LIL:"I am just devastated - what I have done to my H to make him behave like this?"

If I had known the OM's number right off the bat, I would have done the same thing. It is a male thing. We want to kill the sorry SOB who messed around with our wife.

LIL:"Also, that OM couldn't first telephone/e-mail/text me and say "Get him to back off or I'll call the Police". Frankly, he should take some responsibility for his behaviour too."

Your attitude is correct here, and you know how I feel about all OMs! (Slimey, dirty, rat [censored]!)

LIL:"(even though I am soooo upset, I still have to try and protect myself as well as H)."

I like your attitude of protection for your H, this is good. I understand why you are upset.

LIL:"I am scared, scared this will send him over the edge."

I am sorry you are scared. Hopefully, this episode will help him decide to get some help in the form of Anti-Depressants. He *really* needs them, and they would help you too!

LIL:"Think of me please - I don't know what will happen when he comes home."

Thinking of you, Lisa...

Briefly, OM is big rat. Can't believe what he has done.

Will post tomorrow, but OM has blown all out of proportion.

I believe H completely, OM can go to **** or an even worse place.....

Lisa

Hey, London Girl!

I am sure you will make sure that H knows you feel that way about OM.

It is my opinion that there is no such thing as an OM (who knows that what he is doing is adultery) who is a decent person. Have no experience with OWs so I cannot comment.

WWs and WHs seem to come in all flavors, good, bad and somewhere in between. I realize that I could have just as easily slipped into an affair and been the WH.

There is no justification whatsoever to be the OM. That is something I would never, ever do, and I know that for a fact. (When I was single, I was propositioned by a gorgeous MW who I had a secret crush on, and turned her down flat.)

Since my WWs EA, I have come to believe that being the OM is an unforgiveable sin.

Proverbs 6:32
The one who commits adultery with a woman is lacking sense; He who would destroy himself does it.

Proverbs 6:33
Wounds and disgrace he will find, And his reproach will not be blotted out.

The last sentence is what makes me believe that the sin is unforgiveable.

Of course, I am not God. And not everyone interprets this the same way, or even believes in it. These are my opinions only. Your mileage may vary. Sorry to preach, but OMs really make my blood boil. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

NSST

Dear Lisa,

I'm sorry you are going through this - I hope that by this time things are a little calmer.

In my consultations with my solicitor, she said that men who are out of control with their anger often need an encounter with the police before they realize how serious their behaviour has become. It's upsetting and humiliating, especially for someone who has never found himself in that kind of position before, but it is also a "higher authority" telling them that their behaviour is not OK. For most, it is enough to shake them into reality and help them get a grip.

You said why didn't the OM call me first. But if he had called you first, do you not think that in your present state of estrangement from your H, that there would have been a very strong chance that this could have revived some kind of attachment between you. I think it was better that he did not call you.

OK, you say that he has blown everything out of proportion in his call to the police - perhaps that is true. Now you know the true colours of your OM. What the BS on these boards learn in this process is that the WS and their lover live in a fantasy land where most things are rosy - the WS rarely sees the negative aspects of their lover, and brushes aside the fact that the OP is actively lying and cheating on his own S. Now you know that your OM is not such a wonderful person after all. I am really sorry that this has happened, and I hope that your H calms down soon. I can imagine how frightening this must be.

I still think that you and your H can build a better marriage out of this experience. He needs counselling for himself right now to help him deal with this anger. I think the depth of his anger is also a sign of how much he loves you.

Will be thinking about you.

LIR

OK, here's the story.

NSST - I use the term OM - he is M with 4 children, so I suppose he is WH to his W. Not sure what I'm saying, but my H thinks he saw me as vulnerable and used that. Me, I think we used each other.

H sent OM a tape with an Oasis song and a note saying "This isn't over yet". No threats to his life or anything. H has not telephone OM since the day he returned from Germany - 6th August. The Police said to me that H had been telephoning and threating (making it sound like all the time), and he threatened to kill him. H has never spoken to OM - he left 3 messages on his mobile and one on his home machine (when I was there too on that awful night on 6th August).

OM in a somewhat deluted state thinks that he has threatened his life. I am so furious with him for not only making such a fuss (not standing up to his own actions in this), making H out to be crazy man, and also dragging me down with it too. When H spoke to the Police, he actually said "I don't know why you didn't come down here and punch him!" H replied "Too far to go". Why OM could not even have sent me an e-mail saying don't respond, but if you don't tell him I'll go to the Police. Even leave a message on our machine for H. Did he not think of the effect this may have on me, or was I just some trollop or tart who means nothing now that he's doing his penance.....?

Anyway, I was really upset, and on Saturday am went to tennis. Some guy there was quite aggressive with the way that he spoke to me and I came home early.

I got in, and I just sort of starting talking with H and then collapsed - mini meltdown. Started crying uncontrollably, really heaving and sobbing, everything that I've been trying to bottle up just came out. After the previous week, Sunday phone calls/abuse, Thursday night upset, Friday Police, the anger with OM, I think it was the final straw and I couldn't take it.

H was really worried, tried to persuade me to go to my family, or away to a hotel. Couldn't do anything but cry (still crying now, that's why I couldn't even get on the PC yesterday to post). H said he promised to look after me then if I stayed, apologised for everything again, didn't realise how much I had been burdening etc., wants to care for me.

I honestly think I'm cracking/have cracked up. The Police and that OM betrayal (did he not have any thought about how that might affect me) I think has finally pushed me to my limit.

I am grateful to H for trying to support me, but I think it is too late. I don't think I can get over the upset. I know I have caused it and it is my fault, but I have never felt like this before. When OM and I first went our separate ways I thought I was breaking, when H found out I thought it was the worst 48 hours of my life, but not like this. This is just too much. I don't know what to do or what I want to do. I want to be by myself, I want to go to my Mum, I want to talk, I don't want to talk. I am soooooo angry with OM, it is untrue - I want him to suffer as I am, and I have a plan that would make that easy. See, going mad, I want revenge, and I want it badly.

Finally, H is being nice to me, saying nice things, doing everything for me - I don't think I want or can cope with it.

I seriously do not think I can cope anymore, I am going down the tubes rapidly. This is not me.

Lisa

Dear Lisa,

((((((((((((Lisa))))))))))

Clearly you are in a bad way, but hopefully, this will be the worst. We reach these times when we say, it can only get better from here. And that's what it appears to me, from your post.

You are exhausted emotionally, and it is natural, when you are in this state, to have little to give your H. At least try to recognize that this episode, although feeling terribly negative right now, is actually a positive thing. The scales have dropped from your eyes about OM. Your H has enough self-control not to go beyond the bounds of decency, even though he is rightly furious. You have been holding so much in, afraid to be completely honest with him, and it has all been too much for you. You have finally lost control of yourself and your barriers have come down. Your H can see you now for who you really are, hurting, sad, angry, but also, a woman who has done her best to do the honorable thing - most likely he sees the woman he still really loves. Isn't it better to be loved by someone who sees you with open eyes, than to be loved by someone who just fits you in to what works for him?

Your H loves you - his reaction to your collapse couldn't say this any louder - he wanted you to go to your mother's - if he thought leaving him was what was best for you, he would do it willingly - but he was telling you that if you stayed he would take care of you - he wants to take care of you. Sometimes there are those times when it is appropriate to just sit together with your arms around each other, not talking.

Another poster, who used to post to me, had a similar experience as you, except that his wife carried on an active affair, until it became clear that the OM would do anything to protect his own career, even if it meant ditching her and ruining her reputation at work. She cried in bed all day when she finally realized how she had been used, and he held her - this was very tough for him, but he cared about her, even if her pain was over another man. Many married people have been through what you are going through now. I am sure that you and your H can come out of this with a stronger marriage.

Please try to turn away from your desire for revenge. In the end, this will only hurt you. My parents marriage broke up over another woman when I was 12. Some years later, my mother received a call from the OW. OW was in a depressed and hysterical state - having some kind of a breakdown. She said to my mother that she was sorry for stealing her husband (she was a pretty devious OW) and how could anyone ever forgive her. My mother told me that she realized that at that moment she could have had her revenge. She could have pushed OW over the edge mentally - it would have been very easy. But my mother has a lot of personal self-respect. She has always tried to tell me to never stoop to the level of someone who is trying to hurt you. And this time she stood by her own principles. She was gentle with the OW as best she could be. OW got through that episode in her life - and both have respect for my mother. This helped them all to be able to co-operate reasonably well during my brothers final schizophrenic illness. You see, the pay-offs are never what you might think. Revenge just drags you down into the muck. You will be happier with yourself years down the road if you resist this desire.

I know this is a bad time for you, but I believe you can get through this. You have shown yourself to be a thoughtful person with a lot of personal integrity, despite your mistakes. Everyone makes mistakes. Not everyone tries to face them and rectify them, but you have. I hope with time, that you can forgive yourself, too.

LIR

Lisa - sorry it has taken me so long to reply. I regret you are going through so much pain ((((Lisa)))))

Quote: “OK, if you really don't mind me talking about OM. The bubble never burst, we were incredibly happy and he provided me with all my most important ENs. H wasn't around to do that, and I should have told him rather than get involved”

Quote: “OM was one of the most uncomplicated people I have ever met - almost to the point of simplicity. I remember once someone saying "OM has his own agenda" and I replied, "OM couldn't even spell agenda let alone have one!" Boy, did he laugh when I told him that.”

Lisa – part of what you are going through now is that your ‘bubble’ is bursting after the fact. The blinders are falling away from your eyes and the true nature of the OM is being revealed to you. I have gone through exactly what I feel you are going through right now. OK – about the OM being uncomplicated….IMHO, his actions show him not to be who you thought he was. Calling the police?

The overwhelming guilt and anguish just from having the A, the pain and remorse of how I hurt my H, was ultimately made so much worse when I realized the real nature of the OM…and how I had caused so much suffering over someone who in the end…turned out to not be the man I thought he was…it was like the grief and pain..and yes…SO MUCH anger was pouring over me like a tidal wave. I felt like I was drowning in it. I couldn’t think, didn’t want to be with anyone…I wanted to be alone…I wanted to curl up in a ball..sometimes I just wanted to die so it would be over and I wouldn’t have to feel that way anymore. It is weird…and I know this is going to sound very selfish…and I pray I don’t upset the BS’s here..but I need to say this…..I was more heartbroken and disappointed over the discovery that the OM wasn’t who I thought he was than I was about having the A itself. I was in the depths of despair and I had kids, a job, an angry H…and everyone pulling at me and needing things from me…and I felt incapable of meeting anyone’s needs..even my own. I couldn’t bring myself to tell my H..”I am heartbroken too, I am just now realizing that I was used…that I meant nothing to the OM…and that I broke your heart..and my own…all for nothing…”

I can feel your emotions all throughout your posts…and in between the lines…do you feel betrayed by the OM? Sure sounds like it…I know I felt that way. It hurts terribly, doesn’t it? Not only do you have the torture of knowing how you hurt H, you also now probably feel guilty and responsible for the OM calling the police..even though part of you probably thinks that H shouldn’t have called the OM at all…I bet deep down inside this is feeding into the false image you are holding onto of yourself as this bad person….have you noticed that in at least 4 posts you have referred to yourself as scum…or a tart….you, I feel, are having almost the hardest time dealing with your betrayal. In many ways, it would almost (ok, BS’s…I said almost <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) rival the betrayal your H is feeling. Your H is dealing with the A in some inappropriate ways..just like my H..with the angry outbursts…the verbal abuse…and you, in turn, internalize all that he says..and even though you get angry…I think you are taking his words….and what you think he is saying..or not saying…and your own thoughts and recriminations..and making them your ‘truth’ about yourself…i.e Lisa is scum, Lisa is a tart…Lisa was easy…Lisa must be a bad person or she wouldn’t have done this..maybe Lisa should just be alone so she can’t hurt anyone else like this again..NOW…I need you to listen…Lisa is NOT a tart, she IS NOT scum…and most certainly she is NOT a bad person. Did you make a mistake? Yes. Did you hurt yourself and others? Yes. OK…we know you accept responsibility for it..and I know you would never ever do it again. Lisa, until you can start to forgive yourself…you will not begin to heal over this. Your M..and it’s chances for survival are hampered by this. I know you aren’t sure what you want…that is very normal for a WS…

I was so mixed up…and in so much shock…that I was incapable for a while of making any decision about my M, my H…..even the OM. I really think you should go to your Mum’s for a few days. It sounds like a place where you could sort out some of what you are feeling in a clearer light…a safe place…where you can start to deal with what you are going through. Please, please, please do not make any decisions about your M…or about calling the OM’s wife until after you have started to come back down from this roller-coaster emotionally tormented high. I try never to make decisions that are going to have a profound impact on either my life or someone else’s until I am out of the grips of whatever emotion is prompting me to ‘act’ on something. In the heat of the moment is the WORST time to make a decision.

Quote: “Last night, we started a coversation where H told me what he would really want for the marriage to move on. He believes that our lives would have to change radically - move from the house, give up cycling, give up the two friends who were involved in his "humiliation and betrayal", put each other first and at the centre of our lives. He said that he wants me to make that commitment and prove that I really want to save our M. He cannot wait for my uncertainty to change.”

Lisa – let me ask you something…why would your uncertainty need to change in order for you to give your H what he is asking for? Can you commit to do as he has asked for 6 months? During the very worst of times when I was going through exactly what you are going through…feeling on edge of nervous breakdown, etc….I kept asking myself why in the heck I wanted to put myself through this torture for someone I wasn’t even sure I wanted to be married to!! I thought that was insane! I truly felt deep feelings of relief when I visualized myself divorced and on my own. I rationalized that since I was so ambivalent about the M and how I felt about H (which did not begin to compare to what I thought I had with OM)…I was in actuality doing H a favor also by ‘setting him free’ to find someone who could love him the way he deserved..and who would not CHEAT on him. I felt I would be doing him a favor. I finally realized that I was wrong to trust ‘feelings’….I was wrong to base a decision like this on emotions alone. I had heard over and over that love is a decision not a feeling..and while I can intellectually acknowledge some truth in that…I doubted that premise when I thought about it for long periods of time. I always rationalized that love really is a feeling..and an emotion..although it could be a decision also. Kind of a contradiction, huh? Then I would further muck it up by thinking that I didn’t decide to fall in love with the OM, it just happened.

Ugh…I hope I didn’t just lose you with the rambling above…let me put it this way…do you care about your H enough…from a ‘fellow human being’ point of view…forget the ‘love’ point of view…to sacrifice and give him what he is asking for for a period of time? In 6 months…if those 2 friends are truly friends..they will still be there for you…cycling will be there for you…I really feel like you will be risking very little that matters in the end..in order to potentially gain so much more. Worst case scenario: you go through the 6 months…you do as H has asked…you put him at center of your life EVEN IF YOU DON’T REALLY FEEL THIS WAY…and you find you are still ambivalent. Well, you have given your H some time to heal…yourself some time to heal…and have given it your all. You have sacrificed stuff in order to try one last time to make things right. Heck, I may get flamed for this….but I have put up with some stuff in order to show some atonement for my A. However, I do agree with one thing…the abuse stuff has to stop. Many BS’s though, have shared with me that they did much the same with their WW’s….the verbal/emotional abuse seems to come mostly from BS’s that are male. Not many of the female BS’s have shared with me that they did this with WH’s…so I am unsure about this point. I became willing to let some of the anger stuff, name calling stuff slide for a bit because of this.

Quote: “He also said, "I know you were absolutely legless when you first slept with him, really drunk, weren't you?". This isn't true, but why bother to correct him. That's what he thinks of me, that I'm a drunk, easy lay.”

Lisa – I feel like he is trying, in his mind, to excuse your behavior. He is wanting to feel like there is no way you would have hurt him like that if you were sober. He is not trying to say you were a drunk, easy lay. He is trying to make himself feel better about the A.

No one is saying you have to be sorry the rest of your life..or suffer forever because of a mistake. I promise you that. Six months is so little a time compared with the rest of your life, my friend…so very little time. An attempt to make things right..a chance to help your H get to a different place than he is now. Not everyone is given a chance to try again..don’t be too quick to think you shouldn’t…just because you don’t know if you really want to. We don’t always get a chance to make things right..sometimes people pass on before we get around to calling them that one time just to tell them we love them…or just to say “I’m sorry”..and have them believe us…or helping them to get to a better place emotionally so they can move on and let go if that is what the final decision is. You don’t want to carry all this yucky A baggage with you for the rest of your life do you? I feel you will if you get out now. I really do.

Quote: “H was really worried, tried to persuade me to go to my family, or away to a hotel. Couldn't do anything but cry (still crying now, that's why I couldn't even get on the PC yesterday to post). H said he promised to look after me then if I stayed, apologised for everything again, didn't realise how much I had been burdening etc., wants to care for me.”

OK, Lisa..my lovely London friend..yes, I can say ‘lovely’ because I can tell you are..inside and out. Yes, your H has been abusive…yes he has been angry..furious…and unkind. He also has done all of the above. There are some redeemable qualities in this guy. Some guys would have left you cold after an A (and no, I'm not saying you should bow down and kiss his feet just because he didn't leave you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ). Would have already filed for a D. Yes, I know, perhaps you are wishing your H would have in a way…to absolve you of having to do it. Sounds like H is remorseful for his behavior, too? Do you agree? One thing I have found Lisa, is that yes, while there are other men out there..maybe others you could find true happiness with…a huge majority are not what they seem to be. Seems like the good ones are far and few between..and many of these are already married. Especially as we get older. Your H may just be a ‘diamond in the rough’…and maybe everything that has happened, in the end, if you BOTH can become willing enough to do what it takes…will reveal what you both can be. Heck, girl…there are SOOOO many jerks out there, do you want some other girl to be the one who finds out just what kind of a great H your man can be? After all you have invested here? After all the pain? Good grief…you might as well hang in for the good stuff after all this crud! LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> You be the person who discovers what this man can be..or not be. Don’t leave it up to someone else. Also, don't think I am encouraging you to 'settle'. I'm not. I want you to attempt to do as he is asking...to see if he is the kind of man in the end, that you could have a great marriage with....not a mediocre one.

Man, this is gonna be one long post..hang in there with me, ok?

Quote: “Finally, H is being nice to me, saying nice things, doing everything for me - I don't think I want or can cope with it.”

Oh, I so relate to this. The nicer H was…the worse I felt sometimes. I didn’t want him to be nice…I didn’t want him to ‘complicate’ my decision. His anger, at least, I could use to help ‘justify’ my decision to leave him. His kindness…well, his kindness threw me off kilter. It ‘muddied’ the waters. Where was his kindness when I wanted it? Hhmm? Why now? Why when I had made up my mind? GGRRRRRR…

OK, I’m going to share with you something that is somewhat personally embarrassing. One time..when we were separated..and I was still having an EA with the OM…I got really bad food poisoning (wow, just realized this is 2nd time I have had this this year). This episode was worst one in my entire life. It hit me when I was driving in my car!! There was nothing, and I mean literally NOTHING I could do. It hit me with NO warning…I could not pull over…there was nowhere to stop…I was on the freeway in the middle of nowhere. If you have ever had food poisoning, I think you know what probably happened. I was sick all over myself..and all over my car. There was nothing I could do except keep driving…this is what I told myself. Actually, I should have pulled over but I didn’t. I just wanted to get home without anyone seeing me…and crawl into my house…and wash up. I actually thought I was going to pass out a couple of times. I had no control over anything with my body. I won’t go into further details on this. My H and kids pulled up right after I had reached home (in middle of day). They thought is was unusual that I was home. I was in the bathroom trying desperately to clean myself up while continuing to be sick. I told them what happened. H went out and looked at car with kids…and I could hear them saying “ooh, gross…”…the kids that is…H was more tactful. I was burning up with shame in the bathroom. H said “your car is going to need to be cleaned out”. I told him “yes, I know..I’m going to do it as soon as I can”…I just wanted them all to go away so I could clean it up by myself. I was sooo humiliated!! While I was stuck in the bathroom..my H went to the store, rented one of those water-vacuum things..came back..and proceeded to work on my car for about 4 hours trying to get it all cleaned out. I begged him to please not do this…that I was so ashamed of the mess…and he said “You’re my wife…you should not be embarrassed…I should be the one to do this for you..” and for one of the first times…I didn’t think “well, maybe you should have thought of this a long time ago..and stayed employed…” I was just grateful…but it was very painful too…I don’t know how to explain it…I just thought of how I didn’t deserve it…that I had cheated on him, etc. Here is the really BAD part….after he left….he was covered with sweat from working in the Texas heat on my van, I called the OM…to tell him what had happened…and what H did for me..and OM said “gee, I don’t think I could have done that…maybe I would have taken your car in some where…” Maybe??!! Maybe!!?? Maybe he would have????? Mr. Perfect…Mr. Love of my Life…MIGHT have tried to help me out…if he could have??? What the sh*t is that? Huh???? So OM would have maybe stayed employed…but he couldn’t help care for me in a severe illness??? And when I got older…and had wrinkles…and no longer ‘lit his fire’…would he be there for me? No, he would not have…but my H would. OM had a problem with wanting his ‘woman’ to be thin. He disliked heavy women. I asked my H about this after we got back…because I had lost 70 pounds during separation. I asked him if he liked me better now..and he said “when you were heavier, it didn’t matter, I always thought you were beautiful”. Lisa, I guess what I’m trying to say…is to keep me going…to keep me trying to stay with this M…is stuff like this…is reminding myself that there are enough qualities here to hang onto…if the rest can be worked out.

Sorry this is so long, I will stop now. Please let me know how you are. Please go to your Mum’s for a few days. Please get some anti-d’s. I am familiar with herbs and St. John’s Wort. I always try herbal first. I feel you need true anti-d’s. I didn’t think I did but I started back on them a few weeks ago and it has made a world of difference. Please find some way to scrape the money up, borrow from people if you need to…to pay for a call with Steve Harley for your H and you. Pawn something if you need to. It will be well worth it.

Love,

YR

<small>[ September 16, 2002, 04:45 PM: Message edited by: YellowRose ]</small>

Hey Lisa... {{{LISA}}}

YellowRose is right. She has been a great help to me in understanding the WW point of view. Please listen to her, especially regarding the Anti-Ds. I *know* I have been a broken record about this with you, but you won't believe how much better you will feel once you get on them. Your H too.

One thing, from my point of view...

LIL:"I am soooooo angry with OM, it is untrue - I want him to suffer as I am, and I have a plan that would make that easy. See, going mad, I want revenge, and I want it badly."

Even though your feelings are very strong, and possibly a bit unhealthy about OM, as a BS, I would *LOVE* hearing this from my WW. She is not at the point where she hates the OM, instead, she still loves him, and refuses to actually write a NC letter. She thinks she doesn't need to, since she thinks he won't ever call her again. I think she should write the letter. This is an empasse right now, and I am not going to press the issue since everything else is going well.

I cannot tell you how much better it would make me feel if my WW could tell me that she finally sees the OM for what he is - a scumbag. She firmly believes that he loves her. I firmly believe that he just wanted to use her, and was saying whatever it took to get her in the sack.

I am going to need some help, probably from Jennifer, on how to get through the refusal to do a formal NC letter. I will post a new thread to ask for some opinions.

Like YR said, don't make any decisions in the heat of the moment. Let yourself cool down before you act. Do not allow yourself or your H to seek revenge on the OM. I really want to get the OM in my case, but I know that would only make everything worse, and lower myself to his level. He can just go to hell as far as I am concerned. He is not worth one second more of my time.

Love from Texas!

NSST

p.s. Oh yeah, if anyone sent me an Oasis <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> tape, I would call the police too! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<small>[ September 15, 2002, 06:25 PM: Message edited by: Not So Sad Tiger ]</small>

Hey Lisa,
What a [censored], the OM. Aplogogise my french, but if he rats to the police without considering your (or even your H) feelings a bit, then he's clearly not worth it, or is he.
Understand that you need a break. You lived apart for 2 years, and naturally, to be suddenly together, under more than difficult circumstances, is not the easiest thing. But whatever you do, try to keep the contact, try to be nice, try to be constructive.
N

Good morning everybody. Firstly, thanks so much for your support and cyber hugs. Frankly, I was still in such a state yesterday I don't know how I got through. I am up and working today (I have an awful lot of work on), but thought I'd take a break to respond. I have read all the responses carefully, twice! YR, blimey, you can say so much, and so accurate - it's that spooky cosmic pshycic thing again.

Well, let's see. I feel a bit calmer today, but still crying a lot. H has been really great, although a little quiet himself yesterday at times. I don't know how I feel scared/angry/hurt end of the rope sort of thing. LIR I hope you are right and that it can't get any worse. I kept thinking, no it won't get worse, but this weekend it did.....

So in reverse, Nick - I am MAD MAD <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> beyond belief with OM. Is he worth it? I suppose I am so angry because I didn't think he would ever hurt me deliberately. I am trying to make excuses for him (and H agrees) that quite probably he told his W and she encouraged him to take that action. I know he is trying to work things out, so inevitably if she said go to the Police, he would do what it takes..... No, still don't hate him, but think he has behaved in a cowardly, ungentlemanly (he always thinks he's such a gentleman), spiteful, malicious way. If my H had wanted to genuinely harm him, he would have been down there well before now.

NSST: "Please listen to her, especially regarding the Anti-Ds. I *know* I have been a broken record about this with you, but you won't believe how much better you will feel once you get on them. Your H too."

H has categorically denied depression, and I don't think he is. I think he is angry, hurt, upset etc. but he feels these are emotions he can deal with and that he is not depressed. Me, I am not so sure anymore. I will try and get an appointment with the Dr this week and see what she says. I suppose if I was really depressed, I wouldn't have got up again this morning but, I did. Inherently, I think woman are copers...

As to the revenge thing (which everyone has mentioned), I would not do anything to his wife. Just thought that a carefully worded e-mail to his company (he is CE), to all his sales people and contact people telling them that this "lovely" man is actually a coward, liar, cheater on his oh so lovely wife and 4 kids..... Make him squirm a bit, put him down in the eyes of the people he likes to "lead by example". Yeah right..... Will think about that, but both H and I would love to do that...

YR - firstly hope you are feeling better after the food poisoning. Again, you always say what I think or feel. How are things going for you? You have said so much, that most of it is for reflection and thought. But a couple of things..

YR: "I can feel your emotions all throughout your posts…and in between the lines…do you feel betrayed by the OM?"

Absolutely!!! I never ever did anything to hurt him deliberately. I backed off I left him to it, I didn't contact him etc. Yes, the bubble is slowly deflating. A friend of mine said, he is also telling YOU in no uncertain terms - I'm getting on with my life. She also said his actions are almost like not taking the blame - there were two people involved, but he's making it look as if it was only me.

You know all that stuff about how I feel about myself, in one recent post I really felt as if I was beginning to forgive myself, but this past week has dragged me down. I feel that it has reinforced what a terrible thing I did. I said to H on Saturday I was scum, and he got really upset about that saying I wasn't. I think you are right that he says certain things because he doesn't want to think that I made active choices about my behaviour...

I would love to get away to my Mum's but work won't allow it in the distant future - typical, I am completely overloaded at the moment, but I won't make any snap decisions at the moment.

YR: "I really feel like you will be risking very little that matters in the end..in order to potentially gain so much more"

All you said about how you were feeling made so much sense - he'd be better off without me, I've caused him too much pain, I don't know how we can live together again etc. But I'm scared to give up the things that kept me going when he wasn't here - the things that have become part and parcel of me as a human being and a more rounded individual. I don't want to resent him for not being able to do the things that I enjoy. As we don't have our own children, I find it difficult to imagine spending all my time with H - the other things were the bits that kept me busy and I enjoyed to do with other people. I have always had lots of friendships that I enjoy. I just don't know if I can do it. I am a very selfish person, coupled with the fact that I don't know if I can just keep this life going. I am not very good at pretending and would need to pretend a lot. I wear my heart on my sleeve....

Oh no!!! The sick story!!!! Yucky!!! My H would do that for me to, I'm sure. He has many redeemable qualities - he has not being showing them recently because I think he is behaving like a wounded animal - lashing out. Will think about the Harleys and anti-Ds. H has gone off SAA a bit recently after the first revelation...

LIR thank you too for your sound words. It is partly that OM would hurt me so badly, but it was the final straw really - on top of the night before, the whole week, the whole 2+ months of ups and downs. It wasn't so much about him, but coping anymore.

LIR: "Revenge just drags you down into the muck. You will be happier with yourself years down the road if you resist this desire."

Yes, but it would make me feel a whole lot better! I wouldn't do anything to his W specifically - she's probably suffered enough, but I really think he needs to be told how destructive his unneccesary behaviour has been. Well, I won't do anything rash.

Thank you again for all your support everyone.

Lisa

Lisa,

You have been some very insightful advice from LIL and YR. But, I think there is more to it than perhaps you realize. What I think you are missing is that for the first time the consequences and meaning of the A are coming clearer to you. The Fog is lifting.

I would counsel... Time and Patience. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Surprise!!!!

Why? What is hard to realize is that there is a process going on here. Now you are aware of the part of the process following discovery, but I don't think you are a mindful of the process BEFORE your A ended. In order, for you to engage in the affair a variety of things needed to happen. YOu had to be relatively unhappy with the status of your marriage.

But what you perhaps are just now realizing is that you had adjust your perspective of your H. You unconscioulsy began to focus on all of your H's faults, and not focus on his attributes. This is normal and required in order for you to emotionally handle the A. Next, your OM needed to be vastly superior to your H, so you focus on his good points, and not focus on his failings. Not the least of which is that he could cheat on a W and 4 children.

As you did this, the "fog" comes into play. Your ability to evaluate the reality of the situation is impaired. Your feelings are real and very deep, but the reality isn't is not how you wish it to be. All of this seems to be normal. If one were a sociopath, this wouldn't be necessary, but you are not. You are a normal decent human being, and you knew and know what you were doing was not what you wanted to do or should have done.

I suspect this last weeks events have begun to strip away abit of this fog. You are now facing that your H is perhaps has more feelings for you than you have recently thought, and your OM is human after all and not a terribly brave one at that.

These revelations are a great deal like the revelations your H and other BS go through when the affair is discovered. People are not how you preceived them to be. It takes Time and Patience for all of this to normalize itself. Only then can you really evaluate your marriage. Please note that your H is going through the same thing in many ways.

So please give it time and have patience with yourself and your H. You will have plenty of time to evaulate the whole thing once the emotions of these discoveries settle down. You see this is what a major portion of the MB approach is. Letting the feelings settle and then talking and evaluating what people really want to do. This takes time as you know. So give it that.

Hang in there.

JL

Sorry double post
JL

<small>[ September 16, 2002, 11:13 AM: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</small>

Hello JL oh ever wise one <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

JL "But what you perhaps are just now realizing is that you had adjust your perspective of your H. You unconscioulsy began to focus on all of your H's faults, and not focus on his attributes."

I think this is exactly what I did. Some of the things I tell H about how I felt when he did certain things (or didn't) during the A exacerbates him. He thinks that he was the same as he always was. The only thing he conceeds is that he did go to Germany and during that time he gave me all the independence that I wanted or asked for.

JL: "You are now facing that your H is perhaps has more feelings for you than you have recently thought, and your OM is human after all and not a terribly brave one at that."

One of the things that I have felt is that I didn't realise how much H loved me. He has said to me that I am the only person he has truly loved in his life (even though he was married before). I find it a bit scary. OM - is he human? I don't know about that, but he is cowardly, and spiteful. Still don't hate him though....

JL: "You will have plenty of time to evaulate the whole thing once the emotions of these discoveries settle down."

I DO understand what you are saying. I feel so shattered it is untrue. I went to IC last night and started bawling again. It feels pretty hopeless for me right now. I am not coping well, but must.

Thanks JL.

Lisa

<strong>
One of the things that I have felt is that I didn't realise how much H loved me. He has said to me that I am the only person he has truly loved in his life (even though he was married before). I find it a bit scary.
</strong>

Scary?? Hey Lisa - it's actually beautiful! You're married to a person who loves you. A person who loves you more than anyone else on the planet, ever in his life.

You're a very lucky woman, Lisa.

Maybe you are right Nick, but I find it rather overwhelming. Perhaps it is because I don't think I deserve anything too much at the moment, perhaps it is because I don't know if I can reciprocate.

If (and I mean if, because I don't know) I am unwilling to give up friends or hobbies because they are part of me and what makes me who I am, how can I begin to love so unconditionally?

I was reading another post this morning, and in it (can't remember who it was), the person was saying that her friend had taught her to be more focused and concentrate on herself. The person who replied suggested that this could mean becoming self centred and selfish, and that unconditional love is selfless, putting others needs and well being ahead of yours. Well, I reckon I am that self centred and selfish person, and that I am not capable of doing this because my love is not selfless and has in fact been totally selfish and self centred.

Oh Nick, so messy and horrible isn't it? How are you anyway?

Lisa

Hi Lisa,

Agree with your last statement; wasn&#8217;t it a famous Brit (Hume? Locke?) who said: "Life is brutish, nasty & short".
Joking aside, my view on the subject (from the BS perspective) is the following: Self-denial is bad. To cast yourself completely aside, ignore your needs, wishes etc is bad. But I believe one has to set priorities. Life is about making choices, and - unfortunately - some of these choices are mutually exclusive. So from my point of view, the BS view, I can't be with a wife who is still in contact with OM. I can't even be with my wife if she does all the activities which remind her of the sweet times with OM (like, going to a park they always went to visit together or something).
So, if the question is about your cycling activity, then I'm afraid, your narrowed down your choices here as your husband associates it with OM. I have to say, I understand him. Now: make a smart choice. What is more important to you: cycling or husband? Same story with friends. There are 2-3 friends of my wife who know the story. Do I want to meet them ever again? No. I mean, Christ, I would have horns coming out of my head bigger than a red deer. Again - to move on, it's an either - or.
Does that mean that you have to throw EVERYTHING away? No, of course not. Only the few activities that are strongly associated with OM. By the way - you should do that in your own interest anyway, to get over him. Otherwise the agony goes on and on.
On the other hand, when doing activities jointly, that's when the fun starts, isn't it. Of course doing A alone is great, but maybe doing B together could be just so much more fun?

Not sure if I'm making sense here. Probably not. But again, I'm not exactly in a great position to give advice anyway, given my very own mess. I'll post an update later.

Take care,
Nick

Don't know who it was Nick, but they were right!

I really struggle with some of this "giving things up" and that makes me think I'm really not committed enough.

Funnily enough, not to see the friends, as YR said, if they are real friends they will understand and I think they both would. But the cycling is something else. Let me explain.

In November 2000, I completed my first charity cycle ride in Mexico. When I signed up earlier that year, I asked H if he would consider it too, and he said "No" absolutely outright!! Shortly after that, he got the job in Germany. I went to Devon on 2 occassions for training and met some people who have become good friends to me. A lot of these people live and are based in London, and we socialise and cycle together on weekends. After the first cylce ride, I signed up this year for February 2002 to Costa Rica.

I continued to train, fund raise and socialise with the people I had met, and there were 6 of us who went to Costa Rica who were good friends, cycling and socialising together in London on a regular basis.

I met OM once at the induction for Costa Rica in London last November, and he is good friends with someone who I met in Mexico, so in a way, that's why we had a link, because of our mutual friend (that's a point, why didn't he even get him to ring me to tell H to back off before going to the Police!!)

It was in Costa Rica that the relationship with OM developed, and became a PA about a month after we returned. During the A, OM and I did not meet to cycle together, and he did not meet with the London gang of 6 (all of whom I still see regularly). The only time he did was at a general reunion for the Charity and at my birthday do where there were loads of other people too. OM does not communicate with any of them, and never became invovled with them as they were, and always had been, my friends.

OK, I know this is a bit of a long story, and maybe I am trying to justify why I want to continue, but OM has nothing to do with this part of my life per se. When I cycle, I do not think fondly of him - when I think of my trip to Costa Rica - that's different. But I have not signed up for another trip, even though my friends have all signed for a trip next February to Laos and are trying to persuade me to go. If I went away on a trip, had booked for Laos, or if I had cycled here with OM and invovled him with these particular friends, I would fully understand, but they are two separate things.

So it would in essence mean giving up about 8 friends (6 of whom know nothing about this althought they may suspect), and an activity that I truly enjoy. Not just an activity but a sport that has become something which I really love to do, keeps me fit and challenged, and motivates me. I have little to motivate myself as it is at the moment......

I thought the whole idea behind POJA was that it should be wholehearted agreement on both sides. If H was saying, well I'll do X and Y with you, maybe I would feel more inclined, but he isn't. Even though we had been playing a little bit of tennis, I can see he is already going off that. He is not like me. I guess Recreational Companionship is a big EN for me, and it has to be relatively physically demanding. When I cycle on Sundays, we either do a good 40/50 miles or 25/30 miles off-road.

So, it would be giving up friends, cycling friends, and a way of life that has become integral to who I am (a person who NEEDS demanding physical acitivity, and although I do pound the treadmill, it's not the same!)...

Am I just being selfish? Probably....

Lisa

Ooops - double post
Lisa

<small>[ September 17, 2002, 10:43 AM: Message edited by: Lisa in London ]</small>

slightly off-topic, but just to clear things up: it was Hobbes, the English philosopher from the 17th century:

quote,

'... and which is worst of all, continual fear, and danger of violent death; and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short' (Leviathan, i. xiii. 9). This is one of Hobbes's most memorable phrases and comes at the end of his description of what life is like in the state of nature when 'men live without a common power to keep them all in awe'. This powerful description of life in the state of nature, like everything Hobbes writes on moral and political matters, has as its goal the attempt to persuade people to obey the law and thereby to avoid civil war. For civil war leads to the state of nature with all of the horrors mentioned in the above quote.

slightly off-topic, but just to clear things up: it was Hobbes, the English philosopher from the 17th century:

quote,

'... and which is worst of all, continual fear, and danger of violent death; and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short' (Leviathan, i. xiii. 9). This is one of Hobbes's most memorable phrases and comes at the end of his description of what life is like in the state of nature when 'men live without a common power to keep them all in awe'. This powerful description of life in the state of nature, like everything Hobbes writes on moral and political matters, has as its goal the attempt to persuade people to obey the law and thereby to avoid civil war. For civil war leads to the state of nature with all of the horrors mentioned in the above quote.