TMCM,
You wrote:

"Trivializing H_P's xH's pain by claiming it's his ego that is blocking any progress shows a lack of understanding of the pain that a BS goes thru."

I'm sorry that my comments came across so badly. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I never meant to say that her husband's pain was insignificant, or to lessen it in any way. You're right, I don't know what a BS feels, I only know what it feels like to cause it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

What I was trying to say was that he has a protection barrier around him that was created in response to his pain and the only way for him to open up to her again is if she can regain his trust by being consistent with her honesty and open with her vulnerablity to her own feelings. I was trying to encourage her to take a risk, and share what it is she is feeling and thinking.

I was using the word "EGO" as a name for the pain barrier that surronuds the vulnerable places in EVERY human being. The "inner child" I referred to was the vulnerable places in EVERY human being.

Again I apologize if my words seemed harsh or inconsiderate. It wasn't meant to be that way.

Kily

I felt that you meant well but unfortunately the word 'ego' has been so misused and now has a negative connotation attached to it when it's used to explain another person's behavior. It's like the word 'gay' which used to be another word for happy, but now has a totally different meaning.

It takes a loonnnggg time for many BS's to regain their sense of self worth as people and be able to trust the people that betrayed them. Pushing a a xBS to reconcile is almost akin to pushing a person that went thru a terrible accident to get back on their feet and continue with his/her normal activities prior to the accident. If H_P has enough time and patience for the long haul recovery of her xH, then she stands a good chance of regaining her xH's love and trust.

I reiterate that H_P is a good person that made a bad mistake by having an A that destroyed her M, has repented, and is worthy of being loved by a good man. She has punished herself enough and needs to realize that it does her, or anybody she cares for, no good to continue doing it. H_P now needs to move forward with her life and if that means not with her xH then so be it. There are plenty of good men out there that would love to have a woman like her as their W. But I once again caution that she needs to do this without falling into the trap of demonizing her xH otherwise she goes back to the mindset that destroyed her M to begin with.

<small>[ October 30, 2002, 09:10 PM: Message edited by: TooMuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

Hi Everyone,
I hope you've had a great week. Mine has been okay, just too busy. (sorry to say it again!)

Before I answer your questions, etc, let me tell you a bit of a 'positive' that happened. To back up, last Friday evening ExH seemed especially cold when he picked up the boys here. It all seemed so hopeless. He was supposed to bring a small check by here on Sunday evenning, but he forgot. I didn't call him and gripe or anything, figuring he'd remember eventually.

Anyway, Monday evening he called to ask when it would be good to bring by the check. I simply said, "Well, whenever it's good for you." He then asked me if I wanted a company freebie for giveaway on Halloween. He certainly didn't ask if I wanted any the last two Halloweens, and we were separated for both of those. I was very grateful, and of course said, "Yes." He came over shortly thereafter, and he gave me the freebies and check. I then asked him a technical computer question. He's an expert at it. He helped me for quite a while (20 minutes? long for him to be here) I even gave him a playful 'tap' in the stomach as I said something kind of playful about how excellent he was at the computer. He didn't wince or recoil at my gesture. He actually looked gleeful, and was grinning ear to ear with pride, or something. He left on a happy note, but naturally we haven't communicated since then. I just tried to treat him in a very upbeat manner, which is my 'normal' way with people.

I'd like to send him a thank you note for the 'stuff' he brought over, and for the help, but then I worry he'll once again feel 'pressure'. It's hard. He will be by here to do a repair when I'm not home this weekend. Perhaps I'll leave baked goods for him. He might like that!

I brought up Thanksgiving when he was here. We worked it out, but I didn't invite myself to join him and the children in the morning. We haven't been together on any holidays in over two years, since the separation.

Thanks to all of you for your responses. I appreciate all of them, and I'm sorry I'm so behind in answering them.

Sharon, I think you're right in cutting out R talk. He always hated it, anyway. Yes, holidays are hard, even this evening. We used to always do something fun with the kids.

Others too have said that he is trying to make me 'pay' for what I did. Who knows. I can't blame him, it was a horrible thing.

Lisa, Thanks for your input, too. I didn't ask myself along for Thanksgiving. I feel instinctively he'll say no. I did tell him he could join my extended family, but he said 'No."

You're right, too, I need to remember the longevity of the R with the OM. My exH needs a lot of time . I want to reach out and hug him so badly, but I haven't hugged him in three years.


Thanks, JL for your reply. My closest girlfriend said the same thing as you, that I have to remember that OM has been gone only three months. I don't think my exH really KNOWS the whole timeline, but I am certain he must have an idea.

You're right, too, that he did depend on me. He always told me I was HIS HERO. Can you imagine, and look what I did.

You're right, I must be patient. I will keep that in mind. Holiday wise, as I mentioned above, exH and I haven't been together since the separation. I can see how he must feel...like now I want him back, just because OM is gone. I see how it must look to him.

His family lives far from this area. I haven't spoken with his SIL since the separation. I have contemplated calling her, but it's been over two years. He (exH) speaks with them rarely. I don't know if it would help, or not. He does have a close male friend , but that would be entirely inappropriate for me to talk with him. So there you are...should I call up the SIL after so long?
I don't think she even knows the full story, if you get my drift.

Yes, I think he is depressed. He's always been low key, but now it's beyond that. On the surface, he looks happy to everyone. (not to me) That's his way.

Kily and Coffeeman,
Thanks for your responses, too. Kily, I appreciate what you're saying. I wish I could be more open with my exH. Right now I don't know if he wants to hear a thing. I know you didn't mean for me to negate the pain I caused him.

Coffeeman, I didn't wish to imply that exH should feel badly for not forgiving me. I understand how he feels . If it came off that way, it was probably only what I would call a 'vent' on my part. I put him thru misery, I know it. His reaction of complete withdrawal on the surface is understandable. My only prayer is that he will someday forgive me. If not, then so be it.

This may sound crazy, but I still can't believe that this is where I am in my life at this point. I never in a million years thought I would have an A, and end up divorced. Never imagined my exH not loving me, never wanted or imagined being alone. I remember clear as a bell.... backing up the car out of my driveway as I first went off to meet OM, and thinking as I viewed my home--'You are making a choice here that may forever change your life." Yet, I foolishly continued on my way to disaster. That is the hard part--how I could be so destructive to me, and to others, too. How I could be so selfish! I have quit beating myself up completely, but on the other hand, I don't think a person can ever forgive him/herself completely.
You just have to let go of it a little to live day to day!

Thanks for all of your help. Any and all advice/input is so appreciated.

God bless all of you,
H_P

H_P,

You said: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You're right, too, I need to remember the longevity of the R with the OM. My exH needs a lot of time . I want to reach out and hug him so badly, but I haven't hugged him in three years.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, why don't you hug him now? I mean if nothing is changing in how your treat him, how will he know that you really have changed?

Do you realize how sad that statement is? You have had your hugs and such, but he has simply been left. Period end of story. Wonder why he is soooo tenative around you? That statement alone might explain a lot about where he feels things are.

Frankly, I suspect what is going to happen if he doesn't come to believe that you are seriously interested in him, not just as a fill in and second choice, but as the man you married, is that after an appropriate time (at divorce), he will start to date again.

I don't know if he can give his heart to a woman again, but I suspect that he will start to think about it with time.

H_P, if you feel like hugging him, the darn it do it. What are you afraid of that he will pull away? So what. He has already pulled away from you emotionally. It does sound as if he is depressed. But I doubt he will focus on that.

In any event, give him what you know he needs. He needs someone to care about him and it doesn't seem he has had that in a long time. Your words won't mean much, but your actions will gradually speak to him.

Read Kily's post and see how her exBF reacted when she hugged him. It affect both of them.

Don't you find it interesting, that you acted on impluse and pulled out of that driveway to go see OM and change your life? Knowing that it would crush your H/ But you cannot act on impluse to do something that just might help rebuild him, if not your marriage?

Why do people fear doing good things for people they care about, but seem to have less problem doing things they want but will hurt the people they care about?

I think you need to think about this.

H_P, it seems that he is capable of smiling in your presence. It seems that he will be around you and not run. It seems to me that you need to act on your impulses more.

It also seems to me that perhaps you could consider having him over with the kids on the day AFTER Thanksgiving. It might no put as much pressure on him, but it might start to melt the ice. THe is especially true IF your children would like to have him over.

As for the thank you note, if you feel it puts too much pressure on him, then just call him and say something short and sweet and hang up. No relationship talks, just a "thanks" for the help, I really appreciated it. Your a good man.

The point? You need to build him up, and a "thank you" will help do that. You also need to let him know that you think well of him. I doubt he feels that you do.\

Please understand H_P where he very likely is. I doubt that you fully appreciate it. But if he called you his "hero" that tells you something about where he was, and very like where he is today with regard to his self confidence, self esteem, and trust.

You, my dear, are going to have to rebuild him, before he can begin to think about rebuilding the marriage. This can be done directly, and sometimes very effectively via other people: his children, his family, your family, mutual friends, people at church. The more you say good things about him to other people the more you plant the seeds. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Must go, but hope you have a good weekend.

God Bless,

JL

Hi H_P,

Just to let you know I'm thinking of you. I am not going to be posting as much. Things are going downhill R-wise. But, for me personally things are getting much better.

Sounds like things are going better for you. You are getting some good advice. Good job on the computer-thing. Sounds like some $LB deposits. Just keep making them, you will feel better and so will your Ex. It never hurts to be kind.

Take care I will check up on you. Have a great weekend. Hope you had a fun Halloween.

Sharon

Hello, hopeful_person:

I am a betrayed spouse who is working with God and with his faith to try to forgive my WW, and she is not at all repentant and shows no signs of coming back. Never-the-less, I have decided to stand for my marriage and have faith that God will see me through this.

I have some questions. Do you know why you had an affair? This question is not as trite as it seems. Do you know the thought processes that led to your going to another man? I am trying to get some insight into my own exwife's thought processes. I want to know more of what might be going through her mind.

Also, how could you go on in an affair for 4 years and then, all of a sudden, 'wake up' and come out of the fog? What is different now?

The fact that my wife has betrayed me and our vows for more than a year is the worst thing that has ever happened to me and I do not know how to forgive her on my own. If it were not for my Catholic faith, I would have moved on long ago. All I can picture is another man inside of my wife, can you understand how that makes me feel? I want to vomit and still the pictures in my mind are hard to banish. If you can understand the pain she has caused me, then you can understand the pain your husband has felt four times longer than I have.

If my ex wanted to come back, and, as I said, I have no indication that she does, I would have a heck of a time with the forgiveness part. And, again, I could not do it on my own, only with the help of God will I have the strength to forgive her.

The point is; is your husband a Christian? If you have said that he is then I have not been reading carefully enough. If he is and if you are, then that is your starting place...God.

If you can answer one question; Why should your H forgive you and take you back and in the same vein, why should I forgive my wife? At least you want to come home, my wife is happy with the OM. These are not facetious questions; can you give me ONE reason why the WS should be forgiven, for, if you can give a reason here, you will have one for yourself and your husband.

I really hope that you can get to go home again, you do deserve that and do not deserve to be punished for a mistake you made, for we have all made mistakes and do not wish to be punished for them. Just think about why you did what you did so that I may understand my own wife.

I will pray for your husband's heart to soften and be healed so that your family will be whole again.

God Bless you,
NMWBTWBD

<small>[ November 02, 2002, 12:33 AM: Message edited by: Not My Will, But Thy Will Be Done ]</small>

Good Day to all-
Thanks for your responses. Sometimes they're hard to read and think about, but that's how it should be.

JL- I have so wanted to touch my exH, especially the time I sat and talked with him for a few hours, back in September. Why don't I? I am afraid. I am afraid he'll push me away, or stiffen, or get angry. That's why I don't do it.
I'm scared it will make things worse, as he'll again feel pressure. (his words, pressure)

Yes, of course I realize how sad the statement is. I've thought of it often myself. He was left out for a long time, indeed.

I wasn't here when he picked up the boys tonight. I went ahead and sent him an email late this afternoon. I thanked him for the other evening, and I also once again talked about how much I needed him, wanted him, and what a mistake I'd made. I told him I understood his feelings, but that I still hoped that someday he could love me again. I told him I loved him, too. Frankly the whole thing still overwhelms me.

I don't know how to make him feel he isn't a 'fill in the blank', or second choice. I have told him so, but I don't know what to do. Sometimes I want to just 'show up' where he lives, unannounced, to talk. I am afraid so badly of more rejection from him. It is like going against a brick wall. (It's late now so I don't have much of a 'filter'--sorry if it seems 'ventish'. )

I see your point that if he pulls away, so what.(regarding the hug). I am just purely afraid.

I'd like to show him in actions how much I care, but it's hard when he just seems to want to be so far from me. Any concrete suggestions on what to do--in addition to a hug? Yes, I'd read and responded to Kily's post about the hug. It did affect both of them.

I suppose it seems like impulse, how I left my home and met OM in person the first time. I guess I didn't see it that way, the decision took me months to make. But yes, it was an impulse. My impulses made me mess up so badly. My impulse is to show up where exH lives, but I am terrified of more rejection. Maybe I should act on it, but I just don't know--he is so resistant.

You said,

"Why do people fear doing good things for people they care about, but seem to have less problem doing things they want but will hurt the people they care about? I think you need to think about this."

JL- I've thought about it over, and over, and over. The only answer I have is that perhaps many people, including me, often times are extremely self-centered. Isn't that the opposite of love? I certainly have thought of it, and as I've said before, I rather hate myself for my self centeredness.

I like your idea about having him over after Thanksgiving. Have to figure something out.

I agree, I need to rebuild him. I've said good things about him all along, and I will continue to do so. He just doesn't seem ready to believe me yet.

Sharon- Thanks for the good thoughts. I'd been looking for a posting on your thread. I'm glad you're feeling better personally , but sorry the R thing isn't better for now. Please do stay here on MB--even if you can't come as often. You've been very helpful, it's been wonderful.

Hello NMW- Thanks for responding, too. God bless you for wanting to work on your marriage. I'm sorry for what you've gone through.

As for your question about why it happened, the A, there are many factors. Mainly it happened because I was self-centered . I could list many excuses, reasons, etc--MLC--but the main reason was self-centeredness and extreme stupidity. I looked for OM for validation I felt I wasn't getting in my M. Did I get validation? No. What a bad, horrible decision I made. Instead of trying to save/improve the R with my H, I went outside of it and turned to OM.

I would NEVER inflict this sort of pain on anyone else or on me again. I often times feel like I've created my own sort of nightmarish h#ll, the way I feel inside.

First of all, I had a long distance 'internet' emotional A for about six months. Then it was long distance, with infrequent meetings. After meeting OM-about 20 months later I separated. I knew all along it was a mistake. By then, the M had really disintegrated. Of course H withdrew, even if he didn't know about the A--he certainly sensed all was not right. Right after exH found out about the A which was spring of 2001, I begged him for a chance again. He said, "NO". Part of me then felt , "See, he never did love you, he 's not even interested in you at all now." I know this sounds strange, but I am telling you how I felt inside.

After exOM moved local, I knew that the mistake was so huge, it was unreal. I didn't break up with him right away as I felt obligated that he'd moved all this way here. I was also trying to justify what I'd done, by staying with OM. I know it makes little sense. My thinking was very confused.

Thanks for explaining to me your pain, I don't know how a BS feels. Yes, my exH is a Christian, like me. I hope too in time that he will forgive me, but I just don't know.

Why should a BS forgive the spouse? Why should my H forgive me? Well, I think the reason is different for each person. To not forgive someone would seem to me like more torture on yourself. How does live with the bitterness, forever? Other reasons I can think of are the fact that we love people despite their mistakes, just as God loves us as we are, and on a practical level exH and I share children, a 29 year friendship, and a long marriage. Besides that, well--everyone has their own reasons. A BS here on MB could tell you more reasons than I could. (plus, it's late...and by now my brain is really tired)

Thanks for the encouragement, NMW. I know I deserve this consequence. Maybe in time he'll forgive me, but it will take a long time. I understand that. Thanks too for your prayers for his heart to soften. That's something I've been praying for, too.

Thanks again for your help and support,
H_P

Hi HP,

Glad to hear about that "little" event with XH. Baby steps.

I completely understand your fears. I have the same ones. My questions to you are:

Are you afraid that if you try, it will actually work?
What happens then?

Please forgive me for what I'm abou to write. I am going to sound so harsh. This is about me, but I feel like we are experiencing the same issues so I'm going to let it out. I'm sharing this because I want to get you to a place where you're uncomfortable so you will THINK about the things I'm describing. It is not in any way meant as a judgement to you.

You are in a mode where you have made a decision to completely change your life. Unfortunately several people were affected by this decision. At the time you made your choices, your based them on what you felt was the best approach for your issues. No one elses. Now that you've got this new life, you have learned many things about yourself. While growing, you have also learned many things about everyone around you. You see your husband, family, and relatives in a completely different light because you are now "open" to the things that you were running away from when you sought out your new life.

So where am I going with this.

Now that you've decided that it is possible to have a "new" relationship with your husband, you hesitate. Why? Is it because you are too scared to face life alone? Is it because you sincerely have learned that your former life was worth figthing for? Is it because you really dont know what it is you want?
You cry, and hold back your feelings out of fear. What are you afriad of? You felt rejection and loss from your partner when you sought out the A. Are you afraid that this will be the case if you return? Are you afraid that every negative thing you believe about yourself is so true that you don't deserve the love of your H and family?

This is causing you so much pain and is inhibiting your growth. You're allowing the situation to keep you stuck. Find the answer to these questions and then have the courage to start on the path that you want to be on. You deserve everything you want and more.

I think you need to stop being so chicken, leave the man some goodies when he comes over. Love him as much as you can regardless of what his reaction is! He WILL reject you, but the more you stay the course, the more he will be receptable to your actions. I'm not saying to make yourself a nusiance. If you are being to aggressive, he will tell you and you can back off. JL was completely right! Actions speak louder than words. Bake the man his favorite cake. Leave it on his doorstep with a note that says: Just thinking of you. Have that dinner. Do it a week before TG! This way you will create warm memories that he will have during his family dinner. Don't be afraid if he says no. Go home, cry, and post your feelings here. There will be plenty of other times where he will say yes.
Look at my Circus fiasco as a n example! I've already invited him out three times since in a very casual way. If he doesn't come, I no longer get upset. I go and have a good time. He asks me later how things went, and I share the details. The point is, he knows that he was my first choice and that he is wanted.

I'm still afraid to touch XBF, but I did it again on Halloween night! It wasn't well received because XBF was stiff as a board, but he didn't push me away or try to stop me either.

Start sending the man a card once a week, just to show him that he's in your thoughts. I've been sending emails periodically, and you know what.....I'm starting to receive them from XBF, unsolicited!

Picture what you want in your mind and GO FOR IT!

Sorry,
I was feeling very blue today and writing this helped pick me up. I really want to see you get what you desire because if you are successful that means that I can be too.

H-P,

I think Kily really asked some good questions. You really have nothing to lose by hugging him. Heck, you are not married to him, and cannot reject you further than is what is going on.

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree, I need to rebuild him. I've said good things about him all along, and I will continue to do so. He just doesn't seem ready to believe me yet. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How could he believe you since the only thing you have done is say words. You have taken no risks for him, you haven't hugged him in 3 years. When was the last time you kissed him?

He doesn't need words H_P he needs actions. Yup some of them will be rejected, but Kily is finding out if he shuts one door he is likely to open up another. By inviting her ex, she is telling where she is, who she is with, and yes telling him he is her first choice. The subtle thing is that it is giving them something to talk about. He is asking her about the outings he isn't on. He is starting to answer her emails. These are baby steps but things are now better than they were before, and a dialogue is opening. Will it lead to marriage? I don't know.

You need to examine something else as well. I was thinking about your situation last night and it occured to me something pretty obvious. Why do you want to get back together with him? You mentioned your history, you mentioned that you loved him, but you didn't mention how you were going his life better.

The point is this. Love is a verb. How are you going to love him? What are you going to offer him that is worth the risk that you will rip his heart out again? He doesn't know and you cannot even hug him.

H_P, I am not trying to depress you, but being around you is going to have to become something that he looks forward to and NEEDS. He can get conversation elsewhere. He has been on his own for years now. He has been neglected by you for almost 4 years. He can live without what you can offer apparently, BUT H_P he cannot love himself. He cannot give himself the contact between humans that Kily mentioned. He cannot take his face in his hands and look into his own eyes and comfort himself. He cannot tell himself a joke or share a memory with himself.

Do you know the one need that one spouse cannot have met while in a good marriage? Sex. It takes a partner. Now I am not suggesting that you run out and seduce him. I am suggesting that if you want him back, his life is going to have to be better than it is without you.

You can be fearful, and you can worry about pressuring him, but those worries cannot paralyze you. You can tell him what you think without pressuring him. You can handle his rejection, because he has certainly handled yours.

H_P, this will be a long slow process, and you are only 3-4 months post the OM leaving. If you want this man in your life, take a risk. You took bigger with your OM. Just reach out to this man and touch him, hug him, and do it whenever you are around him. Let him notice he is the ONLY one you do this with, let him feel you as a human being that you are.

H_P please thing about this. If what you are doing is to make him feel better, and show him your love you really can not go wrong. Oh you may make a few mistakes, but they will be mistakes of love and caring not rejection.

So hang in there.

God Bless,

JL

Thanks, Kily and JL for your responses. I was out of town a bit this weekend-family outing with daughter. Nice to come home and read your thoughts.

Kily,

You asked some good questions. No, I'm not afraid that if I try it will work. ( a hug, some sort of physical overture) I am afraid of being pushed away. I will try it, just the same. The kids are always around us--do I do it in front of them? You see my dilemna? They seem to hang close to us when we briefly see each other at 'the exchange' (as exH calls it)--I think the kids are protecting us, I don't know.

Kily, you're right about the decision I made, and how it brought everyone around me into new light.

I guess I don't feel I've hesitated to have a 'new' relationship with my exH. I am afraid of him rejecting me, again and again. He told me in August he doesn't like cards, or reminders, that it's all pressure and it makes him angry. I'm trying to respect this. I feel like I'm ready to burst with emotion, wanting to express it to him. I sent an email on Friday evening, it was probably too expressive. I never get a response. I talked with him today, about a 'kid' matter--and his tone was cold and detached. It is just very, very hard. I do my best to be 'up', chatty, and warm--and it is almost a 'flat' response.

I'm not scared about facing life alone, no. I love my exH and want to be with him again. I see what I've lost, I see how great he was, and I've told him this many times. I want to be able to show him my love again. That's all. I'm not scared that I'll face rejection and loss from my exH if he ever decides to return. The A was about a MLC, in my opinion. It was also about letting our love get sidetracked by kids, bills, and more importantly RARELY having time off together. It started up about 1.5 years after I lost a sibling in a tragic way...I think there was some depression there. The biggest reason--I was self-centered. I've learned, plain and simple. I really appreciate where you're coming from , they're great questions. You said,

"Are you afraid that every negative thing you believe about yourself is so true that you don't deserve the love of your H and family?"

I don't feel that way, but I'll think more about the question. I really don't have highly negative feelings about myself, except that I screwed up big time and was very self-centered in a horrible way.(that sounds like denial, I know!) Over all, I've been the kind my whole life that people look up to, the one people call on for advice,support, and laughter. People in my life would NEVER believe I committed adultery.

I will take your advice, and stop being so chicken. I will have my sons take the goodies on Weds, as I won't be home at that time to give them to him myself. Maybe I should instead take them there another evening. I will stay the course, as you said, and ignore his rejections. You're right, better to try, face the rejection--and return HERE to vent.

One thing, it sounds like your xBF is more communicative either way. My exH is so quiet, and he never asks anything about what I do. He is just totally disinterested, it seems.

Glad that you're touching xBF, and it's going okay. I guess the 'stiff as a board' hug thing scares me, but I need to lighten up about that.
I will, as you said, picture what I want in my mind and go for it. It will be hard, but I'll try.

Don't apologize for your letter, Kily. I appreciate your honesty very much. You're the best! I always appreciate directness in everyone around me!

JL-
Thanks for your response, too. You're right, how can he reject me more than a divorce?

Okay, I guess you're right. I need to be the one to make the move, and show him with my actions. I think I was, in fact, the first time we ever kissed--in 1979! I didn't have physical activity with exH after getting in PA with OM. Haven't kissed him in almost four years. ExH just accepted all of this, without much of a 'fight'.

I remember once, during the beginning of the EA, after a 'intimate' time with exH, exH said, "I don't care who you talk to on the internet, as long as I still get this." So you can see how that made me feel, like what I did didn't much matter to him. I'm sure he didn't mean it, but this is what he said. (Not saying this to justify my actions, just thinking back)

I will ask him out again soon--haven't done that since that time in late September. (Was it that long ago already?) Life is so busy, time flies very fast.

He may say 'yes'. I know I mentioned it here before, he did say "yes" last spring.(to a dinner out, movie) Then he changed his mind a few days later. So I guess it's possible that he could say 'yes' again.

I want to reconcile with him so that we can share love again, so that I can show him my love again. He is a wonderful man, and I really want and need him. Thanks, yes, I agree that love is a verb. I'd like to show him my love again, in many ways, but he pushes me away--calls it 'pressure'.

I think, JL, that deep down he KNOWS his life would be better with me. I just think he is too stubborn to admit it. He told me himself, many times...that he is so, so stubborn.

As I mentioned to Kily--I only see him around the kids. I don't know if that is the right thing to do (a hug in front of them, depending on his reaction) -they seem protective of the whole thing. Otherwise I can bring the 'goodies' there, (baked goods , wink , wink) and give him a hug of thanks.

You said,
"H_P please thing about this. If what you are doing is to make him feel better, and show him your love you really can not go wrong. Oh you may make a few mistakes, but they will be mistakes of love and caring not rejection."

Very good point, mistakes of love and caring--not rejection. Maybe he'll see it that way, too. I don't know.

Thanks again for your support, Kily and JL. It is deeply appreciated. Still have more 'job' stuff to attend to- must go.

God Bless,
H_P

H_P

I too understand the rejection thing. Even though H and I are living together, he is not sure he wants to spend Christmas with me. I offered to go to Germany to spend a few days with him, and he wasn't exactly forthcoming. "Oh I don't know," sort of attitude. So, I told him very nicely and politely that he was indeed entitled to his feelings, but equally, I was to mine, and may not offer again. Well, I think that got him thinking.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Anyway, I'm sorry, off the point a bit - but it hurts doesn't it? Sometimes it feels like there are only so many times that you want to set yourself up for a fall. Keep trying with those actions though.

The other thing I was thinking about. You said that your x-H felt pressured by cards etc. Do you communicate via e-mail at all? I remember you said he sent you a mail about Thanksgiving, is that right? What I've tried to do is let H have information about things that might be of interest to him, either because it might affect his work, or something about a hobby or interest. For example, last weekend, we had terrible weather in the UK, with very high winds. This had a knock on effect with train travel. H was travelling to the North East, so I just let him know that I heard news about how the trains were not running on time etc. and he should check it out. Also, H and I share an interest in Rugby League. I read something about his team, so I let him know what I'd seen.

OK, both of these things H knew about. The point is, it showed him, I was thinking about him and what may be of interest to him. Perhaps there would be things that you could communicate to your X-H?

As ever, I always think, I don't have a clue about anything, but this has worked quite well for me!!

Keep your chin up H_P, and wishing you well from London.

Lisa

Hi HP,
After reading the latest posts, I felt as if we were all beating up on you a little. I hope it worked! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I was thinking a little bit about your husband getting ANGRY at the cards and things that you have tried to send in the past. Also, you mentioned the no - reaction coldness. Girl, You need to go back and read my posts! XBF wanted me to completely dissappear less than two months ago. He didn't think we could ever be friends either.

You want him to get angry. This will eventually bring you guys back into the conflict stage. He's ANGRY because you are CHANGING the rules again and you are creating a situation where he has to start DEALING with you again. I'd be angry too, but if I received any kind of communication at all, I wouldn't throw it away. I would read it! You will NOT get an immediate reaction, but at some point you will start to receive feedback.

My recommendation for a place to start is to simply drop things off when he's not around. Perhaps a bag of cookies in his mailbox, or a simple gathering of flowers his doorstep. Simple things that let him know that you are thinking about him. You don't even need to attach a greeting or anything. He will know they are from you.

If you aren't there when he receives them, it gives him enough space to appreciate the sentiment. It also shows him that you care, and you are respecting his need for "space".

I have been doing this with breakfasts, and an occasional pizza or grinder. My next move, which I've shyly communicated to XBF is to prepare a pound of Bacon for him for breakfast and bringing it to the skating rink. This was something I did for him when we first dated, and I knew how much it affected him because he LOVES Bacon. Nobody ever did something like that for him before me, and I know it made him feel special.

Just food for thought.

One more thing,

The comment you raised about your husband stating that he didn't care who you were talking to on-line,

I think that he was telling you that at that time he knew it was a fantasy and I think he may have meant that he has you in the flesh and that was what mattered to him. I don't think he knew how serious that situation could turn out to be.

Just my 2cents.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Kily,

You asked some good questions. No, I'm not afraid that if I try it will work. ( a hug, some sort of physical overture) I am afraid of being pushed away. I will try it, just the same. The kids are always around us--do I do it in front of them? You see my dilemna? They seem to hang close to us when we briefly see each other at 'the exchange' (as exH calls it)--I think the kids are protecting us, I don't know.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">H_P, I think that is exactly where you should hug him. In front of the kids, YUP, right there. Don't make it too "mushy" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> but reach out to the man and give him a good hug. It seems to me your kids want to see you two together.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess I don't feel I've hesitated to have a 'new' relationship with my exH. I am afraid of him rejecting me, again and again. He told me in August he doesn't like cards, or reminders, that it's all pressure and it makes him angry. I'm trying to respect this.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Angry??? ALL RIGHT now we're talkin. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> So he does get angry? THat is sooo good to hear. I was very afraid he had passed that point into complete "indifference". H_P, he needs to get that anger out front where he and YOU can deal with it.

So the "pressure" isn't really pressure from you, it is pressure within himself to deal with this and it hurts him to do so, hence the anger. THis IS good news H_P. There are feelings there.

So my thought is put your arms around him and give him some "pressure". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I feel like I'm ready to burst with emotion, wanting to express it to him. I sent an email on Friday evening, it was probably too expressive. I never get a response. I talked with him today, about a 'kid' matter--and his tone was cold and detached. It is just very, very hard. I do my best to be 'up', chatty, and warm--and it is almost a 'flat' response.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course it is. He is protecting himself and he has no hope that things will get better. You, my dear, need to start providing some energy to this system. Even if it makes him angry. If he gets really angry, just smile. You will know that you still have the power to heal this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not scared about facing life alone, no. I love my exH and want to be with him again. I see what I've lost, I see how great he was, and I've told him this many times. I want to be able to show him my love again. That's all. I'm not scared that I'll face rejection and loss from my exH if he ever decides to return. The A was about a MLC, in my opinion. It was also about letting our love get sidetracked by kids, bills, and more importantly RARELY having time off together. It started up about 1.5 years after I lost a sibling in a tragic way...I think there was some depression there. The biggest reason--I was self-centered. I've learned, plain and simple.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Tell him this when he gets "angry" at you. Just tell him, yes yell it at him. ANd then send it too him in an email. With one last thing added, YOU need his help.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't feel that way, but I'll think more about the question. I really don't have highly negative feelings about myself, except that I screwed up big time and was very self-centered in a horrible way.(that sounds like denial, I know!) Over all, I've been the kind my whole life that people look up to, the one people call on for advice,support, and laughter. People in my life would NEVER believe I committed adultery.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I take from this that most people don't know why you two divorced. I am not recommending here, but let me offer you some thoughts.

Your H has problems, because you simply cut him out of your life. Just as if you took a family photo and carefully with an exacto knife removed him, and glued OM in his place. He was out of your life and OM was in. He sees that he lost the house (I think I recall that is the case), his W, his children (he is at best a part time Dad), and his future. You lost NOTHING. You got the man you wanted OM, you got the children, the house, probably support from him and as nearly as he could tell moved happily down the trail of life.

Now you don't want OM, so he has been cut out of the picture, and you want to replace OM with exH again. Your exH is probably feeling as if this is musical chairs. He doesn't see or know the price you have paid, because your role in this has been hidden. He is the one that looks like the loser and he is the loser.

Now having said all of this, do you see why he might be reluctant to come back. Do you see that perhaps he is going to need to see consequences or why he may have the desire to "punish" you, since you apparently got away with all of this without paying any price. You wanted rid of exH, he was gone. You wanted rid of OM, he is gone. You have gotten what you wanted.

I don't know how to suggest that you break this logjam of thinking, but I know it needs to be broken. I think that talking with a counselor might help to set up a plan. Right now my best suggestion is to "show" him you have changed and that is why I am focussed on the physical contact. It is not the only way, and ultimately may not be the best way, but it is ACTION. I firmly believe that ACTION is required on your part do to the length of this.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">One thing, it sounds like your xBF is more communicative either way. My exH is so quiet, and he never asks anything about what I do. He is just totally disinterested, it seems.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No! he is 4 years into protection mode. He doesn't dare to be interested or have hope.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">JL-

Okay, I guess you're right. I need to be the one to make the move, and show him with my actions. I think I was, in fact, the first time we ever kissed--in 1979! I didn't have physical activity with exH after getting in PA with OM. Haven't kissed him in almost four years. ExH just accepted all of this, without much of a 'fight'. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">May I ask you a question. How could he have fought you? Would you have been happy if he physically overpowered you? I doubt it, especially with OM. Kissing is a personal thing and he knew something was wrong and you wouldn't kiss him. How would him kissing you have changed your mind. At the risk of being blunt, you basically castrated him and his only recourse would have been physical violence. As I said to Kily: she has the power, and so did you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I remember once, during the beginning of the EA, after a 'intimate' time with exH, exH said, "I don't care who you talk to on the internet, as long as I still get this." So you can see how that made me feel, like what I did didn't much matter to him.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Woman??? What are we going to do with women? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
If you have been reading here long you will learn one very basic fact. Men, show love, connection, etc via sex. It is how we bond, it is how we show love. I realize it isn't how women do it, but it is how men do. Now if you accept my statement and revisit his comment I suspect you just might see this in a different light. He said (I am translating from the male dictionary here <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) "I don't care if you talk to someone on the internet as long as you still love me."

He meant love in its dual meanings: a verb and a feeling.

Now do you see why I am pushing the contact aspect of things. Men who have an emotional attachment to a woman, express and receive love via physical contact and sex. It is how we are. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will ask him out again soon--haven't done that since that time in late September. (Was it that long ago already?) Life is so busy, time flies very fast.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Before you do, put the "pressure" on him. You don't care what his reaction is. You just want one, plus you are showing him your feelings for him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I want to reconcile with him so that we can share love again, so that I can show him my love again. He is a wonderful man, and I really want and need him. Thanks, yes, I agree that love is a verb. I'd like to show him my love again, in many ways, but he pushes me away--calls it 'pressure'. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">H_P you have the right idea. You need to keep saying and showing him this. As for the "pressure" keep it up, the walls need to come down. Just be ready for the anger, it needs to get out, but as it does, your love will seep in. As I said earlier, when he gets angry, just smile because you know you are making progress.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think, JL, that deep down he KNOWS his life would be better with me. I just think he is too stubborn to admit it. He told me himself, many times...that he is so, so stubborn. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Stubborn/afraid which ever it is something that can be overcome.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You said,
"H_P please thing about this. If what you are doing is to make him feel better, and show him your love you really can not go wrong. Oh you may make a few mistakes, but they will be mistakes of love and caring not rejection."

Very good point, mistakes of love and caring--not rejection. Maybe he'll see it that way, too. I don't know. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Trying to do the right thing has it's own rewards no matter the outcome of the effort H-P. Go for it, but also give it time. As I said earlier, hugging or kissing him in front of the kids is a GOOD thing. Telling you what you think of him in front of the kids is a good thing. It is all part of the rebuilding.

God Bless,

JL

Hello everyone,
Thanks Lisa, Kily, and JL for your responses. I am sorry I couldn't respond sooner. Had trouble with the internet last night and this morning!

Lisa,
Thanks for your empathy and suggestion of email communication. It is something I will do from time to time, good idea. Great idea too on sending him INFO on things that interest him. Will do!

Kily,
Thanks for the input, too. I didn't see it as you 'beating me up'. Not at all.

I guess you and JL are right, the anger is good. I just am trying to protect him, too, from the anger. I see though that it is a necessary part of the process.

I am going to bake him his fav baked goods later on today. I can't drop them in his mailbox, so that presents a problem. Afraid too to just leave them where he lives, someone might take them!(It's a long day from 7 am in an apt complex til 430 pm) So, I think I'll just have my sons take them over, this time. I WILL enclose a little note, that I made them for him---in appreciation for all of his help and caring. Does that sound okay? I will remind him too that his mom told me they were his favorite kind as a boy, too---maybe that is too much to say? (mom is now deceased) You see, I dont know WHAT to do with this man anymore. I've never been the type to second guess my every word, and here I am!

You said,
"If you aren't there when he receives them, it gives him enough space to appreciate the sentiment. It also shows him that you care, and you are respecting his need for "space". "

Good point. I won't be here tomorrow when our sons take the cookies over there. What do you think of the boys taking them?

Thanks, too , for your perspective on the comment he made on the internet thing. Good point, he never knew how far this whole thing could go.

JL- You sure gave me a lot to think about. Okay, I see your point about the hug in front of the kids. I will do it, will seem VERY odd at first, for sure.

Yes, he gets real angry toned with me. The night I went over there in late September he got super angry when I mentioned MB. He said, "See, there you go, always trying to FIX me.Always suggesting some darn book. Why can't you take me the way I am?"

He does act somewhat indifferent at times, but I think he still does show anger. I feel he does have feelings still, indeed. He is just afraid of the whole mess I've made.

YEs, I do see why he's reluctant to return to me. I have gotten all I've wanted, basically. You're right. But now I know..that this ISN"T what I wanted, at all.

How can I show him the consequences of what I've done, and the price I've paid, anymore than I have? I've cried and sobbed in front of him many times in the last 18 months. I've told him, and he's seen, how MY relatives haven't invited me over in years, but they've invited him over a dozen times. I think my face alone shows the anguish and pain I'm in a lot of the time. What do I need to do, to show him how badly I feel? I've told him, and I mean it, that life has lost its meaning to me, since I've lost him. What more can a person say, or do?

I agree that I need to show ACTION. My instincts tell me to just show up there,without calling, and hug him, and try that way. But that sounds so 'soap opera' to me, and I think he will push me away, in the end. JL, as a man, do you think that just 'showing up'(no call, no purpose) and hugging him is the way to go? This question sounds so dumb, so crazy! I don't know how to be "ME".

I'd never even gone to his apartment at all, until late September.

Thanks, for the reminder on how men view se#/love. I tend to forget it, I guess. I totally misread what he said to me that day, long ago. You're so very right.

I feel that you three gave me such very good answers, and I haven't responded very well tonight. Please forgive me, I feel overwhelmed about all of this at this moment. Thanks for your thoughts and ideas. For now I will bake this stuff, and send it with sons.

I really want to be near him, physically, and hug him. I guess I need to do it, and tell him how much I miss him. I'll not worry about the rejection.

Take care,
H_P

H_P

Am sooooo glad I gave you a helpful suggestion - I usually think I know nothing about anything anymore!!!

As for the cookies, why not a very simple note along the lines of "I know how you like these, so thought I'd make some to say thanks for your help on XX"

I have found it very hard to express words of love and care to my H because after D-day, he virtually said "Don't say that to me when you don't mean it". So instead, I try the "I thought you may like" approach or "I thought this may be of interest". I think it conveys the same message "I'm thinking of you, and doing something for your that you will like, and by doing that am showing you I care".

I think your X-H has made it clear that he finds it uncomfortable with talk of R and love, so your actions will be saying that in a non threating manner anyway.

Sending you good wishes from rainy London today (and boy is it wet JL!!).

Lisa

H_P

Just wanted you to know I'm thinking of you. I hope things are going well. I really don't have any advice sounds like you are doing your best. I would be careful about making your H think you are trying to 'fix' him. I think my H thinks I am trying to do that too, not so much now but in the beginning and I think he rebelled against it. He doesn't like to be told what to do or how to do it. I think it made him think I didn't think he could make a decision on his own. I guess he has the freedom to chose not to reconcile, just as I have the freedom to chose to try. I told him once when he said he didn't want to give me any hope that hope is something I choose to have and he can't take it away from me anymore than I can give it to him

Take care. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Think of good thoughts today. Remember some happy times and don't let the present cloud them.

Hugs and love,

Sharon

HP,

Here's a thousand HUGS for you! I know how hard it is to see the bright side from the place you're at right now. I spend time there too! Just remember that WE love you. You are not alone.

One thing I want to point out, you wrote:

Yes, he gets real angry toned with me. The night I went over there in late September he got super angry when I mentioned MB. He said, "See, there you go, always trying to FIX me.Always suggesting some darn book. Why can't you take me the way I am?"

He is telling you right here that he is AFRAID and the reason why! This man STILL loves you. He doesn't think that he is capable of meeting your needs and his ANGER is the protection thing again. Instead of suggesting that he come to this site, simply tell him about the people here, and their stories. That's what I do. Eventually, the curiousity will get the better of him and he will pop in to see what you are up to. Or he may ask: How's so and so doing?

He needs to feel that he is not being pressured. He needs to see that it's okay for him to be hisself.

Next you wrote:
How can I show him the consequences of what I've done, and the price I've paid, anymore than I have? I've cried and sobbed in front of him many times in the last 18 months. I've told him, and he's seen, how MY relatives haven't invited me over in years, but they've invited him over a dozen times. I think my face alone shows the anguish and pain I'm in a lot of the time. What do I need to do, to show him how badly I feel? I've told him, and I mean it, that life has lost its meaning to me, since I've lost him. What more can a person say, or do?

Don't do this anymore! Tears bring guilt! He knows you're sincere. You're scaring him. You're sending him a message that says, take care of me. Instead, start acting as if you like your life. Share the fun details about you. Show him the real you, not the scared person that he has been seeing for the last few months. I think your wonderful! Be this person around him.

I have a few books I'd like to send you to read.
Email me: oceangirl06460@yahoo.com.

Hi H_P,

I think the cookies are a good idea- but only if you write a light hearted note such as was suggested by Lisa. I don't think heavy approaches will work.

I think one problem is impatience. You have come to a wonderful realization about your H, but you have to give him time to come to it himself. I think, given the time frame of your A, you have to prepare for a great deal of time, maybe a year, in order to work towards reconciliation.

Your H has not flat out said NO. I don't think he's ready to give you an answer about the relationship or not. That's why he resents any pressure from you to give him an answer. He knows your position- don't keep reiterating it to him.

But you can glean a little from what he's told you. He has said he doesn't want to be told by you to change (a la MB). He's basically saying, accept me as I am. That could be an issue- because you had the A in the first place because he wasn't meeting some of your needs. You need to look carefully at yourself, your motivations for wanting H back. Can you really accept him?

I see the Halloween thing as quite positive. See how he relaxed when he was just working on your computer? He had something to focus on, there was no pressure, and there was no R talk. You need more of these kind of interactions.

It would be very good if you could establish e-mail contact with him. Not for the purpose of R talk. For the purpose of conversation. Share an issue with the kids with him, ask him HIS opinion. Pick a topic that he likes- e-mail him some news relating to it. Ask him a home improvement question or a computer related question. Although, before using this strategy, you need to consider if he is comfortable writing or not. What are H's hobbies, what does he like to do? You've mentioned that he is quiet. What does he like to talk about? How is he as a parent?
Tell us more about your H.

One more thing- don't pressure him about Thanksgiving. He has been 2 of them alone, while you were with OM. Ok so now you're out of that R, you can't expect to just sit down at the family table. Expect to spend the day separately- but perhaps you can manufacture an excuse to drop by on that day depending on what he's doing. You could offer to drop off a pie that morning. Any invitations are up to him. I very much doubt he's ready to share Thanksgiving with you yet. Also there are issues of whether he will be with his family. It's way too early to think he include you in a holiday with his family present. Or even with the kids. It's sending a big message that he's not ready to send.

Try to see him that weekend if possible. Just to show him that you're around. Maybe something simple, like taking a walk together with the kids, or going shopping with your kids, or watching a football game on TV. Don't know if these ideas would be too pushy. What about a movie? Or even more computer repair?

H_P,

You are getting LOTS of ideas and I suspect you want to run out and try all of them on him. H_P this is more like fishing and we have been telling you about all of these lures: each guarenteed to bring in the big one. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

But, H_P, this is like fishing. You will have to go down to the stream and try each one. Somedays there will be no nibbles, others just a hint. So give each lure considerable time to work. Then try another lure and give it considerable time to work. To tempt those big ones out to try your lures will take a light touch, a lot of patiences, and some skill and cunning. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I would not go over there and just give him a hug. I would wait until he was around you for some purpose, picking up the kids,or doing something for you and when you thank him, just reach out and bring him to you.

As for his comment about you "always trying to fix him", I think that Kily and others are right. This is a crucial piece of data. He feels inferior to you and he feels you don't think much of him. Do you remember my comments about you building him up? Now you see what I am talking about.

Now my inclination would be to respond to him: "No I am not trying to fix you. I need your help in fixing ME." He needs to understand that if he does anything it is to help you.

As for how to show him? You really cannot until the barriers are down. Crying will actually push him away in my humble opinion (IMHO). Men are very susceptible to women and children crying, so if there are barriers up, it tends to drive them away. A smile, a sense of humor, a peck on the cheek, a pat on the back will do more for you.

He won't see many things in you until the barrier are down. He is aware of you, but his focus is really more on himself: defending, questioning, and protecting himself. He KNOWS you preferred another man and he KNOWS that you might find an even better man. He may even KNOWS that he isn't good enough for you.

This is the knowledge that you must gradually dispel and it is why you must be absolutely certain you want to reunite with him and can accept him for who and what he is. If he is quiet, sometimes be quiet around him, just sit and let the silence talk for you. Perhaps put your hand on his, but just let things be. That will say more to him than you can really imagine.

It is part of the fishing trips you are going on.

Must go.

God Bless,

JL