J.R.:

I'm still utterly amazed!!! For her 2 have "seemed" 2 have understood what was happening in your mind all this time, then 2 hop in2 the sack with a fellow train passenger? Her self-esteem must be down near the core-mantle boundary. How utterly sad.

Hm... Yeah, talk 2 the lawyer, get the ball rolling. Hey, can you move back home and let a realtor handle selling the house for you?

My thoughts are with you, man.

This is really tragic J.R.. I have to agree with everyone else on this...time to call a lawyer and get out of her way before she hits rock bottom (and she will) and takes you with her.

No one ever thinks it can happen to them. Reality is, it happens to the best and worst of us. That's the scary thing about infidelity, it seems to just happen out of the blue; one can never be prepared!

I've said this to you before and will again. You are a good person, you tried your best to make your M work. No one can say you didn't give it your all. Sometimes there is reconciliation, sometimes there isn't. I'm feeling badly for you but, I also know you'll be ok on your own. You've learned way too much from this not to be ok.

Thanks again!

Legal ball... yes, I was assigned that task by Steve a couple of sessions ago. I was going to first inquire about the legalities of residence... what it would mean to move back home. (And we rent, so no problems with real estate.)

(Bizarre side note... when I told WW I could be moving back home a while ago, she made some comment about how something like that might make her do something crazy like quit her job and follow.)

You know... she's got herself in a MESS. She's got this job that on one hand likes, on the other hates (because of the mess / stress surrounding it), has OM #2 there now - not sure how much she sees him, but I'm completely convinced that A died a firey, miserable death, in the wake of that A crashing, she starts a new one with a more "suitable" guy... lives closer... I suspect has been in her apartment, possibly... is now undoubtedly pinning a lot of "hope" on him (no pressure, man!)... looking for any fix she can get, basically... desparate to create the "dual life" again (i.e. me on the side-line - Mr.Backup) - part for security, part for the thrill of lying.

I know there's other folks out there with crazier stories, but folks... I never expected this. I was just sitting here, minding my business...

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Wow! I mean WOW!!! I can't believe this J.R.!!

Sounds like you're handling it well, and making good decisions. This is unbelievable and I'm SO SORRY this has happened. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I just KNEW she was going to clear the fog and you 2 would recover!!!

You are not a quitter - you've done GREAT!!! A FINE example of Plan A and the MB ways all around. You are a survivor, and you're gonna be fine.

Please keep us posted. If I were a gamblin' chick, I'd STILL say your W will wake up when the D becomes a reality.

Hang in there!!!

Faith, I don't think I want my WW to wake up... it would be just too painful to see that happen after I'm long gone, enjoying life somewhere else, with someone else. In a way, I just hope she stays in her fog forever.

I was doing some writing / venting to IC/MC tonight... Wrote this:

Deep down is her inner child... trembling, ashamed... just wants me to comfort her, hold her, tell her it's going to be okay... laugh and play for me... be as free and innocent as she was when we were young... ready to be excited, happy, loved, loving, selfless... I see it now and then... I love that child. It's why I married her. But it's so far removed... so far disconnected with who I see today when she talks to me... so I have to accept and let go. It hurts so much to do so... I'm crying at the thought right now. It could have been me to help her out of this... help her find a better place to be... but I can't do it.

That sums it up pretty much for me. I'm truly starting to grieve properly now, I think. I'm fully letting go the idea that this will end with recovery. And so now pain that I've held back for a long time is coming out... I'll work through it. Going to see the doctor tomorrow about meds... Does WW even comprehend what's happening? Ah, blissful ignorance. You've got to believe the pain is still pushed all in there somewhere... will come spilling out big time someday.

J.R. - now's the time to put yourself first and take all the legal actions that protect YOU! You should have no shame or guilt in doing so.

How 'bout you and I go out for a beer so this old fart can take notes on how young, good looking guys fare with the ladies these days?

J.R.

For whatever it's worth .... I myself would have said adios to this marriage ...like yesterday.

Hold your head up. You're quite the guy. You have nothing shameful looking back at you in the mirror.

Your W , will have years of recovery ... if she ever decides to do the work ... and she might never decide to do the work. I have one gal-friend who has been married 8 times .... eight times .... ocho veces ... She was an incredible beauty in her day (she's in her 60's now). She played the ingenue in movies in the 1950's .... and I think the only reason she is still married to number 8 is because she is no longer the stunning beauty she once was ... and her options are limited. Some women never "get it". My gal-friend left a wake of confused and love tortured men .... and she seldom looked back. She was addicted to romance ... and never quite got the hang of committment. Her children can't stand her ... and that's the best thing about your situation ... no kids to co-parent with her.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ September 05, 2002, 10:54 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

PS ... Husband number 8 thinks he's number 4 ! LOL!

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Pep:

"I'm 'enery the 8th I am! 'enery the 8th I am, I am!"

Sorry, J.R. I couldn't resist! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Herman's Hermit's ROCK .....

well....

not really, but they were kinda cute.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

J.R.-

Wow. I am truly sorry. I really thought you were on your way to recovery with her... but now it's time to start your own recovery. That's where I am now. STBX and I signed the property settlement agreement this morning... which effectively cuts 6 months off the divorce process. He's moved the last of his stuff out, and I'll be moving to my own apartment on 9/15. After the house closing on 9/25, contact with him will be very limited.

I wish you the best. You are a great guy and deserve so much better than this. Any woman you choose to give your love and commitment to in the future should count her lucky stars to have someone who is willing to work as hard as you have on a marriage.

-JG

Ha ha... Well, this guy is number 4... not married to any of them but one... someday she will marry again... and I feel sorry for that poor SOB.

Will be interesting to see what happens. I'm still debating whether to "out" this thing... Is it just a vindictive streak? Is there some geniune value in letting this poor guy know where he stands (i.e. clear my conscience)? Is it just fair, given that I'm still her husband as of today? Would outing it at least allow her to face her IC again, from an honest angle - so they can REALLY start to do some work? All questions I wrestle with.

How that must feel for her... not being able to truly open up to anyone (except me!!)... because she's got this to carry around with her. She WILL end up like so many stars who go from relationship to relationship. Sure, we married young, missed out on our "wild times". But get over it... You're not going to succeed like this. This hasn't worked for her.

WAT... I have no clue what young guys do today to attract the girls... hmmm, is it attractive to have pre-screenings with Steve? Maybe a full day of personality profiles? mmm, maybe not! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

J.R.:

"I'm still debating whether to "out" this thing... Is it just a vindictive streak?"

Do you mean reveal 2 your WW that you know? If that's your question, I'd say yes. What do you have 2 lose? And you may have something 2 gain.

"Is there some geniune value in letting this poor guy know where he stands (i.e. clear my conscience)? Is it just fair, given that I'm still her husband as of today?"

In my opinion, yes. But only if she matters 2 you still, and you have any remaining hope of recovery someday. I mulled over whether 2 tell OMW about the A for months, until I heard that she found out on her own and threw him out (chuckle, chuckle). THEN, I heard that she knew about their first PA several years ago and didn't tell ME. So I don't worry about it anymore. But if she hadn't found out about the first A, I think by now I would have contacted her.

"Would outing it at least allow her to face her IC again, from an honest angle - so they can REALLY start to do some work? All questions I wrestle with."

Again, this only matters if you are still working on saving your M. You certainly don't need 2 be dragged into her quagmire by involving yourself if you aren't.

"How that must feel for her... not being able to truly open up to anyone (except me!!)... because she's got this to carry around with her."

Very sad.

"She WILL end up like so many stars who go from relationship to relationship."

Stars are people 2. Rich people are subjected 2 As, cancer, auto accidents, just like the rest of us. 2 sad.

"Sure, we married young, missed out on our "wild times"."

I think this is a myth. Or an excuse for straying. Who REALLY wants "wild times"? and why not have them with your S?

"But get over it... You're not going to succeed like this. This hasn't worked for her."

And if she had more than 2 functioning brain cells, she'd see this.

J.R., have you posted the letter you sent her that you talk about here? Don't feel like you have 2, if you'd rather not. I'm just curious.

2L, the letter isn't exactly a Plan B letter, so I'd hate to post it in its entirety and possibly have people get the wrong idea. This isn't to say that it was hateful or angry or anything like that. It was much like that in Love Must Be Tough. Here's a few excerpts:

"WW… I’ve always loved you, back to when we were very young. I’ve always looked at you as the person who I chose to grow old with, and I’ve always wanted you to be happy… even at times when I failed to help you be that way.

Despite my mistakes, I still want you to be happy. And if that means ending our life together, then so be it. If that’s what it’s going to take for you to be happy, then I have to let you go, and I won’t stand in your way."

"I do know that I cannot live in a situation where we see each other, yet there is no direction towards where we’d need to be. Without action, I feel that I’m simply participating in a game of sorts. I will not do that any longer. This time has proven to me that it’ll be just too hard – too much like it was before I left – too much pain."

"I essentially realize I can’t compete… compete with whatever it is that stands in our way. If it was about my making changes in my life, I’ve certainly had a long time to do so and prove much. If I haven’t done enough by now… I never will. No, I realize when I’m beaten. I’m done fighting something I can’t beat. I believe we could go around and around, talking and talking about many things. But in my heart, the time for words is long past, as actions speak far louder for me."

"As I hope you can tell, I’m not writing this with anger in my words. I hope I’ve treated you with dignity and respect throughout all of this. I hope you’ll remember me as a strong man who stood tall in the face of everything. I hope you find what you’re looking for in life – and I hope it would have been something I could never give you, even with care, time and protection. I truly pray that you don’t wander aimlessly like so many others. I truly hope your mind can finally rest as your future becomes clearer now.

I thank you from the bottom of my heart for all of my treasured memories from the past 15 years. You will always be a part of me, until the day I die. I’m so sorry for the pain I’ve caused you, and I hope you can forgive me for that someday. I wish you the world, my dear. May you and your family live a long, wonderful life. Wish them all well for me."

So not like I'm saying I'm filing, but I certainly imply I'm going to, and will when my head is a little clearer.

Notwithstanding that, I reimplement my strict boundaries and have been less than 2 full days since delivery and NC.

I'm thinking right now that I'll sleep on my decision to "out" this. I was thinking of the e-mail to OM approach this time... he's new enough in the situation to maybe be willing to get out while he can. OR... leave it for IC/MC to deal with. But she won't see her until the 12th, and that's too much time IMHO to allow things to go on between them in a "bubble" state. Break that dang bubble I say. Break it while her mom is around and can hear her spewing venom about me - this will contrast markedly with WW telling her mom that I'll "always be a part of the family" just last weekend. I dunno... I don't really equate this with efforts to recover. I equate it more to efforts to heal myself - and sitting by silently doesn't feel right, when there's other choices. No more enabling.

J.R.

You were very kind, but necessarily firm.

I would agree with not allowing her bubble with this new OM 2 grow any more than you have 2, so emailing the OM about what he's gotten in2 is as much fair 2 him as it is honest. And she's still your W, after all, and so you will have 2 live with the consequences of your inaction at a potentially critical moment if you were 2 do nothing. That's just MHO, others may feel differently.

<small>[ September 05, 2002, 06:05 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

I'm sorry that it has to come to this, J.R.

But if it's any consolation, I'm the brown/gray haired one just in front of you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

If you remember, my WW out of the blue came here after over 2-month absence. Was here for 3 days, and I thought I saw a little less fog. But...she's gone again. Haven't seen or heard from her since. But I did get a message through my attorney. Wants to get the depos over with, and talk settlement. Was that a double 180 or what? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Anyway, I am beginning to truly believe that she has lost some of her marbles. One card short of a full deck, if you know what I mean. She's been doing some crazy things. Really crazy. Get this....

She is still living just up the road a bit with her parents. She gets home faithfully after work (the time she WAS spending with OM). Her and OM are over. I am 99.9% sure of that. Here is where it gets really wierd......

Around dark, 9pm or so, she leaves. She goes to her best friend's house(whom, by the way, started an A and filed for DV a few weeks after they started "running" together, and a couple of months after she left me). She just sleeps there. Has taken absolutely NONE of her possessions there. She awakens every morning around 5 AM or so, drives the 15 miles BACK to her parents here, gets ready for work, then proceeds BACK to the same town where her and her friend are staying. To beat that, they are staying just a couple of miles from where they work. She does this every single day. She is arriving here around 5:30 AM or so, just as I am leaving for work. Is this off the deep end or what?

Another thing, my WW was very sociable. Very loved by anyone that had the chance to know her. Guess what? Her best friend is now the ONLY friend she has. And they are determined to live like conjoined twins with the same warped brain.

Got off topic...Here is what I really meant to say.....

I just recently thought about something very enlightening. I am 41. Worked since I was 15. For the first time in my life, I have a 8 hr/day, 40/wk job. No weekends. EVERY evening free. TOP pay. Absolutely feel more alive mentally and physically better than I have in 20 years. Continuing with the "pride".......

I am ready to start building my and her "dream house". Just as soon as the DV is final, gonna start tearing up new ground. Putting the finishing touches on "our" dreams. Dreams that I know she STILL wants. Since the real estate I own is close to here, she's gonna have to drive by it everyday.

Then...after the dust settles real good, gonna find that someone special. Gonna start thinking about that precious child I want. Gonna have it all.

She's gonna see my new love, with HER dreams! Wonder if the A was worth that? She get to look everyday at that bridge she destroyed and burnt. The bridge to her dreams.

How sad.

Hang in there. You and I are exactly at the same point in our R's, (or X R's). If you ever get down, let me know. I send my e-mail addy your way.

Ridin' with ya J.R.

HCII

hcii:

Hm... ...do you really want 2 start a new R with your xW driving by all the time and seeing just how "happy" you have become? How would your new W feel about that? Do you really want 2 "live happy" 2 spite your xW?

2L: do you really want 2 start a new R with your xW driving by all the time and seeing just how "happy" you have become?

HC: Seriously? Right now it really doesn't matter.

2L: How would your new W feel about that?

HC: She should hope it doesn't matter.

2L: Do you really want 2 "live happy" 2 spite your xW?

HC: Nope. Not my intentions.

Probably didn't get all my explanations in. Point being is that I (we) had big plans. That part of my life is going to continue on, with or without her. As planned. Her Dv'ing me is NOT going to hold me back, nor alter my future, the future I had planned for ME. To NOT do what I (we) wanted would be allowing her to control my future, even after DV.

All my family lives here. The real estate is close to mom's. I am her only son. Although she doesn't get involved, I know she will enjoy that fact.

The way I see it, is there is really only 2 choices here. Continue with what I wanted, or let her DV'ing me prevent that from happening. It can be "argued" both ways. If I alter my future, then it will be said (Boy...She's really got him F***** Up. He STILL is living that memory. All those things he was going to do...can't even get motivated, now)....OR...If I continue, (I want you to look what that SOB is doing! Just for spite, mind you!)

So...those cancel each other. The only thing left is to do what I want to do. For me. I really wanted those things we planned, as bad as she.

When I said she's "gonna have to look at it everyday", I didn't mean that she HAS to. What I meant was that, knowing her, She will THINK she has to. She will drive out of her way, everyday, just to see the progress, once she hears about it.

So...to "correct" your line of..."Do you really want 2 "live happy" 2 spite your xW?". Nope.

Going to live my life IN spite of my wife.

There's the difference.

HC 2 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> (Sorry...been slacking a little)

Wow, hcii, eerie...

My WW has a GF back home who is her "best friend", I suppose. She never had a ton of friends, and this was one who's been with her as long as I have.

Their lives have (unknown to me) paralleled each other quite a bit. WW would tell me stories about how her GF would be sleeping around, cheating on her H (GF was married for 3-4 years at one point, had a child), etc. We always looked at each other and rolled our eyes a lot.

This GF has led such a screwed up love life. Has slept with probably 50 guys... got pregnant while unmarried recently - the R with the guy started to get rocky, so she got an abortion, etc. WW has taken solice in having me there to lament about GF, many times talking about how screwed up she IS.

Yet in her present form, WW only has GF to turn to. Suddenly she becomes a great source of comfort - and advice! It's the blind leading the blind. There was one point in this a long time ago when WW admitted she's always tempted to do the opposite of what GF suggests, just because she knows it'll turn out bad.

Now although they live in different countries, I think they talk A LOT. WW no longer has that EN for conversation met with me - intelligent conversation, I might add. So she has to turn somewhere, I guess. Oh well, let her wallow in slop.

I think for me, the biggest issue right now is this...

She was telling me one thing with her actions and words... and doing something completely different - AGAIN. I know, I shouldn't be surprised. Plenty of folks have false recoveries. And many have false recoveries into the 18-24 month time frame.

But with WW's attitude right now... she's done no real growing that I can see. Her talks with IC/MC have let her say things like "I can now express myself better" and "I know what it'll take to be a success" - yet not want to apply them to the M. She's got lots of wild oats to sow, I guess. We've seen the stories - quite common among those of us who married young.

So what concerns me most is that I was being brought back into a situation where an A could exist... she was lying through her teeth. And it becomes obvious that lies and secrecy are important to her. That's why I'm likely going to shine light on this latest A - the fun will disappear much more quickly, and maybe she'll figure things out more readily - to help herself in the future.

And with a new A in progress, I'm not going to wait for this entire cycle to repeat itself. No way.

hcii:

I apologize. I certainly meant no offense.

I guess in my own sitch, I'm reacting differently when I contemplate the possibility of DV. I may have a job offer out of state, and though we put a lot of our hearts and souls (and sweat!) in2 restoring our historic home, I guess I would rather sell it and start all over somewhere else. Eliminate as many memory associations as I can in the process. But then I think about THAT, and wonder if I'm just "running away" from my problems when I think like that. Probably.

So, I admire you for sticking 2 your original plans. Sorry for sounding otherwise. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />