Here is one way I think about this (may not be right, but)-

A teacher gives two students an assignment to fulfill. One student tries very hard to understand the assignment, puts time into it and asks questions, although the questions are never clearly answered (from the student's perspective). The other student is not too interested in this assignment because they are very pre-occupied with other things in their life. They also don't take the assignment too seriously because they figure they are already doing pretty well in the class.

The first student turns in their assignment and it turns out not to be what the teacher wanted at all. The second student doesn't turn in an assignment. Both students get an "F". The teacher tells them, "Apparently, you do not care about my class, you don't care about doing well, you don't take what I tell you seriously. You don't try. I give up."

So in the end, both students failed. But should they be put in the same category? And how much responsibility does the teacher have, if any? Could they have been a little clearer, more understanding, more helpful?

<small>[ August 31, 2002, 02:45 PM: Message edited by: Libbie6 ]</small>

zorweb--
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She told me that it is not that I am attracted to them. It’s that they pick me out because I did not have appropriate boundaries.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Whoa- that is creepy... Sounds like I still need some work on this. This sounds like what any other kind of social "predator" does btw... ick.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I’ve come a long way since then. I’m horrified when I look back at what I allowed him to do to me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Me too, everytime I look back at my abusive R, I think back to myself wondering if I was too "sensitive," or taking things too "personally," or that I LIKED being treated like that. No Denial like This Denial at the time... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I’ve gotten to the point where I run almost everything I do through my MB filter. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for reminding me, MB is incredible/amazing when put into use.

I can't believe that your plans all involve Honesty!! For some reason this seems to be the most important thing for intimacy, in my experience. But never had anybody say so. Well, it leads to Trust....

His ex needs to take a chill, big time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I’d answer her questions about the kids. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good for YOU!! Yay!

Your plan sounds an awful lot like my Radical Honesty plan. However, yours is in working order!!! I am so radically honest with H, I want him to be the same. He's a conflict avoider sometimes, and sometimes I haven't exactly made it painless for him to be honest...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We have weathered the storm and learned that we can handle anything if we do it together with love and honesty. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Amen, I believe you. What sound/great/wonderful advice your post was, but I hope that you finally got some sleep/reprieve from thoughts of the day!!! BTW, Who wants to have a marriage that is cold or ho hum, or even fun with no understanding or trust? I'll take trust, problems and all with deep love / understaning over an Entertainment R anyday.
-bbs

Blueberryskies,

I have learned that honesty is my first EN. Nothing else matters without it.

We have also found out that it’s the corner stone of a healthy family as long as it’s coupled with buck loads of love.

I’ve seen my marriage and our children blossom with it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Libbie6:
<strong>So in the end, both students failed. But should they be put in the same category?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Clearly not.

Same goes for BSs and WSs.

When I say this every few months or so on this forum, somebody usually blasts me for being "judgemental", but I'll say it again:

I am a better person than my XW (WS). I am a better person than OM. I find much comfort in believing this.

All things considered, BSs are better people than WSs in the act of being a WS.

Period.

Rare exceptions exist, perhaps, in truly abusive marriages. But absent real abuse, it takes extreme selfishness to be a WS to the point of neglecting everything and everyone else around you.

Well, I agree that there are differences between WS, too- , like one WS truly regretting what they did and committing to working on the marriage and regaining trust of the BS, versus a WS that lives in the fog and never truly regrets anything. It's one thing to say they're sorry, and another to truly mean it.

All I meant to convey when I started this thread (rant- <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) was that a WS should take into account that a BS may have been consciously trying to meet their needs, and either misunderstood what they wanted, thought they wanted something when their spouse really didn't, or were never clearly told what they wanted. A BS who is concsiously working on meeting their spouse's needs is doing so because they LOVE their spouse and want them to be happy. Maybe they missed the mark, but did not do so intentionally or maliciously! They are trying to do the right thing. This is a much different scenario than a BS who has been told clearly what they can do to meet the WS needs (pre-affair), and disregards the plea because they don't care, are too "busy" too listen or do anything about it, etc. To me, this is neglect/withdrawal from the marriage, and the first scenario clearly is not. I just wish more WS would take that into account, because I do NOT believe that every BS is the latter. I think many BS are deeply in love with their WS and are actively working on the marriage when the WS cheats, and that makes the pain SO great and hard to deal with.

IMO,

There are some BSs that cannot meet the ENs of their WSs because the needs are unrealistic. While we would like to think that we can meet all their needs, some needs are just plain selfish and ludicrous. My first husband was an only child and came late in life to his parents. He was clearly the center of the universe but that changed when we married. It was no longer all about him.

I guess I am trying to simply point out that it is not always about not meeting the ENs. It is about what needs are realistic and what needs are impossible to meet. I really feel that some ENs are not legitimate ones. Just because those needs are not being met by the BS does not mean that the BS is at fault. The BS is the only person that can determine what needs fit into what category.

As Always, JMHO.

<small>[ September 02, 2002, 03:36 PM: Message edited by: committedandlovingit ]</small>