At the core of your question is yet another question: Do they NEED to get it in order to have a happy marriage with you?
Do you need them to get it in order for you to be happy? If so, why?

Forgive the trip down esoteric lane, but... isn't all this about starting over? And since the A was a thing of the past, part and parcel to all the crap the BS pulled that helped add fuel to the fire, then isn't it best left in the past with no care or concern whether they "get it?"

I think the answer to whether they "get it" is right next to you in bed -- if the WS is now a FWS. They stayed. Of course they get it.

But, does it matter if they don't? Isn't the goal here to build a new marriage based on NEW concepts of love and NEW ways of doing business? If you've forgiven and vowed to do all you can to forget, then expecting them to "get it" or worry if they do... that just seems like you want them to feel that pain, and that's not what a marriage is supposed to be about.

You're there to protect and love. Whether they get it or not.

Hi Space, Just wanted to ck in and say hello. I am sorry I have not seen you posting much lately, so I had to ck out this thread. Good discussion.

My viewpoint, is sure they can ALL Get it it... it takes working to , and doing it.

Some don't, won't or just don't care... TOO SELFISH, maybe? To think about how others feel? Maybe even too immature to work on their part in the problem... too much of a blamer of the other partner to face their own failings?

I just hate all this, and what it brings.

Hope you are doing well.. what is up with your plan B?

Hugs, HOnEY <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Chorus..

If they don't get it what do you expect can happen later?? They have to acknowledge and accept it or it will just happen again. That you can bank on!

QUOTE:
"You're there to protect and love. Whether they get it or not."

I would like to think that a BS would want to protect themselves from that ever happening again.

As Always JMHO
committed

<small>[ September 26, 2002, 12:49 PM: Message edited by: committedandlovingit ]</small>

I don't think they (WS) can ever truly get it on a level that they should. It is if you see someone with a broken arm and you never had one. You think you know the pain that came with it and what they are going through but the fact of the matter you can't feel what they are feeling or felt. Now if you had a broken arm that is another story because you have been there and done that. A WS will never really get it unless they have lived it.

Hey, SS;
Good to hear from you.

I've been a little reluctant to post about me, (in fact have been away from the forum pretty much), because I've become very unsure of whether Plan B is going to work in my case or not.

Certainly my W has not made a single "move" in any way, shape, or form, and that's about as I expected. I have seen her several times, mostly when coming or going with the kids, and I have been loving and caring when this has happened. She knows I want to reconcile, but she's not willing (or not yet willing) to do any of what I asked for.

I've shown her and told her that I love her, and that I'm ready to forgive, but she's given very few indications of willingness to do anything about it. I have no doubt she loves me, I just think she has doubts about being able to be happy with me. Doubts that I can ever truly forgive her.

So I guess I'll have to find some other ways of communicating this to her, since being away and in Plan B doesn't seem to be doing much in terms of getting her to decide something.

Personally doing quite well, have some good job possibilities (fingers crossed!), and the kids are doing well. So I can't complain from that end.

Thanks for coming by, SS.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Chorus:
<strong>At the core of your question is yet another question: Do they NEED to get it in order to have a happy marriage with you?
Do you need them to get it in order for you to be happy? If so, why?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Very good questions, Chorus.
To the first, I will say no, they don't NEED to get it, but I believe thsat if they DO get it, it is better for both of us. For her, because if she gets that, she'll see just how very wrong her assumptions about our M and myself were; just how much of it was "self-justification" that occured in her mind.

As for me, well, I'd feel better about Recovery being true if she gets this. Not saying Recovery without it is impossible, just that it would be better...probably more "real" and make it less likely that something like this will happen again.

It's like everything else, when we're ignorant of what we're doing, we're likely to make many more mistakes. When we learn about our behavior and what causes it, what affects it, although we may not correct everything, at least we're aware of it and can watch for it, and avoid it more of the time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Honey:
<strong>...Hope you are doing well.. what is up with your plan B?

Hugs, HOnEY <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm doing OK, Honey, thanks! Actually have progressed quite a bit personally, although I do have my crying spells when certain things happen, like when I talk to my mom, or when old friends call...

My Plan B. Well, let me see...I have to say my Plan B is not the best Plan B. In fact, it's probably as un-Plan B as Plan B can get. I'm having serious doubts about Plan B having any effect on my W, and on the contrary, I think that showing her more unconditional love when I've been with her/seen her, has been much more positive.

On a couple of encounters we've had and said things, she's actually cried, (which she had NOT done in a long time), hugged me, and seems sad to see "us" slipping away. Although she has seen I DO love her and want her, she's also seen me getting farther and farther away. Closer to being able to really let go...so I don't know. I feel like love will do more to bring us together than depriving her of it.

Still working on the "right" formula, I guess!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by confused_guy:
<strong>I don't think they (WS) can ever truly get it on a level that they should. It is if you see someone with a broken arm and you never had one. You think you know the pain that came with it and what they are going through but the fact of the matter you can't feel what they are feeling or felt. Now if you had a broken arm that is another story because you have been there and done that. A WS will never really get it unless they have lived it.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sorry CG, but you seemed to mis-understand my question. It was not whether the WS "feels my pain", but rather do they see what their actions did to us and our relationship in terms of distance, lack of intimacy, etc. while the A was going on.

Whether they see that or not and can differentiate between what was real in terms of my mistakes, and what was either caused by their "self-justification" or what was caused by "self fulfilling prophesy" once the affair started.

That I was tripping over an invisible elephant all the time, and tried to do something about it, but could never succeed because I was trying to do something about an issue I was not aware of.

Hi space I have a question

Is it partly our fault that WS strays because we don't meet there emotional need?

I was reading on this site .... A man lost his Job because he didn't renew his certfication.

He became angry and blame his job, he went to counseling because of depression. The therapist stop him in his tracks, and said hold it didn't you know if you don't take care A, B there will be consequences.

In other words basically it was being implied that we should know whats going on in our marriages. Like we should know ourselve not quoteing exactly but simular.

Not saying we are responsible but we play a big part.I blame myself constanly, I believe this what's slowing up my healing process I haven't forgave me.

Really no I believe WS will never get it. Until they actually feel what we feel, then and only then will they get it. Until then they will only minimize our pain . I wonder do WS asked the same question do we get it, by not meeting an EN this is the end result, just asking a question this is being thrown in my face constanly.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MALC:
<strong>Hi space I have a question
Is it partly our fault that WS strays because we don't meet there emotional need?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In principle, yes. In reality, it's a lot more complicated than that.
For starters, it is my opinion that most WSs stray due to unresolved personal issues more than due to anything the BS did or did not do.
It may "appear" to be that the BS didn't filfill ENs, but then again, did the WS EXPRESS those needs to the BS? Probably not...we usually don't.
Then we get more complicated; did the WS not express the needs because they didn't know how, or because sub-consciously they didn't want to or couldn't? Which brings us back to the underlying issues: in my view, personal unresolved issues.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was reading on this site .... A man lost his Job because he didn't renew his certfication.

He became angry and blame his job, he went to counseling because of depression. The therapist stop him in his tracks, and said hold it didn't you know if you don't take care A, B there will be consequences.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is different. One is responsible for one's own actions, and one is responsible for knowing what one has the opportunity to know. When things are being hidden from you (on purpose or not) it is very difficult for you to be made responsible for them.

And that, PRECISELY, was the point of my initial question. Does the WS realize (get it) that by hiding their feelings from us, they made it much more possible for there to be an affair, and once it started, by continuing to hide it, made the problems even worse because then even the faint signs of trouble were being deliberately hidden and confused so as not to give themselves away. (The invisible elephant the BS is always tripping on).

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In other words basically it was being implied that we should know whats going on in our marriages. Like we should know ourselve not quoteing exactly but simular.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, in principle yes. In reality...who teaches us this? Nobody. So if we choose to learn about it and become aware of it, then maybe we could have averted the problem. But reality is that we don't learn about these things until we have to. Until an event such as an affair forces us to.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not saying we are responsible but we play a big part.I blame myself constanly, I believe this what's slowing up my healing process I haven't forgave me.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We share the "blame" if there IS any blame. I don't believe there should be. Few if any WSs have an affair on purpose to hurt us or their marriage. After it starts, events take a life of their own, and it is only the core values, strength, morals of each person which will determoine if they are capable of doing "the right thing"...most of us are not.
We should be forgiving of the WS, and we should be forgiving of ourselves. These things are not planned or executed deliberately, for the most part, they happen due to a confluence of the "right" circumstances.
Forgivenss, of ourselves and the WS, is essential. If we cannot forgive them, then we are doing to them what most of them did not do to us; deliberately hurt.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Really no I believe WS will never get it. Until they actually feel what we feel, then and only then will they get it. Until then they will only minimize our pain . I wonder do WS asked the same question do we get it, by not meeting an EN this is the end result, just asking a question this is being thrown in my face constanly. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That depends on what "IT" means. If "IT" is do they feel our pain? then probably not until they feel it themsleves.

If "IT" is do they understand what happened and how, then yes...I believe they CAN get it. If they choose to get it. And THAT was my question to begin with...do most WSs choose to get it or not?

I've been reading this thread with interest, and as I always say, "well, I don't know much about anything", but I really thought about this thread.

I think, I'll agree with most, when I say that some WS will get it and others won't. I read on this site about how some WS carry on their A's even after they are discovered, and think to myself, "I know I behaved badly, but I would never, could never, have continued to behave like that".

The point I'm making is that all WS, like everyone in this world, are different. Some of us truly want to examine ourselves and try to find out why we could have inflicted such terrible pain and hurt on people that we proclaim to love and care for - this is something I battle with constantly, and will not rest until I find a somewhat satisfactory answer. Whatever needs were or weren't being met, I wasn't meeting my H's and he didn't have an A. So why was I the selfish, thoughtless, low life? Nothing can ever condone the A - H was not at fault, I could have stopped myself and I dind't, I could have spoken to H and I didn't. I will never justify the A because H may or may not have been meeting my needs.

Back to your original thought though. Yes, I do get it. The first night I spent with OM, I spent all day plucking up courage to call H. When I did, he told me "Don't want to talk to you now, I'm tired, I'm going for a sleep". Whilst on some levels, he wasn't meeting me EN for conversation, he didn't know that I'd just began a PA with someone else. Of course, at the time, I translated that as "See, he's not even bothered about where I was or who I was with last night" I justified my actions because he didn't want to talk. Any other time, and in fact me to him, it's never been an issue or a problem.

There are other examples I could give, but the point is, I understand that I used whatever he did/did not do, to justify my actions. Some nights I'd be out with OM, and he wouldn't ask me where I was going or who I was going out with. At that time, I was out all the time, and H just couldn't keep up. I translated that as "he's not even bothered who I'm with, so I can carry on what I'm doing".

Yes, he unwittingly tripped over the invisble elephant, and yes I let him so I could think that the way I was behaving was OK.

I think this is what you mean SC, but maybe, I've got it totally wrong and am talking waffle.

Finally, H actually said to me last night "I do truly think you emphasise and understand the pain I am going through". Maybe not, but that in some small way I am supporting him enough to say that must mean something....

Lisa

[QUOTE]Originally posted by committedandlovingit:
[QB]Chorus..

If they don't get it what do you expect can happen later?? They have to acknowledge and accept it or it will just happen again. That you can bank on!

CALI, et al...
No, really, they don't. And if they do, it doesn't mean they won't cheat again. And, reasonably, they may never get what damage they have done to the relationship, and still never cheat again.
Both parties have to accept. BS has to accept that the affair happened. WS has to accept whatever stupid behavior the BS did to help nurture the A, as well as the A itself.
Either way you slice it, you cannot prevent your spouse from wandering again. All you can do is create an environment they won't want to leave, and establish rules that any violation of will get them deported from this safe place muy pronto.

Once you do that, you don't need them to "get it." All they need to get is: Do it again, and you are out.The.Door.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Chorus:
<strong>...Either way you slice it, you cannot prevent your spouse from wandering again. All you can do is create an environment they won't want to leave, and establish rules that any violation of will get them deported from this safe place muy pronto.

Once you do that, you don't need them to "get it." All they need to get is: Do it again, and you are out.The.Door.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">While I agree you cannot prevent a spouse from wandering again, I have to disagree with the rest, Chorus.

If we make ourselves responsible for creating and maintaining an environment where they won't want to stray, we are taking on a burden we cannot possibly carry. THEY must take part of the responsibility for that environment and for their own happiness. We cannot give anyone happiness, each has to find it on their own.

And if you have to "establish rules that any violation of will get them deported from this safe place muy pronto", then you are only attempting to "force" them into doing what you want, and that is not a marriage. That is called prison.

And this is PRECISELY why I think that IF they don't "get it", and realize these things on their own, then you don't have "Recovery". All you have is a false sense of security based on the threat of "deportation".

LinL; you got it exactly right.

As an XWS, you understand the justifications you used, and you understand there was an invisible elephant over which your H was tripping.

Understanding and knowing this will make it less likely that you will fall into the same trap again, don't you think?

Thank you Space - I know it sounds silly, but I feel so stupid with what I say and think sometimes, that I really wasn't sure if I had got it - I think for me this means I'm open to a) learning, not just about myself but my H, and b) accept that I actively caused a situation that caused great pain to my H and used any old excuse to justify it at the time. This is incredibly hard for me to do, but at some stage I have to stop beating myself up if H and I can move forward together.

It's still hard - as I said previously, I battle all the time to work out why I did that. I hate the way that some BS refer to us WS or FWS (no-one's referred to me as that before, and I think I should start to do that!), because I got it very very quickly. Oh I know, my pain will never reach the depths of my H or the other BS, but a few of us FWS out here really are trying hard to grapple with ourselves, our consciences, and the appalling notion of deliberately and precisely wrecking all that we held dear.....

Lisa

Spacecase --
Respectfully disagree with your respectful disagreement of my respectful disagreement. When I say create a space they won't want to leave, to foster that love, that doesn't mean they HAVE to stay. It means you facilitate staying by being a truly good person.
By agreeing to commit to our marriage, my FWS has said she believes the person I want to be is the kind of person she wants in her life. I'm not doing it for her, but for myself. The by-product could be a caring, loving environment, the same environment she was initially attracted to so many years ago, but now more mature and more capable of adult behavior.
If that's the case, in theory, she won't WANT to leave. If she does, then I have lost nothing in the bargain. In fact, I gain. I gain myself. I learn to love myself.

If I had to sum up the 75 or so posts I've put up in the past 3 months, it would be the gradual realization of this simple tenant: Be the you that you want to be. If that you is attractive to your spouse, then you have a loving spouse to share your life. If not, then all the Plan As and Bs and Get Its and everything else are simply for nought. They won't want to stay because you are not the person they want to love.

To create this person, I have rules. She has agreed to those rules. Those rules are for my protection and hers. They are simple, and basic and not terribly difficult to grasp: Be nice to each other, love as unconditionally as humanly possible, understand your choices have consequence, and live your life with the goal of being happy.
There are, of course, refinements and amendments, but those are minor and will eventually be given up as we gave up rules governing horses on streets. They simply won't be necessary.

In the meantime, the best environment for a loving relationship, IMHO, is not a controlling environment where I sit waiting for those signs of remorse and guilt. I'd rather get on with our Friday night plans and have a good life. I don't really have time for the pain.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lisa in London:
<strong>Thank you Space - I know it sounds silly, but I feel so stupid with what I say and think sometimes, that I really wasn't sure if I had got it - I think for me this means I'm open to a) learning, not just about myself but my H, and b) accept that I actively caused a situation that caused great pain to my H and used any old excuse to justify it at the time. This is incredibly hard for me to do, but at some stage I have to stop beating myself up if H and I can move forward together.

It's still hard - as I said previously, I battle all the time to work out why I did that. I hate the way that some BS refer to us WS or FWS (no-one's referred to me as that before, and I think I should start to do that!), because I got it very very quickly. Oh I know, my pain will never reach the depths of my H or the other BS, but a few of us FWS out here really are trying hard to grapple with ourselves, our consciences, and the appalling notion of deliberately and precisely wrecking all that we held dear.....

Lisa</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lisa;
First of all, NOTHING you said is stupid. On the contrary; you are above and beyond many who persist in blaming the BS for everything.

Secondly; you are human, and as such, you did the best you knew how to do with the information you had at the time. That is, after all, what we all do! Every day!

The fact that you chose to look inside, see things you did not like, and try to change them is something you should be very proud of. Not many of us really do this. And even more importantly, you have had the courage to expose that weakness, that flaw publicly here...and that takes more courage and integrity than many of us have.

So stop "beating yourself up", forgive yourself, forgive your H, and make the best use of your new-found knowledge you can: make your M an example to others!

And I, by the way, dislike the terms BS, WS, and all their derivatives, but that is what we are known as here, so I use them.

Be proud of yourself, Lisa, for your courage and integrity. The very best sign of a moral an "whole" person is when they can admit to their mistakes, and make a sincere effort to correct them. And by exposing your weaknesses here, you will find that you can still be loved and appreciated, and that, my dear, is the first step to feeling and then being able to give unconditional love. Real Love!

Chorus, if I mis-interpreted your words, forgive me, but this is what you said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> All you can do is create an environment they won't want to leave, <strong>and establish rules that any violation of will get them deported from this safe place muy pronto.

Once you do that, you don't need them to "get it." All they need to get is: Do it again, and you are out.The.Door. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Spacecase-

Upon further reading of this thread, I'd have to say that there are a few possibilities. I know I'm the master of the obvious. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Having the WS "get it" probably aids in the recovery process and affair-proofing the M so there won't be another A. However, there still could be another A someday even if WS gets it.

And in a recovery in which the WS does not REALLY get it, there may never be another A.

I would have to say though, that it makes sense that self-reflection on one's faults would seem to increase the chances of NOT having another A (at least I'd love for my W to "get it").

(basically, I'm saying anything is possible but some things are more probable than others.)

The WS "getting it" is one of many things that would be great to happen (along with many other things - Radical Honest, Joint Agreement, providing an awesome environment etc...) that would aid in keeping a M strong and not having another A. But another A could still happen (just not as likely I guess).

SC quote------------------------------------------
As for everyone's right not to stay in an unhappy marriage: absolutely! Everyone has the right to leave what they consider an unhappy marriage. And if my W had done that it would have broken my heart, but it would have been more honest than to maintain a 2+ year affair. THAT is a "right" nobody has.
quote---------------------------------------------

I agree, it would have been different (better?) if my W divorced me and did not have an A (even though I would have been probably just as devastated.) However, the interesting thing is that my W has told me the same thing. She said she wishes that she had divorced me and regrets not doing it first (it almost seemed that she was saying it not out of guilt for me, but out of some kind of realization that she has doomed her relationship with OP by starting when involved with me.)

She has said that she feels guilty and is sorry and sad for the pain she has caused me. While I know those are her honest feelings, it seems illogical to me that she continues A then. My W doesn't realize that making a real attempt at working on the M may help her to deal with her own demons/regrets and truly be healed/free herself from her guilt. Or if she does realize this, she is just so into the A that she doesn't want it to end and/or the lazy side of her doesn't want to have to deal with the deep rooted issues that she has. (I'm just hypothesizing here.)
She has said she knows she has issues but she wants to deal with them by herself (but also with OP's help) and not through being married to me or working on M with me.

Her reasoning is that now the A is ok because
1. we are separated,
2. I know about OM; and
3. she is planning on divorcing me soon.

I wonder about what you said about the TYPE of A your W had. It seems your W's was like the ultimate cake-eating kind, sorta the split personality one, in which needs are met by both S and OP and they can't/don't/won't choose to be with just one or the other.

I'm not so sure my W had/is having that kind of A. She has made it clear that she has chosen OM over me. She says she will divorce me soon. So I guess that means she had an EXIT affair (although she hasn't completely exited because she hasn't filed yet). What do you think?

I wonder though if her not divorcing me just yet is because of what she says (she is saving up the money for it) or if it is because she is scared, or concerned what her family will think, or maybe cannot totally cut me out of her life... or all of the above? I guess it is pointless for me to wonder.

Again, I just want to reiterate my answer to your original question that some WS REALLY do get it (and without having to experience it.)

Lastly, I just wanted to make a comment on your situation Spacecase. I've read on and off your old posts pre Plan B. From my perspective, it seems that you went to Plan B to prevent yourself from LBing your W and to save what was left in your lovebank.

It seemed to me that there was quite a flury of activity happening towards the end there (when Steve thought there was more hope than you, based on conversation with your W, etc.) You seemed to have Plan B looming in your mind as the next step because so much time had passed and your W still had not budged despite your plan A and conversations.

I took your move to Plan B to be to save the love you had for her. You really seemed to be expecting your W to come around (because it almost seemed like she was going to.) When she didn't, it really frustrated you and LB'd you.

You really did seem to be freaking/flipping out a bit that you needed to place yourself in Plan B for your own sake and not just the M's.

So now the point of the Plan B is to keep your love/desire to work on M around for as long as possible for the chance that your W will come around to work on the M. It may not happen. She may not want to try or "get it" or anything.

However, remember the point of Plan B is not necessarily to bring you together or to get her to suddenly feel no EN being met, hit rock bottom, and come running to you.

The point of Plan B is for you. It is not only to get you used to the idea and life of permanent separation. It will help you with healing on your own if you do get divorced (as well as prevent you from having an A with your W if you get remarried but still have contact with your W.)

Plan B is also for your patience. It is to get you to last even longer than you have. To get you past that point when you say "this is it I can't take it any longer", and to get you to take it just a bit longer. Just in case. Just in case she comes around so you will still be ready, willing, and able for the start of a recovery. It may not happen. As the website says, many couples never do reconcile. However, it is for you, knowing you literally did everything you could and waited as long as you could. Be patient. No one knows what the future holds. I wish you the best.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Posted by Aanast: I took your move to Plan B to be to save the love you had for her. You really seemed to be expecting your W to come around (because it almost seemed like she was going to.) When she didn't, it really frustrated you and LB'd you.

You really did seem to be freaking/flipping out a bit that you needed to place yourself in Plan B for your own sake and not just the M's. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Entirely correct.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So now the point of the Plan B is to keep your love/desire to work on M around for as long as possible for the chance that your W will come around to work on the M. It may not happen. She may not want to try or "get it" or anything.

However, remember the point of Plan B is not necessarily to bring you together or to get her to suddenly feel no EN being met, hit rock bottom, and come running to you.

The point of Plan B is for you. It is not only to get you used to the idea and life of permanent separation. It will help you with healing on your own if you do get divorced (as well as prevent you from having an A with your W if you get remarried but still have contact with your W.)

Plan B is also for your patience. It is to get you to last even longer than you have. To get you past that point when you say "this is it I can't take it any longer", and to get you to take it just a bit longer. Just in case. Just in case she comes around so you will still be ready, willing, and able for the start of a recovery. It may not happen. As the website says, many couples never do reconcile. However, it is for you, knowing you literally did everything you could and waited as long as you could. Be patient. No one knows what the future holds. I wish you the best. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is true, and exactly the reason for my doing it. However, I am now having second thoughts about the wisdom of it, and trying an approach that I'd not tried before, which is to show my W that despite the A, and the lies and deceit, I do still love her; truly love her. And I do. I have come to believe that this is EXACTLY what she has been looking for all along; Real Love. So I believe that if I can give it to her, she may finally realize that she has found what she was looking for all along.

Just to clarify, the fact that I do love her and would like to save my M does not mean I am ready to go home and again live under the conditions I was before. I cannot do that, and I won't. I believe that as she sees and feels my love, she will begin to see and "feel" some of my pain as well, and she will have to make her decisions as to what she should do for to respect my feelings. It is all part of "getting it". I just want her to do it on her own; I can't tell her.

<small>[ September 28, 2002, 02:38 AM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>