Just Learning -

Thanks for the kind words...I have never felt that I write in an eloquent manner, but I appreciate you saying so.

I admire your ability to get through these 'tomes' of mine. I never intend to type so much. I know there are so many posts to read..and so little time. I guess 'succinct' is not a word I would use when referring to me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I do hope that something good can come from the A...even if I still wish it had never happened. You are not alone in feeling that you probably would have suggested divorce before the A. Friends, family, neighbors, etc. have all suggested the same.

Yes, my kids are 10 and 15. The 15 year old can choose...and I would prefer they are not separated..and the state of Texas feels the same. They like to keep siblings together.

You are right...we have total marital role reversal here..and it is one of my areas of biggest frustration and struggle. When my H says he wants me to 'submit' now like it says in the bible..I want to gag. It's not about...um, how do I say it...it is not about a lack of willingness (although I have a very strong..and independent personality)..to me submission is a gift..and respect is earned. Maybe I'm looking at it wrong. We are at an impasse. If he wants to be a spiritual leader, then he needs to work on the actions that make him one...not just simply demand that I submit..while he continues to not take care of his family.

I hope the kids feel differently after they are grown. I pray they do...

I've tried telling him that punishing me is not the answer...I don't think he gets it...meanwhile, what little feelings I had for him are rapidly eroding. I'm at a state of almost complete indifference. It is tough to keep mustering up the desire and energy to keep working on this..and yes, to keep working on myself.

Thanks again, JL...

Regards,

YR

Pepperband,

WOW! I can't believe your H can keep his hands off you long enough for you to type anything on this board...lol

I appreciate your suggestions...they sure sound like they have great potential to fill any man's love bank <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

You are right..he doesn't have to be perfect to do this. We have gotten into a terrible cycle of blame..and retaliation. I told him that if neither of us is willing to 'give'....to stop this constant battle...if we are so determined to stand on what we feel are our 'rights'..then we will never stay married. Someone has to be willing to give up their right to be 'right. What good is being 'justified'...if the pain is still there? How does this make things better for the one who is 'justified'? I am trying to be the one who initiates stopping this cycle. He is too locked into the anger cycle over my A to be able to see anything else but that. I am not the sum of my A...there is more to me.

I will try all that you suggested. I am willing to do almost anything to make this right. To me..this is a last ditch effort..because at some point, I don't know if there will be anything left inside to care enough to make any more attempts. I'm not saying that I am right in having this attitude...I just know it is there.

I'll try a new pattern..and I will start today. I appreciate you taking time to respond.

Thanks, Pepper....I had been thinking about you..and that patient you were going to have to give the AIDS diagnosis to. I never found out what happened with that...

Regards,

YR

YRose,

I briefly read through your post and maybe a thought about letting your H do phone counseling with Steve or Jennifer might be helpful? Another thing is that those books are primarily for those who want to continue the A. The point where you are at is at the end of the book where the A has died. Different place requires different 'level of service' or treatment.

I can't treat my H with plan B if the A is dead. I can keep it in my back pocket if I don't feel safe yet (which I still do). So share this thought with your H and if he wants to mull his thoughts with some of us, let us know. There are many guy BS' out here that can help. JL is great at helping all of us (BS or Ws) have a clear head (can you tell I am a great fan of his???? LOL! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ). Anyway, give your H his options and even though there are other issues, tackle them one at a time. My H is similar to yours a talented man with emotional stability problems (in our case my H is smart but just can't seem to find his niche in the job market). He is too kind harded in a cold world - he was in sales.

I am the giver in my family and I now (due to the A and many other things) am getting to where I no longer want to be the primary giver. If I don't have appreciation and participation shown towards me in keeping this family functioning, then I want to throw in the towel and I mean really throw it in. So you see we all have our challenges. I was not like this before, I am generally a fighter but even fighters have down times. Can't keep the andrenaline running 24/7.

take care,
L.

Hi YR, and Orchid,

Guess what I am doing rather than writing a proposal that needs to be out of here on Tues? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thank you for the compliment Orchid, someday we will have to meet. I believe you and I are not far apart geographically. I think your answer and Dr. Pepper's are right on the money to YR.

Just as a matter of curiosity where in Texas do you hang out YR? Used to live there, have some family there and W is from there. One of my more favorite places really. Just to give you an idea of how odd I am, I even enjoy driving through West Texas. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I really liked Pepper's idea, and I think he needs to know the things you do admire about him and even why you are married to him.

One thing that won't work is meeting anger with anger. But, I do think you need to approach him about this role reversal issue. I get the sense from what you have said he really hates to think of himself as a house husband, and yet he is playing that role. I also KNOW from what you have said that your really don't like him in that role. You want more of a partnership with both of you doing your best.

Now here is the tricky part and the part that you need your H to really address: Is he doing his best? If he is and you don't like it, then I suspect you either have to decide to accept it, or leave. My guess is he knows he is not, but is not at all confident of what his best is? I would further guess that he has a problem with is "degree".

I have a few of them and have been fortunate enough in my life to have known what I wanted to do since I was very very young. I have in fact done that and my degrees are crucial to what I do. However, most people don't fall into that category. For example, I know many people with degrees they have never "used". I know guys who dropped out of HS who started out as plumbers, automechanics, etc, and have built business and are making far more than I do.

My point? It is time perhaps for your H to really decide what it is he wants to do. But, not let his "degree" get in the way. If he would really like to stay home and take care of the kids, although they are getting to an age where they don't need as much care, but do need access to their parents, then he should admit it and set out to do it well, and that means helping you.

Now let me ask you a hypothetical question. If he stated he really wanted to be a house husband and stay home, would you be able to grant him the autonomy to run the house and set the rules that most women expect their H's to do. I mean hand over the paycheck and stay the heck out of the way??

I ask this for a reason. Often people set up situations that guarentee the result: failure. Your lack of trust in your H's abilities would reasonablly lead one to expect that you would have a hard time letting your H sink or swim with anything you felt important. Not his jobs.

Frankly, I think it is time that you two called a truce. He needs to flat out decide if he wants to be married to you. Until he can state that, there is no need to really push much else. You need to make the same decision.

If after a few days thought, he states he does, then you need to appraise him of YOUR boundaries. You need to appraise him of what you would like the marriage to look like. You need to hear from him HIS boundaries. You need to hear from him his goals and ambitions for the marriage.

One other comment about the Bibical entreaty for a woman to submit to her H. That is only one part of the passage and the rest states what a man will do for his W. Since he likes that passage so much, and I personally think it is a very good but subtle one, then logical questions should follow.

How does he see this submittal within your marriage? How will he honor the rest of the passage for his obligations to you? You are not submit to him because you have been wrong, you are supposted to submit to him because you have been joined together as one, meaning that the both parties should be considered, counseled with on another, and treated with great respect and care.

Now my guess is that he will not sit still and let you tell him all of this. He is hurt, his defenses are up, and he knows he has been a failure as a Husband, on just about all levels. So my recommendation would be that you consider writing him. Perhaps using email so that there is sort of a dialogue, but it is filtered by the time it takes to think and respond. Perhaps you could suggest that you two won't even "talk" about it, until on paper (email) you two come to some agreement about how the marriage should go.

I guess I would reassure him again about your sense of guilt and remorse for the affair.
I would also point out to him you know you can live without him, but would prefer to live with him if the TWO of you can decide to make this a marriage. Don't use the "but" word at all.

YellowRose, you are learning alot about yourself, your children, and your H. There is a lot more to learn. Hopefully, your H will see the wisdom in working with you on this marriage. I think if he does decide that he wants to be married, then and only then can you really start to build the marriage you both want.

One last thought. You know one hears about people fighting "for" something. In the case of a marriage, one can struggle to save a marriage, but it only gets saved when each spouse decides to fight "with" their spouse to save the marriage. That is where your H is going to have to get to and you as well. You together are going to have to fight "for" your marriage. Life is a team sport.

Must actually get back to writing, but I just wanted to say Hi, drop a few thoughts on you, see how you are doing.

God Bless,

JL

Hi YR

I wanted to reply to your post, but have been away for a couple of days, so here goes. (Sorry, still don't know how to do the quote thing!)

"ok, so now you know one of my darkest secrets...I obviously wasn't a good enough mother...because no matter what anyone says...I can't easily accept the fact that they might have chosen him."

RUBBISH, BALONEY, NONSENSE!!!!! You have worked like a dog (round the clock from what I can gather) to provide financially and emotionally for your children. You say that for 5/6 years your H was not there nights or weekends because of shift work - so who was then - YOU!!!

I am sorry if I am missing something here that no-one else seems to have pointed out, but is it not rather manipulative of your H to use the children against you? My H and his XW have never ever used the girls in their battles. This to me is absolutely apalling that he can do this.

Parenting, IMHO, is not just about "doing fun things", and children eventually realise that, they want stability and security. When my two S-Ds came into my life, I consciously decided that I would not "buy" their affections. I was always strict, but fair with them and they respect me. If I bought them gifts or gave them money (even still to this day), they really appreciate it, because they know I have not done this lightly. My H and I are always seen as much tougher than their Mum, but they often spend time with us, respect and love us. I know this is in reverse, but I am positive your children would not choose your H over you if (big IF) it ever came to it. At times, the girls come to me first (particularly the eldest) to talk about issues she doesn't always want to address with her mum first. Kids are fickle too, but when push comes to shove, most kids want their mum first.

Also, I would like to find a large number of people on this site who had happy childhoods/lives. My childhood was not unhappy, but my parents divorced when we were very young, my mum struggled, I was often racially abused at school etc. etc. This does not excuse your own behaviour. None of us are a blank page, we all bring our past to our futures. Even if you had the happiest childhood ever, other things happen. My friend's partner of 10 years died in her arms of a heart attack - traumatic, influences the way she is - you bet!!!!! But we all have to learn to deal with our past. We can't change who we are, and let's face it, often it's our past that makes us better people too. We can learn from our experiences, incorporate them and move forward.

I am sorry things are so tough for you. You sound like you are doing everything in your power to work at your M. However, manipulative, abusive behaviour has to stop if your M is to recover. This response may seem rather harsh on your H, and I do not mean for it to be taken in this way. There are other people on this site who are better placed to give you support and advice on how to work on your marriage. But if you are only in your M for fear (and I repeat FEAR) of losing your children, home and finances, I'm personally not sure if those reasons will be able to support your recovery. Are you frightened of that, together with being frightened of being abused constantly? Is this a good way to be?

Anyway, YR, what do I know?!?! I'm thinking of you and sending you support from across the Ocean.

Lisa

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by YellowRose:
<strong>I am trying to Plan A..and I think I'm not doing it right. I went back and reread SAA..and am still a lil unclear on this. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Any thoughts/advise on this...would be greatly appreciated!!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">yellow rose...

hello... i’ve been following your threads since you came to the board... i’ve read them all... i’m hoping to learn with you... i tend to follow a lot of fww stories... let me just say that the following is just my opinion... it is given free so take it for what it is worth...

it is not that you are not doing a good “plan a”... it is that “plan a” does not necessarily work well for a fww... i say this especially if the bh is: extremely angry, does not recognize that he had a part in setting up the atmosphere in the marriage, or is not forth coming with his feelings... therefore i think we need another plan or we need the “fww version of plan a”...

to me a fww is a woman who has messed up and taken responsibility for it... she is not blame shifting... she is remorseful and she wants to repair... she is looking for advice and support in the recovery process... she is struggling to do the right thing... i am a fww i consider you one also...

as a fww we have different issues to deal with... we’ve stumbled into the affair because we were trying to get our emotional needs met (better know as selfish)... reality steps into view (better know as the fog lifts)... no contact is established... we’ve now lost our emotional support (better know as going through withdrawal)... some of us are living with an angry, bitter, not willing to communicate spouses... needless to say said spouses are not interested in meeting our emotional needs... we are trying to deal with the guilt and shame of it all...

we need a plan that address all of these issues... this is where i wish i say follow mb’s “fww plan a” or say jump over to www.mb-from-the-prespective-of-the-former-wayward-one.com... i’ve been searching the internet trying to find another site with the same philosophy as mb but from the view point of fws... to date i’ve been unsuccessful...

i mount my search not because i don’t find the value here at mb... i’ve learned a lot here... jr, spacecase and 2long have given me insight into the thoughts/feelings of the bh... i have read every thread the three of them have started... clouds, just learning and twyla have consistently been there for me...

why don’t i just stay here and do the work... i feel the need for a forum where my voice is the dominant voice... a site where the plans, strategies and support is set up from my perspective as outlined above... a home of my own... a place where i can speak my mind without fear of getting “flamed”... i want to repair... i need help crossing the mind field... it’s hard...

thank you yellow rose... i’ve been trying to find a way to say this for a long time... if anyone knows of such of site, i would be ever so grateful if they would point me in that direction... post a reply here or mail me at todjugo@yahoo.com... until then, i'll continue to read and learn here...

i'll keep following your journey...

oaktown...

<small>[ September 02, 2002, 11:05 PM: Message edited by: oaktown ]</small>

Orchid -

I had thought about having H do phone counseling with one of the Harley's...biggest prob right now is complete lack of funds.

My air conditioner stopped working yesterday..which is why I have taken so long to reply...in Texas, you gotta have working A/C!!! It was sooooo hot in my house!! Add that unexpected expense to the expense of my brakes going out on my mom-mobile (mini-van)...and I am trying to figure out a way to pay for everything. We are paycheck to paycheck as it is. I already borrowed a couple of weeks ago from my parents in order to be able to pay some bills on time (and yes, I already paid them back...).

I pray that in October we don't have additional 'surprise' expenses..maybe I could set aside some then. I actually thought about trying to find a temp job for a weekend...so that I could set some aside for an appt. with the Harley's.

H knows about this site..and I encouraged him to come here for support...I have even read him some of the other threads (he asked what I was doing)...and then he told me it just depressed him even more..and that he had a problem with how much time I spend on here. I am not on here that much at all. H won't come here, in my opinion. Just like when I used to ask him to go to counseling..before any A...he said "I don't want to go just so someone can tell me that you are right in what you are saying/wanting/etc..." He knows that folks on here don't condone A's...IMHO, he just doesn't want to hear that he has any part in the downfall of our marriage (before A)..or any true responsibility now to make things better. For the first time in our M, I have given him the 'perfect weapon'...the 'A'..
anytime we argue and I say anything about something he is doing that is causing me problems...I get the infamous "well, but I'm not the one who cheated...you did"..

hehe..I can tell you are a big fan of JL's...same here! I still think he is an undercover Harley <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Yes, I am the giver also..and am ready to throw in the proverbial towel. How are you handling this issue with your H, Orchid? Does he know this is a problem? I can't seem to get through to my H at all right now..and doubt I will be able to for a very long time...hopefully, it is easier in your situation..but maybe not??

Well, I just spilled coffee everywhere...sigh...be back in a bit...

Regards,

YR

JL – Sorry it has taken me so long to reply. My A/C decided to stop working yesterday so things were a little hectic around here.

Quote:
Guess what I am doing rather than writing a proposal that needs to be out of here on Tues?

Ummm…on the board…replying to us fine folks? LOL…..

I have enjoyed reading what everyone has had to say…much ‘food for thought’ here…I live in Fort Worth and work in Dallas….just love that commute! (NOT!)
You enjoy driving through West Texas? Wow…you don’t have any high ‘scenic’ expectations, do you? Hehe…there is almost NOTHING to look at!! Brown fields, green fields…cows….dirt….more cows…more dirt….weeds….more dirt….lol…
Guess there is nothing wrong with a man who is easily satisified!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Quote:
I really liked Pepper's idea, and I think he needs to know the things you do admire about him and even why you are married to him.

I agree…and I know this is going to sound so very awful…but I am having a difficult time thinking of how to phrase to him why I am married to him! I can come up with things I admire…in fact, I have often listed these to him in conversations…but perhaps at the wrong time, etc. Maybe I should type some thoughts out on things I could say to him and post them here. Hopefully I can get some feedback on how they sound…something that may sound like a compliment to me..may not sound that way to him? Does that make sense?

Quote: One thing that won't work is meeting anger with anger. But, I do think you need to approach him about this role reversal issue. I get the sense from what you have said he really hates to think of himself as a house husband, and yet he is playing that role. I also KNOW from what you have said that your really don't like him in that role. You want more of a partnership with both of you doing your best.

Yes, he hates to think of himself as a house husband…and he especially despises the thought of himself making ‘less money’ than me…but he has made choices to keep perpetuating the situation..and to stay in the situation. I make a great deal of money although our debt situation is so ridiculously high that we live paycheck to paycheck. Honestly, he will probably never be able to make as much money as I currently do. I am not saying this arrogantly…or trying to cast aspersions or doubts on his ability to have at one time made this amount of money. His resume reflects his life choices…and at 41 (don’t know why I said he was 42 in prior posts), not many employers are willing to pay him even $25K per year. To get locked into the “I won’t be happy or feel ok until I make more than my W” is a bad idea. He doesn’t need to make as much as me…I have told him this. It is not a contest. I have been blessed with my career situation after many years of horrific jobs that I wouldn’t want my worst enemy to work at. My family is welcome to enjoy the fruits of my labor and this includes him. I asked him the other day what he wanted to ‘do’…because he always says how he can never have the job he wants…because of the pressure from his Dad..and from me. His reply was “I don’t know”…I asked him if he wanted to go and get his Master’s degree…or what..and he said “it’s too late..you wouldn’t let me do this before when it would have helped…that is not an option”. I told him it is never too late..and he kept saying it was. I asked him again what he would like..and he kept saying he didn’t know..so I gave up that conversation. You were ‘on the money’ about him not knowing what he wants…or what he wants to do.

You are right, I don’t like him in the role he is in..but I am willing to learn to live with it better..but he needs to decide what he wants! Is he doing his best? No, in my opinion, he is not. He started getting angry because he hasn’t had any replies to the jobs he has applied for. He has been ‘looking’ for 3 months now. I asked him yesterday how many jobs he applied for..and he told me “4”…now, to me, that is not enough! I bit my tongue…but applying for almost one job per month will probably not get him a job (not with his work history).

Quote: Now let me ask you a hypothetical question. If he stated he really wanted to be a house husband and stay home, would you be able to grant him the autonomy to run the house and set the rules that most women expect their H's to do. I mean hand over the paycheck and stay the heck out of the way??

Honestly, I’m not sure…..

Regarding your suggestions on boundaries, submission, etc. – you are correct when you suggest email as a tool to communicate. We both do much better when we email instead of speaking. Yes, his defenses are up….but to tell you the truth, the way he is acting now…he has acted almost our entire marriage before the A. He has said in front of our pastor many times that he wants to ‘try’ to save our M. However, his actions are telling me something else. I will ask him again (via email). Maybe he was only telling our pastor what he felt he should say.

I appreciate your thoughts, JL. I would have responded yesterday but ended up fighting with H for most of the day. He brought up something related to the A in front of my kids and I felt so much shame I was almost incapable of communicating the rest of the day. It was not retaliation…I just felt…like the part of me that animates this body had left. I felt so sick that I ended up sleeping for hours…and am still feeling sick today..although I am at work. H did try to apologize yesterday, but this happens often. I can forgive, but I am not ready to do this right now. I will treat H well…because it is the right thing to do, but the part of me that truly cared for him is going away. I have called Dr. to try and renew my anti-depressant medicine. I am not sure if I care anymore whether we save our M or not….to tell you the truth. That is how I feel. I guess it would be kind of the same way for a BS that has a WS that continues over and over and over to commit adultery. At some point..when do you give up?

Well, sorry for the maudlin tone, I had originally started this reply to you yesterday and was not so conflicted…hence some of the differences you may see from the start of the post through the end of the post…

Best Regards,

YR

Lisa In London –

I was glad to hear from you but sad to see what you posted on your thread L
I will be responding on your thread later today.

I appreciate your defense of me on the child custody situation. Yes, it is very manipulative of my H and my in-laws to use the kids against me. It is one of the things that is a huge roadblock to our recovery. I consider it to be ‘fighting dirty’…but I’m sure my H would say the same of my A….When my H continued to go through job after job, I tried to protect our kid’s image of him. Also, I don’t think we need to tell our kids everything….let kids be kids. They don’t need to know every adult area of concern.

Sounds like you have done an excellent job with your S-D’s! I think kids do better with rules, boundaries, and yes, an element of ‘strictness’ when needed. I sure hope they wouldn’t choose him over me…honestly, if I thought he could parent them better…it might not hurt so much…but his consistent track record indicates otherwise. This does not mean he does not truly love them. Also, I was even willing to have true split custody.

Sounds like you had some tough things to overcome growing up L I agree with you that many folks did not have the ‘ideal’ childhood….I would like to find one person who truly did. I agree that this does not excuse your own behavior. At some point you have to rise above your background…or your background will be all that ever defines you….your past will become your future…ugh, I sure don’t want that!

I hope I am doing everything in my power to work on the M…I’m at a place where things are pointing towards the fact this may not work out…I need to know I did everything I could regardless of how H is acting…this is so hard!

I concur that the reasons I gave may not be enough to support my/our recovery…I feel like there would have been additional…stronger reasons by now if H had handled his end differently…maybe I’m wrong. No, being frightened is not a good way to be…

Aww, Lisa…you know plenty! I love hearing from you..and your support means more to me than I can express in words….hugs to you from ‘this side of the ocean’.

Hugs and Love,

YR (Karen)

YR,

You said: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I have enjoyed reading what everyone has had to say…much 'food for thought' here…I live in Fort Worth and work in Dallas….just love that commute! (NOT!)
You enjoy driving through West Texas? Wow…you don't have any high 'scenic' expectations, do you? Hehe…there is almost NOTHING to look at!! Brown fields, green fields…cows….dirt….more cows…more dirt….weeds….more dirt….lol…
Guess there is nothing wrong with a man who is easily satisified!!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And the scenery around DFW is??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Actually, there is lots to see if you drive across TX on 10. You get to see really neat geological changes, from the Mountains, near El Paso, into the high plateau country with the Davis Mts on your right, then Permian basin, moving in area of flat plains, then back into parts of the Hill country before you get to SA. You get to see large wineries out there, pump jacks making someone a lot of money, and if you stop in those little towns you get to meet some really fine people. What's not to like about a drive like that??? Oh, and if you pick the right spot, the food is pretty good too.

If you come across from say NM out thru Muleshoe and into Lubbock you get to see the high plateaus with the cotton growing, and then the sharp transistion down off of the high plateau region and into oil country, and then the vegatation starts to change and you start to see trees or more precisely trees that don't grow leaning east because of the prevailing winds.

Girl, you live in a beautiful part of the world, you just got to get out and really see it.
But, you are right. I am easily satisfied. And it is getting easier as I get older. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

YR, you know there is something so simple and elemental about all of this. A marriage won't work if BOTH people won't work on making the other person the primary person in their life. It may be time to simply ask you H some simple questions:

1. Do you want to be married?
2. Do you ever intend to make me the primary person in your life?
3. Are you willing to make this marriage better than it is?
4. How are you going to do this if the answer to 1,2, and 3 is yes?

It seems to me the time for procrastination is over. He needs to do it or get off the pot. Of course you also need to be willing to answer those same questions.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">H did try to apologize yesterday, but this happens often. I can forgive, but I am not ready to do this right now. I will treat H well…because it is the right thing to do, but the part of me that truly cared for him is going away. I have called Dr. to try and renew my anti-depressant medicine. I am not sure if I care anymore whether we save our M or not….to tell you the truth. That is how I feel. I guess it would be kind of the same way for a BS that has a WS that continues over and over and over to commit adultery. At some point when do you give up?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You give up when you have exhausted all of you avenues for trying and the other person has made it clear that they will NOT change. But, mostly you give up just as anyone does, BS or WS, when you lose hope. It is a very sad thing YR, and I pray that you haven't given up hope, but you will know. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Have you talked with your minister about all of this? Perhaps he/she could offer some guidance for you and for him. It seems to me from what you say is that more than anything your H needs to come up with a plan and stick to it. You are right about the job applications, his rate of applying won't get him a job in a good job market and with a good work record.

This is hard stuff YR, and it takes a lot of work. I hope you are seeing that you are in the same boat as any BS here (are you listening Oaktown???). When it comes to rebuilding the marriage, it is tough work and the issues are the same when all is said and done, no matter how one comes at the issue. Trust, willingness to forgive, willingness to make changes, but most of all willingness to change perspectives. It is Perspectives more than anything that must change, the core person will never change in my opinion. They may grow up, mature, ect. But the big change is in perspective.

Must go, hang in there YR.

God Bless,

JL

oaktown -

Thanks for taking the time to post on my thread. Wow, you’ve read them all? You are to be commended!! LOL….I think most folks click on it..and when they see how much stuff they would have to wade through…they click right back off <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I tend to have a problem with typing in ‘just a little bit’ of stuff.

Quote: “it is not that you are not doing a good “plan a”... it is that “plan a” does not necessarily work well for a fww... i say this especially if the bh is: extremely angry, does not recognize that he had a part in setting up the atmosphere in the marriage, or is not forth coming with his feelings... therefore i think we need another plan or we need the “fww version of plan a”...”

Regarding the Plan A….that was recommended by a number of folks..although it is usually the BS that Plan A’s the WS…you are right in saying it doesn’t necessarily work as well under those circumstances you listed in the quote above. It would be great if we could get one of the Harley’s…or some of the experienced folks on here (BS or WS) to detail some info and plans particularly for the WS who was working with a reluctant or hostile BS.

Quote: “to me a fww is a woman who has messed up and taken responsibility for it... she is not blame shifting... she is remorseful and she wants to repair... she is looking for advice and support in the recovery process... she is struggling to do the right thing... i am a fww i consider you one also...”

Thank you for saying that…sometimes I feel like I’m still stuck in the muck…

Quote: “ as a fww we have different issues to deal with... we’ve stumbled into the affair because we were trying to get our emotional needs met (better know as selfish)... reality steps into view (better know as the fog lifts)... no contact is established... we’ve now lost our emotional support (better know as going through withdrawal)... some of us are living with an angry, bitter, not willing to communicate spouses... needless to say said spouses are not interested in meeting our emotional needs... we are trying to deal with the guilt and shame of it all...

we need a plan that address all of these issues... this is where i wish i say follow mb’s “fww plan a” or say jump over to www.mb-from-the-prespective-of-the-former-wayward-one.com... i’ve been searching the internet trying to find another site with the same philosophy as mb but from the view point of fws... to date i’ve been unsuccessful...”

I agree..and have often wished for the same thing. I wish they had a ‘forum’..or whatever it is called..specifically targeted for WS’s…not that WS’s should not post and/or reply on the other forums…because there is so much to be learned from each other..but I think that WS’s have additional issues to deal with that would be nice to have exclusively (or almost exclusively) addressed.

Yeah, I follow spacecase, 2long, going_crazy and a few other folk’s threads…I have learned quite a bit from them all…and from many of the other great folks (JL, Topie, Lisa In London, laylie, Pepperband, Orchid, Hope4Future, Melody Lane and Bramblerose, etc.). Sure hope I didn’t leave anyone out!!

Quote: “why don’t i just stay here and do the work... i feel the need for a forum where my voice is the dominant voice... a site where the plans, strategies and support is set up from my perspective as outlined above... a home of my own... a place where i can speak my mind without fear of getting “flamed”... i want to repair... i need help crossing the mind field... it’s hard...”

Have you ever thought about emailing the Harley’s admin office and asking about their plans for additional resources (i.e. books, plans/questionnaires, forums, conferences, etc.) specifically targeted to WS’s? I think their book would sell very well! Heck, probably many BS’s would buy it. I think Harley touched the tip of an iceberg in SAA…I would like him to explore WS’s and their issues more in depth. I would also like him to cover online infidelity issues..the online initiated A is rearing its head more and more often with the times we live in. I think this will soon outpace workplace infidelity if it hasn’t already.

I have also been looking for sites for WS’s…but have only found sites for people still wanting to practice/continue their A’s….definitely not what I’m looking for. I sometimes live in fear of being flamed…but honestly…98% of the folks here have been so very kind to me. Also, having a site or forum dedicated more towards our special issues/ needs..is no guarantee of not getting flamed…shoot, it may be the opposite..LOL… I still agree with your wanting/needing to have more WS related issues explored…and tips/suggestions/plans…maybe if many of the WS’s here emailed the Harleys…we could get them interested in exploring the concept at least…

Let me know how your are doing, ok? I was a little concerned at some of the sad sounding tones in your posts a few days ago on your thread.

Hugs,

YR

JL -

Quote: “And the scenery around DFW is???”

Um…freeways…cars…more freeways…more cars…lil bit of dirt…couple of cows in someone’s backyard…lil bit more dirt…hey, what are you trying to say here? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I was referring to the drive between the DFW and Amarillo..and from Amarillo to the New Mexico border…BORING...but maybe that is because I've driven it so many times with fussy kids in the back seat..I just wanna get to Colorado!! I’ve heard that the drive out near the Davis Mountain area is nice…that is where the observatory is, right? I wouldn’t have any problem with a drive like that…hey, this is a BIG state..be specific when you say driving in West Texas…which West Texas? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Quote: “Girl, you live in a beautiful part of the world, you just got to get out and really see it.”

Sigh..sorry..I was spoiled..I lived in Alaska for 6 years as a child..and fell totally in love with it…I was so depressed when my Dad retired to Texas…and I found out that I wasn’t going to get to ride a horse to school every day (I had told all my classmates in North Dakota that I was going to be doing this)…I never fully recovered from the horse disappointment <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Now all my family lives in this area..and so…I am still here. Honestly, I enjoy many things about Texas. My fave area so far is East Texas…love those pine trees

Quote: “It may be time to simply ask you H some simple questions:
1. Do you want to be married?
2. Do you ever intend to make me the primary person in your life?
3. Are you willing to make this marriage better than it is?
4. How are you going to do this if the answer to 1,2, and 3 is yes?”

Yes, I want to ask my H all those questions. I guess I was waiting for a day/time without major trauma/love busting going on…so we could talk about things in a civil manner. I am beginning to see that may not be possible..so I may have to just leap in there. I would be willing to answer the same questions. No problem there.

I have talked to our minister about this. H and I have both met with him. H was supposed to schedule additional meetings with him for us both about 6 weeks ago. This has not been done yet.

Yes, I was beginning to recently see many similarities in my feelings and the feelings of many of the BS’s on here. I understand what oaktown is saying also…but many of my situations/feelings/dilemmas do parallel what the BS’s are going through.

JL, as always, it is a pleasure exchanging posts/information with you. I hope your day has gone well. I must pack up ‘ye old laptop’ and hit the highway (yep..the good ‘ol DFW drive)….

Best Regards,

YR

YR,

Ah! Alaska. Lived there as a kid (before it was a state), and been back there several times with my sons backpacking and kayaking with the Boy Scouts. Now, THAT is one beautiful state.

Did you know if you live in Texarkana, that you are closer to Chicago than you are to El Paso??

It is true.

I have lived pretty much all over the country, and driven through all but Maine. Lots of cool people and neat places.

I see your problem you were anxious to get to the mountains, huh?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

As for those questions, you could write them down and give them to your H to answer if you think face to face is too explosive, but I think you will find there are not good times to discuss this. If there were you wouldn't be in the situation you find yourself in. Weird Huh? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Must go, hope you have a good evening.

God Bless,

JL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Just Learning:
<strong>(are you listening Oaktown???)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">wow!!! just learning, you shocked me... yes, i'm listening...

oaktown...

<small>[ September 04, 2002, 05:48 PM: Message edited by: oaktown ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by YellowRose:
<strong>Thanks for taking the time to post on my thread. Wow, you’ve read them all? You are to be commended!!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">yellow rose...

it's true... i've read them all... actually, i like the long threads better than the short ones... i'm always really impressed with folks that can actually write... for me it's such a struggle...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Regarding the Plan A….that was recommended by a number of folks..</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i understand... you are getting advice from some of the best... just learning, topie25, pepperband, (let me stop with the roll call now... i alway leave someone out and end up feeling soooo bad)...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Have you ever thought about emailing the Harley’s admin office and asking about their plans for additional resources (i.e. books, plans/questionnaires, forums, conferences, etc.) specifically targeted to WS’s?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i've considered doing this... to date i've not summoned the courage to do so... sounds like a lot of work to give someone...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I have also been looking for sites for WS’s…but have only found sites for people still wanting to practice/continue their A’s….definitely not what I’m looking for. I sometimes live in fear of being flamed…but honestly…98% of the folks here have been so very kind to me.

I still agree with your wanting/needing to have more WS related issues explored…and tips/suggestions/plans…maybe if many of the WS’s here emailed the Harleys…we could get them interested in exploring the concept at least… </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">yeah... i know what you mean... plenty of stuff out there if you're loooking for a way to stay in the affair... to date my experiences here have been positive also... although i've seen some stuff that's made my toes curl... i find that when a ws says something a little controversial it's the initial response that sets the tone... but, all in all i know that i'm reluctant to mention some things here... i don't think i would have that problem on a forum for ws...

i'll have to light a fire under myself and see what i can do... maybe the harleys have seen the need already and just need encouragement...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Let me know how your are doing, ok? I was a little concerned at some of the sad sounding tones in your posts a few days ago on your thread.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">your concern is appreciated, yellow rose... i'm always stunned when others show care for me... i think i project my feeling for myself onto other too much... honestly, i'm sure the root of the majority of my problems is how i feel about myself... i'm surviving...

see you around the board... for what it's worth, i think you're doing a good job...

oaktown...

<small>[ September 04, 2002, 06:19 PM: Message edited by: oaktown ]</small>

Just Learning -

Hope things are going well for you. I never got a chance to respond to your last post so I thought I would do so now...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Ah! Alaska. Lived there as a kid (before it was a state), and been back there several times with my sons backpacking and kayaking with the Boy Scouts. Now, THAT is one beautiful state.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, it is very beautiful! Back before it was a state? So, prior to 1959, right? I would love to go back for a visit some day...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As for those questions, you could write them down and give them to your H to answer if you think face to face is too explosive, but I think you will find there are not good times to discuss this. If there were you wouldn't be in the situation you find yourself in. Weird Huh? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes...weird...but pretty much just like the rest of my life <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Things have been ok for the past week. We had a huge blow up the weekend before last over him being mad at me being on this board. He thought I was corresponding with another 'male' and 'chatting. I tried to explain to him the difference and offered to let him read my posts although I have a HUGE issue with privacy...he ranted and raved in front of our kids about how I was talking with 'other men'...I was so furious. It was completely unfair to suggest in front of our kids that I was having an inappropriate relationship with no evidence of said relationship. He sat there fuming and read my posts, made me click back and forth so he could see everything...right in front of the kids...I felt ashamed...and like I was being treated like a little child. I realize I caused the lack of trust issue...but I would appreciate some tact and some kindness especially in front of the kids.

I did not go near my H for over a week..and went back to sleeping on the couch. I was devastated that it seems I will never be free from the issues of the A....I have to fight myself off from thinking of the past 16 years of betrayals that I feel I have suffered at his hands. An A is NOT the only way in which someone can betray another. Honestly, I would have preferred that he had an affair...as opposed to the total abandonment I felt like I had suffered through our entire marriage.

On the upside, H did seem to be remorseful after that episode but I was in shock for several days...I am getting worse at being able to 'rebound' from some of the abuse, accusations and harassment. He has read further in HNHN - so far he hasn't come up with anything new to accuse me of after reading although I still live with great anxiety over this.

Well, am going to go post on a few threads...let me know how you are doing, I haven't seen you around in a few days.

Regards,

YR

Hi YR,

Sorry to hear you sounding so down. I don't know if there is anything worse than an A, but there are many ways to mess up a marriage and what your H did in front of the children is surely one of them. That is why Harley talks about the rule of Protection, honesty, time, etc.

That protection one is a huge one and can be violated so many ways.

I find it interesting that he read your posts. What was his response? I would suspect some of yours posts hit pretty close to home for him. Did he have an comments about those?

You know YR, I wonder if he really gets it or if his family was so messed up that he'll never get it.
I hope that as you recover from the affair that he will begin to see things differently and ultimately he will not only recover from the affair but from his other issues as well.

I have been busy and will get busier these next few weeks lots of travel. So I don't know how much I will be around. Let me know if there is something I can help with.

God Bless,

JL

PS: Think EARLY 50's <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />