough decisions...it takes her FOREVER...drives me NUTS!!! But that's how she is...no 2 ways about it!

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Anyway I think she is one lucky gal to have you so in love with her that you are enduring all of this pain & if she don't want ya then get yaself over here! (just jokin of course)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Rats! Please just don't tell me you're in Australia!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> (Looooong way from Texas!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
So a big deep breath for the counselling session, we are all sitting by our computers waiting for your next post..CHIN UP YOU CAN DO THIS!!!!!!! & HOORAY FOR STEVE HARLEY HE IS THE BEST.. he still laughs every time I have my session with him because of the odd hours I have to call because of the time difference the last tiime it was 3am here!!!! hows that for dedication 2 a marriage!! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Happy for the support and encouragement, thanks so much! And that IS dedication to a M!!! You Go, girl!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Extremely_confused:
<strong>SC,

Here&#8217;s how things appear to me with my very limited knowledge.

There are a myriad of possibilities for why your W may feel a need to hide things.

Yes, she could be still in A mode. That is a definite possibility. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm starting to think that maybe, just maybe, the A might be over, or close to over. The only bad thing about that is that if it is, it ended for a reason external to her/his desire to do it, so there will be lingering regret, anger at me since she thinks I caused it...who knows!

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
But that is not the only possibility. She could also feel that the two of you wouldn&#8217;t recover if you knew everything and that would break the last thread that is holding you two together. Who she was pre-A may be very different than who she is today. Her inner child may be even more hurt now as a result of the bad choices she made and possibly some bad choices you made in handling the aftermath. (I know I made some horrible mistakes post D-day.) So from her perspective she could be feeling less loveable and not worthy of your love as it is.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is a scary possibility, and all too real/possible. Lately I've begun to suspect there have been other As that I never found out about.

And I, like most other BSs, also did a lot of horrible, ignorant things when I first found out. Didn't discover MB or anything like it for several months.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
She could still be trying to &#8216;clean&#8217; up the aftermath of OM but with him in jail it&#8217;s dragging things out (ie. Maybe they have a joint account that she can&#8217;t close or some other such unpredictable thing) and she fears that you will misinterprete something.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is a distinct possibility. I know that he came to rely on her to take care of a lot of the "business" that needs taking care of for someone in prison, and no matter what, she's probably reluctant to "abandon" him without finding a "replacement" for doing that stuff. (I don't mean illegal stuff, just handling money, getting things for him, speaking with attorneys, etc.)
There could be many other possibilities as well.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Maybe her inner child cannot handle the feeling of being told what to do right now.

Or she might have a huge shadow around feeling forced to do things.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is true. Part of her "reluctance" has to do with this. She feels she's always "lost" when it came to discussions with me, and she's determined not to "lose" this time!!!

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
...Stay open-minded. The human mind is a complex thing and whatever or whyever she can&#8217;t share MIGHT not be a deal breaker for you. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am trying to. And I agree, not many things would be "deal breakers" for me in this area. Just the OM stuff for now, and re-building trust.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Let me ask you this....what if her secret is that she murdered someone? Would you love her and stand by her even if she made that catastrophic a mistake? Would it be easier for you to stand by her through that than some continued A info? If yes then what&#8217;s the difference? The difference is that one doesn&#8217;t make you feel less loved than the other. The murder is totally unrelated to you or you&#8217;d already know something about it. Therefore, it would trigger alot less of YOUR shadows....maybe none. If my sense about you is right, you love your W so much that you would sit in a courtroom every day in support of her. You would be not supporting murder as acceptable. You&#8217;d see that she made a mistake whatever the details. Would you be trying to allow or endorse murder? Nope. You would be accepting that she made a mistake and love her as she is. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are entirely correct in this. It would not be directly related to me, and I would stand by her without reserve.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I have never suggested you alter your boundaries. Again, it&#8217;s a change of perspective while honoring your boundaries that I&#8217;m focused on. NOTHING changes but your perspective. Love her just the way she is. So as for the question of if and when you should move back home, it was never my intention to try to forecast the future for you. I just want to apologize for misunderstanding that the question&#8217;s focus was on &#8220;where&#8221; while I was focused on &#8220;how&#8221;.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand, I was just trying to be practical. How would I transmit my "love you as you are" attitude while separated or in Plan B?

I can probably start "loving her as she is" now much more than before; now I understand many things better, and perhaps I can.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
SC, you are smart and getting wiser everyday. You are coming into your own and learning to face your own shadows. And as we learned on Kat&#8217;s thread, the more you reveal yourself to &#8216;wise&#8217; people (ie people who can love and accept you exactly as you are), the more truly loved you will feel yourself.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm trying, that's for sure. It's a big internal battle between "Intellect" and "Feelings", but Intellect is winning!

But then again, I have been relatively supported when revealing my weaknesses, while she feels she has not. So for me it's easier to do.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
The law of physics states clearly....you can&#8217;t give what you don&#8217;t have. That is what I sense your feeling as current constraints. You said [SC: &#8216;why would you think that I'd be able to do that? I'm afraid my LB$ is so low that I may not even be able to Plan B very long before I move on.&#8217; ] You did not feel loved enough yourself at that time, how could you possibly give it? Yes, you felt a conditional love...so did she. (see &#8216;will you marry me&#8217; example earlier in this thread). But my sense is that now you may just be starting to feel truly loved here. (Maybe I&#8217;m projecting that onto you because I feel it for myself. Please feel free to let me know if that is wrong.) If it is true, you can get your strength (love) here and share it with her. That is the difference.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'll tell you this; I may not be feeling more loved by her per se, but what I AM feeling is more love FOR her, as I have begun to discard some of the notions I had before by understanding what and how she feels better than I did before. Many of what I perceived to be her "irrational", or "illogical" or "unwarranted" feelings, I am now beginning to see as "warranted" under her circumstances, personality, and in light of my actions.
So perhaps, yes, I am more willing to give her credit for her feelings as I accept these things. So that, in a way, may manifest itself as more love for her.
And I certainly receive a lot of love here...no doubt!

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
And, the more loved we feel the more love we have to share with our S&#8217;s. &#8220;We can&#8217;t give what we don&#8217;t have.&#8221; Therefore continuing to work on ourselves is critical to our success because the more shadows we can discover and reveal, the more unconditionally loved we will feel. That&#8217;s not to say that we are revealing &#8216;all&#8217; overnight. You may be. I don&#8217;t have the courage to do that yet even though it&#8217;s what I want. I&#8217;m hoping soon and working hard to get there. We&#8217;ll both do it in our own time and at a speed that is exactly right for each of us. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I feel that I am, and I hope you will find the courage and stength to do the same: because it feels great!!!

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
But as BR said (I love that woman...she is soooooo wise), this is a learning process. Did you screw up by not doing this before? No, because &#8220;you can&#8217;t do what you don&#8217;t know&#8221; anymore than you can give what you don&#8217;t have. I didn&#8217;t do it either or my H wouldn&#8217;t have had his A. We learn as we go and we grow as long as we continue to ask questions and stay open minded. When the student is ready, the teacher appears.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Indeed! BR is a joy and a wonder!
And I do beat myself up when I realize I made a mistake I could have avoided by being more enlightened sooner; thus my famished desire to get, learn, understand, comprehend!

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
The bottom line&#8230;every person is completely unique making every M completely unique. There may be no value for you in what I&#8217;ve said.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do not believe this at all! I question it for the purpose of better understanding it, and to clarify my confusions so that I can properly process it. Not because I discard it, or because I reject the notion. On the contrary.[/QB][/QUOTE]

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
... You know what? That&#8217;s Ok. I make no judgement on what&#8217;s right or wrong for you. You know why? Because you, Mr. SC, are the most perfect Mr. SC I have every had the pleasure to chat with. I truly do admire your strength, your courage, your stamina and your dedication. You are one amazing man.

E_C </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I, too, do not make a judgment of you, EC, and I am trying to learn what you are asking me to learn so that I can do the same.

And although I appreciate the compliments, I am simply doing what any man should do for the M that he cherishes, and for the woman that he loves.

SC:

Boy! I'm supposed to be getting my presentations ready for next week, and fly out of town this afternoon, but this really has me captivated!!

Your W's letter says many of the things my W has said or otherwise indicated to me over the past months. It's absolutely amazing. Her privacy issues are very similar to your W's, though perhaps not as deep(?).

I note the most important thing I see here is that you are communicating in a way you never really did effectively before. It's harder to erupt into an argument via email than it is in person. That was what I guess I was trying to get at when I was away for a week and posting like mad to the forum. I was getting emails from my W that told me things she wouldn't say to me in person, and I was "given the chance" to respond to them thoughtfully, in time, in a way that I couldn't do very well in person. I think that would have worked as a "remote plan A" technique if I had stayed away, or had felt the need to leave again. Thankfully, I haven't. But I wonder if this might work to your benefit? Ask Steve.

On a light note: I made a funny this am. Yesterday, my W and I were walking through the house, talking about what we want to do ourselves, versus let the contractor do for us. We were in one of the bedrooms, looking at the original wallpaper in the closet (115 years old!), and I remarked "we have never had SF in HERE!" (I've been known to say that about various places we happen to be, to see if she's interested). Well, she WAS interested... ...so this am I said to her "You realize that we're closet heterosexuals now, don't you?" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Extremely_confused:
<strong>SC,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I've been thinking a lot about what my life would be like if my W and I divorced............ Is that...OK, normal, a bad sign, a good sign...any thoughts on this?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I had that exact same experience about two weeks ago so if it is for you, what it was for me, then you&#8217;re starting to FEEL the change! I&#8217;m so excited at that possibility that I can hardly type. (It&#8217;s very hard to type while you&#8217;re doing a jig!).</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are too funny, EC!!! ;-)

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
This may be such a good sign depending on what you choose to do with it. I think you may be finding the darkest dark that happens just before dawn.

Maybe you are coming to accept that if you love your W unconditionally then letting her go is the right thing to do. You know....&#8221;If you love something set it free. If it comes back it&#8217;s yours. If it doesn&#8217;t, it never was.&#8221;

And if you can love her enough to let her go, should she choose to, then maybe you can love her enough to accept her exactly as she is. (Just thinking out loud here...I wonder if that is why some people get back together after the D papers....they start to see that they really do NOT have control over another person or of changing the past and finally let go of that need to try to change what is not theirs to change. Don&#8217;t know...just thinking out loud.)

Maybe there is some kind of subconscious symbolism there around you letting go of the 'old' her (the her you wanted her to be) and being ready to love her for who she is today.

For many that feeling you describe would be the last fiddle playing but I sense from you that it&#8217;s your awakening. Your starting to get the deeper lesson of life here.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is truly a wonderful interpretation of those thoughts! Hope you're right!!!
I will ponder it.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
And I also sense that your W loves you so much but is paralyzed in fear so it's not too late from her side either.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree. I "feel" that she loves me still. Very much. She is struggling between that, and all the negative thoughts about me that she clung to in order to assuage her guilt. I believe now, perhaps for the first time in many months, that she is starting to see that much of those thoughts were not as real as she thought they were.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Let&#8217;s take worst case scenario and say she still loves OM. I believe you&#8217;re starting to understand what unconditional love is and the minute you start offering that to her, she will turn away from him in a heartbeat. As you become &#8216;love-based&#8217; rather than &#8216;protection-based&#8221; she will have NOTHING to go to him for. In fact, your M could end up being better than ever. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is a wonderful thought. So I'll ask again; how can I do this while separated or in Plan B?

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
...Maybe the two of you never had the type of love (Ulove) that leads to passion. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I believe we never really did.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
... I know I never felt as passionate about life as I do today. I feel free, alive, in love with everyone, and catch this....including H&#8217;s xOW!. No kidding! She&#8217;s human...she made mistakes....so did H.....so did I....so what? It&#8217;s 3 or 4 months post D-day for me and I am A-free!!! Nothing about it haunts me anymore.

I&#8217;m sure there are those out there that will say I&#8217;m in denial but you know what....if this is what denial FEELS like then COUNT ME IN!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think that as long as you are feeling it, it IS real. And if there's some denial in there...it will be processed and accepted.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I read BR&#8217;s thread on &#8220;Do you want to be right or do you want to be married?&#8221; today. SC, all the answers are in there. It all happens in your head but it can&#8217;t until you feel loved yourself. If you haven&#8217;t already, go back and read some of BR&#8217;s earlier posts in that thread. What power that woman writes with. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree; it's one of my FAVORITE threads, and I've read it many times, and I will do so again.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
In additon to her posts, here&#8217;s another out of the middle somewhere that spoke to me:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi BrambleRose,
After nearly three years of dealing with betrayal, I think I finally understand your question. When I first joined MB, one veteran in particular would often ask a new poster that very question, "Do you want to be right, or do you want to be married?" I just didn't get if for a LONG time! ... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>I entirely agree. And I, like most BSs, took a long time to realize that, in some ways I still am, but it also depends on the WS. As time passes, the WS also reaches a place where they can BEGIN to take the BS back, begin to believe again, or want to believe. So in a way, both have to reach the same conclusion; that they want to be married and not necessarily right.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But if you get nothing else out of this post, SC, hear this clearly. You have been one of the greatest teachers for me. I judge that you and I are at similar places regarding this life lesson, just a week or two apart. And in trying to express to you what I am learning right now I have managed to solidify all this in my own mind. It has been such a powerful gift from you.

Thank you for being here, for being so open about yourself and so willing to stay open to hearing new thoughts at a time when I really needed it.

E_C </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm glad, I thank you for expressing it, and for the time and effort you've invested to help educate me! I sense that you are just as courageous as you think I am, and you too have a lot the rest of us can learn from and be inspired to greater things by. A big, big HUG!!! ;-)

<small>[ August 25, 2002, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>SC:
Your W's letter says many of the things my W has said or otherwise indicated to me over the past months. It's absolutely amazing. Her privacy issues are very similar to your W's, though perhaps not as deep(?).

I note the most important thing I see here is that you are communicating in a way you never really did effectively before. It's harder to erupt into an argument via email than it is in person. That was what I guess I was trying to get at when I was away for a week and posting like mad to the forum. I was getting emails from my W that told me things she wouldn't say to me in person, and I was "given the chance" to respond to them thoughtfully, in time, in a way that I couldn't do very well in person. I think that would have worked as a "remote plan A" technique if I had stayed away, or had felt the need to leave again. Thankfully, I haven't. But I wonder if this might work to your benefit? Ask Steve.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You may be right. I WILL ask Steve. Wrote it down already.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
On a light note: I made a funny this am. Yesterday, my W and I were walking through the house, talking about what we want to do ourselves, versus let the contractor do for us. We were in one of the bedrooms, looking at the original wallpaper in the closet (115 years old!), and I remarked "we have never had SF in HERE!" (I've been known to say that about various places we happen to be, to see if she's interested). Well, she WAS interested... ...so this am I said to her "You realize that we're closet heterosexuals now, don't you?" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2L; you are a RIOT!!! If I said somehting like that to my W, she'd probably say "so what if we haven't had SF in there!?!?!"...good one, loved it!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by BrambleRose:
<strong>You are extemely intense. Gotta relax in your tone with her...

You did ask her what she needs - but it was almost an afterthought.

Has she filled out the ENQ?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess I've been SO focused on the end of the A, and all that part, that I tend to not pick up on the rest of it, just watching for signs of that. I need to get better at that.

I've asked what she wants to do and what she needs many, many times. She's never answered. She did fill out an ENQ, we started working on those with Steve, but then everything got side-tracked because of the "Privacy" thing that Steve wanted to deal with. So most of the sessions since then have been with her, and working on that. The "normal" process (ENQ, LBQ, etc. has been on hold for a while)

Although I have and did try to start meeting some of the needs she identified, but she doesn't see any of it, and for the most part, would not LET me do it either...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by BrambleRose:
<strong>One thing lept out:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What I do know is that I would love to have many things I've never had, and that I may never be able to have.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What are those things? You need to find out.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have no idea. She has evaded all questions about what she wants/needs/wishes for all along.
Maybe now she'll be willing to start...

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It also sounds like she has a high need for conversation, and she'd like to be appreciated for her contribution to the family. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This I knew, and I have tried to do it. Of course, the conversation has to be very light because she has been so reluctant. And she's being unfair about my not recognizing her contributions to the family...I've always done that...perhaps not enough.

That's I guess part of the frustration that makes me be so "Intense" (as you put it) she focuses on what she feels, accusations, finger-pointing, and in my view some of it undeserved, but never on hearing my POV on that, and worse; NEVER on what she wants us to do about it! It's like she feels the need to keep repeating the same things that she's used all along as justification for the A, and for blaming me for the A. She still does that, you know. Tells Steve it's all my fault that she had an affair!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lady Clueless:
<strong>SC,
I think that your W's email to you is a positive thing in that she is finally opening up and telling you how she FEELS.

I feel exactly the way your wife says she feels, only I'm the BS...but your wife is lucky (and doesn't yet fully realize it); you are willing to work hard to close the distance between you, while my H, although no longer cheating, seems to be content with maintaining emotional distance between us. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I don't post a whole lot, except to whine...but I want you to know that, while I root for all of us to heal our marriages, I'm in the bleachers cheering you on!\
LC</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LC; I agree, she IS opening up some. Happy about that.

I guess that, like me, you have to keep trying to get through to him, and hope that you can. Don't give up!

Thanks for your support! ;-)

SC:

"I've asked what she wants to do and what she needs many, many times. She's never answered. "

I did this a lot, too. She doesn't answer, either. Now that I've stopped asking, I realize that my questions were rather loaded. Are yours?

My W doesn't respond well to questions like "What do you want to do about our future?" which, read between the lines goes like this to her: "When are you going to dump Rat Meat, prove to me that you've done so, so that we can work on our M MY WAY?" There is no answer to that question. Just argument. What I'm doing now, that "Passionate Marriage" is helping me to be ABLE to do, is love her and let her feel that love for real. No strings attached. Now that I'm not expecting monumental leaps in improvement, I'm getting improvement! No major pronouncements, just incrementally improving closeness and honesty. Staying off the sensitive stuff unless she brings them up herself, and then thinking carefully about my answers before giving them. And if I "can't say nothin' nice, I don't say nothin' at all." And THAT'S working, too.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>SC:

"I've asked what she wants to do and what she needs many, many times. She's never answered. "

I did this a lot, too. She doesn't answer, either. Now that I've stopped asking, I realize that my questions were rather loaded. Are yours?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think so. I'm sure at first they were. But it's been months since we even talked about this. Rememeber, I was in no R talk for months!

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
My W doesn't respond well to questions like "What do you want to do about our future?" which, read between the lines goes like this to her: "When are you going to dump Rat Meat, prove to me that you've done so, so that we can work on our M MY WAY?" There is no answer to that question. Just argument. What I'm doing now, that "Passionate Marriage" is helping me to be ABLE to do, is love her and let her feel that love for real. No strings attached. Now that I'm not expecting monumental leaps in improvement, I'm getting improvement! No major pronouncements, just incrementally improving closeness and honesty. Staying off the sensitive stuff unless she brings them up herself, and then thinking carefully about my answers before giving them. And if I "can't say nothin' nice, I don't say nothin' at all." And THAT'S working, too.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'd love to, but at this stage I'm not sure how that's going to happen. Separated, probable Plan B...just don't know how I can do that now.