Lisa, tell your H about me and my situation. I had no idea that I could benefit from Anti-Ds. In fact, I had gone to the Dr just to get something to eat and sleep. She suggested that I go on a mild Anti-D. I couldn't believe it! I was not depressed!! I was somewhat insulted and felt condesended to. You know what? The Anti-Ds were the *BEST* thing I could have done. They have allowed me to take a step back from the situation and see it for what it is. I *GUARANTEE* that your H would benefit from them and so would you. If you want, you can have your H contact me for more personal information regarding my use of them. I am in very much the same situation as he is, except my WW is not quite as far along as you in recovery.

ST

Hello from London

Well, it's hard to know where to start tonight, as I haven't been around much to be able to post.

I think in reverse order:

NSST - I cannot even talk with H at the moment, let alone try and get him to go to the Dr's. He is also currently not registered with anyone since coming home, and in the UK, it would be unlikely he could just walk into a surgery and ask for them. I also know that he does not think he is depressed and therefore he won't every consider the idea. He wouldn't communicate with you either as a "stranger", it is not him. I am struggling enough to get him to contact some of his old friends who has lost touch with.

As for me, I guess I am stronger, although every day is a struggle. Working out of my home office the last couple of days has really helped as I have to focus on what I am doing. I think I was definitely depressed, but have moved on somewhat now. I don't lie in bed and cry all day, so I've come a long way.

YR - as ever so much good sense from you - spooky really, like you're my pshycic counsellor across the ocean!!! D-Day was 5th July, so just over two months.

I have not articulated the question about "What do I need to do", but I know H wants me to put him above everyone and everything else (not unreasonable for a marriage). I think he would like me to stop cycling for the time being, and I know there are the two friends of mine he is angry with - I think he would rather I was not in contact with them. All of these things are hard for me to do.

I struggle with wondering if I am in the right place now, and the ambivalence I feel. I honestly don't know what I want, who I am, or what I'm doing. I find it hard to even talk to H because I worry that I might inadvertendly say something that upsets him.....

I also worry that I am not being honest with myself - do I REALLY want to do this? To answer the question above,I do not know if I can or want to put my H above everybody and everything. I hope this does not sound too harsh or unreasonable, but I think this is part of the me that felt single and able to do what I wanted when I wanted to. I still want to do that - play tennis, cycle, go out with my friends. I have not had any nights out with friends since H came home (sorry one,my friend's 40th). I miss seeing people and doing those things. Equally, I know that I don't want to throw away 12 years of marriage/partnership without trying. But I don't feel enough of anything either way.

Quote: "Dont let it grind you down too much. Look at it as a painful yet necessary vent of bad emotions, which HAVE to come out somehow. of course it hurts, of course it would be best just to forget the lot & move on, but this is how the healing process works. The next outpour will be less intense, less frequent etc etc until you both are 'back to normal'."

Nick, I know I have to be patient etc. but my patience is wearing out - HOW LONG?!?!?!?!?!

Last night H was just generally cross with me, and this morning he apologised. He said he wanted to say nice things to me, but couldn't do it. I don't think I can take many more angry outbursts, upsets etc. I had another stress headache this morning.... I think he is also not really thinking that MB can help, so that seems to have gone by the way too.

He is still talking about separating after ES-D's party, but not going for another job abroard, which is good anyway.

OK, brutally honest now, I don't know if I want to try or do it. I don't know what I'm doing now or why. Am I mis-leading H? Probably, because I really don't know. Perhaps it is more honest to let him go. If I loose him and realise I didn't want to, then maybe that is what I have to live with.

Thank you again everyone.

Lisa

Hey, Lisa...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NSST - I cannot even talk with H at the moment, let alone try and get him to go to the Dr's. He is also currently not registered with anyone since coming home, and in the UK, it would be unlikely he could just walk into a surgery and ask for them.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow... such a difference in medical care delivery. I understand you don't have to 'pay' when you go, but I sure would not want to 'register' at any doctor's! I can just go up to the quack shack, (little minor emergency clinic a block away) pay cash, and get what I need. Anonymously if I want. I could put it on our insurance if I want to as well. I do have a regular Dr. that our medical insurance pays for, less a $15 co-pay per visit. She is the one who got me on the Anti-Ds in the first place.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I also know that he does not think he is depressed and therefore he won't every consider the idea.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I had no idea that I was depressed. I had only heard horror stories about Anti-Ds, and was *very* reluctant to take them. The good Dr. talked me into trying the Celexa, and I cannot tell you what a positive change they have made in my outlook. I guarantee you I would be heading for divorce right now if I had not gotten on them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He wouldn't communicate with you either as a "stranger", it is not him.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, I understand. If he would, have him check out my story. I have had trouble getting my WW to check out MB. She doesn't care about what others are going through, she thinks her situation is unique.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am struggling enough to get him to contact some of his old friends who has lost touch with. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you know that you cannot 'make' someone do anything. I have tried to get my WW on Anti-Ds, and she will not consider it. Your H may not realize how lucky he is to have his WW doing all the heavy lifting right now. You are very strong. My WW would have left me by now if I continued to act the way I did at the beginning.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As for me, I guess I am stronger, although every day is a struggle. Working out of my home office the last couple of days has really helped as I have to focus on what I am doing. I think I was definitely depressed, but have moved on somewhat now. I don't lie in bed and cry all day, so I've come a long way.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, if you were laying around in bed and crying all day, you were depressed! Work can help change your focus. Me, I could not work at all when this started. Good thing I got laid off! (Doh) Doing what it takes to save our marriage has been my primary focus for 5 months now. It is only now starting to pay off. I feel that the chances of recovery for us have never been better. There was a point when I felt that it was better than 90% chance of divorce. I think that is down to 10% now. I wish I could tell you how to act or what to do, but I am more of an expert on what I, the BS should be doing. I don't know much about a 'reverse' Plan A, which is what it seems you are doing. You H is probably sensing your lack of absolute commitment, and fears the worst. You do need to decide what to do, and if it is to stay in your marriage, your H *must* step up to the plate and do his part in working things out.

Ramble on!!!

NSST

NSST

Quote:"Oh, I understand. If he would, have him check out my story. I have had trouble getting my WW to check out MB. She doesn't care about what others are going through, she thinks her situation is unique."

This is exactly how H feels - he doesn't want to know about anyone else and can't see that anyone would feel as bad or hopeless as he does.

Quote: "Your H may not realize how lucky he is to have his WW doing all the heavy lifting right now. You are very strong. My WW would have left me by now if I continued to act the way I did at the beginning."

But I don't think or feel like I am doing anything other than surviving. I feel like I'm not helping him or me at all in any way. Perhaps I have painted myself in a better light, but I am just here, that's all, not doing anything particular. And yes, I feel like walking (well running actually). It's funny you mention about recovery, I don't think we're anywhere near to recovery - D-day was only 5th July.

Quote: "I don't know much about a 'reverse' Plan A, which is what it seems you are doing. You H is probably sensing your lack of absolute commitment, and fears the worst. You do need to decide what to do, and if it is to stay in your marriage, your H *must* step up to the plate and do his part in working things out."

I don't think I am reverse plan A'ing - don't think I am doing anything excpet being here. Trying to be polite and not row or shout, but other than that, I'm only here. H doesn't want to do anymore or any less, neither do I, and therein lies the quandry. So you are right I must decide.

Today, I am sad, sad, sad, crying and upset. I do not want to continue anymore. I miss OM beyond belief (why won't it just go away). I want to talk about OM (and I know that's not appropriate here) and not my M. I want to get over him, but I can't see it happening for a long time. Today I even want to contact OM soooooo badly it hurts. I know I can't because it will hurt me more and I cannot lie anymore to H. What to do,what to do?

Lisa <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Lisa,

I'll quote you like you quoted me! It is easier to read, I think.

QUOTE: "This is exactly how H feels - he doesn't want to know about anyone else and can't see that anyone would feel as bad or hopeless as he does."

Right. Just talking to WW this morning and she was saying how everyone's situation is different. Well, that is true, but it is eerie how the WSs all say *exactly* the same stuff! (I love you but I'm not in love with you... I need my space... We didn't mean for this to happen...)

How can your H be persuaded that Anti-Ds help when you feel bad or hopeless? They really do! I have thought about slipping them into my dear WW's coffee <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

QUOTE:"But I don't think or feel like I am doing anything other than surviving. I feel like I'm not helping him or me at all in any way. Perhaps I have painted myself in a better light, but I am just here, that's all, not doing anything particular."

Well, *you* are posting here! That is doing something. I don't see *my* dear WW posting here! (I did have her read this post...) I don't think you have painted yourself in a better light. The fact remains that you are doing more to save your M than your H is at this moment, despite the fact that you are unsure.

QUOTE:"And yes, I feel like walking (well running actually). It's funny you mention about recovery, I don't think we're anywhere near to recovery - D-day was only 5th July."

I think my dear WW feels like running away with OM each and every day. She is still 'in love' with him. I do not consider ourselves in recovery, exactly, but we are close. She realizes that the OM may not be what he seems to be. You are correct, you aren't in recovery since neither you nor he have not committed to your M fully yet.

QUOTE:"I don't think I am reverse plan A'ing - don't think I am doing anything excpet being here. Trying to be polite and not row or shout, but other than that, I'm only here."

You are doing alot more than many WWs. Just read this site and see what some poor BHs are going through. As you know, Princess0413/Tutter and YellowRose have been through what you are going through, and can help you more than I can.

QUOTE:"H doesn't want to do anymore or any less, neither do I, and therein lies the quandry. So you are right I must decide."

Well, Lisa, not all marriages can or should be saved. I made the decision early on that I wanted to keep our marriage, and that I would do what it took to save it. I started off doing all the instinctive but wrong things, which only served to drive her further away. The more I read, and the more I became familiar with MB, the more she has come around, and the more attractive an alternative I have become.

QUOTE:"Today, I am sad, sad, sad, crying and upset. I do not want to continue anymore."

I know how you feel, just from the other side. I cried and cried in a fetal position on the floor for hours. Anti-Ds *will* help very much. Please, for your own sake, look into getting some! You will not regret it!

QUOTE:"I miss OM beyond belief (why won't it just go away)."

My guess is that the OM is more fun (right now) to be around than your H. No bad feelings or difficult situations to deal with. It is a perfect fantasy world.

QUOTE:"I want to talk about OM (and I know that's not appropriate here) and not my M."

I think anything you want to say here is appropriate. You are trying to get help. Talk about the OM all you want. I think that right now, talking about him here instead of with your H will help your situation. Your H is not ready to help you with your feelings just yet.

QUOTE:"I want to get over him, but I can't see it happening for a long time."

This right here tells me a great deal. First, and most importantly, you *want* to get over the OM. This is good. I think my WW has only just begun to want to get over her OM. It took a great deal of work on my part to get her to this point. Second, you realize that eventually, you *can* get over him. My WW does not think her feelings for her OM will ever go away, therefore, she should not stay in the marriage. It has taken work to convince her otherwise. This is what I meant earlier about the heavy lifting. Your H has done little or nothing to win you back, yet you have come this far! It has taken me months to get my dear WW to accept just those two little things!

QUOTE:"Today I even want to contact OM soooooo badly it hurts. I know I can't because it will hurt me more and I cannot lie anymore to H. What to do,what to do?"

You know what (not) to do. Don't contact OM. Don't lie to H either. Come here to vent. Come here to cry about the OM. I can tell you that even though your OM is not the [censored] monster that your H may think he is, he *is* a person of low character, and in the long run will not be able to sustain a healthy relationship. Try to remember that!

Hugs to you, Lisa!!

Your Texas pal,

NSST

<small>[ September 12, 2002, 08:00 AM: Message edited by: Not So Sad Tiger ]</small>

NSST

When did you start to become so insightful?!?!?!

Some things today you said really did touch me.

Funny, I didn't say a lot of that WW stuff to my H, you know "I love you but am not in love with you," etc. I suppose I didn't want to hurt him anymore, maybe even if I thought it....

What I do know is that as you say, each situation is different, but fundamentally, we all end up hurting, whether we're WS or BS, whether the A was an EA or PA, whether we are committed to making a go of our M or not - we're all on that rollercoaster of pain, deceit, lies, anxiety, depression and pure hurt. None of us are different, even the WS who post here, post here because they know what they have done. Some posts are negative about WS(understandably, although most people are soooo supportive), that I want to shout "LOOK HERE!!!! I am a human being who screwed up big time, but that doesn't mean you can tar us all with the same brush. Some of us are trying to do better, even in the smallest possible way of acknowledging that what we did was the worst thing ever" Back to feeling like scum...

OK, if you really don't mind me talking about OM. The bubble never burst, we were incredibly happy and he provided me with all my most important ENs. H wasn't around to do that, and I should have told him rather than get inovlved - as ever, no excuse. However, I know that OM has made a commitment to his M and his 4 small children, and that is why I won't contact him. OM was one of the most uncomplicated people I have ever met - almost to the point of simplicity. I remember once someone saying "OM has his own agenda" and I replied, "OM couldn't even spell agenda let alone have one!" Boy, did he laugh when I told him that.

OM was having a mid-life crisis and I know that, I'm not silly, but that doesn't mean that he didn't care for me or I didn't care for him. I do not know if I will get over him, but realistically I probably will. I hope so, becuase if I cannot stay married, than one day I may meet someone else. However, I am not scared to be single. It frightens me that I may not, but we had something horribly, strangely intense. OK, I am sure you would say this is the fog, but there are certain things that were unique - too personal to discuss here. Maybe, as I say that bubble never burst.

That's what makes it so hard. I don't think I'll ever end up disliking him - we both made our choices around the A. Of course I was vulnerable and alone, but for whatever reason so was he. I don't feel like he used me, because I equally used him. We were both adults and knew what we were doing, although neither of us thought about the potential consequences, and for that I am sorry. If OM is a "person of low character" then so am I.

I am soooooo sorry that my H has been so damaged and hurt, I am sorry that the A caused that, but (please don't think I am so awful), I am glad to have known OM and had what we did. If I could go back, no it wouldn't have happened, I would have talked with H and probably have left him, but OM lightened my life for a time.....

Well, enough for now, I have work to do, but thank you NSST. I am glad you sound so strong and positive. Do you have a link to a first story of your situation?

Lisa

Lisa,

You said something I thought I might comment on.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OM was having a mid-life crisis and I know that, I'm not silly, but that doesn't mean that he didn't care for me or I didn't care for him. I do not know if I will get over him, but realistically I probably will. I hope so, becuase if I cannot stay married, than one day I may meet someone else. However, I am not scared to be single. It frightens me that I may not, but we had something horribly, strangely intense. OK, I am sure you would say this is the fog, but there are certain things that were unique - too personal to discuss here. Maybe, as I say that bubble never burst. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The comment in bold is what I would like to address. You see the fog has little to do with what you felt or feel during a relationship. Those feelings are real and they can be deep. That is why Harley counsels NO CONTACT ever again. Because it is acknowledged that these feels are real and the memory of them won't just disappear.

The fog is about the logic used to justify the affair. The fog is thinking the OP is the "perfect" person. The fog is about how the history of a marriage gets rewritten and only the bad aspects of the spouse and the marriage are recalled. But, the feeings are definitely real and your H surely believes that as do most other BS's.

One of the most interesting aspects of this board is that one gets to see many situations from both sides. One of the more common statements and fears is that the love of the OP won't go away. Yet, it did for the spouse. And because it can be such a changing thing, that is why Harley proposes that love can be reignited between the couple. It won't happen if things don't change, but the feeling of "in-love" is a temporal thing. It must be nutured. This is of course different from deciding and committing to "love" someone, which is a verb and an action.

So don't be soo down Lisa, you and your H are just moving into the 3rd month if memory serves me correctly. As time goes on and if you two give it time, you will see changes in both of you. Time and patience Lisa, that is what it takes to give things their best opportunity.

I am glad that your H is staying in country. It is best for the children, for him, and yes for the chances of your marriage.

God Bless,

JL

JL, I think you should change your name to "Wise Sage"!!! As ever, you always hit the nail on the head with something.

Of course, the feelings of love for my husband have diminished, so of course, one day, they should for OM too! Thank you for pointing that out.

I know time and patience is your catch phrase, but I really don't think H will do that. He has said again and again, that he is not prepared to wait even for six months to see if things change.
One of your first posts to me suggested that this would be a good amount of time to really decide whether or not I could commit to the M, and I have held that in my mind, but with everything that happens, I struggle to keep going. I do not know if it will even be my choice.

Yes, I am glad he has decided not to move away. He spoke with somone else yesterday who advised him that it wasn't a particularly good move to make at this time, so I think he has decided against that. I was really worried about the girls.

JL thank you so much for your advice. I hadn't heard from you for a while, thought I may be going on too much, and you didn't know what else to say to me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Lisa

Lisa,

I know your H is saying he won't try or wait 6 months, but here we are at around 3 months. He hasn't filed for divorce, he hasn't moved out, he is still angry and down. All of this suggests that on one level he believes what he says, but on a deeper level he still loves you.

You see the first six months is really just sort of holding on and letting the feelings, the anger, the pain settle down. That really is the purpose of Plan A or even Plan B. That if people don't hastily (sp) react to the discovery and the feelings for OP, then a more sensible approach can be taken to deciding what will become of the marriage.

Interestingly, if this occurs, and there is no abuse, addictions, etc, then it is often decided to give it a go. This sites' primary premise is that patience and time really help, and that there are active things one can do to not only rebuild the marriage but to develop love for one another.

Neither of you are ready for active work on the marriage, but with time I think you might be. The point is though is NOT to restore the marriage, but to make it much better than it was before the A. Because the A signifies that there were things wrong with the marriage or how the two parties interacted in the marriage.

So step one is Time and Patience and that is what both you and H are doing. Time is moving along and you have showed great patience. I think contrary to what your H is saying he is as well. I also suspect what you are hearing is him trying to take control of some aspect of his life.

I am guessing here but I suspect since his children spend most of their time elsewhere, he doesn't feel he has much control as a father. Since you don't have much desire for him, and had an A, he doesn't feel he has much control over his marriage. He knows he cannot make you love him. He knows he cannot make you desire him. He is acutely aware of his failings. So what can HE do? Talk about leaving is about all that is left. He is trying to salvage something of himself, yet I suspect what he really wants to is to be with you.

Does this make any sense? Does it seem applicable? THat is why it is recommended that perhaps you suspend some of your independent activities. He wants you to show that there is something there, that there is some respect there, but he is afraid to tell you this. He doesn't want to drive you away.

Everyone is caught in a quandry, and that is why time and patience is a good thing. You see I don't know your H nor you for that matter. But I do know you married on another for a reason and those reasons aren't really gone, they are just covered up with the debris of life.

So my advice is to hang in there. The time and patience comment means more than you might think. I don't mean just have patience with him and give him time. I mean have patience with yourself and give yourself plenty of time as well.

I hope something I have said helps.

God Bless,

JL

<small>[ September 12, 2002, 11:47 AM: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</small>

LIL:"When did you start to become so insightful?!?!?!"

About 3 months ago. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

LIL:"Some of us are trying to do better, even in the smallest possible way of acknowledging that what we did was the worst thing ever. Back to feeling like scum..."

You are not scum! You realize what you did was wrong and you are remorseful and trying to make things right. These are not the actions of a scum.

LIL:"I remember once someone saying "OM has his own agenda" and I replied, "OM couldn't even spell agenda let alone have one!" Boy, did he laugh when I told him that."

That is funny!

LIL:"It frightens me that I may not, but we had something horribly, strangely intense. OK, I am sure you would say this is the fog, but there are certain things that were unique - too personal to discuss here. Maybe, as I say that bubble never burst."

Like the Wise Sage JL said, your feelings are not the fog. Your feelings are quite real. That was one of the harder things to understand about what my WW has been going through. At first I discounted her feelings as a puppy crush, or enfatuation. That was really quite insulting to her, as you might expect.

LIL:"If OM is a "person of low character" then so am I."

Sorry about that comment. I am still trying to paint all OMs with the same brush as my WW's OM. He is definately a person of low character, and I am still a bit mad at him.

I don't think you are a person of low character. I think you, like my WW, simply made a bad decision.

LIL:"...but OM lightened my life for a time...."

On some level, I am happy that my WW found a bit of happiness with him. Unfortunately, the cost was very high.

LIL:"Well, enough for now, I have work to do, but thank you NSST. I am glad you sound so strong and positive."

You're welcome! I thank you for the kind words!

LIL:"Do you have a link to a first story of your situation?"

Here you go! Happy reading!

New here - brief story of my WW
Any WWs care to comment?? Question...
News from Tiger Land

NSST

JL and NSST - thanks again for your support.

Unfortunately, there is no reason really to respond. I believe the glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel is out and it is now time to move on.

Last night, we started a coversation where H told me what he would really want for the marriage to move on. He believes that our lives would have to change radically - move from the house, give up cycling, give up the two friends who were involved in his "humiliation and betrayal", put each other first and at the centre of our lives. He said that he wants me to make that commitment and prove that I really want to save our M. He cannot wait for my uncertainty to change.

Anyway, the conversation is fairly short, and later it starts again, but is is negative "words" conversation, ending up with me feeling like he's not listening, and him feeling that I am beating him up again about one little thing. H starts talking about moving out again after ES-D's party and that's it. He comes into the bedroom to apologise, but it sounds more like a rant to me. By this stage it is 11.15pm, and I have a stinking headache and am tired. I ask him please to stop and he walks out. I follow him and he is dismissive.

This is too much for me. For the first time, I tell him that I do not want to do this anymore and I will help him to and let him go. He knows I mean it, I know he means it.

Later in the night H is up and being sick. I wonder whether or not I should say something to him. Before when I have and asked how he is, he says "you don't really care, why are you asking". After the third time and over an hour later, I'm going to ask if he is OK. He comes into the bedroom and says "Thanks for your concern Lisa" and walks out. All concern is now turned against him. I am angry. I go back to him and say "What do you want me to do, go on tell me?" He just says "Go to bed".

This morning he is still defensive and says again about moving out. I say he can do what he likes, I cannot live like this anymore and I do not care. I also say I'm not going to ES-D's party. He may want to pretend to his mother and family until it is over, but I don't. He tells me I will "devestate" her if I do. Tough luck. She is 18 years old, she needs to know the truth. I cannot pretend that everything is rosy when it stinks big time. I cannot go and pretend this "sham" marriage is going somewhere. ES-D will have her family and friends, she will not miss me, she does not need me. I will make it up to her another way.

I was reading "Nothing Special" post. She really wants to make her marriage work. I have nothing to hold on to or want to work. I said last night to H, if I do all these things what will you do? I asked him when he was last nice to me, and he said "I told you I liked your suit". I said that's not being nice. The last time was the Thursday that this post started over two weeks ago.

He asked me the same question. Maybe I haven't been "nice" to him, but I don't "get on at him", like "Well, how many times did you meet OM before you shagged him? In that book (meaning SAA), it says people develop relationships over a long time before they shag". What does this mean, that I am a tart or easy? He also said, "I know you were absolutely legless when you first slept with him, really drunk, weren't you?". This isn't true, but why bother to correct him. That's what he thinks of me, that I'm a drunk, easy lay.

That's not what I think of myself. I have started to forgive myself. Well, no more, friends. I have to stop this destructive behaviour (on both our parts) before we both end up going crazy.

I am sorry that I can not make the commitment that he wants at this time. I am sorry I cannot say "I will do everything in my power to make this M work", I am sorry that I lied, cheated, betrayed, humiliated and wronged him. I am sorry for the A. But I cannot be sorry for the rest of my life and continue living like this. Even when I said to him last night, "I am sorry, I made a mistake, I know.", he just replied, "You made a mistake again, and again, and again and again...." I cannot say anything right.

I am also sorry for this rant. Enough. Time to move on. Thank you all for your support and help.

Lisa

You don't need to apologize for ranting. You are both hurting and it's very hard to have any optimism for the future of the M when he is throwing his resentment bombs at you. Are you both still going to counseling?

no one said it's going to be easy Lisa, and that what life is about, isnt it.
the important thing is to do the right thing now, not the easy thing. you want to look into your eyes in the mirror a couple a years from now and say "it was tough, I did the right thing and now we both went a long way"

good luck. get a rest over the weekend
N

Coffee Man/Nick - thanks for being there.

Coffee Man, we have both committed to IC (I don't know if you remember but H said no to MC after our first disastorous session). Unfortunately, for both of us, our C's have been on holiday and there has been a rather irregular pattern of communication. Equally, I am concerned with my IC, although this is the second I have gone to. She told me that if I commit to C and do not attend for ANY reason (if you are ill, work, etc) you are still charged £20 for the priviledge. Being self-employed and working across the country, sometimes, my work committments have to come first. This does not mean that I am not committed to C, but I have to work to pay for it. I am not a regular 9-5er. This concerns me.

H has out and out refused MC. I hope the IC (which is not until two weeks tomorrow) will help with some of his anger and upset.

I know he is resentful, hurt, angry, betrayed, humiliated, but these sort of conversations average 3/4 a week. I know I am not showing him the love and devotion he wants. BUT, I am not in contact with OM, and I am being honest about how I feel. I am not deliberately hurting him, and trying not to say anything that will cause more pain and upset. I know many BS on this site would love to know that WS was not in touch with OP and at least being honest and open (my London pal Nick for sure).

Nick, I hear what you are saying. I think it is the right time to put some space between us. I cannot trust myself to continue living with the blame and the hurt. I am frightened I will turn on him big time, and then we will really have problems...... I am struggling to hold myself together for his sake, for my sake.

I have never thought of myself as someone to "give up" or give in, but although the outburts are less angry, there is still so much anger about so many things, and these types of conversations (previous post)...well, I can't carrying on coping with it.

How are you Nick, OK? Thanks for thinking of me, and you too Coffee Man. I need the support.

Lisa

Lisa,

Sorry haven't been posting...I don't have time now to say much either although I have lots on my heart and mind to post...I think I have food poisoning so I can't stay and post...

I wanted you to know i had been following your thread...and as soon as I can stay online for more than a few mins i will post back to u.

Stay strong..it will be ok, I promise.

Love,

YR

YR

I wondered if you were OK - I know you had been away, and I'm sorry to hear you are sick - yuk! Poor you.

Don't you worry about me. I'll be OK - am worried though, worried about the mental and physical well being of both of us. His sickness I think was stress related. It was not about eating anything (we had the same), or being poorly. Me, I am regularly getting stress headaches and will soon be a candidate for over-eaters! Frankly, forget the chocolate hob nobs, anything goes at the minute! Seriously, it's like I have no respect for myself so am compensating by eating junk food and plenty of it. This of course upsets me, because (YR as one who knows), struggling with weight is a constant thing for me. It also makes me feel so sluggish, because I do not have the time at the moment to exercise as I want to.

I hope you feel better soon YR.
Lisa

LIL:"JL and NSST - thanks again for your support."

You are welcome. Sorry you are having a rough time of it right now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

LIL:"...I cannot go and pretend this "sham" marriage is going somewhere."

A friend of mine called my marriage a "sham" once. I was offended, and this was before the A. WW and I think this friend is gay and in love with me, so he is usually jealous of my girlfriends and now wife. He has been particularly negative since the A, telling me that I deserve better, and that she is 'gone gone gone.'

LIL:"...she will not miss me, she does not need me. I will make it up to her another way."

I don't know your relationship with this girl, but I suspect that you mean more to her than you might think right now.

LIL:"...in that book (meaning SAA), it says people develop relationships over a long time before they shag. What does this mean, that I am a tart or easy? He also said, "I know you were absolutely legless when you first slept with him, really drunk, weren't you?". This isn't true, but why bother to correct him. That's what he thinks of me, that I'm a drunk, easy lay."

(This is for your H) First of all, no two relationships are exactly alike. SAA only provides examples. For instance, SAA says the sex in an affair is highly passionate. Well, (99.9% sure) my WW did not have intercourse with her OM. So, since SAA says that there is hot sex in an affair, I should assume that she had hot sex with the OM? Just because SAA describes some aspects of an affair, it does not have to be *exactly* like your specific situation.

You (LIL) might also want to look at what he said another way. He is very hurt (of course you know that) and by saying you were drunk, he may not mean that you are a drunk and easy lay; he doesn't want to think you intentionally slept with the OM, rather that you lost control and it happened. It hurts the BS less that way. At first, I wanted to see the OM as a predator who seduced my innocent, unwilling wife into an affair, when in reality, she came on to him first.

I know you are feeling very guilty about all of this, and one way to stop feeling guilty is to get mad and defensive. Please understand that he has every right to be angry about your affair. You must try not to hold his justifiable anger against him. He needs to understand that there is a time and place to express that anger, and you need to validate that anger without getting mad and defensive. What we did is have strictly defined times where I could rant about the affair and she could listen to me and rant back. If at any time either one of us felt too uncomfortable, we could stop the session at once. At all other times, we kept discussion of the affair off limits. That way, I could get my necessary venting done, and she didn't have to walk around in fear that I would jump her [censored] at any given moment.

LIL:"I have to stop this destructive behaviour (on both our parts) before we both end up going crazy."

This is true.

Six weeks after D-Day, the whole time on a major roller-coaster, I finally blew up major league at her. I said alot more hateful stuff than what you have said your H said. I went on and on. I ranted and raved. I told her that she didn't know what love was, I told her to thank the OM for showing me what a whore she was. I knew OM was a 'poet,' (sheesh :rolls eyes: ) so I wrote a poem on the spot for her. "Roses are red, violets are blue, (OM's name) is a f*&^!ng a$$h@!3..." Heh heh. I thought that was damn funny. I screamed and cried and told her that it wasn't right that I should have to fight for my wife. She told me after the fact that she thought I was going to kill her, right then and there! Oh my God! I had no intention of physically hurting her. I was very upset that she even thought I would kill her. I translated that 'woman speak' into English, and what that ultimately meant to me was that she was scared to tell me anything that I might get angry about. I can be a hot-head, and that scared her. I had to learn to be a safe person to tell her feelings to, no matter how much they hurt me. She was and is a conflict-avoider, and since I wasn't taking the hints to change my bad behavior, (staying out late with the boys) she thought I didn't love her anymore and she reached out to the OM.

After that huge blow up, WW moved out of our house and in with her parents. She didn't take all of her stuff, just some clothes and makeup and other girly stuff. We began to 'date' at that point. I made sure to only have fun with her and not bring up the affair at all. We did fun, romatic stuff, like when we were dating. After a month of that, she felt safe enough to move back home and try to reconcile.

It is too bad that your H cannot see that half the battle is already won; your A is over and the OM is out of the picture. I had to wait some time for that to happen in my case. I had to address the reasons why my W strayed. You guys are just a little out of synch, and maybe a short time apart might do you some good. Perhaps you could move in with a friend or relative nearby, let him know it is only temporary, and ask him to date you for a while with relationship talk off limits except for agreed upon times. We were alot further gone than you guys are, and that worked for us.

LIL:"I cannot say anything right."

You are saying the right things, Lisa, he is just not ready to hear them yet. He has not fully processed his emotions. Believe me when I say that being the BS is absolutely the most painful thing I have ever had to experience. It takes time to come to grips with it.

LIL:"I am also sorry for this rant. Enough. Time to move on. Thank you all for your support and help. "

Don't apologize for this 'rant.' It is very insightful. Please don't make any permanent decisions while your emotions are still running high. I do think you both need some space from each other, but I am for an openly TEMPORARY separation, not a full on move-out separation.

All the stuff I have had to do since the blow up has been extremely difficult. I had to act happy and cool all the time I was around her while we were dating. There is NO WAY that I could have done that without the help of the Anti-Depressants. Tell your H that instead of thinking of them as Anti-Ds, think of them as 'mood lifters,' or 'marriage savers.'

Please don't give up yet, you guys are early in this thing. Emotions are still very raw. I know that not every marriage can or should be saved, but you have already come so far. Hopefully you can wait long enough for your H to catch up.

I am thinking about you, Lisa! I wish you and your H the best...

NSST

Lisa,

All I can say is that NSST just nailed it. Please read his advice very carefully.

God Bless,

JL

<small>[ September 13, 2002, 01:09 PM: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</small>

Oooh, thanks JL! That means alot coming from you! <blush> I've seen you nail it countless times!

Lisa, you hang in there, girl!

Your Texas Fan Club!

OK - things stagger from bad to worse.

I have just had the Police on the telephone. "Hello, is that Lisa"

Me "Yes"

P "This is PC X from X police station in connection with OM"

Me, (heart sinks, me thinks, he's dead)

P "Is your H X. Well, Mr OM has telephoned us to say that he is telephoning him leaving threating messages and has also sent him a tape threatening to kill him etc. I need to speak to your H. I would like to do this off-the-record or we will have to arrest him for harrassment"

I am just devastated - what I have done to my H to make him behave like this? Also, that OM couldn't first telephone/e-mail/text me and say "Get him to back off or I'll call the Police". Frankly, he should take some responsibility for his behaviour too. God only knows what the tape said that made OM call in the Police. How many more messages he has left since he came home from Germany on that night?

I made it clear I had nothing to do with it (even though I am soooo upset, I still have to try and protect myself as well as H).

H is out, don't know where he is, left his mobile at home. I am scared, scared this will send him over the edge.

Think of me please - I don't know what will happen when he comes home.

Lisa

P.S. Will post again when I can