Hello again,
Had to post a small 'update'. Spoke with exH tonight on the phone, about a financial expense for our son. Anyway, he was SUPER terse and short. I then just boldly asked him how he was feeling, etc. It turned into an hour long conversation about our R. He said some things that I'm sure were in part due to anger. At one point I told him I thought he could be depressed. He said, "Yes, maybe, and maybe other things, too." What is that supposed to mean? I was crying during the conversation, again expressing my deepest regrets and remorse for how I'd taken him for granted. I reminded him of my depression, when it started, and how screwed up I was. He did listen, and wavered from sounding angry to somewhat sympathetic. In the end, I said, "Please , tell me how do you feel?" He said, "Very, very angry". I said that we could work on that, together. He said, "No, no, no". I then said that I would ask him out again, as I did six weeks ago. He said, "Okay". I feel he gives completely mixed messages. He didn't tell me to forget it, don't ask again. Is part of him enjoying rejecting me, making me feel this pain?

This is jumbled, I know. Earlier during the conversation I'd told him I felt he built a wall around him, isolating himself in his apt--but I understood he did it for protection. HE said, "yes, I guess I have." He just repeated over and over that it was better this way, and that he didn't want to be with me again. I said, "Better for who?"

I thanked him for returning the hug the other day. I was very up front, and said, "How did the hug make you feel?" He said, "Uncomfortable" . I said, "Well, that's natural. It made me feel fantastic to be near you again."

A lot more was said, and I feel like I've been through the wringer. It seemed he was listening, and thinking, and then he'd shut me off again. Towards the end, he said that some of the M failure was his fault. I said, "Well, we had problems, yes, but it wasn't your fault we broke up, I take full responsibility, and that's what I feel so awful about. You're a great man, and I took you for granted." I apologized for being emotional, and talking about this.

All he could say was, "Ok".

He didn't seem to believe my explanation of the A being self destructive, etc. He didn't believe that I loved him the whole time, but that's okay. At least he heard me say it.

I then said that I loved him deeply , and the kids did, and that it was too bad we couldn't be together again but I understood. I said that maybe down the road, in a year, who knows...maybe he wouldn't be so angry. HE said, "Maybe".

In the end, I felt humongous relief from expressing all of this to him. IT has been a while now, since I've talked to him about R. I felt I had to do it, and he knows still how much I love him.

I am feeling now that no matter how this turns out, at least I tried my best. I've done all that I can to express my sorrow at the loss of his love. I asked him to please let me love him again. He just doesn't want it from me. I will wait for him, yes. But I'm glad I said these things today, again.

So, at least, I've said it to him. In a few years, if he is still feeling this way--at least I know I tried very hard. Many would have told him to fly a kite after he said some of the things today that he said to me. I held strong, and I did cry, but I told him again that I loved him.

Thanks for reading this 'vent',
H_P

H_P even though it didn't feel that great to have talked about the R with your xH, you and him started an intimacy that was not there before last night. Both of you got 'emotionally naked' and considering the type of person you've described him to be, I would say that for him this WAS a big deal.

It's been said that the opposite of love is not hate but indifference. Well your xH is certainly not indifferent to you and his expression of anger towards you, IMNSHO, probably means that he still feels a deep love for you.

Don't lose hope.

Hello H_P - gosh there's an awful lot you've said here, I've been away for a few days, and there's a lot to catch up on!!

Firstly, have you had or considered IC? - you have suffered greatly, and you have every right to look at some of the things that have affected you in your life and made you the person you are. Yes, you can even use them as excuses - you were sexually abused, had to suffer the horror of one sibling committing suicide and another drinking their life away. These are excuses or perhaps resons for why you are the way you are now. Excuses are when you live with them all the time, and say "Well, my life was so hard that's why I did it" but not actually look past that. I think it is perfectly natural and normal that you were depressed, but if you haven't already, you may seriously want to consider some counselling to help with this.

I think your H is giving you mixed messages because he still cares for you. If he didn't you are right, he would tell you outright not to discuss your R again and you have no future. He is not saying that, and given your situation, it would be easy for him to say that. He is probably terse and short because he is unsure what is happening and why. It is only a few months ago that you were still with OM.

To both you and Kily, as another FWS thank you for putting into words why we did what we did. My H cannot understand it, and I find it hard to express without hurting him. He does not believe that I love and care for him - I believe women too (men are much more likely to) can compartmentalise what is happening in their lives. My H could not believe that I had no guilt when I was with OM - but it was like I was a different person at a different time in a different place. Sharon, I know this must be awful for you to suffer, but you do just get swept away with it, and don't even realise - exceptionally selfish and quite bizare for rational, intelligent people.

Anyway, H_P, keep trying, and keep up the good work.

Wishing you well from misty London

Lisa

H_P,

Just to let you know I'm thinking about you. Sorry you are so drained from your dicussion with H. But I have to agree that it is a step toward intimacy. Your H is going to HAVE to work through these things to ever feel comfortable with the R again. It is much better for him to get these feelings out than bottle them up. I also agree that he seems to still care for you. He has obviously taken this very hard. You have stated (I think) that he tended to be unemotional in the past. Is is possible that this has hurt him in a way that you did not imagine possible? My H is pretty unemotional and sometimes I think I underestimate how deeply he can feel things because he seems so shallow at times.

Anyway H_P, I am praying for you. Take care of yourself. Sounds like you are working hard. Maybe TOO hard. Please take care of yourself.

Hugs,

Sharon

Footballwidow,

Don't ever make the mistake of assuming that because someone doesn't SHOW emotions that they don't have deep emotions. In fact, some of the most sensitive people work very hard to keep everything as shallow as possible in order to protect themselves from these deep emotions.

Just a piece of advice. I would guess only sociopaths fail to really have deeply felt emotions, and they probably do as well. They are just about themselves and no one else.

God Bless,

JL

H_P,

Well, I don't think the talk went as bad as you feel it did, but some of your statements do suggest that he has a right to be defensive. Permit me to go through a few of your comments.

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Hello again,
Had to post a small 'update'. Spoke with exH tonight on the phone, about a financial expense for our son. Anyway, he was SUPER terse and short.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't make an unwarrented assuption about why he was terse or short. It may not have anything to do with you. This is called a disrespectful judgement in the MB parlance. It can get you in deep water fast.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I then just boldly asked him how he was feeling, etc. It turned into an hour long conversation about our R. He said some things that I'm sure were in part due to anger. At one point I told him I thought he could be depressed. He said, "Yes, maybe, and maybe other things, too." What is that supposed to mean? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It means exactly what it says. He admits he may be depressed. But, being down because his marriage failed is not depression it is a normal reaction to what has happened to him. Further, there may well be "other things" going on in his life.

Don't second guess him OK? It suggests control and a "know it all" attitude. While you may know a good bit more than he, he is pretty sure you have no clue what he is and has gone through. After all you two have been separated for two years.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was crying during the conversation, again expressing my deepest regrets and remorse for how I'd taken him for granted. I reminded him of my depression, when it started, and how screwed up I was. He did listen, and wavered from sounding angry to somewhat sympathetic. In the end, I said, "Please , tell me how do you feel?" He said, "Very, very angry". I said that we could work on that, together. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your crying isn't going to help. Men seem to react to crying in a different way than women. It reminds us of our helplessness in dealing with these things. I suspect it reminded him of how powerless he was in this situation. You then asked a direct question (good) and got a direct answer (better, and also a very good answer from your point of view as Coffeeman pointed out). THEN, you took control in a way he probably didn't like. "We can work on that..."

Now I am really going to screw you up. I have been telling you how men are different from women <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> , and now I am going to tell you something you won't like to hear. We aren't THAT different. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

What do women hate most about men? We don't let them talk about their problems without trying to FIX the problem. All women want to do is air it out and in fact get reinforcement. You didn't listen to him and consider what he had to say and offer some words that suggested you understood, you offered to FIX the problem. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Women! what are we going to do with you? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Look at his response to your offer to fix this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He said, "No, no, no". I then said that I would ask him out again, as I did six weeks ago. He said, "Okay". I feel he gives completely mixed messages. He didn't tell me to forget it, don't ask again. Is part of him enjoying rejecting me, making me feel this pain?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Disrespectful judgements again. You don't know what he is thinking, except you can be pretty sure he has a wall to protect himself. He admitted that. That wall isn't to hurt you and make you feel pain, it is to PROTECT him from the 4 years of pain you caused him.

He doesn't know what to say to you is my guess. He never expected you to want to talk to him. He never expected you would breakup with OM. He never expected to be divorced. He never expected you to leave him. In short, he has no clue as to what to expect, so you get very confused answers. Until you demonstrate consistent behavior for a long time, he will continue to be confused and you will get confused answers and behavior from him.

Unless of course he does decide to give this up and move on and perhaps find another woman. Then I suspect you will start to see very consistent and clear behavior. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> So my vote is stay with the confused and be happy about it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is jumbled, I know. Earlier during the conversation I'd told him I felt he built a wall around him, isolating himself in his apt--but I understood he did it for protection. HE said, "yes, I guess I have." He just repeated over and over that it was better this way, and that he didn't want to be with me again. I said, "Better for who?"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That one is self obvious. It is better for him. He cannot address what is better for you. Don't ask questions that you really do know the answer to OK?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I thanked him for returning the hug the other day. I was very up front, and said, "How did the hug make you feel?" He said, "Uncomfortable" . I said, "Well, that's natural. It made me feel fantastic to be near you again."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't ask him how such things feel. Just do them. You will know when he really likes them or really dislikes them. But it seems to me that bringing it out into words means if you do hug him, you are saying "I don't care if it makes you uncomfortable, I want to do it again because it makes me feel fantastic." Better to leave such things unsaid, because then things can change and no one has to admit they have changed their minds or backtracked.
You still need to hug him, or kiss him or whatever to him, but don't put him on the hot seat about it.

You will know if he strongly objects to it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A lot more was said, and I feel like I've been through the wringer. It seemed he was listening, and thinking, and then he'd shut me off again. Towards the end, he said that some of the M failure was his fault. I said, "Well, we had problems, yes, but it wasn't your fault we broke up, I take full responsibility, and that's what I feel so awful about. You're a great man, and I took you for granted." I apologized for being emotional, and talking about this.

All he could say was, "Ok".</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It was good that you got to say this and will probably say it again. But, notice that he feels it was his fault as well. This is where the self-esteem issues and the walls come from. Perhaps sometime ask him if he volunteers it was his fault, what he felt was his fault? And then simply be quiet and listen to him. If he doesn't say a thing for awhile, still be quiet and wait for him to formulate all of this into words. I doubt your H will have the words on the tip of his tongue. But they will be in his heart and if you will give him time to express himself he will.

This actually may be good advice for many of your conversations with him, if he is as quiet as you think. Just wait until he speaks.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He didn't seem to believe my explanation of the A being self destructive, etc. He didn't believe that I loved him the whole time, but that's okay. At least he heard me say it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is good that he heard what you said, but if I took you statements earlier they could easily be translated as you not loving him. Let me explain. You have explained how you broke up with OM because he wasn't who/what you thought. He didn't treat you well etc. So that means the decision to get back to your H had little to do with your love of H, but rather the fact that OM was a jerk. If he had not been a jerk, the divorce and life would of been good right??? You didn't make your decisions based on your feelings for H, but the failures of the OM.

Hence, your H feels that your "love" of him, is simply a fall back position so that you are not alone. It is the "second best" choice issue. THis is a very difficult issue to overcome but it has and can be. But, it takes time and patience.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I then said that I loved him deeply , and the kids did, and that it was too bad we couldn't be together again but I understood. I said that maybe down the road, in a year, who knows...maybe he wouldn't be so angry. HE said, "Maybe".</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Girl, you just got all you need to know. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Don't push him, but become his friend again and yes give it the year or MORE to see if MAYBE becomes something more concrete. He is going to need to see consistent behavior from you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In the end, I felt humongous relief from expressing all of this to him. IT has been a while now, since I've talked to him about R. I felt I had to do it, and he knows still how much I love him.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No he doesn't know how much you love him. That I can guarentee. He has heard your words, but he doesn't know. You are going to have to show him you love him by your actions everyday.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am feeling now that no matter how this turns out, at least I tried my best. I've done all that I can to express my sorrow at the loss of his love. I asked him to please let me love him again. He just doesn't want it from me. I will wait for him, yes. But I'm glad I said these things today, again.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am glad you said these things as well, but as for trying your best?? I don't think so. This takes a lot of time and 3-4 months is not your best. He probably wants your love, but he doesn't trust that it is real. My guess is he feels it is a convenience until someone better comes along. This will take time for you to turn around.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, at least, I've said it to him. In a few years, if he is still feeling this way--at least I know I tried very hard. Many would have told him to fly a kite after he said some of the things today that he said to me. I held strong, and I did cry, but I told him again that I loved him.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe others would have told him to fly a kite, but I think you know he must get the anger out. It is one of the stages of dealing with grief and yes even recovery. Your long term (a few years) approach is well considered and I suspect will indeed allow the two of you to productively address all that has happened.

I know this post sounds a bit harsh. It is not meant to be. But, I think you must realize that actions will speak louder than words and consistent actions will shout to him. From all he has said the door hasn't been slammed shut. But, I suspect he feels he would rather be alone as he has been for the last few years, than be made a fool of again.

H_P, you are doing well, just have patience with this. Make contact with him as often as you can, talk with him about other things besides the relationship also. You don't want him to associate long painful relationship talks with you all of the time. You want him to start to associate you with smiles, a good joke, some good news, sharing things with him. You know what I am talking about.

Well, this thing has rambled on far too long, and I suspect most of what I said you knew or is pretty low in value content, but hang in there and keep up your efforts.

God Bless,

JL

HP,

I've read your thread and have no time to comment right now. Unfortunately my life did a complete topsy turvey this weekend and I need to address that first. I am thinking of you, and although you are discouraged, I want you to keep your spirits up. This exchange was pretty good.

Dear Hope
Im a FWS. I had the A and it devestated both my H and I, however we have been in recovery for a few years now and are doing really good.

Something stood out in what you said after speaking to your H and asking him all the questions.

you said: A lot more was said, and I feel like I've been through the wringer.

You feel you have been through the wringer. How do you think that your H feels. He probably feels so humilated and angry, devestated and torn apart. He just spent 21 years with you and to him it meant nothing to you because you were with someone else. Im not coming down on you. I have been in your shoes. A little different situation as my A did not go on for 4 years nor have I been married for 21 years but that is neither here nor there because an A is an A is an A.

You MUST give him time. Your H has been through all of what you are feeling. He has felt shock, extreme sadness, and more. He had to go through grieving the loss of his marriage and wife he had for 21 years. Can you imagine being him? I know you are in a tough boat but like I was, WE put ourselves there. Now I know it was a mistake. I know you are human. Me too but you have GOT to give this man time. GO SLOW. Be friends. You need to start ALL over again. You can't expect him to jump back in love with you.

When you very first met you became friends right??

Well start there. I had to do the same thing. It was tough....very tough.

If you stick to your guns, take care of yourself, always be at your best, STAY QUIET, don't pressure him but talk and be his friend, you can perhaps get another chance.

I can't promise you that since you are already divorced but I had some family members divorce after 25 years of marriage. A bitter and ugly divorce. 4 years later they remarried but they BOTH worked on each other and started fresh. We all attended their 2nd wedding.

Please do not whine to him about how screwed up you were during the A. He knows that.
Please don't beg, plead and cry to him. UNATTRACTIVE TO THE MAX
Please don't pursue him like wildfire. That is not attractive either. You just be a lady, take care of you, work on you, you need to do some work to find out WHAT happened to get you where you ended up.

I did it. Its HARD work. Most people quit halfway because its too hard but I didn't quit. I kept going and guess what. Today I have my marriage in tact, stronger than ever. Sure we have a few bad days here and there, but that is normal. Thing is now we know how to work through them.

Don't lose hope. You can be one of those stories of someone that remarried their X. You must map out your goals but before you can do this. You must TAKE CARE OF YOU. Do not re-enter the relationship because you miss him, want what you had before. You will NEVER have what you had before. I can promise you that. The good thing is that you can have something better with him. If you do this right.

Be smart about this. Common sense. I know this sucks but nothing good ever comes easy.

and my famous last words..WORDS mean nothing to a BS...Actions speak louder than words!!

and listen to JustLearning and Foreverhers. They offer SOLID and SMART advice.

Zoey

<small>[ November 18, 2002, 12:52 PM: Message edited by: Zoey ]</small>

Hello everyone,

Thanks for taking the time to read this, and for all of the responses I've had since I started this thread. It has been very helpful.

I haven't talked to exH since Sunday evening, when I 'lost it' emotionally and cried , etc, on the phone. I realize that it's not the 'attractive' thing to do. The problem is, it's not easy to control it when I speak with him. I don't know how I can do it. Sometimes even just a brief conversation with him about other things will get my voice cracking as I'm so full of emotion about the whole situation. I'm not like this in other venues of my life, usually. I do tend to be very emotional with people that I love . I really wish I were more stoic, but I am not.

In response to your thoughts...

Coffeeman,
It was great to hear from you again. Your name itself makes me laugh/smile as I too am a coffee person.

Thanks, Coffeeman, I agree that the conversation did start some sort of intimacy that wasn't there before that evening. I really feel he hasn't definitely made up his mind. He just seems far too willing to be civil to be completely 'over'.
I can't imagine what he's gone through, and it sickens me to know what I did to this kind human being.

Thanks, I am not losing hope. I agree, anger shows some sort of feeling.

Lisa,
Thanks for your kind words. I have had counseling in the past, yes, after the suicide of my beloved sibling and also in marriage counseling with my exH. At that time I did talk about and 'deal' with the abuse I suffered as a child. It was a one time deal, so it was thought that it had no lingering effects. Thanks though for the suggestion.

As I said earlier, too, part of my depression was that I was very underemployed. That situation has changed dramatically, so that has done much to help boost self-esteem and get me out of the blues. I don't feel depressed now, and the sadness that does come is situational--from the divorce, not from inside of me as it did before. I am angry at ME for the A, but I have forgiven myself to some degree.

My exH told me too the other evening that I had a 'funny' way of showing my love for him, during the A. He was right, all I could say to him was, "I'm sorry, I was extremely messed up and took you for granted." I can see why he would be so furious with me.

You're right, an A is like a powerful drug. Swept away is an understatement. Kily stated it really well here, on some thread, about how it feels. It was a total escape from reality, in some ways.

Thanks, Lisa, for your thoughts.

Sharon,

Thanks for your words. Yes, it is a step toward intimacy, and I agree that these things need to be expressed. Yes, he never showed much emotion but I knew he always had it. He's just very stoic.

JL,
Thanks for your input , too. Yes, I shouldn't make disrespectful judgments.

You're right, being down due to a failed marriage is different than being depressed. I think that he's just down from the situation. I bluntly asked him the other night if he was seeing someone else, or interested in anyone--he again said, "No." I don't think the 'other things' meant a woman, no. I know you must think I'm too bold to say these things, to ask these things, but I can't come here and lie about what I said.

As I mentioned above, I know that men especially don't like crying. I am not doing it, JL, to have it 'help' in any way. It is simply uncontrollable at certain times.

YOu know, I grew up in a home where we weren't allowed to cry. We were told that we would soon get something to REALLY cry about. Once I finally let myself cry as a grown woman, I find it near impossible not to when I feel the emotions swelling up. Have I ever cried at work? NO. Do I cry in front of people I'm not comfortable with? NO. It is just part of who I am, just as I laugh easily and feel great pleasure in life. I learned that grief is the price we pay for love. I'm grieving the loss of my husband, so I cry when I speak with him at times. Any suggestion, please, as to how I can talk to him, and not cry when we're talking deeply? IT's even hard for me, with casual conversations. My exH , by the way, used to cry easily too. I haven't seen it though, since our marriage fell apart.

You're right about the differences between men and women, I see what you mean! I did tell him , by the way, that I understood how he felt. I did do that, and that I hoped that maybe in some time, a year maybe, he would feel differently. That's when he said, "maybe".

He said, "NO" to a fresh start with me. He just feels it would 'never be the same again'. I always agree with him, that it wouldn't be, but we could make it better. He just doesn't see it, yet, at all.

You said,
"Until you demonstrate consistent behavior for a long time, he will continue to be confused and you will get confused answers and behavior from him."

Thanks for reminding me, you're right. You're right too that I shouldn't ask him how things feel. It's not a good thing to do, I suppose.

As far as the hug, I do see what you're saying. I will do it again sometime. You're right, now I feel more stifled as he said he felt uncomfortable. So there you are.

JL, I will respond to the rest of the note tomorrow. YOu said so much of value, but I am so physically exhausted now that it's hard to keep my eyes open. (They're sore, too, today) I want to give your very excellent words the attention they deserve.

Kily, yours too-- Thanks , I'll respond tomorrow, I am so , so tired. (New extra responsiblity at my job now-started last week, makes me super tired in the evening-plus I just finished homework for the class I'm taking)

Thanks again, everyone, for caring.

God Bless,
H_P

H_P,

I don't have much time today. Just a few quick thoughts. One, about the crying. You don't need to apologize. I am certainly not anti-crying, except for men. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Actually, I am of two thoughts on this and please understand these are my opinions and may not apply to you at all. OK?

One, are taught not to cry because when you do you are physically blind. That can be a very dangerous and even fatal situation in a fight, combat, or an emergency. When you cry in front of your H, you don't get to see him and his reactions to what you say. This could be something to consider.

Two, Crying is good for you. So it is something that people should do.

Those are my opinions. Now to the reason I stated to you to be weary of crying in front of exH. Crying expresses deep emotions and is hard for someone else to see, especially if they care for you. Your exH is fighting his emotions and so your crying puts him in a very hard spot. He will want to comfort you and assure you that things will be alright, but he cannot and be honest. He has his walls to protect, and frankly even without the walls he doesn't know if he can love you again. So this will make him very uncomfortable. Ultimately you want him comfortable around you.

As for the hugging, although he said he was uncomfortable, keep doing it if YOU want to. My point is be careful, of asking things of him, getting the answer, and doing what you want as if you didn't care what the answer was. I personally, and it is a personal thing with me, think that the good the hugs will do you and him out weigh, his short term discomfort.

His comment that things will never be the same again, is true as you know. But, sometime ask him what he means. Can he list a few things for you. Why? Well, the conditions of physical intimacy won't ever be the same. You have been with another man. But, that doesn't mean they could not be good. Your emotional connection to him could actually be better, because the aren't based on the idealism of people first married, but battled scarred veterans who know fully appreciate the strengths and weaknesses of one another. Communications and sharing could be greatly improved because you two have had to share the most painful truths about each other. Can you imagine anything the two of you could share that would embarress you or him??

He will need to see the pluses and the minuses for himself, but if you have a pretty good idea of the pluses and minuses in your mind it will help when this discussion comes up.

Must go. God Bless,

JL

hi again hopeful girl , time for the crazy relative to drop in. as I had mentioned before you seem to be a sweet person, probably have alot of fun about you, also, very competant. you'd be a wonderful wife. to lose someone like you would be devastating. to lose some wives might be a blessing, but for your ex to have lost you? can you see why he is destroyed? like most people here im on your side. I think your frequent postings are one of the best things you can do. its a method of electronic psychotherapy I think. plus, you get the benfit of the wisdom of several people too. psychotherapy has as its aim the putting together of ones psychic. namely getting in touch with the real you. many times we tell ourselves that we feel a certain way, but our behavior appears to condridict this to some extent. to give an example you once posted that the om didnt have all of your love the entire time you were with him. then recently you posted that you told your husband that you loved him the entire time. from your posting some of the time you didn love husband. or you never loved om one. the kind of love that can only be shown to one person at a time. your husband, if I may pretend to be him, may have thought, as you were telling him that you loved him the entire time, athat your love was not the kind of love he needed. he may have thought real love does not or cannot do that to the beloved. so he may be thinking that you don't really know what true love is or at least don't' have it for him. remember here I could be wrong. along the lines of what we say and what others hear is another statement (im going somewhere with all this stuff)that you told him some time back you needed him, then told him again recently. he may have heard. she needs me???wonder if she has ever wondered what I might need? or maybe he thought we her star player turned out to be a dud , so she is calling for the second string player to return to the game. make no mistake he sees himself as second choice. and, generally speaking , a man who will allow himself to be second choice is not much of a choice.I dont think he is a second choice person. a recent post you replyed, as he said its best, you said best for who. he, again , may have thought there you go again telling me in your own sweet way that its best for you . the children will be gone so they aren actually part of the equation for much longer. he may possibly want you to think of whats best for him. one post you mentioned that you didnt think people would think him a fool if he came back to you, I dont' know ex , but from your comments , I believe he is not worried about what others might think of him, but that he might consider himself a fool if he came back. the thing Im trying to do here is help you stand in his shoes. by an ongoing awareness of his mind set you can be better able to interact more positively with him. I don't think your breaking into tears is a bad thing. it shows clearly that you are emotionally distraught. much better than is often heard . well just get over it and lets move on. which if I heard that phrase. I would move on, alone. another thing, im just full of things today, but Im honestly trying to help. falling back on childhood trauma as a cause in your infidelity may not fly with him. sometimes he may think , Im sorry she went through that, but why do I have to pay the price. people who are mistreated in chidhood, sometimes mistreat their own children. society doesn't excuse that for children ,and any one being punished may not want to hear that either. maybe apply the old saw if you keep doing what you have been doing, you will keep getting what you have been getting. to get a different relationship changes in behavior are called for. I think if you can start with a willingness to do that, then you will find your way. I believe the both of you are mainstream culure? middle america? Its entirely possible that he resents the om more than had om been regular everyday person. thats why I suggest getting rid of anything remotely suggestive of the om 's culture. art. etc. throw away the books , don't refer to or speak any of the oms' language, extreme? in this day of political correctness people are still affected by human nature. our nature sometimes resents some things about people who are different in some way. logical no. but a fact of behavior , and its necessary to base your behavioral decisions on reality not a utopian idea of humanity. you said you would quit this job in a second. I know you may have a hard time, but its a step in right direction. but let ex know why your quitting. i.e. that you hope for a new start in life. move to a different neighborhood if at all possible. affirm your ex husband in everyway you can think of. if my ex had ran off with the japanese ceo of an automotive company then tried to come back. she better damn sure not be driving a toyota when she comes to my place. she has to drive a detroit car even if it is junk lol. the justification? maybe pride, as men, we can lay down our lives for our loved ones, in a jungle, desert, some third world dump of a city, but in return , we have to have some recognition for that, and to validate who we are as men is required. sometimes we have to give over to love, that means subordinating ourself for another. would it be too far out to just ask ex "what do you need from me"? and try to give that to him. he wont need it forever, but it would be a good start. couple other thoughts, you said your life is an open book to him now. are you , or have you been willing to discuss everything you did with om to him? should he ask. the most imtimate, even humililating things? He may not realize it, but he needs to know not only who you are now, but who you have been for the past couple or three years..he has to be able to be with you without any regrets, misconceptions, no thoughts of when makeing love having to wonder if you did that with om. if you did he needs to know. then if he becomes intimate he doesn even have to think about it. should he ask you about comparisons. can you tell him honestly? can you. thats a really hard mountain to climb. he wonders irregardless of what he may say. let me ask one more question. the idea is for you to find just where to define your boundaries. if ex said I will consider trying once again if you will do one thing to prove yourself. you ask what? he says call up om. ask him to come back and have dinner with you one more time. but this time I will join you at the table once you are seated? you say why on earth. he says to see how serious you are about reconcilation. also, I just want to see him and find out for myself what made him so damn attractive to you. what the are dynamics so to speak. I know this sounds crazy, but some call it thinking outside the box. others on here probably call it thinking outside of the section 8 ward either way, how far can you go? you must get him interested in you once again. the old you will not draw him in. he's been there , done that. the new you just might reel him back. someone said you cannot go back to the relationship you once had. but you can have something better. no, it can be good, but never as good as the close family with the young children, the times together. even in your latter years there will always be the gorilla sitting in the corner of your relationship. but even with the gorilla sitting there it will be hands down better than anything either of you are likey to find with anyone else. he knows that, and so do you. remember how far can you go. quitting the job, new neighborhood, throwing away all things remotely connected to the oms culture, even to point of bringing back om for a 3 way dinner. hell surprise the om. Im assuming he and your husband have never met. I know this is long, and also whacky, but at least its not the hang in there stuff. I have tried to point out some things and offer some approaches . god bless you hopeful..I know your husband will never find anyone else like you. to sum up he needs you. he just is afraid of needing anyone . the last person he depended on destroyed him..ironically you probably could not destroy a lounge lizard like the om if that an accurate description. but only the really good people are vunerable. again god bless

Hi Everyone,

I hope you've had a good week. I am glad that it's soon the weekend.

Thanks for your responses, it is so helpful to come here and read your opinions and thoughts. You don't know how much it is appreciated!!

JL-- Let me try and finish responding to your posts. I do try, by the way, to wait until exH speaks. It is almost unbearable--I can wait up to a minute. This is truly hard to do. In fact, I think at 45 seconds I start to talk. So, next time I'll truly wait.

As far as breaking up with OM, I am sure I didn't make it very clear. It is true, he wasn't exactly who I thought he was. The problem was that looking at him began to remind me of the pain I'd caused my exH, and I couldn't live with the guilt of it all. I feel that is the main reason that things really disintegrated. I realized I still loved my exH. I did the whole time. Other man began to act worse over time, I think in part as I was acting hostile towards him. I was mad at him over his part in our affair!! Does that make sense? This was all compounded by the fact that he was a game player, and very immature although 7 years older. (at least, I think he maybe lied about that, too) I just kept thinking, even early in the A...why am I doing this? My H is far superior to this man. I know ...by the way...even if the OM had been fantastic in all ways that I could not have stayed in that sort of R. It's all based on lies, and it's too hard to get past that truth of it.

I remember once I heard a celebrity brag about how happy he was, with his new woman, the OW, after a long marriage. After that the journalist interviewed his soon to be Exwife, the BS, and she said (Paraphrasing) , "It is amazing how he can talk about his happiness when he's ripped apart so many R's and created so much pain for others. How can he talk of happiness?" I heard these words years ago, and I will never forget them. This is simply how I felt, even as I ruined so much around me. I couldn't feel happy, knowing I truly loved my exH and that I messed up so badly by having the A. On top of this, my children's happiness is very important. I prefer being alone as to having them have to adapt to some new person. The only man I want to be with is their dad, and he's the only dad I want them to have. That's just how I feel. Too bad I did what I did, but that's over now.

I don't know if he feels he's a fallback position at all. I think he likes being alone, as he dislikes conflict so much. He seems to associate me with conflict, at this point--we didn't fight much at all, as I recall. The other night, I stupidly asked him, "What am I to you now?" He said, "All you are is my kids' mom." I said, "So, I am nothing to you." He said , "That's right." I can't make him love me anymore than he can make me stop loving him. He did say though that in a year he might be ready, so that is what I am hoping for. He knows I dont NEED a man to function, I'm not that kind of person.

JL- You said that I must show him I love him, everyday. You said that words are meaningless. How can I show him, when I don't see him ever..except on 'exchanges' of kids. Please let me know how I can do that one.

I did email him two days ago and thank him for talking to me Sunday evening, for giving me time on the phone. I then said I understood his feelings, and then I thanked him for being a great dad. That was about all I said. HOw can I show actions to someone who doesn't want me around?
You said,

"I am glad you said these things as well, but as for trying your best?? I don't think so. This takes a lot of time and 3-4 months is not your best."

I know it's hard in words to clarify everything, but I wasn't referring to trying my best at this point. I meant after years of this stance.

In your second post to me you mentioned crying, and that it is hard to see reactions when crying. You're right, indeed. MOst of our talks are on the phone, so I can't see him anyway. I didn't say that to be funny, or sassy, but I like the logic of what you said. I wish I could get him to talk in person with me, about casual things, but he doesn't want to.

I like your idea of him listing how things will be different now. I might suggest it sometime, but for now I guess I need to cool the R talks.

Thanks for your help, JL. I never consider you to be harsh!

KIly,
Thanks for your post too. Sorry about your misfortune last weekend. I posted on your thread and will check in there later on. I'm thinking of you, too.

HI Zoey,
Glad that things are going well for you and your H. How wonderful to read that here.

You're right, he has been through the wringer . (exH) Thanks for pointing it out to me, you are so right about all of the pain he's experienced and carried.

Yes, we were friends first, he and I . He doesn't even want that now. Maybe in time he will.

Nice to hear about your family members who remarried after four years of divorce. I guess there's always hope. I appreciate your advice very much. I did tell him we could have an even better R. He just laughed at that, but I understand where he's coming from. He's a very black and white thinking person, no middle ground.

Thanks, Zoey, for your help!

Checkers,
Thanks for your input. I respect what you are saying , but I won't be able to change my career path. I began studying OM's language 28 years before I met OM. It would be like asking a Civil Engineer not to be a Civil Engineer anymore because the OW works for a C.E. firm, that's far away. I don't mean disrespect, but this is how I feel. Without my job, my career, I would have no home for my kids. I am only trained in this profession. I stayed home for 13 years, I am over 40---my options as far as career are not so broad. OM lives hundreds of miles away. I'll never bump into him anywhere. Millions of people in this area speak his language, so there's no avoiding it. Thanks, just the same, I mean no disrespect, Checkers.

Thanks for your support, and for being kind enough to respond to my posting. It's nice to know that people here care so much.

I haven't cried since Sunday night. That is good, I suppose. It feels like I'm healing a bit, if you all know what I mean.

Take care,
H_P

H_P,

Have a good weekend. I don't have much to say but I thought I would touch on a couple of things. You asked how do you "show" him. My comment wasn't that you weren't but that you must continue. You "show" him be speaking well of him to your children, friends that know both of you, his family, yours. I am sure you are doing this already.

You "show" him by walking out to talk to him when he picks up the kids, or drops them off. In fact, inform the kids you would like to speak to Dad when he brings them home. Then just say Hi! how are you doing? that sort of thing. You keep informed as to what the kids are up to when he doesn't see them. You bring him into their lives. I am sure you are doing many of these things already. Just realize that they are a way to "show" him you do love him. But, it doesn't hurt for him to get a hug and/or a kiss every now and then. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Keep inviting him to things or special events. It seems from your posts that he is actually fairly comfortable with you in public situations, rather than one on one. That is consistent with him being a conflict avoider. He doesn't want a deep talk but he can and does enjoy your company in the right setting.

He has said maybe a year. Actually, a year is a good time to review things. It will be a year since OM has left. It has been my experience that a year is about the time it takes people to adjust to new things, heal from emotional loses, and recover from even physical illness.

Now this brings up something interesting. He has had the year and then some to adjust to living without you in his life, and actually having no hope that you would be in his life. So you do have that inertia to overcome. But, I think you can.

Don't you find it interesting that "conflict avoiders" never avoid conflict? They just suffer from the pain of conflict for much longer. Weird.

Must go.

God Bless,

JL

As always, thanks JL for your reply. It's taken a long time for me to get back to MB this week. It's been busy, as usual, at work. My eldest is home a lot lately, and I don't have the privacy with her around--to sit and open up here. I love having her here, of course!!!

Kids are all now with their dad for the afternoon. He's off this week. I so would love to come home from work and have everyone here. IT is just so, so sad.

I'm trying to look at Thanksgiving with gratefulness towards God for what I have. I am not concentrating on what I've lost, but just being grateful for the many blessings in my life. I sent ExH a card today, for Thanksgiving. It wasn't overly sentimental, and I just signed it Love, and thanked him for being who he was.

I sent him an email on Sunday evening, child shuffling arrangements. I did add some 'sentimental' stuff. He replied on the childcare, no comment on anything emotional. Nothing at all.

To respond...
JL-Yes, I do speak kindly of him always. I hope that in time these things 'get back' to him, but I know people in my circle and they don't talk. That is just how they are.

I will continue saying 'hi, how are you.." etc. I barely get a response. IT is really hard at times, but I'll continue on.

I will invite him to 'things' or events. You're right about the conflict avoider thing. He doesn't care to be alone with me, it seems. It makes me so sad and upset to think about it, my head literally pounds.

A year is a good time to review things. I can certainly live with that, and then some. I have no interest in dating at all, and I know me. I won't for a long, long time. I really want to work it out with him, the love of my life--IF he wants that too.

Inertia is right, as you said. He was always the more passive person in the R, as I'm sure you've guessed. I did try to coax him into 'trying' just after D Day, but he wanted no part of me then, just as he doesn't now.

Thanks to all who've read my posts and added their thoughts here. I am off now to catch up here on some of the other MB folks' lives.

Take care and God bless,
H_P

Hi H_P,

Thanks for your reply to my post. I have been busy to but for some reason I haven't felt like posting too much. I am gearing up for a
vent-o-rama though.

I hope you have a good holiday. I will heed your good thought and also remember all I have to be thankful for. I am truly blessed. I wish I could always keep that foremost in my thoughts.

I envy you not wanting to date. I guess if I saw H occasionally it would keep my hope alive a little better. I am VERY lonely for company. I have lots of friends, kids, etc. But I think it was you who said "it's just not the same"

I do see hope in your R. I don't know if I'm the only one. I really do think you just need time, your H needs time. It is good that you aren't in a hurry. It seems like you are more relaxed now than at first about just letting things happen in their own good time.

If I don't talk to you again have a wonderful Thanksgiving. Your help and friendship is one of the things I will be thankful for.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Sharon

H_P,

You sound down. Don't be, this will take time to see what will happen. It may be that your exH is so badly damaged by all of this that you won't be able to reach him. But, I think the time for determining this to be so is a long way off.

I keep repeating this, but I think this is true, he has been alone a long time and it will be hard to restart things. You on the other had haven't been alone for long. I suspect there may be an element of him letting you see how it feels.

I don't know. But, his "maybe later" comments suggest that he isn't beyond reach, but you will have to work for it. So keep the faith <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> have a good Thanksgiving, and do as good as you can do.

God Bless,

JL

HP,

I really believe that your words to me apply here. Let Go and Let God. I see many similarities between your situation and mine. Although I am at a "new" place with this whole endeavor, it is truly a test for me. I think the same is happening for you. We have both come SO far, but yet we have so FAR to go. The point is, at least our eyes are open and we are willing to learn from our mistakes. THAT is the BEST that we can do.

If it's any consolation, I always set an extra place at my Thanksgiving table for those that can not be with me. In my mind, YOU will be seated at that place at my table tomorrow.

I know the feeling of not wanting to date. I'm so disinterested in forming a "new" relationship right now that I'm wondering if I will ever want to again. I know that time will heal all of this. It's just hard when you are in the throes of it all.

I hope you feel better. Have a nice holiday.

<small>[ November 27, 2002, 08:54 AM: Message edited by: kily ]</small>

Hi Everyone,
I hope all of you have a peaceful and blessed Thanksgiving.

It is hard at times for me to focus on blessings. Thanksgiving has always been my favorite holiday, probably as it isn't as commercial as Christmas. I love having four days off, too. ExH and I got engaged over Thanksgiving, too. I really have always enjoyed it , everything about it!

DRiving home from work just now in the cold and dark, I felt very sad, again. The house seems very empty without him here. I felt that way even before, during the A- while separated. I always thought I could return to my previous life somehow. I know it sounds crazy, but that's how I felt. OM and I were NEVER together over the Thanksgiving weekend, at any time.

BAck in June I remember thinking even then that my exH would take me back, that it wouldn't be a hard thing to do---to have him love me again. What a fool I've been.

Thanks for hearing out the vent!

Anyway, to respond. JL-you're right. I am down. I am not crying as much now, I feel resigned that this man won't love me. HE never responds to any emails, cards, calls, nothing at all. I asked him 10 days ago, "So I am nothing to you?" He said, "Yes, that's right." That is truly how he sees me.

Time and patience, you're right. I agree, JL--I was JUST thinking the same thing as you. He is now trying to let me know how it feels , to be alone. I guess I can see that, too. Quite frankly I think he's happy alone. HE can do as he pleases, no house to take care of, no yard to watch over...no demands. I think in a way it's his own MLC. Does that make sense? He can run out, do what he wants..take little trips...no kids to take along. It's all freedom for him, and I think he likes it. I hope he grows tired of it soon, but who knows.

My daughter mentioned over a year ago that he has a colleague who works cross country , and they email back and forth. Exchange recipes, etc. She's a female, married...they send IM's, too. I don't like this, either. But who am I to say? Maybe he has some sort of EA going on with her. It's entirely possible, isn't it? I only bring that up because it bothers me. He won't talk to me at all, but he'll IM some practically complete stranger.(I know, who am I to talk)

I told him in an email the other day that my mom wasn't doing well, physically, and he never asked a thing about it. This is how it is now, not much caring. He's known my mom for 29 years, and she's always been good to him. It would just seem humane for him to ask how she's doing.

Kily, Thanks for your thoughts, too. I will 'let go, let god." It is just very hard. I am proud, too. I know that I made a huge mistake, but I am certainly worthy of someone's love. I just don't know if it will be my exH, ever again.

Have a great Thanksgiving,
God Bless,
H_P

{{{{{HUGS}}}}} H_P,

I am thinking about you. The holidays are really starting to get to me too. Try not to get too down. I know it is hard but someday this will all work out. We just don't know how. Yes the MLC thing makes a lot of sense. I believe this is a big draw for my H to be alone too. The no responsiblities except financial. Maybe your H is in his own little fantasy of "greener grass" It may take awhile for him to wake up.

I can understand your not liking the IMing with the female friend. I hope your H doesn't chose this road. It is a road of heartache. Hopefully he will not want to cause damage knowing the possible outcome. Boy we can sure be foolish when it comes to emotions. I have done some foolish things lately. Things I would have never thought I could do in this stage of my life. Pain and hurt affect your judgement.

I would have to agree "let go and let God" but I know how hard it is. I will be praying for you. Have a good Thanksgiving.

Take care,

Sharon

HP-

HUGS to you.

I can understand why this Holiday is such a painful one for you. All I can say is that I know what you are feeling right now. I'm there too!

I wish there were some sort of Magical Wand that I could wave to make all of this heal for you. I can't.

What I can do is ask you to sit down and write out what you see your life to be like if you and your husband were to reconcile. Sit and write the no holds barred - pure fantasy version of what you see the perfect situation to be. Then I want you to sit down and write out the scenario that you envision if your husband and you do not reconcile. Write out the deepest darkest things that you perceive in your mind.

If you want to post it, great. If not, great! I think that just doing this exercise might help you to see where your pain is coming from.

Yes we both want the chance to go back and fix what we "think" we've ruined. There's been so much that we've learned that we just "know" will fix all of the problems. The problem is that we have made our choices, and now that we've seen the light, we selfishly want to go home and forget that it all happened. We are wrong to think this way.

What we have to do is to face that we have at least made an effort to voice our feelings. We have expressed our sorrow and our pain. We have tried to demonstrate that we are sincere and genuine in our desires to reconcile. We have looked internally to try and heal ourselves. We are trying to be accountable for our failures.

Part of our healing needs to include the acceptance that our beloved mate has made a new life for themselves that doesn't include us. We have to learn to support their wishes, and to let go of our NEEDS for them to be a part of our lives. Once we let go of this desire for fulfillment, we can learn to simply be "friends". Sometimes, that is more important than a romantic "r".

I know that this seemed HarsH. It's not meant to be. I'm just in a really weird "funk", and I needed to share this specifically with you.

I'm sad for the both of us, but tomorrow will be a better day.