Love is sharing, not gimme nor is it a gimmick.

Infatuation is a gimme and sometimes a gimmick.

JMHO,
L.

SC,

Very interesting stuff!

As was said earlier in this thread, there is nothing complex about Ulove.

We could just as easily be changing the name from Ulove to "YTPY" love...Your The Perfect You.

It is simply when we can look at our S and truthfully say "You are the perfect you, just as you are. I care about YOUR happiness. And I am responsible for my own happiness. ".

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 1. What do you want from me?
2. What do I have to do so you'll keep loving me?
3. I wonder how long this will last?
4. So what? Lots of people have told me that, and I didn't end up happy because of it.
5. When are you going to hurt me like everyone else who's loved me?
6. I suppose now I'll have to tell you that I love you, or you'll be hurt and angry. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">These are very thought provoking questions and moving things to a deeper level. Yes, these are probably exactly the type of questions our subconscious "inner child" asks.

When I go back and try to merge this with the only example I've been exposed to regarding inner child stuff, Kat, what I heard her saying was her H's inner child was "looking for love" even though she was at home with love for him.

So why didn't he feel loved by her? Because he had put up a facade for the world to see, including Kat. He believed that if Kat knew all his 'secrets', she wouldn't love him anymore and he said as much in counselling. In fact he said he believed noone could love him, not even God because he was 'in his own eyes' so bad.

It was only through Kat offering him Ulove ("If you love something set it free.......but I WILL still love you.) that he had the courage to 'tell his truths'. Before that, he couldn't risk telling her for fear he would lose her. Once he let his 'flawed, real self' be seen, HE could first truly feel Kat's love.

Hmmmmm....this is really food for thought for me.

Thanks so much for posting that SC.
E_C

<small>[ September 04, 2002, 07:55 AM: Message edited by: Extremely_confused ]</small>

SC:

Gotta run 2 work, but did you post the author of that quote of yours? (maybe you did, but ol' 2long was 2 dense 2 notice?)

Hey 2long,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sure, it's a necessary stopgap while dealing with the A, but I don't intend to be "wrong" forever. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just had to tell you that I laughed for a long time after I read this. You are so enjoyable. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

E_C

2L;
That excerpt I posted is by Dr. Greg Baer, author of <strong>"The Truth About
Relationships"</strong>.

I'm not sure this works, or is true, or CAN be implmented, but by golly, I'm
going to explore anything that can get me my W and M back, so I'm doing it.

Here's the web site for Dr. Baer. Check it out. In particular, the "Books"
section which has sample chapters, the "Journal" section which has Q&A, and
there's also some "real-audio" files which are supposed to be good. (I'm on
dial-up at the hotel and it hasn't worked well for me at these slow speeds...)

Greg Baer.com

Check it out and let me know what you think!

I had an appointment with Steve today, and here's the gist of what Steve said:

I asked him why if we're trying to detach, to create a separate life for us, prepare for the end of our M thru Plan A, Plan B, etc. we still have that powerful feeling that drives us to want to get our S and our M back?

He says it's more like "the unconditional desire to be happy" than unconditional love. That we all want to be in love with our children's mother, that this is still the ideal scenario.
He feels it's not as much "love" as it is comfort, familiarity, and fear of change.

I asked him about what to do in terms of communicating with my W, letting her know some of what I have found out, helping her reach some conclusions for herself, like emphasizing that I now understand the role I played in her "privacy/secrecy" thing, perhaps introducing some of the new concepts I've learned, the difference between ULove and CLove, etc. He says that "the stage has been set", that I need to stay focused on why I'm in Plan B, that I can't afford to break that. That she has to find "her own way", even if it means crash and burn.

So...no bending the rules. Said any interaction with my W should be "cordial and distant"...

He has the idea that my W was doing something very important for the OM, that he has that feeling but he doesn't know what it may be; perhaps taking things to the prison for him, or doing something for him outside the prison, but something critical that she felt she could not stop doing for him. That he does not believe they have ended the R, that even if they can't visit, they are still in touch, and quite a bit. That that is why she says "the R is over, and I can demonstrate it, but I can't do it today"

Maybe he's right. I have said that I DO think it's over, but don't see why if it's over she could not/would not demonstrate it. And our theory has been that there's something very awful which she thinks our R can't handle. Steve thinks differently, I guess.

SC:

My apologies

<small>[ September 04, 2002, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

sc

<small>[ September 04, 2002, 05:32 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

<small>[ September 04, 2002, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

Deleting post in deference to space's request.

<small>[ September 04, 2002, 05:37 PM: Message edited by: committedandlovingit ]</small>

sc

<small>[ September 04, 2002, 05:33 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

Thanks everyone. I sincerely appreciate the support.

<small>[ September 05, 2002, 10:58 AM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

Article by Greg Baer, author of "The Truth About Relationships"

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> <strong>What Are You Prepared To Do?</strong>

I've closely observed and talked with thousands of people. Almost everyone is desperately looking for a lasting happiness they don't have. They've tried to find it in money, power, praise, approval, and sex, but they never succeed.

There's only one thing in this world that leads to genuine happiness -- being unconditionally loved. When I talk with unhappy people, I often suggest that they can find love and happiness by simply telling the truth about themselves and experiencing the feeling of being accepted for who they really are -- Real Love. Once anyone feels enough of that acceptance, the entire world changes for them.

But despite the simplicity of finding Real Love, only a tiny number of the people I talk to are willing to do what it takes to do it. People want happiness without telling the truth. They want their problems to go away without doing what it takes to change themselves. They look for the world to magically make them happy. None of those things can ever happen.

Years ago, I watched a movie about the conflict between the FBI, led by Elliott Ness, and the crime world of Al Capone in Chicago. Ness didn't want to get his hands dirty, hoping that if he stood on a soapbox and preached against crime, Mr. Capone would see the light and turn himself in. He found it ineffective and frustrating to fight crime in this "gentlemanly" way. An old Chicago cop had advised Ness that it would take extraordinary measures to win the war, but still Ness resisted. Finally, Ness (played by Kevin Costner) learned that Capone had put out an order to have the agent's wife and child killed, and he went to the cop (played by Sean Connery).

Ness: "I want to get Capone."

Cop: "Do you really want to get him? Because if you do, the real question is what are you prepared to do about it?"

Ness: "I'll do anything."

Cop: "Then let's get to work."

I've listened to countless people tell me what they want, most of which can be distilled into a few wishes: "I want people to like me." "I want a better marriage." "I want to be a better parent." "I want to be happier."

It really doesn't matter what we want if we don't do what it takes to get it. What matters is what we're prepared to do. If I say I want to be an Olympic athlete and then sit on the couch watching television all day, it's clear I don't really want to be an athlete, isn't it? If I'm not prepared to train extensively, I don't really want what I say with my words. I think that most of the time, we badly deceive ourselves. We say we want to be happy, but we're not willing to do what it takes to get there. What we really want is for everyone else to make sacrifices, everyone else to change, and the world to revolve around us. It's unbelievably selfish and quite impossible.

The universe operates on laws that are dependable and unchanging. If we tell the truth about our mistakes, take responsibility for our actions, and do what's right, we will be happy -- period. It works every single time. But we want the laws of the universe to change for our convenience. We want to sit back and complain about circumstances and people, hoping that someone will finally understand that the world has an obligation to rescue us and give us what we want. Our selfishness and laziness are staggering.

I recently received a phone call from a woman who was living in hell. Her husband didn't love her or want to spend time with her. Her children were spoiled and rebellious. People didn't like to be around her. She was lonely and miserable, and she had a complaint about every person she knew. She said she could no longer live like that, preferring to be dead. I know that feeling well. I suggested there was a way out, that she could tell the truth about her mistakes, not everyone else's, and experience the unconditional acceptance that is available to people who do that.

We talked for a few minutes, and her anguish seemed to lessen considerably as she felt the unconditional acceptance she was offered. I said that because she had felt unloved for so long, it would probably take many loving experiences before she felt a real change in her life.

<strong>Within a day, she sent me an e-mail saying she just couldn't see how telling the truth would make any difference, so she'd keep trying to handle things on her own. How sad. With all the years of our lives and with thousands of experiences, we've demonstrated that what we're doing doesn't lead to Real Love and happiness. But despite our loneliness and pain, we refuse to exercise the slightest grain of faith to do something different. We're too afraid of anything that's unfamiliar to us. Instead, we keep doing the same old things that have never worked for us in the past. We may try something different for a moment, as the woman above did when she made one phone call, but then we dive right back into the same old toilet. We stay miserable and wonder why. It's no mystery.</strong>

Making one attempt at telling the truth and feeling loved is far from enough. If you were dying of thirst in the desert, would you be satisfied with a single teaspoon of water? Would that be sufficient to treat your condition? Of course not. You'd have to keep looking for water until you found enough to return you to health. It's the same way with Real Love. Telling the truth and finding a teaspoon of love is good, but it's not enough. We're still dying of thirst, and we must do whatever is necessary to get enough love to bring us lasting happiness.

We say we want to be happy. But that expressed desire is meaningless unless we're prepared to do something about it -- until we're willing to consistently do something truly different, even if it frightens us. And we have to keep doing it until real change is possible. Do you want to be happier? Do you want to feel more loved? Do you want a better marriage and to be a better parent? Then what are you prepared to do? If you're prepared to make only a half-hearted effort, your claims that you desire happiness mean nothing.

Ironically, finding Real Love is far easier than the lying, manipulating, worrying, anger, etc. we use to get the Imitation Love of praise, power, pleasure, and safety. How tragic that we work so hard to earn what never makes us truly happy, while real joy is easy to find and infinitely available. It's like we pay our entire fortune to eat garbage, while a banquet of gourmet food is in the next room.

What are you prepared to do? If you consistently tell the truth about yourself and wait for the unconditional acceptance that will come, you'll have a lifetime of love, growth, and happiness.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sounds reasonable and plausible, doesn't it? Especially when we look at it from the perspective of infidelity and the reasons we see and hear most often for this tragedy.

For more articles by Greg Baer, goe to the Journal section of his website at:

Greg Baer.com

<small>[ September 04, 2002, 10:08 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

Spacecase,
Where are you?
Did you go away somewhere?
How are you doing? I hope you are doing better than me and that you are sticking to plan B! Not that I should give you advice on that considering what I have been posting.
I hope you are well. I printed the chapters of The truth about realtionships and will read them tonight.
I miss your posts, they always make me think and challenge me.

Je pense à toi.

Moi aussi, ma cherie

Oh, I've been around, just don't have much to post, really. Doing Plan B, not as well or as solid as I'd like (or Steve would like!), but honestly having some difficulty reconciling between Plan B and my feelings for her, had a couple of encounters similar to yours, where I was loving and showed her I care for her. Also done s few things for her that I probably should have stopped doing (help w/her business & website) but I felt she'd take it as too much of an LB since she knows and I know she can't do some of this. Overall, I'll be in Plan B for a month tomorrow, and I've not spoken on the phone with her, only seen her maybe 4 times, and emailed 5-6 times. Not a very good record, huh?

But I feel OK about it, I feel I've shown her a different SC, a more caring SC. And I've been pondering and learning about ULove, so I'm having some serious conflicts in my mind about all this.

PS; you'll forgive my French, as I'm trying hard to remember it from many, many years ago!

<small>[ September 06, 2002, 08:23 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He says it's more like "the unconditional desire to be happy" than unconditional love. That we all want to be in love with our children's mother, that this is still the ideal scenario.
He feels it's not as much "love" as it is comfort, familiarity, and fear of change.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We have the Harley's theory of conditional love. We have Spacecase's (and others) evidence that conflicts with the theory. At this point one can either question the validity of the theory, or question the evidence. Someone with a vested interest in proving the validity of the theory would do the latter.

If I say my love for my spouse is unconditional, how can someone else say that I am incorrect? What right does anyone else have to judge whether or not what I feel for my spouse is love?

In my case, my H has been gone for 3 years. It is long past the time where comfort, familiarity, or fear of change is relevant. Change has already happened; comfort and familiarity are things of the distant past. Yet I love my H as much as ever. It is at the very least presumptuous for someone to tell me that I do not.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Nellie1:
<strong>
If I say my love for my spouse is unconditional, how can someone else say that I am incorrect? What right does anyone else have to judge whether or not what I feel for my spouse is love?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree 100%.

This quote from Nellie really IS the bottom line when it comes to ULove.

Nellie1

I think we've "reconciled" the "apparent" conflict between Harley's assertion that "love is 100% conditional" and the feeling many of us have about Unconditional love, and it goes something like this. (BTW, E_C said it best, but I can't find the post where she did that!)

The Harleys, rightly for their objectives and in support of the key elements for recovery, (Fulfilling ENs and avoiding LBs), focus directly only on "Eros" love; that love which is related to passion; romantic love, which IS conditional. Unconditional love, on the other hand, is "divine, godly" (Agape) love; that love which is freely given regardless of fault or hurt, and which seeks nothing in return.

Now, clearly, a Marriage needs both of these (Eros and Agape) to thrive and satisfy. (There could be elements of Philos, or Brotherly love in a marriage as well, but basically it NEEDS Eros and Agape only). It must be added that receiving ULove can and does sometimes promote Eros (Conditional) Love, but it does not replace it. Eros still requires needs to be met.

So, the Harleys concentrate primarily on that love which IS conditional; Eros/Romantic/Conditional love by teaching us how to fulfill Emotional Needs and avoid Love Busters. BUT, they ALSO teach us about Agape/Godly/Unconditional love by emphasizing Acceptance and Forgiveness, both of which are elements of Unconditional love. Acceptance that we cannot change our spouse, that we must take them as they are, forgiveness for the unforgivable; infidelity, and so on. Both of which, by the way, we have already begun to do in Plan A.

In this context, Unconditional Love and Conditional Love are reconciled in the Harley method, and the conflict disappears. (Or at least is less flagrant).

Why does Steve tell me that what I feel is more like "the unconditional desire to be happy than unconditional love"? Because in order for me to execute a good Plan B, I must concentrate on being consistent, and cut off contact with my W in order for me to "heal and prepare for the end of the R" and for my W to have a glimpse of what being divorced would be like, so that should the A end, she will then understand what needs to be done to attempt Recovery (which has been explained in the Plan B letter). In the meantime, as I enter and "live" Plan B, I have to begin to forgive and to accept, the very elements of Unconditional love which we were "apparently" missing. I have to forgive my W, otherwise I'd be bitter forever, and I have to forgive myself, otherwise I could not hope to live with myself. And I have to accept that the future of my M is no longer in my hands, that I cannot change my W, and that MY life must go on, etc.

So, in the Harley process, as we only discuss Conditional Love in order to keep things clear, we are, at the same time, "living" Unconditional Love. If we succeed, then we are prepared to give this Unconditional Love to our spouse when and if they decide to attempt Recovery, since we have already learned to do this in Plan A & B.

<small>[ September 07, 2002, 09:28 AM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

Off the subject but interesting –

Yesterday I was browsing the “Psychology” section at the bookstore and I ran across and interesting book: ”The Couples Psychotherapy Treatment Planner”. It’s a guidebook for therapists that outlines all the processes and steps to follow for any given treatment program (weird! never thought something like this existed!) Anyway, I went, obviously, to the section for “Infidelity” and there are several pages of steps for the therapist to follow. In the steps, the “planner” recommends books for the therapist and the couple to read during treatment. The book description reads, in part, “…this new planner provides an array of pre-written treatment plan components for couples and marital problems. It features pre-written treatment plan components (behavioral definitions, long-term goals, short-term objectives, therapeutic interventions, and DSM-IV diagnoses) for relational and marital problems, including anger management, conflict resolution, financial disagreements, infidelity, life transitions, communication difficulties, and more.” The interesting part for me was the choice of books the “planner” recommends, and it went like this (at different stages of the treatment, of course):
The Couples Psychotherapy Treatment Planner - Wiley

The Couples Psychotherapy Treatment Planner - Amazon

”Patterns of Infidelity and Their Treatment” – by Emily Brown (The planner said this book should be used to determine the “type” of affair, from the “5 degrees” of affairs, which, in turn, call for different approaches.) The description of the book reads: “The new edition of this highly-regarded book includes comprehensive discussion of the nature of an affair and the five types of affairs and their underlying dynamics. The author addresses issues regarding revealing the affair, management of the consequences, rebuilding, and treating an unmarried third party, as well as the host of complex issues regarding children and custody arrangements. New material for the second edition includes cyber-sex and the effects of new technology on fidelity…”
This is a very interesting book, by the way. It’s a “textbook” for therapists on how to treat cases of infidelity; the approaches to use, methods, etc. I had bought this book very early on after DDay, when I started to read about the issues Harley and others (Michelle Weiner-Davis, for one) have with “traditional therapy” as it relates to treating infidelity. But I had really never spent a lot of time with it until last night, when I started reading a few sections. Very, very interesting, but that is perhaps the subject of another post. Truth be told, it is very consistent with Harley principles; hopefully more and more therapists will read it!
Patterns of Infidelity and Their Treatment - Amazon

Another recommendation was "After the Affair: Healing the Pain and Rebuilding Trust When a Partner Has Been Unfaithful"
by Janis Abrahms, Phd An affair classic that practically needs no introduction.
The Book Description reads: For the 70 percent of couples who have been affected by extramarital affairs, this is the only book to offer proven strategies for surviving the crisis and rebuilding the relationship -- written by a nationally known therapist considered an expert on infidelity. When I was 15, I was raped. That was nothing compared to your affair. The rapist was a stranger; you, I thought, were my best friend. There is nothing quite like the pain and shock caused when a partner has been unfaithful. The hurt partner often experiences a profound loss of self-respect and falls into a depression that can last for years. For the relationship, infidelity is often a death blow. After the Affair is the first book to help readers survive this crisis. Written by a clinical psychologist who has been treating distressed couples for 22 years, it guides both hurt and unfaithful partners through the three stages of healing: Normalizing feelings, deciding whether to recommit and revitalizing the relationship. It provides proven, practical advice to help the couple change their behavior toward each other, cultivate trust and forgiveness and build a healthier, more conscious intimate partnership.
After the Affair- Janis Abrahms Spring Phd- Amazon

The next book the “planner” recommended was ”The Intimate Enemy: How to Fight Fair in Love and Marriage” - by Bach/Wyden
Which I’d never heard of, but deals with conflict in the relationship and how to use it for positive results. A reader review reads: “I read this book many years ago and it totally changed my perspective about the NEED for conflict in a relationship. It pointed out constructive ways to express one's feelings and opinions without becoming destructive and hurtful in the process. The author points out that positive conflict-resolution techniques are essential if relationships are to last in the long term. The concepts not only changed the way I deal with family and friends, but also gave me some excellent techniques for dealing with students, parents and colleagues in my teaching career.”
The Intimate Enemy: How to Fight Fair in Love and Marriage - Amazon

Next came ”Getting the Love You Want” - by Harville Hendrix which is a book that we have discussed here at MB, in particular in KAT’s Inner-Child thread.. In it, Hendrix describes his “Imago Therapy” which is an approach that covers "The Unconscious Marriage," which details a marriage in which the remaining desires and behavior of childhood interfere with the current relationship; "The Conscious Marriage," which shows a marriage that fulfils those childhood needs in a positive manner; and a "course in relationship therapy, " which gives detailed exercises for you and your partner to follow in order to learn how to "replace confrontation and criticism ... with a healing process of mutual growth and support."
Getting the Love You Want - Amazon

Then came “Passionate Marriage: Love, Sex, and Intimacy in Emotionally Committed Relationships” - by David Schnarch” which is also a book we’ve discussed extensively, in particular by Pepperband. (“Dear Pep”, as I prefer to call her). Schnarch says that a man is more likely to let a relationship suffer in order to hold on to his sense of self, while a woman is more apt to let her identity suffer to help strengthen it. Schnarch gives explicit tips on how to alter this pattern, an essential step he calls "differentiation." He also explains why compromise isn't always the best route to take when conflicts arise. Schnarch teaches how to find inner strength and resilience that can be used to reaffirm a relationship and reignite sex.
Passionate Marriage: Love, Sex, and Intimacy in Emotionally Committed Relationships - Amazon

And lastly, I guess for those couples that don’t make it, ”How to Survive the Loss of a Love” -
by Peter McWilliams, Harold H. Bloomfield, Melba Colgrove which is perhaps best described in this reader review: “Anyone who has had a loss in his or her life can benefit from reading this book. It is an easy and quick read and takes you through step-by-step what to expect in the recovery process. The first time I read it, I cried as I read every page. Each successive time I read it, I cried at different parts of the book, i.e. the healing process. It helped me realize that I was actually recovering from my loss, which is a great help when you are in such pain you don't think you'll ever feel normal again.
Especially when everyone around you is trying to keep you from crying and encouraging you to forget your loss, this book gave me an outlet for my grief. It gave me permission to cry when I needed to cry, kept me from wallowing in grief as I continued to live, and helped me to accept my loss and start over.”
How to Survive the Loss of a Love - Amazon

So, why this long post about books? Because it was interesting to me, and a validation of the quality and value of the forum’s recommendations and discussions that all the books the “planner” recommends for treatment are books we have discussed and recommended here, and if not the particular book, at least the subject of the book (in the case of “The Intimate Enemy”). Of course, the one about giving up and getting over it…well, around here we don’t give up so easily, so we haven’t gone there! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Sorry for the “bibliographical” post, but most of those who know me, know that this is a “thing” of mine! Next thing you know, I'll be putting footnotes in my posts...LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<small>[ September 14, 2002, 01:04 AM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

SC,

You always make me smile. You're just a lean, mean reading machine. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

No wonder you catch onto things so quickly.

Maybe we'll have to start calling you "SpaceArian the Librarian".

Naw....that won't work....you're just too <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> .

E_C