(((REPLACED)))

I was humbled once I realized my H could only continue to play the lost little boy if I continued played the parent to his child.

THEN ... I had to let go of being the controling parent ... easier said than done I had become comfortable controling and correcting <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> .... My H was an alcoholic .... the really funny, charming, fun-loving , artsy & talented kind of alcoholic .... then the flip side .... the really irresponsible, immature, self-loathing kind of alcoholic.

Women who marry little boys are usually women who like to take charge .... otherwise, we would have selected a take charge kind of man.

THIS was my moment of truth .... and I let go. (well, truthfully, it was a gradual letting go ... as changing one's self normally is) NOW, when my take *charge woman* raises her head ... my H will challenge her ! This was like being in a whole new marriage. Adjusting to this was harder than you might think. I am a nurse who works independently ... and I make major decisions every day ... and suddenly, I was in a partnership making decisions.

My H's task was (as he now puts it) ... "I found my voice" .... speaking up and challenging me (not the same as LBing ... but at first it felt like LBing because I was not used to dealing with his *MAN* voice.

Now ... after years of practice .... I do not emasculate his power .... I find it to be a real ~turn on~ <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

One woman's thoughts~~~~

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

PS....

A mid-50's man-boy will look like a *MAN* to a mid-20's woman .... and that is very likely the center of the attraction ... "She makes me feel like a MAN!" The 50-year-old man is not in a childish position with a 20-year-old woman.

Can he be a *MAN* with his 50-year-old wife???

Will the wife let him???

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ September 08, 2002, 11:07 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Pepper,

I am the great enabler, take care of everybody, I have made it very easy for H to stay a boy in a lot of ways. In actuality HE had the greater voice and I just went along with what he wanted. In other words I spoiled him like a child.

Now that I have found MY voice, it doesnt set well with him. Change will be slow.

It is funny, I am a nurse too, havent worked as one for years, have been in business with H and helping care for sick family members.

I've told H for awhile now, I need a partner to stand by ME, instead of me struggling alone and being expected to also stand by HIM. Just need some logical balance and common sense. Life is not just about what HE WANTS, it is also about what WE BOTH NEED.

I think the way H will grow up is when I start consistently ASKING for what I need instead of suffering like a martyr.

I've really messed up, havent I? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Replaced

<small>[ September 08, 2002, 03:39 PM: Message edited by: Replaced ]</small>

"I've really messed up, haven't I?"

Listen, we're all doing the best we can at any given moment. You haven't messed up any more than the next person you meet or speak to.

Be kind to yourself.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Thankyou Pepper, I needed that! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Replaced <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Pepper,

What insight you have just given me about the 20 yr old falling in love with the 50 yr old "man".

Replaced---I have been soooooo codependent and yes, my H and I have admitted that our relationship has been like parent and child so I have screwed up too. But I wholeheartedly admitted it to my H and apologized and was willing to work through and change. He admits that he does not want to change and does not want to answer to anyone anymore. He says, He can be a great friend but he is not husband material. My H is also an alcoholic (Pepper, is your H still actively drinking?) My H laments about what he has done but will do nothing to change where we are at and still admits he can't turn off his feelings for OW. I cannot do this anymore so he may have to grow up quick or find another mother.

TW

P.S. H still tries to pull me into mother mode but I have quit being his mother and I tell him he has to make his own decisions and figure out his own feelings. He asked me for the thousandth time....what can I do to turn things around. I said, "You have to look inside "H" and ask "H" what do I need to make my life better and healthier?"

Mr. Pepper has been " working the program" (AA) for 6 1/2 years. We would have been divorced otherwise. Just stopping drinking was not enough ... he had to change his thinking ... therefore AA meetings, and AA leadership.

He's doing great. He loves life as a sober *MAN*. he tells me everyday.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

TW,

Has your H had any therapy, IC, MC? What about the possibility of depressive disorder, Meds?

My H is not alcoholic but is ADD, and has depression and is on one med. Counseling needed but has not happened as yet. Just a thought. Everyone is different. Many ways to help resolve these situations.

Replaced

Replaced, Counseling was one of the boundaries I sent when he decided to come back (without my total agreement). I spent a couple of months waiting for him to make a decision about counseling and he came to the conclusion that he WILL not talk to a stranger about his problems. He also talked with a sober alcoholic friend who said he would go to AA with him but H said he is not able to do that at this time. He will do nothing to change anything and still deals with all problems by self medicating and escaping. He also admits that he feels caught in the middle cause he can't turn off feelings for OW. We had a struggling M for years cause the drinking caused a huge wall between us and the A has tipped the scales for me. I have spent the last 1 1/2 willing to work on us but he refuses all types of rebuilding. He admitted that he does not think he should be M so I can do nothing else.
So my only recourse is to make a new life of my own at this point and I must say I feel I will be able to do that now.
TW

Tossedwave,
I admire your strength, and your ability to make that decision to make a new life for yourself. It sounds as if you have done all you can do. Best wishes for your new future.

Relaced

Being one of the "fossils" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> , I had to jump in. It's hard being older, having a 30+ year marriage, and being HERE. My H and I are both 52 and have had, in many ways a good marriage, but in others, one that where there was not honesty or openness or good communication. D-day #1 was almost 20 years ago and, although life was never the same, I felt that we had made a reasonable recovery. But in May of this year I discovered that the EA had continued (in the form of yearly correspondence) until last year.

So almost 20 years later, there we were writing a "no contact" letter to the OW who should have been out of our lives years ago. I have felt so angry that we have to deal with all this again. My trust was shattered again and the reality that he lied to me for so many years has been so hard to swallow.

Most of the time, I feel that we are making a good recovery...but it is a real roller coaster and, in my darkest moments, I question why I am still here...still trying (and still crying) after all these years. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I don't think that either of us has considered anything else but staying together. My H has really been trying to be honest and open and demonstrate that I can trust him again. He seems so committed to our relationship. But the changes we are trying to make are so hard, not just for him, but for me too. I am determined that we won't slip back into our old ways of doing things (lots of conflict avoidence) and hope that we can continue to navigate our way though this.

We haven't been to MC or IC because he is not a big believer in counseling, but we have agreed that if we feel stuck at year's end, that we will reconsider.

After everything, I still love this guy so much. I love being with him, I love being parents and grandparents together, I love sleeping next to him every night. Am I just a fool, or what????

DarkSide~~

I think it's a big mistake not to go to MC. Does he refuse ... or are you not insisting? (I think this is an example of conflict avoidence in and of it's self)

Is the OW married? Does her spouse know about this long term A? Do you know her personally?

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Dear Dark----how I hurt with you. I understand totally how you feel. I love my H and love to be with him but unlike your H, mine is not trying just lamenting and remorseful and distance. He is totally overwhelmed and frozen in where he is at.

I can understand why you are struggling so....you both are probably still using the same communicating patterns as before and without a third party helping you out of the old stuff, you may struggle forever. Hope you both come to see the need to get help. If you are both open, it will work wonders. When someone else sees things from a different perspective, the real issues can get addressed. Will pray for the help you need when the timing is right.

TW

tossedwave and Dark,

Most of us on this thread have walked the earth for more than half a century. Many of us have been married to the same person more than half our lives! An amazing feat in itself!

I think of the saying "you cant teach an old dog new tricks" and it scares me. Recently I told a friend of mine a little bit about our marital problems, the dynamics of our relationship, how I "go along with" what H wants to do when I KNOW I should say no. How now I am voicing my opinions more, putting my foot down when necessary, wanting to talk about issues.

The friend said to me, "you have been doing this for over 30 years and you want to change it NOW?!!!

That is when the harsh reality hit. The habits are SOOOO deeply engrained, the behavior patterns so firmly in place. The dynamic so familiar. I have made some major changes in myself. H and I have been apart for 7 months straight, and I have no way of knowing what H is doing in the way of personal change. That will remain a mystery until he comes home. I am just now realizing what a monumental task all of this "rebuilding" really is. It takes 2 very commited people for there to be significant improvement. I just feel discouraged about it all.

This is mostly of vent of honest feelings at the moment. I dont plan on staying in the hopeless and discouraged mode for long. Even if we end up divorced, life will go on. Hope my thoughts dont drag anyone else down tonite.

Replaced

Replaced, we all have feelings we don't like but they are just feelings. I learned in alanon that a feeling is not a fault or shortcoming but it is what we do with our feelings that can be a huge fault......being disrespectful to ourselves or another.....having an affair....killing someone out of hate. We all need to be honest and open with ourselves, God and hopefully a trusted friend and face the feelings we have. I think not facing them leads to wrongdoing.

My saying lately is "you can't beat a dead horse". You are totally right that it takes 2 committed people to rebuild. I have tried for 33 years to "fix" our M and I always feared that if I gave up, our M would end.....and it is. My H is unwilling to work on things but he does not want it to end so I get caught up in the "it ain't that bad" syndrome and find myself feeling guilty that I want more than an occassional night watching TV with my H. We do nothing together and he has always insisted on a separate life. This is so painful to me that I finally had to start taking antidepressants since he came back. Sad thing is that he is the one person I want to spend all my time with so am I crazy??? NO--- but I need to look at how unhealthy things are and get a life for myself...... I am tired of longing for something I will never have and expecting things I may never see. My planning to leave has been the most painful thing I have ever done but the alternative is more painful. I am almost there and I know that there is life after divorce.

There's a vent for ya. I pray that you will know what is best and see the reality of your marital situation in due time.

TW

<small>[ February 06, 2005, 04:23 PM: Message edited by: hanora ]</small>

Some familiar names here! Yes, I am in the age group. Oh, I do so identify with so many of the feelings expressed here; I tried for four years to "save" our marriage. To this day I am still stunned when it comes to understanding what hit us. I truly believed we were happy together; then OW came along; 22 years younger! Smart, fun to be with - yes, probably made him "feel like a man"; and he probably forgot to tell her about the bad back; ulcers, haemorrhoids etc. etc. We separated three times. I snatched at glimmers of hope; hung on to affection; treasured the (many) good times etc; we contiued to have what, on the surface, was a good and often v.pleasant friendship.

I grew - and "took care" of the relationship; he was "unwilling to do anything" - his most recent statement on this was "what is broken cannot be mended" - more likely he does not want to mend it. I have no doubt he cares for me - may even love me in his own "emotionally damaged" way. But just recently after I discovered OW was still lurking somewhere in the bgrd and he refused to end all contact (has promised to do so so many times I probably would not have believed him anyway!).

It sure has taken some time but one night when I was driving home from work - I thought he had gone interstate - I saw the lights on - realised he was at home - my stomach crunched; I turned around and went to a coffee shop - suddenly it was so clear - he would continue this now well established pattern of behaviour if I continued to "nurture" it - hell, what did he have to lose; OW on the side and a warm and comfortable home life - and realisation that I was being "cocntrolled" by his depression (which he acknowledges but refuses to do anything about). As it happens he had stayed home to accompany me to the doctor the next day (I have breast cancer). I can see my "co-dependence" so clearly now - once, I would have been thrilled by this thoughtlessnes. Instead - I soon after asked for some "time out" - he was devastated - and the following week - following a long discussion in which he confirmed that he is "paralysed" where he is - I asked him to leave. It was excruciatingly painful. We both cried - and hugged each other - and said how sad it was - he even asked to stay that night.

But this is what I want to share with you - I am sad; a bit lost - but feel as though a huge burden has lifted from my shoulders. I feel really well; I am positive; I am planning a holiday. I am sleeping well - and I dont spend all day every day (on top of a full time job) - figuring what i can do next - mine must have been the longest Plan A in history - so, it may well be all over - I put a divorce & settlement plan to him. And went to Plan B. And it is the best thing I ever did! I hope it will force him to review and reflect on him/me/OW/us - and whatever the outcome I just know I am going to be OK.

Hugs all round

R

The Grass is not always greener. Affairs can happen at any time. if you have a long term marriage do what ever it take to preserve it.

Rosebrook, I am amazed at how your story sounds like mine. I have tried endlessly (33 yrs) to "save" our M and when the A happened, I went into full-gear-saving mode all the while WS did nothing but waffle and cry, waffle and cry, get depressed, and waffle. I feel exactly the way you feel cause I made the hardest decision of my life......to end the triangle. Someone had to make a decision and I could see that OW and WS were never gonna change anything. I am sad, too and still cry but I do feel such a burden lifted from me. I worked endlessly on myself cause I though changing me was the key to saving us but I cannot change anything else now without WS participation. I am sad but excited about my new life as I look for an apartment. Each time I make a move in the direction of separation, I feel strengthened and lighthearted. When I struggle day after day expecting something from WS, I get heavy hearted and depressed.

WS cannot and will not do anything. He has admitted to not being willing to change anything. He also feels that the damage is too great and unfixable.

How you did that for 4 years is beyond me. You must be exhausted.

The greatest thing-----I have not read one self-help book in a month and a half. Just enjoying myself reading fiction and doing things I enjoy. What a life!!!!!!

TW