Thanks to all of you for your responses. Appreciate your input Lisa, Sharon, Kily, Espoir, and JL. It's wonderful to have your wisdom helping me sort things out.

I haven't posted in a few days as my schedule has been too crazy. I didn't get the cookies done yet, after I posted here on Tuesday I basically collapsed on the sofa. I will do them soon for him.

I did, however, take a risk and hug the man this week! It was on Wednesday, in fact. There was a very slight problem with one of the boys. I couldn't reach him by phone, our one son, and I was upset about it. I was at work, son at home. I did reach my ExH, and he helped me out. All was well, and it was simply a matter of the ringer being turned off on the phone. Anyway, when exH came over here to pick up the boys that afternoon, he walked in the door as usual, eyes downcast. I simply reached out and hugged him in our very small entryway area. He looked very surprised and for a split second I detected some great puzzlement--not hesitation, just complete shock. He didn't retreat or push me away, but he was a bit 'stiff'. It wasn't the hearty hug of days before, but I wouldn't expect it to be like that. He kind of did the pat thing, on my back. I only said, "Thanks for your help, I was very upset." It was a brief embrace, and I looked at his face as we retreated. His eyes looked very red, and they were downcast, not looking at me. He looked to be on the verge of tears. That's all that happened. It certainly made me feel better to be near him, but I have no idea what he was feeling besides strong emotion.

I haven't talked to him since, and I only left a phone message about a child 'exchange' arrangement.

He said something to me on the phone, while we were trying to 'locate' our son that I don't know if I should address or not. ExH was going to come here to look for our son, and he was to use a key that's hidden somewhere. He asked me if it was okay for him to go in my bedroom, and check phone messages. I said, "Sure, that's fine." I want to let him know that I have nothing to hide here, that all is open to him, and that I'm waiting for him, as I said I would. It seems to me that if he asked about the phone, then he still suspects OM or something else. I don't know, do you think I should bring this up to him, that he asked for permission to check my messages? I don't know whether to say anything or not, but it would make sense to do so.

Lisa, I like your idea about the cookie note being simple, and just addressing the fact that he likes them. Will do! I have three days off so I will have time to bake at some point. I like too your suggestion of "I thought you might like.." etc. Thanks again!

Sharon, thanks for your words. You said about your situation,

"I guess he has the freedom to cho0se not to reconcile, just as I have the freedom to choose to try. I told him once when he said he didn't want to give me any hope that hope is something I choose to have and he can't take it away from me anymore than I can give it to him."

I appreciate that very much. No one can take the hope away from me, either, just as I can't give it to him. You're right, too, my exH certainly doesn't like to be told what to do. I just have to let him make up his own mind, in time.

Kily,
Thanks for your hugs and good wishes, too.
I think that's a good suggestion to tell my ExH about some of the stories here, indeed. I will do that at some point, but it seems that for now he doesn't want to talk at all about any relationships. I could be wrong, but that's how he seems to me.

I think you are right too ,that he's afraid he'll never be able to meet my needs. He is wrong, but that is how he feels. I thought about what you said about tears. You're right, I suppose they do bring guilt. I will do my best not to cry. It's hard for me, I am not the strongest soul in the world when it comes to this situation. In my professional life, I wouldn't dream of crying there--but with people I LOVE, it's hard for me when I feel such strong feelings.

Thanks for the email address. I'll send you a note soon. You're very sweet and kind!

Espoir,
Thanks for replying, too. Yes, I agree with Lisa that a little lighthearted note is the way to go as far as the cookies are concerned.

You're right, too, I need to be more patient. I expect some sort of magical reconciliation, but it isn't going to happen that way. You're right, I need to wait this out a long time--probabably at least a year.

I hadn't thought about what you said, and Kily brought it up too---that his remarks about me wanting him to change were rather telling.
You said,

"He has said he doesn't want to be told by you to change (a la MB). He's basically saying, accept me as I am. That could be an issue- because you had the A in the first place because he wasn't meeting some of your needs. You need to look carefully at yourself, your motivations for wanting H back. Can you really accept him?"

I can accept him. I did for years and years, and I loved him and still do. The OM was completely different, it's true. Someone like me, who is a bit overly emotional and excitable, needs someone like my exH --a person who is more logical, calm, and clear headed. It was almost like a sick sort of joke . ExH was quiet, and that would bother me at times--OM never shut up, and in time I saw that he never said much of value anyway. ExH was calm, tranquil to be with--OM made me feel like a nervous wreck. Most of all, ExH is honest, hard working, and kind to everyone--OM was dishonest,a bit lazy, and rude to people all of the time. They were polar opposites! The other day a friend of mine said , "Do you ever wonder what in the world you were thinking?" Of course I do!

I like the idea too, Espoir, of asking him his opinion regarding the kids. I too can send him things on topics he likes, good idea. First of all, to answer your questions--no, he doesn't like to write much. He and I are 'opposites', there, too. As far as hobbies, he likes to watch certain sports teams play, and when he was young he liked the outdoors a lot. That changed during our marriage, we never seemed to find the time or money to do much that way. (his odd hours, our one income home) Basically our family was everything to both of us, and then I blew it! He doesn't go to church anymore, either. He likes to talk about technical type things--things in his job, and he likes to learn a lot about computers. As I think I said before here, he's the typical 'engineer' type of person. As a parent he is great, but he's not overly bossy with them. It's always been more or less my main job, as I was a stay at home mom for 17 years.

I like the idea on Thanksgiving of dropping off a pie. You're absolutely right, I need to be realistic. I'd like to ask him to go with the kids and me to some sort of family entertainment adventure over that weekend, but I don't know if he's ready for that. He wouldn't wish to come here and watch TV, (a game), that's for sure. Need to think about it.

I may need help with some computer stuff, so that is always a possibility. Thanks for the ideas, Espoir.

JL- I appreciate all of your help, too. You're right, this is like a fishing expedition. I really like what you said,

" To tempt those big ones out to try your lures will take a light touch, a lot of patience, and some skill and cunning."

How right you are--patience, I think, is the big key here.

You're correct, too. He always used to tell me he felt inferior to me. I would always assure him that it wasn't the case at all, but I know that the A made him feel even more inferior. He was always far superior to me, in every way, but he never believed me. The A certainly undid all of my words of admiration over the years, didn't it.

You're right, too--I need to let him know that I need to help me, that I need 'fixing' , not him. In late September at our 'talk' at his place, I told him that I would go to a counselor, and find out more about what happened, etc. At that point he said,"No, no, that isn't necessary." He maybe said that as again he realized eventually he would be asked into the equation. Not sure.

Yes, JL--Kily said it too--no more crying. You're right, he always hated it before, so I suppose he really does now. It's just hard, it isn't done as manipulation, but my emotions are just so strong.

I would love to sit and be silent with him. That is fine by me. First I need to even get in the situation where I am sitting with him at all. He always just comes in, if he comes in at all, and leaves with the kids. For example, last night the children just went out when he pulled up. I hugged my kids at the door, and didn't go out at all.

I am not trying to be funny here, JL--I never much liked fishing. Neither did he! I guess neither of us has the patience for it. I know that I don't. But at this point, I am forced to be a fisherman!

I feel I don't have the 'lures' that I did even five years ago. Guess I'll have to look for more meaningful ones.

Thanks for all of your help.

It's greatly appreciated and needed.
H_P

H_P,

Well, if you need to learn to fish you need to select what you are fishing for. If it is trout, there are books for that, if it is salmon there is a book for it, AND if you are fishing for a man, there is a book for that.

I am not a religious fanatic, but perhaps you could use a few lessons from the BEST fisher of men. That would be my suggestion. In that book you will learn about patience, the failings of man, and where you should be in your life.

From what you have described, I think you need to consider hugging your H again. I am sure he stiffened up, I am surprised he didn't pull away. HP, this man needs your touch that much is clear. If he starts to resist, then talk to him about it. Explain it is something YOU need, and that you like. It is something you want to give HIM. It is simply a gift to him, he isn't committed to anything.

I would also go out to say Hi to him when he comes to pick up the kids. Ask how he is doing, how the job is, what mutual friends might be doing. Not long but get him used to talking to you. Simply going to say HI! will have a powerful affect on him. You won't see it but it will. Lean in the car say bye to the kids, and then touch him and tell him to take care.

H_P there are so many little ways to tell him how you feel without saying a thing, and believe me he will pick them up. It may make him uncomfortable initially, but gradually he will relax some.

One never knows what life has in store for us, but perhaps you reading about the Fisher of Men is where you need to be. Perhaps, you are meant to get to some new place in your life and lead your H to his happiness. I don't know, but girl, show him you still love him. Don't let words substitute for actions, OK?

Must go. You are doing well.

God Bless,

JL

Hi H_P,

So glad you got up the nerve to hug him. Sounds to me like this man still has very deep feelings for you. You just need to give them time to resurface.

I read your post again and something HIT me about the MB and fixing thing. I think I would be resentful and act in a similar way if my H were to try to reconcile and suggested MB to me (if I didn't know what it was) Let me tell you why because I have a feeling this is the way your H might be feeling. I would feel like "What is HE suggesting this to ME for?" "I am not the one who had the affair, I was happy in the M till he had the A" "That was the problem."

You must remember H_P your H is not an MB H. He has never done what the majority of the BS's here have done. He hasn't probably properly worked out the part he took in you having an A. The BS's here realize that they have work to do. That the A wasn't all the WS fault. That is why they are so willing to work things out. In terms of dealing with the A the BS here are FAR ahead of where a normal BS would be. You have to take little baby steps with your H. Suggesting MB to him is probably like suggesting that a snail run the Boston Marathon. Yeah he'll make it but it will be slow going.

Give him time. He needs to be comfortable with the fact that YOU have changed before he is going to be ready to take a leap of faith and make some changes of his own.

Don't give up. Things seem to be going better. Take care and be happy.

I am thinking about u and praying 4u.

Sharon

H_P,

YOU GO GIRL! WAHOO.

I am so proud of you for taking 1 risk. I have more to say, but I'm at my OS father's house and I don't want to kkill his internet time.

Have a great weekend,

By the way, one thing that I found very amusing is that I no longer think of myself as "KIM" in my life. As I walk around and talk with people, I think of myself as KILY. She is the person that I have become through my growth, pain, and trials. Does this sound weird? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hi H_P,

Thanks for the concern for my H's Dad. He is a little better but don't know how long he will be in the hospital. It is really hard trying to figure out what to do, to take care of MIL. H's sister is the only other sibling and she works full time. I am starting a second job this week and my older kids work. We don't know how to take care of all that needs to be done.

Hope you had a good weekend. I appreciate all the help you have given me too. I really do feel like since I have been able to talk to you and understand the "other side" that things have gotten easier for me.

Next time my H is in town (Xmas??) I am going to follow your lead and HUG him. I have not been able to get up the courage for much the same reasons you were scared, so I have not hugged him since May. I don't care if he rejects me, I have NOTHING to lose anymore. I WANT him to know I love him. I don't think it is time yet to tell him again, but a hug might go a long way. If I get shot down at least I know I tried. Thanks for the inspiration. Take care. I will be thinking of you.

Your friend,

Sharon

Thanks everyone for your responses. I really appreciate it very much.

JL,
Thanks for the good suggestion about the 'good' book. Indeed, I do need to continually remind myself of patience, the failings of man, and where my focus needs to be. Great to have the reminder at this time!

You said,

" I think you need to consider hugging your H again. I am sure he stiffened up, I am surprised he didn't pull away. HP, this man needs your touch that much is clear. If he starts to resist, then talk to him about it. Explain it is something YOU need, and that you like. It is something you want to give HIM. It is simply a gift to him, he isn't committed to anything."

Good point, especially about the part that he isn't committing to anything. I think those would be good words for him to hear.

I still feel as if he hasn't moved on, so to speak--but on the other hand, to move back into a R with me-well, I think he'll feel defeated, in a way. For example, he still has many of his things here, in the garage- after two years. He still has a piece of my furniture at his place, an antique I inherited, that he could easily afford to replace. He also hasn't purchased a home, and he could afford that, too. It's like he is in a non-committal limboland. He hasn't dated yet either.

You're right, I need to go out and say 'hi' to him. IT's bothered me that he doesn't even pop in to say 'hi' to our daughter. She hasn't visited him on a weekend in months. They hadn't seen each other for over a week, yet he didn't come in to say hello to her. This bothers me immensesly. I suppose I should have said to her, 'Come, DD, let's go say hello to your dad."
On the other hand, now I recollect that her car wasn't here that day---perhaps he didn't know she was here. But she always is, at that time and on that day, or he certainly could have asked the boys. I feel horrible that they aren't closer. HE's hard to be close to, and I did tell him a month ago that I thought it would be good for him to see her during the week when she is at college, near his work. He did take her out a few evenings, but he hasn't now for quite a while. Does he equate her with me? I feel that a young woman needs a close R with her father, or she'll have a harder time connecting with a man. Maybe I'm wrong, but it still bothers me that he doesn't put out much effort with her. It's hit and miss--good for a while, then he 'forgets'.

I mentioned in the other post that he asked me if he could enter my bedroom, and check the answering machine messages. I said, "Sure, of course." Should I let him know that my life is an open book to him? His question led me to believe that he feels I still see someone, or keep in contact. In other words, why would I care if he listened to messages. Should I address this, or not?

Thanks, Sharon , for your reply. I will learn to be more patient, to allow his feelings to resurface.

I appreciate your point of view about how you would feel if your former WS mentioned MB. You are so right, and I hadn't thought it out more fully. Just as you said,

"You must remember H_P your H is not an MB H. He has never done what the majority of the BS's here have done. He hasn't probably properly worked out the part he took in you having an A. The BS's here realize that they have work to do. That the A wasn't all the WS fault. That is why they are so willing to work things out. In terms of dealing with the A the BS here are FAR ahead of where a normal BS would be."

Thanks for that, Sharon. Those words mean so much to me. I take complete responsibility for what happened, however. He did play a role, but I chose to do what I wanted, instead of working on the M.

Glad to hear that FIL is doing a bit better. Will you be starting a new job with many hours? It sounds like it's going to be very busy for you. I have a very hard time getting things done, I tend to be a perfectionist. I've had to let go of that, and let things get a bit below my standards. I started my career (at age 41!) a month before exH and I separated. So it's been two very hectic years. On the other hand, my job has been a blessing as I don't have time there to think about my woes.

Yes, do take that risk and hug your H in December. I'll never forget the look on my exH's face. It was a look of surprise, complete shock, but yet he didn't pull away. He certainly could have pushed me away, as JL said. I am sure that your H would love a hug from you, deep down. One thing that always bothered me about being with OM was that he never hugged me the way my exH did. It never felt caring, or loving. He had great energy/interest(bordering on obsession) in the SN department, but he never really 'hugged' me. It's hard to describe it, but I certainly remember feeling that way. It bothered me a LOT.

Kily,
I read your post last night . It was very late, so I didn't have a chance to respond. I will later on today, or this evening. It looks to be a busy day for me today! I just must say though, Kily, it really sounds like your XBF has deep feelings for you. The fact that he came over to your place after not finishing the conversation on the phone, that shows a lot to me. Will respond more later though .

Thanks for the congrats on taking a risk, and hugging him. The hug made me feel very happy, but I don't know how it made him feel.

That's interesting that you no longer think of yourself as your actual name in real life. We certainly do bare all here, and we do grow a lot through our 'names' here. I am sure many do use their 'real' names. I thought yours was Kily!

Today I am meeting some girlfriends for lunch. The last time I met up with one of them (friend of 19 years) , she really lambasted me for what I'd done in my life, the A, of course. It was a horrible thing, but I guess she had to clear her head. From my point of view it was like beating a dead horse, it was right after D was final--I was already down , down, on me. Other people in my life think I'm nuts to forgive her, but how can I expect my ExH to forgive me if I can't forgive a friend of 19 years for speaking her anger to me. She was horribly harsh, but at least she was HONEST.

Thanks for your help, everyone. I will be more patient--not a strong point for me. You've all taught me so much .

God bless,
H_P

H_P,

You said a few things I thought I would respond to.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I still feel as if he hasn't moved on, so to speak--but on the other hand, to move back into a R with me-well, I think he'll feel defeated, in a way.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">An interesting choice of words HP. He probably does feel defeated. He probably FEELS that if he had been a better H this would not have happened. He would be partially correct, BUT... You know the whole story he does not. He may need to hear it all to understand what happened. Not the nitty gritty details, but the timing and all.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> For example, he still has many of his things here, in the garage- after two years. He still has a piece of my furniture at his place, an antique I inherited, that he could easily afford to replace. He also hasn't purchased a home, and he could afford that, too. It's like he is in a non-committal limboland. He hasn't dated yet either.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Given what I glean from your description of his social skills, it will be a while before he starts to date. He sounds like a pretty introverted person and the events of the past four years have not added to his confidence. He cannot come back because he would be thought a fool, and he cannot leave because he still has feelings and fears.

You think you have it rough. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> How would you like to be in his place right now? If indeed he is in the place I describe.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You're right, I need to go out and say 'hi' to him. IT's bothered me that he doesn't even pop in to say 'hi' to our daughter.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">HP it isn't his house. He isn't going to pop into a house that isn't his. He was forced out of this house remember. He won't come back unless invited. And he shows exceptional sensitivity and awareness to ask you about the answering machine and stuff. He is respecting you and your house, this isn't a flaw, it is an attribute.

If you want him to come in and say hi! You need to invite him, he is a guest. Yes, even with your daughter there, he is a guest and won't enter. I wouldn't either. He really has no grounds to impose on your or your D so he doesn't.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She hasn't visited him on a weekend in months. They hadn't seen each other for over a week, yet he didn't come in to say hello to her. This bothers me immensesly. I suppose I should have said to her, 'Come, DD, let's go say hello to your dad."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes you should. But please remember he is also treating your D as an adult. Whether he wants to see her or not, my guess is that he won't impose on her. Partly that is the polite thing to do, and partly he is probably very worried that your D feels about him as you do/did. She is in college and really a woman now. I doubt he would impose on her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">On the other hand, now I recollect that her car wasn't here that day---perhaps he didn't know she was here. But she always is, at that time and on that day, or he certainly could have asked the boys. I feel horrible that they aren't closer. HE's hard to be close to, and I did tell him a month ago that I thought it would be good for him to see her during the week when she is at college, near his work. He did take her out a few evenings, but he hasn't now for quite a while. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, he probably feels she is busy in college and she will call him when she has free time. He probably suspects that she has other more intersting things to do than eat dinner with Dad. I have a D in college and I feel pretty much the same way. We wait for her to contact us if she has a problem. Or if she wants to come home.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Does he equate her with me? I feel that a young woman needs a close R with her father, or she'll have a harder time connecting with a man. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He may well equate her to you in some fashion. She is your daughter and is a woman. I also agree she should have a close relationship with her father, but SHE is going to have to seek it. There is another reason for that and it has to do with sex. Men, often have considerable uncertainty on how to treat a daughter that has become a woman. How much affection to show, what to do. If your H is as reticent in social situations as you say, I doubt that he feels real comfortable forcing (it will feel like forcing to him) the relationship with her. She will need to take the lead if she wants to see him.

My bet is that he will be overjoyed to see her ANY time she wants to see him. You may need to talk to your D about this, especially given the circumstances. This is one reason to consider telling your D what has happened, it will help her understand her Dad and his actions abit. Something to think about. Not very attractive to consider I admit, but she probably needs to understand.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe I'm wrong, but it still bothers me that he doesn't put out much effort with her. It's hit and miss--good for a while, then he 'forgets'.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Trust me on one thing: he doesn't FORGET. That is an excuse to cover what he is feeling and how uncertain he is.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I mentioned in the other post that he asked me if he could enter my bedroom, and check the answering machine messages. I said, "Sure, of course." Should I let him know that my life is an open book to him? His question led me to believe that he feels I still see someone, or keep in contact. In other words, why would I care if he listened to messages. Should I address this, or not? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He is reality talking. He can no more go into your house and listen to your answering machine than he could go to your neighbors house and listen to theirs. H_P, he is not related to you, he is not married to you, and he has NO legal standing to do this. He is absolutely correct. I doubt it is his fear that you are seeing someone. My guess is he feels you are and doesn't want to know about it.

But, remember while you don't feel it, he KNOWS your relationship with him is over,in every sense of the word. He has no business in your house doing anything and he knows it.

I think I need to add a few things here. I have been thinking of an analogy that would fit what I am about to say. I am not sure it is really correct but I hope you understand what I am about to say.

When you had your affair, it was as if you took the family picture and pasted over your H with a picture of the OM. You now loved the OM, you wanted him as part of the family, and you hoped (perhaps)that your children would come to like and love him as well. Your love was focused on OM.

Now when the affair came to an end, you peeled the picture of OM off of the family picture, and your H (now exH) was still there. Your love for him was intact, because you had simply buried it by pasting over him with the OM. You want that picture to be the real thing with exH back as H and the family together.

Nothing wrong with this thinking, except to your exH this isn't how it happened at all.

To him you took the family picture and with an exacto knife cut him out of the family. He has been faced with 4 years of rejection and being pushed out of the family. He has battled within himself to try and hang on, but you made sure he wasn't welcome. THe children being children (although teenagers) didn't offer Dad any encouragement to stay, they didn't know the situation and they were probably pretty self-centered as all teenagers are. So the message he got is: DEAL WITH IT and leave. No one, not you nor the children encouraged him to stay.

His love has probably been severely weakened because if it hadn't he couldn't have survived. But the toll is high, because he had to pull away from the children as well. You didn't intend to remove the children from his life, even with OM present, but you did put distance between them.

What makes this harder is that father's and son's often pull away from each other during the teenage years. So part of what you see is natural although exaggerated by his "leaving them".

You must remember H_P, that the teenage years are nature's way of telling the parents to boot the children out of the nest. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> It is true I swear it is.

So you are seeing many dynamics going on here. Some of it natural and some of it a consequence of your separation and divorce.

If you buy any part of what I have said, then you may understand why you must be the proactive one in establishing the ground rules. He is NOT going to enter your house without you asking him. Not even to see his children. He is not going to pursue your D at college, she will have to call and see him when it suits her. You will have to start a new relationship with him, because for him the old one is too horrible to go back to.

You didn't get to see what he went through because you were focused on yourself and OM,plus your children.

I hope you understand that I am not trying to be down on you, but I do hope you realize that you no longer have any relationship with your H as far as he is concerned. And it is true legally as well.

That is why I and others have asked you do you really want to be married to this man. It is a valid question because a whole NEW relationship will have to be built and he is pretty damaged.

Hope something I have said helps.

God Bless,

JL

Hi H_P,

Thanks for the toughts. My new job is just part-time to supplement my other part-time but I hope to work into full plus they have part-time benefits. Career?? not yet but I hope I'm moving in the right direction. I feel as if I am, life is getting better for me. H better come to his senses quick or this BS is going to MOVE ON for good. Just Kidding, I hope. I still want my M back. But with all the trouble with my FIL and my son has been ill, my H hasn't even contacted me. Except a couple of e-mails. NOTHING today even though he knew S was having a bad time. It makes me sad that he doesn't seem to want any contact with me, except if he absolutley has to or if he needs something. It hurts my feelings and I'm quite frankly tired of it. I am trying to support him and think of his feelings, he treats me like a casual aquaintance. It's almost too much to bare.

Sorry I got off on a vent its been a hard week and I was at hospital from 2-5 am last night with S (he's okay) bad allergic reaction to something.
I am running on Diet Coke today and 5 hrs. sleep. I hope everything is well with you. I will talk to you soon.

Take care,
Sharon

hopeful person. your story touches many on here judging from the responses. you come accross and a very good lady who turned down a wrong street and became lost. you seem fun loving, spontanous, warm. many qualilies that men would want in a wife. your husband, on the other hand , may be stolic, tacturn, steady and one to keep feelings supressed. opposites, and as you said maybe someone that was a stablizing force in your relationship. just learning gave you a lot of insightful advice. my observtions may just be the ramblings of a crazy relative, don't know. I know first hand of a situation similar to yours. its still unresolved. the ex wife in that case was too passive to help restore the relationship. if possible, try to see things through your husbands eyes and attempt to rectify things from what would help him. sometimes drastic measures are called for. the family home, he was forced out? how do you think he feels about that. him the innocent party losing it through no fault of his own? the comfort of familiar surroundings. could you put the ownership of the home back in his name? moving out yourself and telling him that you would be the one to live in an apartment. custody of the children. could you give that back to him. unilateraly. you pay child support instead of him. these are drastic steps I know, but it just could be that drastic steps are the only things which will work. many of us can understand his resentment even if he doesn voice it. I believe it would make a statement of earthquake proportions if you did those things. unanounced, just did them. his tools are there. his kids are there. the distance between him and his daughter? he may think she knows the entire score and has still chosen you as her closest parent even though your behavior broke up family. and her not seeking him out, spoiling him(men sometimes need this) can cause him to feel rejected, even though that is the fartherest thing from her mind. You mentioned that om is from another culture. what country , culture , that may cause ex hus to feel some resentment , even if he does not express it. is ex aware that this person's interest seemed mainly physical? if so that suggest to him that all he was to you in marriage was of no consequence, and that you went for a shallow relationship at his expense. those things can haunt an ex spouses mind daily. was om of european, middle eastern, asian african culture? maybe you can show ex hus. that you completely reject anything and all things that are in any way connected to that culture. if necessary, for his benifit and his values . show disrespect to the things that the om stood for. sounds childish I know, but as an example if you have a close friend who supports some football team , and you have no loyality to any team. support their team with them. it costs nothing and makes them feel better. its called mirroring anothers behavior. salesmanship is often where this is used. encourage your children to seek out their father and be as loving to him as possible. be honest with your daughter about what happened. let ex hus. know that you have told her that you were at fault. Im suggesting you throw it all on the line for him if you really want him back. drastic measures , I know, but sometimes that is all that will help. it will take courage to sign over house and custody I know. it will take a courageous lady to do this. somehow I believe you have that courage. strange as it seems your moving in with om, because he did move to where you lived. shows you have the courage of your convictions. not all of us have that. I know after reading this you may be thinking that person needs to go back to their group therapy session soon. did the om live with you in the family home? that may be a trigger for ex and also , he may not want the responsiblilty of the family and home, but if not then he can give it back IM sure. I hope for the best for you and family

Checkers,

WOW!

You took my breath away with your views. I felt as if you know HP and the situation first hand. All I can say is, thanks. You've goven ME a lot to chew on.

Thanks to all for your responses. It's been a busy few days, so I haven't had a chance to sit here and answer until now.

To update, so to speak. I did hand my exH a box of his favorite candies when he brought the boys home a few days ago. I walked out to the car, in the driveway, and he opened the passenger door. I guess so I wouldn't have to walk around to the front. But I just leaned in and handed him the candies. He looked happy, but shy about it, too.

That evening, he called me. It turned out that a mutual friend of ours' sibling was killed in an accident over the weekend. He'd heard the news via the phone, from his father. The victim and our friend live out of state, but it was telling to me that he called me right away. I've had no contact with the mutual friend in 2 1/2 years, it was more his friend, someone he grew up with in his home state. He then said he needed to go out and get some sympathy cards. I called a few minutes later, to ask one more questions about the accident, and he was already out buying them! I guess I should have invited myself along to get the cards, maybe that was his way of inviting me.

Tonight I picked up the boys after my work day and class. He actually said I should "Step in" to his apt. I don't remember that ever before. I usualy had to ask him, or just stand there in the doorway. I talked of some computer stuff, and nothing more.

I am just being patient, and loving as I can be. I still feel as if I'm in some sort of awful nightmare. I simply can't believe I messed up my life this way. I NEVER thought I'd do this, or be divorced. There you are...

I would like to invite him on a family outing to an amusement park. Don't know if it's a good idea, but it doesn't hurt to ask. It's something we always used to love to enjoy together.

JL -
Thanks again for all of your wisdom. You're right,I'm sure he does feel defeated. I keep telling him it was me, not him. That doesn't help though. I feel I have told him all of the story, but perhaps he wasn't ready to hear it.

How can I convince him he won't be thought of as a fool if he returns? That is the tough one. You are correct in saying:

"He cannot come back because he would be thought a fool, and he cannot leave because he still has feelings and fears."

I'm sure he's in a tough place. He always tells me, "IT's just so hard."

You're right, JL, this isn't his house. We do need to invite him in. Also, yes....he is sensitive--hence the answering machine question of his. I won't read any more into that question than I should.

Thanks for the ideas, thoughts, about my daughter and his connection with her. I did ask if she'd called him earlier this week, and thankfully she had. She knows how I feel about him, that I still care a lot about him and hope that he will someday feel love for me again. She knows too, that being involved with OM was the biggest mistake of my life. I don't think she knows the exact timeline, but she is no dummy. She knows that OM and I talked on the internet before separation, so she knows there was an inappropriate E connection/relationship, at the very least.

She truly disliked OM and the way he treated me. (He turned out to be very unreserved, inappropriate, annoying to my children. Good actor for a long time...) I would make excuses for him, etc. I realized though that I would NEVER want my daughter or any other person I cared about to date someone like him, so why in the world would I put up with it. All of my kids REJOICED when I stopped seeing OM.

You're right, my exH probably does think D is too busy to spend time with him. I think it's hard too as WE have a divorce, and a bit of an empty nest thing going on now.

Thanks, too , for the male perspective on R's with daughters. SHe will have to seek the relationship more with him. In that dept, she is a lot like her dad, and she seldom makes plans with anyone. She waits for others. So there you are. I'll continue to encourage her.

You're right, I'm not related to him legally. I still feel he is a part of me, and he always will be. But of course, he is correct in asking if he can go in the bedroom, etc.

Your analogy of the exacto knife/pasted picture was excellent. However , I must clarify. This will sound insane, but I never felt all of my love was only toward OM.(I am sure my exH didn't feel my love for him, I know that) I still felt I loved my exH, and I felt like the A was more of a self destructive path , drawn to it out of some horrible need. This sounds hokey, I know. This is how it felt. I'd think, "What are you doing, you are ruining your life." Off I'd go, despising myself the whole time for my reckless behavior.

Your analogy was so strikingly real. I'll never forget, when I ended it with OM. I know I've said this before here, maybe on a different thread. I started the EA in the summer, and ended the A in the summer. I broke up with OM over the phone, and then I literally fell on my knees and asked God for strength. I then began working around my house, to keep myself busy. I then thought, "Okay, that's done, the R with OM. Now when is my DH coming home." It was like I expected him to walk in , from work,arriving as he used to late at night. ISn't this crazy ? The love was there for him, buried...but I did feel it often the whole time. I did have a certain fear of OM, and breaking up with him-- can't explain it. It was all very crazy, indeed.

You said,

"He has battled within himself to try and hang on, but you made sure he wasn't welcome."

You're right. I did ask him to try again after he moved out, but it was too late by then, even 2 months after DDAy--it was too late.

True too, when you added,

"He is NOT going to enter your house without you asking him. Not even to see his children. He is not going to pursue your D at college, she will have to call and see him when it suits her. You will have to start a new relationship with him, because for him the old one is too horrible to go back to."

You're right. Absolutely. And yes, I do want to be married to him. He isn't the damaged one, I am. He does have 'damage', yes, sure...but he is an extremely loving person, and I took him for granted. I just need to be patient, and let him know I am still waiting for him, or that I'm available.

Thanks, JL, for your help. Sometimes it's hard to read what you say, but it's a good thing you say these things here! I appreciate your honesty!

HI SHaron,
Thanks for your reply, too. Please keep posting here, you have been very helpful. I will keep you in my prayers and thoughts.

Checkers,
Thanks for your post, too. It was kind of you to take the time to read the thread and respond.

I appreciate your advice. It looks like you really see me and my exH for who we are! I do try to see things through his eyes, my exH"s eyes. Your suggestion for putting the home back in his name is a good one. I must add though, that our 'split' as far as the divorce was concerned was very even. There were many financial pieces that he kept, that I got none of. I know what you mean though, about him leaving the familiarity of the home. You're right. He left over two years ago, and I do know he's glad not to have the upkeep. He's told me that much. (it's pretty old, the house) He has said though many times that he wants me to have the house, and the kids to be with me. I was a SAHM for years, and this is how it works out best for all of us.

I did offer him a chance to return to school, full time, and I would support him--as he did me, for years. He wasn't interested. As far as support, I didn't get spousal support. I do get child support until the youngest is 18. Even though I stayed home for years, I make 'too much' to get spousal support, even though he makes about 30% or more than I do.

It's funny, Checkers-- a side note. He and I NEVER once fought over money in our marriage. Never. It just was never an issue, we're very similiar in that area.

Back a bit now, as far as child custody. He is fine with things the way they are now. The kids are older, and he couldn't transport them to and fro school and activities the way I can.(my job hours are better, he commutes a long way to work) IN that way, it wouldn't make much sense for them to live there full time. Furthermore, my children are happy this way, living in the home they've been in for years and years. Please don't think I am disrespecting your opinion, but it just wouldn't work to do what you're respectfully suggesting. Knowing my exH , financial/home/childcare arrangements--a change in those won't change how he feels. I do see your point, though. I will think on it more, yes.

I have told exH that the R was a big waste of time, shallow, etc. He just doesn't wish to hear much now. I have 'gotten rid' of all the music I had from that particular culture. This was something I collected long before OM. On the other hand, my career requires I have some contact with this culture, or let's say an 'offshoot' of his culture. I speak the language of this culture, fluently, (through lots of hard work on my part, not to sound egotistical) and I live in an area where this culture is quite prevalent. I have thought of your suggestions before, indeed- about the culture. Thus I got rid of all the CD's I had here, and much art stuff from that culture, too. I must say though, I had knowledge about and I spoke this culture's language LONG BEFORE OM. It's been a part of me for 23+ years, back to college. I don't think exH associates the culture too much with OM, as I was a 'student' of it before OM, but I could be wrong.

I have told the children that the marriage falling apart was my fault, they know that. I didn't get into nitty gritty details, but they are all intelligent. They know I had a R with OM via computer before separation. I don't feel I need to lay down all of the details on the table for them. I don't see the purpose it would serve at this point, but I respect your opinion.

OM did move to this area, but I never lived with him. No, no. I simply wouldn't do that to my children, nor to myself. OM would have gladly moved in here, I'm sure. But I just feel that marriage is needed before living together. I guess I'm old fashioned.(believe it, or not!) Not to judge those who do live together, this is just my opinion. Although if my exH wanted to move back tomorrow, I'd say , "Please do." I guess I see that differently. I still feel married to him, in my heart. That sounds corny, but that is how I feel.

Your suggestion to give back the house is interesting. I promise you, Checkers, to think hard about what you've said. Thanks for taking time to respond, and for making me think . God bless you!

Thanks, Kily, for your reply too. You have been a great source of comfort to me.

This is very long and rambling, and I have a report to write for work. Wish there were more hours in a day.
God Bless,
H_P

H_P,

I don't have much time today, but one paragraph sort of struck a cord with me and brought forward some thoughts. Before, I start let me apologize if what I write is hurting you. It is NOT my intention to hurt you in any way. Sometimes I don't phrase things a gently as perhaps I should. I am sorry to have hurt you. Please accept my apology.

Now back to this thought before it leaves my brain.

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Your analogy of the exacto knife/pasted picture was excellent. However , I must clarify. This will sound insane, but I never felt all of my love was only toward OM.(I am sure my exH didn't feel my love for him, I know that) I still felt I loved my exH, and I felt like the A was more of a self destructive path , drawn to it out of some horrible need. This sounds hokey, I know. This is how it felt. I'd think, "What are you doing, you are ruining your life." Off I'd go, despising myself the whole time for my reckless behavior.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My first gut response to this is: tell your H this, he needs to hear it. That may be the correct response I don't know. I suspect he would feel that you are just bandaging this situation, but I believe what you say.

Were you by any chance depressed during this time? It sure sounds like the actions of someone very depressed. Knowing what is write and even what they want to do, but somehow "enjoying" the pain of doing something wrong.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your analogy was so strikingly real. I'll never forget, when I ended it with OM. I know I've said this before here, maybe on a different thread. I started the EA in the summer, and ended the A in the summer. I broke up with OM over the phone, and then I literally fell on my knees and asked God for strength. I then began working around my house, to keep myself busy. I then thought, "Okay, that's done, the R with OM. Now when is my DH coming home." It was like I expected him to walk in , from work,arriving as he used to late at night. ISn't this crazy ? The love was there for him, buried...but I did feel it often the whole time. I did have a certain fear of OM, and breaking up with him-- can't explain it. It was all very crazy, indeed. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Interesting, this paragraph is. (Too many Starwars movies going on here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

I suspect your H knows this or feels it. In a very deep way you took him for granted and hence subliminally expected him to come back to fill the void. If he does suspect this or feel this, then it sort of explains his responses to you and the fact that he wanted the divorce to proceed although you were willing to discuss ending it. OM wasn't out of the picture, but perhaps more importantly you weren't ready to face that you had taken exH for granted.

Frankly, I think him asking you "in" is good news. You need to be conscious that you do the same. It shows that you DON'T take him for granted, that you respect the he respects you. It may be the way to start that NEW relationship. Keep up the good work, and keep up touching him or hugging him when you can.

Do invite him, if you want, but have no expectations. Expectations are just resentments waiting to bloom.

Must go. I will talk with you further. Also, think abit about what ???? (I apologize I cannot remember the posters name) said about giving H back the house. I don't think that would work for the reasons you stated, BUT the thought process that would lead to that action is important to consider.

I think it will get you seeing your exH differently, and perhaps allow you to do something for him that he doesn't expect but would mean something to him. It doesn't have to be a GRAND jesture such as giving him back the house, but something that is meaningful to exH.

Don't miss an opportunity to ask if he would like you to join him doing something such as the sympathy cards. I doubt he will ask, but if he mentioned it to you the door has been opened for further discussion. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

It seems to me this isn't over, too many hints, too many small things. He just doesn't know how to get back and still keep his self-esteem. His family and probably friends would think him nuts to come back. Well maybe not all but most. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

God Bless,

JL

hi again hopeful one. you do come accross as a sweet warm person. also, your values regarding not living together unless married are to be admired. I don't think that compliment is too far out even in light of your having lost your way for some months. my suggestions regarding returning house, giving over custody were not ones that I thought would be carried out, but were more in the nature of good faith, showing ex hus. of your willingness to sacrifice as a pentenance for your behavior. I read of you saying you sometimes screamed aloud while driving. I think deep down you were trying to wake up from your nightmare. aptly titled thread name I must say. this ,to me, indicates the pain you must have been experiencing. my heart goes out to you. your connection with the culture going back some time, obviously provided the impetuous for the connection with the om. what caused you to learn the language and attach yourself to this culure. you also, mentioned getting rid of the music. I wondered if it was ragae. not sure is that is correct spelling. this is a music that I love. have a lot of bob marley stuff. it would be hard for me to throw that away. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> the idea of disrespecting the culture was simply a way to validate you husband who I assume is european or of english descent. a way or alineing yourself with him and his background. while he may not express much of an opinion regarding this culture , I still feel that in any way you can find to show him a realignment of who you are would help him to rebuild himself. would it be possible to change careers for yourself. suggest moving to a different part of the county. assuming you live in u.s. or even england. something about a fresh start geographically often brings about new attitudes. ex hus. just might be more inclined to rejoin you in a new location. sometimes people can transfer. it may be a time for you to take a good look at just how badly you want to have an intact family again and just how far you are willing to go to get it. this reply is a bit jumbled and perhaps all over the place, but one other thing I recall from reading you posting was that you asked him to try to restore the marriage after couple months of seperation? I gather he was trying before restoration? would it have not been more condusive to have asked him, at that time to allow you to attempt to repair the damage? maybe in the form of what can I do that would help you to accept me again? the suggestions for making certain that children know the complete story would remove any misgivings they may have regarding their father and, also to let him know that they now know the full story. they may then become very close to him. and that could only help draw the family together. there is some risk that they may reject you for a while , but in the long term that will pass. after all you are their mother and that is the one relationship that will endure based on my experience. the disrespecting the culture, that is not meant to be a public display of attitude, but more private between him and you. and if the music you tossed was ragae it pains me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> God bless you.

Hi H_P,

You are getting such good advice and counsel from JL. I just want you to know I am following your story. Things sound like they are getting better. Maybe the ice is starting to melt.

I think you should invite your H. But like JL said, no expectations. Just approach it is a fun time with your kids. If he says yes YEAH. If he says no. TRY TRY AGAIN.

I don't think you are in a losing battle here. I think you just need to be consistent and show your H that he will not be a fool to return. I know that A LOT of people think I am CRAZY to want my H back. So your H may be getting some of these vibes from people. He will need to work through that though. You have a lot going for you H_P you know the MB secrets. I think this is very IMPORTANT. You have a plan, you know what you want. You are NOT that person who went down the path to destruction anymore. You are on your way back. I really could relate to the feelings you said you were having during the A. My H, when he would talk to me, expressed some of the same sentiment. It just makes me ache for him that he may be feeling the same still and not know that all he has to do is say the word and I would do everything I could to help him back.

Take care. I think and pray for you too. Have a happy weekend.

Your Friend,

Sharon

Hi HP,
So much has happened to you. It all seems so subtle, but it is a BIG step in a new direction.

In reading the following passage, you put so many of my own thoughts into words:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your analogy was so strikingly real. I'll never forget, when I ended it with OM. I know I've said this before here, maybe on a different thread. I started the EA in the summer, and ended the A in the summer. I broke up with OM over the phone, and then I literally fell on my knees and asked God for strength. I then began working around my house, to keep myself busy. I then thought, "Okay, that's done, the R with OM. Now when is my DH coming home." It was like I expected him to walk in , from work,arriving as he used to late at night. ISn't this crazy ? The love was there for him, buried...but I did feel it often the whole time. I did have a certain fear of OM, and breaking up with him-- can't explain it. It was all very crazy, indeed.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I always had thie same insane notion that XBF would be there, and I would just be able to go back home and pick up the pieces. How foolish and selfish this was. Honestly, as much as it hurts to know that he has found someone new, I honestly can't blame him. I am STILL in shock that I've caused this much devastation. I STILL can't believe that he doesn't love me anymore. The inner child in me STILL believes that I will get a phone call in the middle of the night that says: "Come home, as ANGRY as I am, I know this is worth fixing." I have to let this go.

I also had the fear of ending the relationship with OP. I think that the hardest thing to face was that I felt responsible for HURTING this man. I felt like I was going to destroy HIS world because I was finally ready to stop running away. I cared more about HURTING him than HEALING me and my family.

My point in sharing this is that I think all of us WS's feel these things. Yes, it's crazy, but it's a part of the process. The fact that we recognize what happened and learn from it is what is important NOW.

I think things will turn around for you, but it will be a LONG uphill battle. I'm glad to see some progress.

With Love,

hi H-P
didn't see your thread for a few days, I don't know why- and now I have alot of reading to catch up on. But quickly- I think your H asked you about the message machine 1) just as a matter of courtesy, after all you are divorced and it is your machine and 2) for self protection- giving you the opportunity to warn him away if there would be anything on there that would disturb him.
Your response was perfect. I don't know that I would bring it up again in a "heavy" way as that would constitute R talk. But if there ever is another opportunity for him to check your messages, of course it's good to offer it. You could jokingly say- oh you can check my messages anytime! but don't bring it up in heavy R talk- I think it's too soon.

Hi H_P,

I was reading Kily's response and something really hit a chord with me. The not wanting to hurt the OP. My H mentioned way back that he felt "bad" about promising OW things that he wouldn't go through with if we reconciled. What is that all about? It seems so weird to me that he places so much importance on promises to her, and not wanting to lead her on. Kind of the attitude that she did this and that for me I owe her something.

This really bothered me and I don't understand it at all. He promised me too. I did things for him and made plans with him too. How does that become overshadowed by things with someone he barely knows.

Maybe one or both of you could give me some insight. I think that this is one of the most hurtful things I have dealt with. And as I said I never have been able to understand it or make it seem right in my head. What changes your priorities so much? Did you also both feel that you somehow OWED the OP something for getting involved with you? This is kind of the impression I get from my H. That he owes her. He doesn't however feel he owes me even a chance.

Sorry to ramble. Hope you can understand what I'm trying to say. Even though I don't quite know how to tell you the question. Do you understand what I'm talking about?

The reason I ask is as I said I really had a hard time with this, and it was very demoralizing. Like I didn't matter.

Anyway, I appreciate you both and your insight. Hope you are both doing well.

Sharon

Hi Sharon.

You asked:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Maybe one or both of you could give me some insight. I think that this is one of the most hurtful things I have dealt with. And as I said I never have been able to understand it or make it seem right in my head. What changes your priorities so much? Did you also both feel that you somehow OWED the OP something for getting involved with you? This is kind of the impression I get from my H. That he owes her. He doesn't however feel he owes me even a chance.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will do my best to offer you some insight here.

When I started my EA/PA these were my thoughts:

I was completetly lost and feeling very empty inside. The OP seemed like he was salvation to me. I felt that I owed him EVERYTHING because he cared SO much when my XBF just constantly criticized and condemed me. He was my rescuer. When I finally faced what I was running from, I felt VERY GUILTY for bringing an "innocent" person into my problems. I felt that leaving him after he picked me up and made me whole was a complete betrayal of teh "bond" that we had.

The priorities change because you are no longer dealing with your "real" emotions. I think what happens is that the WP forms a wall of denial that they live behind. There is so much anger, hurt, fear, and pain that the old relationship has brought to them that they simply BURY that entire part of their life. I think it's called compartmentalizing. (Un)Fortunately, these feelings can not remain suppressed and will find their way out. Sometimes it will be seen as Hostility towards the BS, Complete shut off of emotions around BS, Depression, Health Issues, etc.

I hope this helped you.

Thanks Kily,

I appreciate the response. One ? however. Did the OM really make you WHOLE as you stated? I would feel awful if the OW made my H whole. If she does why would he ever want me back?

Thanks again,

Sharon

Hello dear MB friends,

Time goes by far too fast, my life is far too busy right now. My job is very demanding, and it seems that all I do is work and then bring more work home. Hopefully it will get better soon.

Thanks so much for your responses. It is wonderful that so many people care enough to read here , and respond.

Not much of an update since three days ago. Friday evening ExH picked up the boys, and he came to the door. He barely looked up at all, no eye contact with me whatsoever. I said, "How was your week?" The response was only a terse, "Fine." It really looks so very hopeless.

Yesterday I had a call from a friend with whom I hadn't spoken in over five years. (no problem, she had just moved away) She had run into exH at the mall a year ago, so she did know of the separation. ExH hadn't told me he ran into these mutual friends. Anyway, talking with her kind of 'set me off' into an emotional state of mind. She and her H were always very much in love. She had wonderful news of her family, so I was partially in tears out of joy. She also encouraged me to think hard about my life, and the R with exH. She knew me first 12 years ago, and she knew we had some problems then. I guess though I feel that the problems we had could have been worked out. In fact, I'm sure of it. She even said that maybe exH WANTED the D, and the ignoring of some of the stuff I was doing was his way of getting out, in a passive manner. I then mentioned that exH said he LIKED living alone. She said, "I can't imagine feeling that way , but I can picture XXXX feeling that way." AS families her family and mine used to camp together, spend many hours together. Well, this did get me thinking, but I still feel I want to reconcile with my ExH. MAybe this makes me nuts, but that's how I see it. I love him, and that's the main reason I feel as I do--secondly due to our children and all of our years as 'best friends' together. He and I did have problems, but all couples do. We always managed to work them out,and we could have if I hadn't gotten involved with OM on computer.

This conversation was followed by one with my mother, via telephone. She informed me that a distant relative of mine had reconciled with her ExH. This lady, my distant cousin, left her second husband(and she's still in her twenties) and moved RIGHT in with OM. Their divorce was final long before mine was final, about a year ago. I believe they separated right about when I did, two years ago. Anyway, she moved right out of OM's place a week ago, and immediately her ExH took her back. At this point, they aren't yet living together again, but they are a 'couple'. I burst into sobbing tears, of course. They were married only two years when they separated, and have no children. Yet this man took her right back. My mom couldn't figure out why this set me off, to tears immediately. I'm sure all of you do. I had to explain it to her. (You can imagine it's been difficult, having such insensitivity in a mother.) Anyway, just had to share that here. It's SO HARD when other BS's forgive, and yours is so unwilling to even try. This distant relative's Great Grandfather dines with my exH regularly. He can't figure out why my exH wants to be alone, and he knows the whole story. Anyway, he told my mother, "I'll have to tell XXXXX, maybe this will get him thinking more of a reconciliation with H_P" I simply told my mom, "I highly doubt it."

Thanks for listening to the vent. Please don't see me as a basketcase, crying constantly. I'm not, it's just that enough is enough at times. I manage to hold it together 90 percent of the time. It's the only way I can function.

JL-
Thanks for the apology. It's not necessary, you haven't hurt me. I appreciate your honesty, and in my circumstance I need to hear the bold truth.Sometimes the truth is hurtful, but I know it's unintentional.

You're right, I was depressed. It was not that long after one of my siblings (severely depressed) had taken his own life that all of this started. (2 years) I was depressed about my life- totally working below my potential. ExH had awful hours, we could never do anything together. I felt like a single parent, even though I wasn't one. We never had time on the weekends, no vacations. I finished graduate work after I began long distant internet A with OM. It's no excuse, but I come from a long line of destructive types. Self destructive, that is. I mentioned my one sibling above. That was pure devastation, to go through that sort of loss. One other sibling has another self-destructive addiction. Many other relatives are high functioning alcoholics. I was the strong one always, the only one who did well, except for the baby in my family. I was also abused once as a child, by an older family member. ($ex abuse) Before he abused me when I was five, he was one of my favorite people in the world. I'm sure that all of these factors aren't an excuse, but they do make one see how a person who appears very confident and intelligent can be carrying a lot of baggage. People like that , perhaps, are exceptionally susceptible to making horrendous choices. I truly felt like the A was a form of self-torture. It was like I didn't care, in a way, how much I hurt myself.

(It reminds me of the Bible verse about how the sins of the fathers come upon their children, something like that)

Last June I did tell my exH that I was depressed when it started. He didn't seem to care. He knows , too, about all of my history and the stuff I've been through in my life. Again, people who know me wouldn't guess it. I seem to have it 'all together'.

I really don't think people would think him nuts to take me back. I think they know the kind of person I am, and that I made a huge mistake. But, I could be very wrong.

Checkers,
Thanks for the response. People do describe me as sweet and warm, yes.

I understand your suggestion of returning the house, kids, in good faith. I'll need to think of something else that would show him I do care.

Yes, I did scream a few times before I broke up with OM. When I was alone. I couldn't believe how my life had become. I still can't. I truly messed it all up. My mom reminded me yesterday of my 'great job'. I said, "Big deal, I couldn't care less." I would give it up in a second. All I ever wanted in life was a happy family, and I did for a long time. I never had it as a kid. My parents are still married, but their marriage and my home was not a calm one. It was a horrible environment much of the time--lots of fighting. At least in my marriage, we didn't fight. I did refrain from torturing my kids that way.

Your fresh start move idea is interesting, too. I'd thought of that before. I don't know though, we're very established here. I really don't want to leave all of my family and support system here. ExH would NEVER leave his job, he's worked so hard to get where he's at. My children would NEVER want to move. So , there you are.

He did want to work on marriage way back, right as I began EA with OM. I didn't try at that time.

Thanks for your help, Checkers. BTW, no, it wasn't reggae music. I do have some of that type, too.

Sharon,
Thanks for your response. Maybe I will invite ExH. I am nervous, but I think I may do it. I just need to not expect a yes. That is the way to go...

Please give it time, too, with your husband. I think the fog will lift soon. It took a long time for mine, really. The feelings for exH were always there. I'm sure he still cares a lot too, your H .

Kily,
Thanks too for your response. You said,

"I always had thie same insane notion that XBF would be there, and I would just be able to go back home and pick up the pieces. How foolish and selfish this was. Honestly, as much as it hurts to know that he has found someone new, I honestly can't blame him. I am STILL in shock that I've caused this much devastation. I STILL can't believe that he doesn't love me anymore. The inner child in me STILL believes that I will get a phone call in the middle of the night that says: "Come home, as ANGRY as I am, I know this is worth fixing." I have to let this go."

I could have written those words, Kily. Thanks for sharing. I truly know how you feel. It's horrible for me, anyway, to live with this.

Yes, I did care about hurting the OM, too. However, in time I could see that he himself was a very negative force for me to be around. I realized that he'd made his choice, too. He left his family, messed all of that up himself. To this day I am sure he's still legally married.For all I know, he's back with her. Here I am, alone. That's the way it goes. As I said before, I learned later on that he'd had multiple liasons. Towards the end of our R he flirted with others in front of me. Such a rage at myself I feel for leaving a marriage, for this sort of man. What in the world?? I caught him in so many lies, too. What a mess!

Espoir-
Thanks for your response and thoughts on the answering machine. YOu're right, it's too soon for R talk. I'll just keep it lighthearted.

Sharon, (in response to your second note)

You said,

"My H mentioned way back that he felt "bad" about promising OW things that he wouldn't go through with if we reconciled. What is that all about? It seems so weird to me that he places so much importance on promises to her, and not wanting to lead her on. Kind of the attitude that she did this and that for me I owe her something.

This really bothered me and I don't understand it at all. He promised me too. I did things for him and made plans with him too. How does that become overshadowed by things with someone he barely knows."

I have no excuse for how I felt this way, like I didn't want to hurt OP. I think it is all part of the confusion in having an A. I dont know, I'm sure a psychologist would have a deep sort of explanation, some sort of transference thing. I really don't know, but it is just what happened. My loyalty shifted. I'm sorry , I'm sure the pain is awful.

Kily's response would be very much how I felt, Sharon. She said,

"I was completetly lost and feeling very empty inside. The OP seemed like he was salvation to me. I felt that I owed him EVERYTHING because he cared SO much when my XBF just constantly criticized and condemed me. He was my rescuer. When I finally faced what I was running from, I felt VERY GUILTY for bringing an "innocent" person into my problems. I felt that leaving him after he picked me up and made me whole was a complete betrayal of teh "bond" that we had. "

She is so dead-on right. That 'bond' is very powerful, that secretive-- pact/bond. I am so sorry that it has caused you pain. It's awful, I agree.

She's right too, 'compartmentalizing'. That's exactly how it felt. Thanks, Kily for your explanation. I can't express myself like you can!

Thanks to all of you, enjoy the rest of your weekend.

H_P