HP,

It sounds to me as if you REALLY need to take a vacation.

I know that in the year prior to my A, I was working my butt off, going to night school and coming home exhausted because I was avoiding the "problems" that were in my life.

I don't believe your situation with your XH is as bleak as you seem to think it is. I think that you are overworked and mildly depressed and that can alter your perspective tremendously.

I know it will be difficult to step away from your responsibilities right now, and you might come up with an excuse of "There's no one to go with, I don't know where I would go, etc. but the truth is, You need to take some breathing time.....

I'm rooting for you.

I agree with the above. H_P have a happy holiday. Know that people care.

All my best,

Sharon

JL,
Thanks for that , I appreciate it. YOu're right, only my exH can come to the idea of forgiveness.

Yesterday when I picked up the children, he was very friendly and I know this sounds odd, but I do feel that he still loves me. I am speaking about the way he looks at me, the intensity of it. Unless it's simply a projection of my own feelings. However, I don't feel it every time I see him, so I feel that it's when I 'catch him' at moments when he's being more open to me. Perhaps that sounds 'flaky', but that's how I see it.

I will be patient, and wait and see what happens. I know it will take years.

Kily,
A vacation would be nice. I do have some time off over the holidays, but I 'm not going on a trip. I did take a small trip with my kids this summer, and we had a great time.

I'm having a large group here for Christmas this year. I have so much to do to prepare for that, I can't think of a vacation until that day passes.

It's funny, I started the A and then went back to school full time, plus worked part time. I don't know how I juggled all of that. Since that time it's been work, work, work. You're right,when you said,

"I think that you are overworked and mildly depressed and that can alter your perspective tremendously."

I'll enjoy some holiday time off, even if I don't go anywhere.

Thanks, Sharon!

I hope you have a nice holiday , too.

Take care,
H_P

Hi hopeful. christmas eve. time for reflection. I do have some suggestions and and overall approach to your dilemia in mind. however, tonight I would write you some poetry. coopted from the middle eastern writer Kahil Gibran. This is addressed to his answers on crime and punishment.
If any of you would bring to judgement the unfaithful wife,
Let him also weigh the heart of her husband in scales, and measure his soul with measurements.
And let him who would lash the offender look into the spirit of the offended.
And if any of you would punish in the name of righteousness and lay the ax unto the evil tree, let him see to its roots.
And verily he will find the roots of the good and the bad, the fruitful and the fruitless, all entwined together in the silent heart of the earth
And you judges who would be just,
What judgement pronounce you upon him though honest in the flesh yet is a thief in spirit?
What penalty lay you upon him who slays in the flesh yet is himself slain in the spirit?
And how prosecute you him who in action is a deceiver and an oppressor,
Yet who also is aggrieved and outraged?
And how shall you punish those whose remorse is already greater than their misdeeds?
Is not remorse the justice which is administered by that very law which you would fain serve?
Yet you cannot lay remorse upon the innocent nor lift it from the heart of the guilty.
Unbidden shall it call in the night,that we may wake and gaze upon ourselves.
And you who would understand justice, how shall you unless you look upon all deeds in the fullness of light?
Only then shall you know that the erect and the fallen are but one man standing in twilight etwee the night of his smaller self and the day of his larger self.
And that the corner stone of the temple is not higher than the lowest stone in its foundation.

So hopeful, I hope you enjoy this writing and it helps you to gain a perspective that can lift some of this from your shoulders.
your nutty professor. will write again regarding an approach that you might consider.

Hi HP,

I just finished updating my post with the details of Christmas and wanted to pop on and see how things are with you.

You were very much in my thoughts this Holiday! I even bought a bottle of my favorite perfume, wrapped it, and out it under the tree with a tag that read: To: Kily From: HP!

Thnaks for the gift, I loved it!

I hope that you are in better spirits. I look forward to more dialogue and healthier lives in the New Year. I believe that things will turn around for both of us in 2003!

Have fun and SMILE! you are beautiful.

Hi Everyone,
HOpe you all had a great Christmas. I had a nice one, despite my situation.

Christmas Eve xH came to get the kids early evening. He came to the door, and they left. He was pleasant enough, but wouldn't stand still to talk to me for even one minute. He was down the pathway, to his car. He did mention what he was cooking for the kids--after I asked--and I said, "Oh, good."

I spent Christmas Eve alone here , and it was okay. My extended family lives a bit far away, and I was seeing them all the next day. I did some last minute shopping, which was fun--and then I cleaned and continued preparing for Christmas. At 1000 I went to pick up daughter for church. She and her dad were standing out front , on the sidewalk in front of his apartment complex. I pulled up, (double parked--not a busy street_) daughter walked over, and exH didn't come to the car. He usually does. I couldn't even wish him Merry Christmas. By the way, he didn't hug our daughter goodbye. That's his way, he never once in his life saw his own parents embrace, or touch. (His upbringing was very stoic, and not prone to hugs and affection.) Mine was the opposite. Anyway, I shouldn't have, but I said to daughter, "He didn't even say hi to me, can't he treat me as a human being? It's Christmas." Then we started to drive to church. I burst into tears, and we went home instead. I'd never gone to church on Christmas Eve without my exH. Not ever, as I wasn't raised in a church. This complete 'shunning' on Christmas Eve was too much for me. Then daughter said, "Look Mom. He's mad at you. ______ has been out of your life for only five months. We all knew what was going on, your involvement with _______. That's what he's mad at." I didn't argue. So it seems daughter does know about the A, she's no dummy. In my emotional state, I did add-"Well, people forgive every day. I wish he could do it." She said, "I don't think he ever will."

We came home, watched The Nutcracker, (I love ballet) and went to bed. Daughter was very sweet, and we didn't talk about the 'bad' stuff anymore.

On Christmas Day daughter drove her own car to see him, and returned with her brothers at noon. I had no contact with him that day. He hasn't given me a gift since 1999, nor I one to him. (before separation) I wanted to buy him one, but I felt he wouldn't want it, and be mad that I was pressuring him. Perhaps I should buy him something I know he likes, but not for any particular occasion. This is the game I play in my mind, over and over.

I did tell the children, on Christmas Eve Day, that they could certainly tell their dad how much we missed him, and wanted him in our lives more.
They didn't say anything to him, they told me as "Dad doesn't talk about things like that."

Christmas Day was fine with my family here. It was a lot of work, alone (exH was always a great help)--but my children are helpful. I was very proud of how our home looked, sparkling and festive. For Christmas my sister in law gave me a beautiful jewelry piece. This meant a lot to me as she and my brother were almost estranged from me when I told them about the A. (they knew before ExH) We barely saw each other for almost two years. Sister in law could hardly look at me before. It seems they've forgiven me. When I went to bed last night, there was a package on my pillow. My mother had left me something, hidden there. It touched me so that I began to cry at her gesture of kindness.

Checkers,
Thanks for your words on Christmas Eve. I did read them that evening, but just now am responding. I appreciate your sharing of the passage here. What profound words..from The Prophet. I understand them, but I still don't wish to judge my husband (oops ex) for his actions now. He is in too much pain, you know? I just have to give him time. But the writing did give me perspective, thanks.

Part of me does want to say to exH --"Yes, it's Christ's birthday--the One who taught us to forgive, the one who taught us the Lord's Prayer, wasn't He wise?" But I know that wouldn't be the
right or kind thing to do--and certainly not loving.

My mother was upset that he (exH) cooked dinner for the kids, and couldn't have me over , too. Well, that's a mom for you. She felt it was inhumane of him, to let me be alone on Christmas Eve. It is obvious that he doesn't care one bit about my feelings.

My daughter invited her dad here , as I did too, for Christmas Day. She invited him that morning, and the previous evening , too. He never responded to her. He said he was going to go 'hang out' with some people at his work who had to be there that day. AS you said, Kily..they're making their choices.

What approach are you thinking of, Checkers? Please feel free to tell me.

KILY,
Thanks for thinking of me. You're so sweet, what kind of perfume did I get you? Aren't perfumes wonderful!

I read your post, and replied there already. I am so happy with how your day was. Many, many good things for you--it seems that this year will be something much better for you and me, I agree.

I do love Christmas , and it is so joyful to see people's faces when opening gifts. I do wish I'd bought more for everyone. With having the celebration here, I was so caught up in details of cleaning and food.

I couldn't sleep well last night. I think I ate too many rich foods. I so want to send emails to my exH , but it doesn't seem good to do, either. He never responds at all. He's always been so uncommunicative. I used to write letters to his family, for him, as he hates to write. He would sit for an hour, and come up with three lines.

On Christmas Eve I sat here and typed him a LONG letter, but never sent it. I don't know how to act with him. He's off for two weeks now, but has made no extra plans with the kids. This is how he is. I was always the plan maker, the organizer, etc.

Time to get going around here. Thanks for your responses, Kily and Checkers.

God Bless,
H_P

H_P,

Why don't you write to your exH? Why didn't you get him a present? Since 1999 you two have not exchanged presents? H_P if you want things to change you need to change things. You are not doing that. I don't know if your exh can forgive you, but I do know you can change how you treat him. You are acting with him as you did when you were in the affair. How could he see any changes in you.

I wouldn't put too much stock in your D's comment that he won't ever forgive you. Kids tend to think us OLD FOLKS <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> can never change. Your H can change but he needs a reason to do so.
You have to provide the reason, you need to move him from withdrawal back into conflict about all of this.

As for him opening up, forget it. It won't happen if it ever does until he feels save. You two are a long way from him feeling save with you.

HP, please sit down and think of all of the things you quit doing when you started your affair and start doing them again. He needs to see a change in you.

I am glad you had a good Christmas. I'll talk to you next week.

God Bless,

JL

HP-

Is there some way that you can get the courage up to ask H for a small get together on New Year's Eve. You can explain to him that you didn't want to impose on him during the holidays but that you wanted to start a NEW tradition with him of toasting in the New Year as friends. Maybe an early dinner, or coffee or something?

Tell him that you want his FRIENDSHIP and if he can't give you more, that it is okay with you. Let him know that you want his presence in your life, and that the NC thing is really hurting you.

I bought a book called "Make up, Don't Break Up". Maybe you should try reading it. It explains a lot of things, especially about JL's theory of touching, and why men "stonewall" (This appears to be what your husband is doing).

Hope things are well with you. I will miss you in New York tomorrow.....

Hi JL,
Thanks for taking time to respond . I appreciate it so much.

I did, by the way, send that note off via email to my ex-husband. I added some more, yesterday. It was quite wordy, to say the least. Basically I professed my love for him, and talked about how much we'd lost, AND how much we had, for years and years. I told him what the kids have told me, too--things they don't talk about with him.

You asked me why I don't write,JL. I don't write often as he told me 'I need my space', and "You're making me feel pressured." This is what he told me last August. I send him an email about once a week, and I always put in that I love him, miss him, and want him.

JL, I will send him a gift. It is not too late for a holiday gift, or a gift 'just because'. It will be a pleasant surprise for him, hopefully. Today I'll send Christmas goodies over with my children.

I think what scares me most of all is his complete apathy to the situation. It's like his emotional love center, for me, is completely destroyed. He said he fell in love with me when I was only 14--and now it appears to be gone. JL, forgive me for repeating it, but it is so hard to read of BS's here who forgive after even multiple A's. He knows me, he knows my background, and once he mentioned he was at fault , too. I told him he wasn't, that I was the one who messed up.

I think I know why he said he was at fault. For years in our marriage I had wanted more attention and desire from him. Part of the problem was I didn't work outside the home, and I think I had a lot of time to think about 'things'. Now I would be too drained to dwell upon him not wanting me enough, etc. Plus I've seen the flip side now, and I see how little an individual's sex drive has to do with their feelings of love,caring, and devotion for the partner. This problem I'd created in my head was made worse by the fact that I generated quite a bit of male attention , but not much from him, or so I thought, at all. His drive was always below mine, and I felt unappreciated. (Plus, as I mentioned--no outside job, so energy has to go somewhere.) I said to him, sadly, many times--"You're the only person I can express this part of me with , what do you want me to do with it, my feelings and SN's?" We did go to counseling for it, but towards the end of our marriage before the A, I had accepted him for who he was, and didn't care anymore if he was on fire all the time or not. I'd matured and accepted him, and realized how dumb I'd been. It was going well, then we got a computer.

This sounds very much like an excuse, but if it hadn't been for the internet and chat rooms, AND my stupidity, I never would have had an A . I never would have had those conversations in person with a man. It started out as 'friendship', and went deeper over time. When I first met OM online exH and I were having the best part of our marriage ever. Our kids were getting older, and the SN issues had settled down for me. It was all very nice, and wonderful. I've told exH about my feelings of how it started and the internet, and he did agree that people can be who they want to be through a computer. Sorry to go on here, but I needed to sort that out. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I don't know how to give my exH a reason to change his feelings. He honestly seems to like being alone in his little place. No 'honey do's', no yard to maintain, no conversations to be bothered with . As base as this sounds, I'd like to just go do what comes naturally for a woman with a man, as I'm sure he's been 'alone' now for YEARS. But my fear is he will push me away, in anger. Plus it just sounds too overwhelming--he'll think,"Yes, she is the wh+++ I thought she was, after finding out about the A". Yes, we were married, but this is how I fear he sees me. I was a very chaste young lady, especially in a time when 'everybody' (late 70's in college, early 80's) was so loose. But all this has been undone now, in his mind.

JL_ how can I move him into conflict? Tell me that? Daily love notes? Daily calls? I don't know what to do , without being a pest.

I thought about what I did before the A. They were probably mostly about providing affection, SN fulfillment, conversation, food, gifts, and companionship. I guess at this point I can only provide the ones that go one way, as it's hard to converse when someone is walking away. You can't be a companion to someone who doesn't want you near them.

Must go now, as I'm needed in my home.

Thanks again for your help,
H_P

Hi JL,
Thanks for taking time to respond . I appreciate it so much.

I did, by the way, send that note off via email to my ex-husband. I added some more, yesterday. It was quite wordy, to say the least. Basically I professed my love for him, and talked about how much we'd lost, AND how much we had, for years and years. I told him what the kids have told me, too--things they don't talk about with him.

You asked me why I don't write,JL. I don't write often as he told me 'I need my space', and "You're making me feel pressured." This is what he told me last August. I send him an email about once a week, and I always put in that I love him, miss him, and want him.

JL, I will send him a gift. It is not too late for a holiday gift, or a gift 'just because'. It will be a pleasant surprise for him, hopefully. Today I'll send Christmas goodies over with my children.

I think what scares me most of all is his complete apathy to the situation. It's like his emotional love center, for me, is completely destroyed. He said he fell in love with me when I was only 14--and now it appears to be gone. JL, forgive me for repeating it, but it is so hard to read of BS's here who forgive after even multiple A's. He knows me, he knows my background, and once he mentioned he was at fault , too. I told him he wasn't, that I was the one who messed up.

I think I know why he said he was at fault. For years in our marriage I had wanted more attention and desire from him. Part of the problem was I didn't work outside the home, and I think I had a lot of time to think about 'things'. Now I would be too drained to dwell upon him not wanting me enough, etc. Plus I've seen the flip side now, and I see how little an individual's sex drive has to do with their feelings of love,caring, and devotion for the partner. This problem I'd created in my head was made worse by the fact that I generated quite a bit of male attention , but not much from him, or so I thought, at all. His drive was always below mine, and I felt unappreciated. (Plus, as I mentioned--no outside job, so energy has to go somewhere.) I said to him, sadly, many times--"You're the only person I can express this part of me with , what do you want me to do with it, my feelings and SN's?" We did go to counseling for it, but towards the end of our marriage before the A, I had accepted him for who he was, and didn't care anymore if he was on fire all the time or not. I'd matured and accepted him, and realized how dumb I'd been. It was going well, then we got a computer.

This sounds very much like an excuse, but if it hadn't been for the internet and chat rooms, AND my stupidity, I never would have had an A . I never would have had those conversations in person with a man. It started out as 'friendship', and went deeper over time. When I first met OM online exH and I were having the best part of our marriage ever. Our kids were getting older, and the SN issues had settled down for me. It was all very nice, and wonderful. I've told exH about my feelings of how it started and the internet, and he did agree that people can be who they want to be through a computer. Sorry to go on here, but I needed to sort that out. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I don't know how to give my exH a reason to change his feelings. He honestly seems to like being alone in his little place. No 'honey do's', no yard to maintain, no conversations to be bothered with . As base as this sounds, I'd like to just go do what comes naturally for a woman with a man, as I'm sure he's been 'alone' now for YEARS. But my fear is he will push me away, in anger. Plus it just sounds too overwhelming--he'll think,"Yes, she is the wh+++ I thought she was, after finding out about the A". Yes, we were married, but this is how I fear he sees me. I was a very chaste young lady, especially in a time when 'everybody' (late 70's in college, early 80's) was so loose. But all this has been undone now, in his mind.

JL_ how can I move him into conflict? Tell me that? Daily love notes? Daily calls? I don't know what to do , without being a pest.

I thought about what I did before the A. They were probably mostly about providing affection, SN fulfillment, conversation, food, gifts, and companionship. I guess at this point I can only provide the ones that go one way, as it's hard to converse when someone is walking away. You can't be a companion to someone who doesn't want you near them.

Must go now, as I'm needed in my home.

Thanks again for your help,
H_P

Hopeful Person-

I could really use your help. I am a BS (Man) and want badly for my W to have the same attitude as you.

Is there anything I can do

H_P,

You have asked alot of questions. I really don't have the answers to them, but I can offer my opinions. Some of this we have discussed before, but it doesn't hurt to go over things a few more times.

You said/asked </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">L, I will send him a gift. It is not too late for a holiday gift, or a gift 'just because'. It will be a pleasant surprise for him, hopefully. Today I'll send Christmas goodies
over with my children. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think this might be a good idea.

On a slightly different topic you mentioned that your OD is aware of the A and that your exH is very angry. If she is this aware of things, then perhaps you need to sit down and really talk with her. She may have a few things she needs to get out, a few questions to ask, and finally she may really need to hear how you feel about her Dad and how you are dealing with things yourself.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think what scares me most of all is his complete apathy to the situation. It's like his emotional love center, for me, is completely destroyed. He said he fell in love with me when I was only 14--and now it appears to be gone.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">H_P what you say might well be true. He has had 4 years to handle this and to say the least he has had to erect some strong walls to survive. However, I don't think he has FORGOTTEN how he felt about you. He may not LET himself feel that way about you now.

You cannot really expect him to carry a torch for you for 4 years when it was being rubbed in his face that you had chosen another man? Actually, you did. You stated as much earlier, but it wasn't reality. What we are talking about is starting a NEW relationship with him. Remembering the past and thinking he will act on it is not the way to approach this in my opinion. You also need to consider this as well. In starting over is he the man you would chose. You see memories are great, but they only help so much. That is why I have been pushing you to be more proactive. I'll touch on this later.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> JL, forgive me for repeating it, but it is so hard to read of BS's here who forgive after even multiple A's.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I suspect if he had found MB even two years ago, he might very well have been like many of the BS here. But, the time of this thing has forced him to make his accomodations with life. He has decided to settle for what he has. Not what might have been.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He knows me, he knows my background, and once he mentioned he was at fault , too. I told him he wasn't, that I was the one who messed up.

I think I know why he said he was at fault. For years in our marriage I had wanted more attention and desire from him. Part of the problem was I didn't work outside the home, and I think I had a lot of time to think about 'things'. Now I would be too drained to dwell upon him not wanting me enough, etc. Plus I've seen the flip side now, and I see how little an individual's sex drive has to do with their feelings of love,caring, and devotion for the partner. This problem I'd created in my head was made worse by the fact that I generated quite a bit of male attention , but not much from him, or so I thought, at all. His drive was always below mine, and I felt unappreciated. (Plus, as I mentioned--no outside job, so energy has to go somewhere.) I said to him, sadly, many times--"You're the only person I can express this part of me with , what do you want me to do with it, my feelings and SN's?" We did go to counseling for it, but towards the end of our marriage before the A, I had accepted him for who he was, and didn't care anymore if he was on fire all the time or not. I'd matured and accepted him, and realized how dumb I'd been. It was going well, then we got a computer. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">H_P there is a lot here, and I have many thoughts on what you said. First, consider that for most of the marriage he has gotten a message that he wasn't making you happy. You had accepted him, but I doubt that he felt that. Then the A starts. So, if we take this rather depressing vision of your marriage as reality for just a moment, would you want to come back to it if you were in his shoes? Let's see: deal with a 4 year affair, and the fact that I never made her happy, let's see...

One of the great ironies of these situations seems to me is that duriing an A the WS sees the worst in the marriage, the BS recalls the best. Then it swings around once the A ends. It is often this way. Within the walls of his heart he is probably focusing on the worst parts now, it helps him bury his feelings for you, just as you did when you had your A and most WS's do.

Now, if you think about this and from your reading here you can see that this situation is one that can be change or at least has the potential to change. You have swung through it yourself.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This sounds very much like an excuse, but if it hadn't been for the internet and chat rooms, AND my stupidity, I never would have had an A . </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, H_P it doesn't sound like an excuse. It sounds like a reason, and path. But, you are forgetting that your A supplied something you needed at the time or it is unlikely it would have lasted as long as it did. This something was something your H wasn't supplying. It doesn't justify the A either, but we are looking for reasons, right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I never would have had those conversations in person with a man. It started out as 'friendship', and went deeper over time. When I first met OM online exH and I were having the best part of our marriage ever. Our kids were getting older, and the SN issues had settled down for me. It was all very nice, and wonderful. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You see this would scare your exH alot. It was as good as it had been in years and yet the affair happened anyway. He wasn't good enough to keep you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I don't know how to give my exH a reason to change his feelings. He honestly seems to like being alone in his little place. No 'honey do's', no yard to maintain, no conversations to be bothered with .</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't glamorize where he is at. I don't think you would enjoy his journey as much as you think he has. My bet is he has come to accept his lot. He is "enjoying" not doing these things, but there was and still may be a time when he would have done them gladly to make YOU happy.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As base as this sounds, I'd like to just go do what comes naturally for a woman with a man, as I'm sure he's been 'alone' now for YEARS. But my fear is he will push me away, in anger. Plus it just sounds too overwhelming--he'll think,"Yes, she is the wh+++ I thought she was, after finding out about the A". Yes, we were married, but this is how I fear he sees me. I was a very chaste young lady, especially in a time when 'everybody' (late 70's in college,
early 80's) was so loose. But all this has been undone now, in his mind. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know I would recommend that you do what comes naturally <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> , but I think you might scare him to death right now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> JL_ how can I move him into conflict? Tell me that? Daily love notes? Daily calls? I don't know what to do , without being a pest.

I thought about what I did before the A. They were probably mostly about providing affection, SN fulfillment, conversation, food, gifts, and companionship. I guess at this point I can only provide the ones that go one way, as it's hard to converse when someone is walking away. You can't be a companion to someone who doesn't want you near them. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How to move him into conflict??? Not easy as you know. But, my guess is to become his friend, be around him as much as you can. Let me ask you something. If you saw some guy that you sort of "fancied" to use Lisa's term. How would you proceed to develop a relationship? You cannot do it by being afraid to talk, write, or give gifts. You have to break the ice, perhaps be a bit forward, and also sort of alouf. That is my thoughts on this.

One of the things I find most interesting is that you weren't afriad to contact the OM, talk with him at length, and proceed from there. Yet, you worry about sending your exH (a man you say you love) a gift. You are more up tight with your exH than you were with OM. It seems to me you must relax. You must let time take it's course. ANd you must start to be around him more.

If he starts to feel anything you will see behavior similar to Kily's situation. Lots of conflict. If your exh starts feeling things inside he will be scared to death. Why? You made a fool of him once and he doesn't want to be in that situation again. He doesn't want to fail again, and my bet is that his memory of your marriage is one of continual failure.

So my point here is to talk as little about the past as you can. Stop apologizing for the past. THere may come a time when another apology is warrented. It is the future you need to start focusing on, and if you have interactions with him concentrate on the future. The past is past. Yup, it led to this mess, but he will need to see the future with you as something good, not more of the same from the past. How will this happen?? I don't know, but it is most likely to happen if you treat him well. You make him feel good. You make sure that people KNOW you want HIM. Not everyone on the planet, but those close to him that know what he has gone through. This starts with your own children, especially OD. You cannot put them in the middle but they do let each of you know how the other is feelings.

Well, this has gotten long and confused. I just hope something I said is of use.

God Bless,

JL

H_P,

Just reading and thinking about you. Sounds like you are getting lots of good advice. It also seems to me that you are really working through a lot of issues. I do believe the more you try to understand things from both sides the easier things will become.

I also have to agree 4 years is a long time. I know this is something you really want. But, my H has been only gone a year and I am almost to the point of feeling I could never take him back. I think the BS has to get to that point to have a life. So I have to agree with JL that you need to focus more on starting over than what is past. I have almost no doubt that your H thinks about this whole thing a lot. Which may be one reason he seems aloof and angry. It is protection. He had to feel that way towards you to deal with the pain of what happened. It may take awhile for him to let the wall down. I think he may feel that you are trying to rush things, not something I would want to do in his situation. Take your time and show you care in little ways. Start ever so small and build a firm foundation. I think he will need time to come to realize that this is "real" with you and not desperation. I think it is good that your D says he is angry. Anger is not the opposite of love. You say he is apathetic towards you. But that is not what he shows your children. I think he is still healing. He probably never really faced this, just pushed it all underneath.

I don't know if any of this makes sense. I just don't want you to feel so down or that your efforts are fruitless. I don't believe that. I think time is what you both need.

Take good care of yourself. I think of you often and always keep up on your posts. I don't post too often anymore. I just wanted offer some of my thoughts. I really wish all the best for you.

Sharon

Dear H_P

I have been meaning to drop by and write a few words for a very long time, but not quite sure what has happened, and why I haven't managed to do that. Lack of time around the festive season I guess. Anyway, enough of the excuses.

H_P, one thing that hits me in the face about your situation is that, to a certain extent, you do have to have interaction with your XH. By this I mean you have the children in common. There is always this bond, and always this link of communication which is something that will hold you together in a certain way. I am not for one minute suggesting you use your children in any way, but for me and my H, there is no link. He is living in his flat and becoming more distant daily. I so understood the things you were talking about in your last post. How do I behave without irritating him, getting on his nerves, behaving as a pest etc? The other biggy is why oh why are there BS's on here crying out for the effort we are trying to put in and our H's don't want it?

H_P, you are becoming more thoughtful and challenging in all of your posts that I read - not just challenging your own behaviour but that of your H and how to deal with it in relation to your R. This is very positive, and although he may not say anything, I am sure that he will start to see changes in you. I feel in your posts that you are as scared as I of "doing the wrong thing". I honestly feel that I can't do right for doing wrong all the time. But what you must realise and is something that hit me forcibly during the eyes this holiday is that YOU AND YOUR H ARE IN DIFFERENT PLACES. This has probably been said to you in many different ways, but was very simplistic for me and easy to understand and I hope it may ring a bell for you.

I am sorry that your holiday was tinged with sadness, but that there were positives such as your SIL and the kindness of your Mum - Mum's are great aren't they!!

Take care H_P, and I do so hope that your 2003 will be positive and rewarding for you.

Wishing you the very best from rainy London.

Lisa

Hi Everyone,
Thanks for your kind responses, you're all so helpful to me.

I hope I'll have the privacy here to comment fully on each of your insightful responses. If this ends quickly--please accept my apologies in advance. It merely will mean that I don't have privacy anymore.

I've thought a lot about my exH the last few days, as usual. He'll be taking our children on a day outing in a few days, to a place I've always wanted to go to. I'd like to ask him if I may go along, but on the other hand I don't know if it's so good as it's an 'all day' sort of thing. What do you all think? If I didn't ask to go there, I was thinking of asking him for dinner that evening, upon their return. Which sounds better?

Kily,
Glad to hear from you. I thought of you yesterday, with your GTG in New York City. I think it's wonderful that many of you met there. Hope you had a nice time. I've never been on or near the east coast, at all, ever.

You asked me about asking him over for New Year's Eve. I will do that, or invite myself on that outing--as mentioned above. Which do you think sounds better, from his point of view?

I have told him, of course, many times that I want his presence in my life. He knows I'm really hurt by NC, but at this point he is protecting himself, I believe. I don't think he cares how I feel, and he's justified, I suppose.

I'll look for that book. Thanks for the suggestion. It's hard for me to even touch exH's arm, he stays SO FAR away from me. I've often read about different cultures' comfort zones as far as conversation. Gosh, he's standing so far away--farther than ANY culture would find as acceptable. I guess I could 'aggress', and get closer. It seems he retreats, and keeps the distance wide. But I'll buy the book, it sounds great.

Rlyhurtin,
Thanks for your response, too. I am sorry for what you're going through. I'll respond to what you're asking on your thread. Hope that's okay. Take care, and once again I'm sorry for your situation--life can be so challenging, to say the least.

JL,
Thanks for your thoughtful response. IT's so nice of you to take the time to answer my previous very long post!

As I mentioned before, I did write to my exH via email. As always, no response. I bet I've sent 15 electronic mails and cards in the past months, with nary a response.

I also did send him a gift that I purchased . He hasn't received it yet, and I hope he likes it.

I like the way , JL, that you mentioned we've discussed some of these things before. You're so right! Thanks though for the patience to talk about them again. I appreciate it!

It's strange, to give things and send notes to someone, and never get a response. I didn't get a response at all regarding the 'goody' stuff I sent over, at all. (four different kinds of homemade holiday delectables)

Don't laugh, but I try to look at it now very philosophically. It's an act of love, to do something nice--and expect nothing in return, isn't it? I know I shouldn't be this old and have just figured this out, but this is how I see it. I have certainly done nice things for someone before in my life, without 'expecting' anything in return. Do it all the time with people, daily. But I think this is the first time I've done something nice for a MAN without getting any response. I've never had to work hard at it, at all.

Just to quickly mention--some of my friends think I'm nuts to still care about this man. They think I'm swallowing my pride, to do all this for someone who basically has shunned me, on the street. Well, I simply said, " I love him, and I still need to try my best to show him that." Many of these friends have the opinion to just move on, forget about him, and find someone else. I can't look at it that way at all at this point.

One friend said to me, "I'm the kind of person, if I have a conflict with you --or anyone else--I have to 'fix' it, or I can't think straight. This is just how I am..always! " You know, I think I used to be that way, too, when I was much younger. Now I realize that life can't always be 'fixed' by a conversation, or many conversations. You have to be patient, quiet, and just let time heal a bit.

Thanks for the input on dealing with my D. WE are quite close, and we do talk deeply about the situation. I just don't like to say too much, as I know it's painful for her, too.

You're right, JL..when you say

" He has had 4 years to handle this and to say the least he has had to erect some strong walls to survive. However, I don't think he has FORGOTTEN how he felt about you. He may not LET himself feel that way about you now."

You're right. What an idiot I was. I remember about 1 month after DDay he DID tell me he was jealous . Why was I so much in a 'fog', as they say , that I didn't at that point rid myself of OM. At that point OM was living far away, and it was all just pure fantasy based. I don't know what I was thinking. It makes me feel so ashamed--OM was living under the same roof with his wife--for almost a YEAR after my kind husband moved out. (in his own room, OM was living..., he said, who cares though....I was like a weekend pasttime to him, I think)

Also, about 2 months after DDay exH did come over and talk to me about my opinion on a job offer he had-a promotion. Obviously at that point, he did still care. You're so right about how the feelings flip flop with the BS and WS. It so much did here. He didn't DIRECTLY ask me to love him again, at that point--but by saying he was jealous, and asking me my opinion--he did show some feelings for me, I see that now.

You're right, too. He has told me that I made him feel like a failure, throughout the marriage. Constant reassurances didn't help undo criticism of his laid back attitudes. I've told him recently, of course, how wrong I was. I've told him I was immature, and selfish at times. But one of my favorite quotes is,(don't know who said it)

"A team of wild horses can not take back the spoken word."

You said,

" But, you are forgetting that your A supplied something you needed at the time or it is unlikely it would have lasted as long as it did. This something was something your H wasn't supplying. It doesn't justify the A either, but we are looking for reasons, right? "

You're right. It did supply conversation--that I'll say. IT also supplied my need to feel desired, and wanted STRONGLY. Affection, yes--not SN. In the end though, I realized it was all a big mistake--based on my fantasy of who this man was, and not actually who he REALLY was. Furthermore, my feelings for my husband began surfacing again, very strongly.

You're absolutely right, JL, when you said,

"Don't glamorize where he is at. I don't think you would enjoy his journey as much as you think he has. My bet is he has come to accept his lot."

This is so sad, but true. I really have a hard time living with myself, very often, for the way I treated him. I can see how he feels, completely. I was like a monster, really,to do this.

Then you asked,

"If you saw some guy that you sort of "fancied" to use Lisa's term. How would you proceed to develop a relationship? You cannot do it by being afraid to talk, write, or give gifts. You have to break the ice, perhaps be a bit forward, and also sort of aloof. That is my thoughts on this."

You're right. If he were simply a man I knew, and I 'fancied' him--to be serious--by this point I would have given up on him, or I would have been considered an obsessive stalker. (being tongue in cheek here, but you get my point) On the other hand, if I can somehow erase the past several months of rejection, mentally, I can 'start over' with how I'd treat a man I fancied. Probably asking him over for dinner would be a start, or again out to coffee. (ironically, between exH and I 'cup of coffee' has ANOTHER meaning, but he's not ready for THAT--as you said, JL, I might scare him to death.)
The truth is, in thinking here, I've never pursued a man before in my life.

You mentioned that I was 'brave' enough to call OM, etc, so why couldn't I be brave enough to pursue a man I love. You're right, but please remember that calling OM was filled with encouraging, ego-stroking,romantic responses---and calling exH is usually a one word answer, no questions, no conversation--and it's almost always 'NO' to any request of company. It's like a knife going through my heart, when I get no response from him. It does make me very uptight, you're right, as I have so much of my heart in it. With OM, it was fantasy--adventure. Truly, that sounds pathetic, but it was. OM was from a culture that is known for their romantic behavior, need I say more as far as the fantasy/escape aspect? He was a 'smooth operator', so opposite of what I was used to.

Just as an aside, a few weeks ago I ran into an old girlfriend who coincidentally was from the same country as OM. I hadn't seen her since before the A started , years ago. She said she'd heard I was with someone from her land, and she was worried, she said, as she 'knows' how these men are. But she did say, "These men and women from there, they will love you to death--so much passion,romance--, and when they're mad, or it's over--it's the opposite. The whole country is about over-reaction." Politically, one can see this, too. I don't mean to be indulgent to bring that up here, as this isn't about OM. It only reminded me, especially now, of your earlier question JL, about what needs OM fulfilled. He was certainly the opposite of my exH. Many people commented on this. He was very expressive, full of talking,passion--expressive emotion. Affectionate completely. When we were together, at a restaurant, for example-- it was like I was HIS--arm around me, enveloped. It was CAPTIVATING, as I never had this from my stoic exH. Then after awhile, the R with the OM became what it truly was--smothering, stifling, based on only one thing, and no respect for me, only lies and 'talk',lip service. But I must admit, the affection, the sheer enjoyment of OM touching me in a loving way--and I don't mean SN--was wonderful! OM always said his wife hated affection, and he loved how I enjoyed it. My exH was not much of a toucher, either. JL-you mentioned how well men respond to this-touching. Don't you think that some respond better than others, men and women? I must be like a man that way.

You said,
"If your exh starts feeling things inside he will be scared to death. Why? You made a fool of him once and he doesn't want to be in that situation again. He doesn't want to fail again, and my bet is that his memory of your marriage is one of continual failure."

As I mentioned above, you're right. He does think he failed. I don't know how to undo that.

I will quit apologizing , you're right. When I ask him out, should I preface it with, "I won't talk about our R, that's not why I want to go out with you." Is that too direct?

You also said,

"You cannot put them in the middle but they do let each of you know how the other is feelings."

I ask my children how exH is doing, how he's feeling. I don't think he asks a thing about me. I know him, he never asks questions.

BTW, your response wasn't confusing at all. It was very helpful. Thanks so much, sorry this one is so long and disjointed!

Sharon,
You're so right, four years is a LONG time. I can't believe it, myself. I appreciate what you said,

"But, my H has been only gone a year and I am almost to the point of feeling I could never take him back. I think the BS has to get to that point to have a life. So I have to agree with JL that you need to focus more on starting over than what is past."

Perhaps that is why he is aloof, protection. I need to relax more, and think about the future. FOr me, the new year can be symbolic for that. I would hope that exH could think that way, too--however, he's never been into holidays and symbolism.

You mentioned too that time might help him to see this is real, and not desperation. I pray he does see that. I don't feel desperate at all, I just see what I've lost. He is such a wonderful man, and a great father. I know he always wanted to please me, but I probably didn't tell him--or know--exactly how .

I think of you, too. You sound very strong. I didn't realize that your H has been gone a year, and here it's written by your signature with each posting. I admire your strength and wisdom. Hope your second job is going well, too.

HI Lisa,
Nice to hear from you, too. I've been following your thread, too.

You're correct, we do have the children in common. They're older now though, so we don't have too much to discuss. They're all good kids, great grades--no huge problems, thank goodness. You're right though, that bond helps a lot. In fact, exH told me once that if it weren't for the kids once he knew of OM he would have "walked away and NEVER looked back at me again, at all."

Yes, you're so right--the dilemna of not being a pest, vs. giving them their 'space'. I suppose we have to look at it as their way of protection, not as a true rejection of us. That is to say, my exH has NEVER said to me, "Get lost, never call me again except regarding the kids, and no more mushy cards or emails." If he said that, I would respect it. When I told him I'd ask him out again, in the future, he said, "Okay." So, we just need to give them time . I'll admit, Lisa, I'm chicken to ask him out. I hate the 'no'. But if I don't ask him, nothing will ever change. I think my exH wants me to feel the rejection he felt. I understand that. Maybe he doesn't even realize this, on a conscious level, but perhaps this is what is going on a bit.

He and I are in different places--thanks for the way you explained it.

This holiday was better than last year, and the year before--really. No OM made it better. Yes, the love of my mum and my SIL helped so much. SIL is still very nice to my exH, as is my brother. They invite him over. SIL thinks (or she did so in August) that I want my exH due to 'rebound' effect. I told her, "Rebound would be like if I went out and got a NEW guy." But SIL is a lot younger than me, and I don't think she's really trying to understand the dynamics of an A. She feels no marriage is worth saving, if there's an A. I would hope that brother and SIL could help me in this reconciliation attempt , but they are stoic people too, and they would NEVER bring up my R with ExH to exH. They just aren't that way at all.

This is so long, sorry everyone.

Take care, and thanks again for your help, you're all wonderful. I can't express enough how much you're all helped me.
H_P

H_P,

Hi again. I was just reading through and something hit me that I have never thought of before. Perhaps someone else has mentioned it, if so sorry.

You talk about asking your H out and wanting to be close to him and do things with him. I know his response is always NO.

Maybe you need to approach things in a different manner. Try asking him for help in things. Make him know that you NEED him. Not just that you WANT him. I don't know exactly how you would do this, but maybe he is treatened by the implications of "dating" you. Maybe the pressure would be less for him if he was just "doing a favor". You have probably become independent in this 4 years, maybe he doesn't feel needed. Orchid talks about how here H thought she was too independent so she had to become dependent.

Maybe this would help you to start connecting on some levels that are less relationship and more friendship based.

I think you mentioned something about you asking for help figuring out presents. I know he didn't come across but maybe if you continue at this lower level of expectation he won't feel so pressured.

You could involve the kids in this. So it isn't all about you and him.

You mentioned he has never flat out told you to get lost. That is telling. I think he is definitely conflicted. I think my H is too. But I don't even think he knows it. Could your H be in the same fog. My H is semi-stoic himself. They don't want to look deep for answers. My H is very surface, but deep down, I know he is hurting. I just wish he would let me in. I know you wish the same thing.

It is a real tragedy what has happened in our families. I pray in the new year we can find peace in our lives and with our families.

Btw, my job is good but I might have to start looking again. Things are a little unstable right now. Hope you are not working too hard.

Take care friend,

Sharon

Hi HP,

I've only been gone for two days and look at what's happened!! WOW, so much has transpired in your posts and I wasn't here to help! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

It sounds like you are in a diferent place than you were a week ago. You sound hopeful and willing to fight again instead of lost and dismal. I'm really glad to read it.

I'm not certain if asking to go to this "place" that you've been wanting to go will be successful. It certainly will not hurt you to try. My feeling on it is that it might be too close to a "family" outing and THAT would be very painful to your H, based on what you've presented about his personality. I think asking him out for a quick dinner is the best thing. This way you are both out of your OWN environments, and the conversation can stay light and fun. I think your wording was pretty appropriate in that you want to start establishing contact just to have him in your life. NO STRINGS ATTACHED! Let him know that you are hurting from losing his input into your life, and that being friends is acceptible even if that is all it can ever be. Tell him that he is valued for HIM, not because you NEED something from him.

New York was really fun. I met some wonderful people there, and DS was behaved pretty well considering we had to wait over an hour to be seated. I only wish that we all had MORE time to talk with each other. If there was another GET TOGETHER, I would definately go again......

You are ALWAYS welcome if you decide you want to spend some time on the shore. I live less than 100 feet from the ocean....

Hi,
Thanks Kily and Sharon for your responses, I'll have to address them at a later time.

Please consider this posting more of a 'rant', I don't usually feel this way, but I'm feeling like it today.

Just wanted to say that I DID invite xH over for dinner, after tomorrow's outing with the kids. He said, "NO THANKS!" I then said--this is on the phone--"I can't think of anything else I had to tell you,Bye" At this point my voice was breaking up, and I'm sure he could tell. He said, "Bye" and it almost sounded like his voice was tinged with throat tightening emotion, too. That was that.

I got off and cried a long time. Oldest child, daughter, came in and we at least had a heartfelt conversation about the divorce, and OM. I said, OM was a 'stupid' thing to do--, so to speak. SHe said, "It was beyond stupid." She cried too, and I am glad she got it out. She asked me if I'd told her dad that i saw it as a mistake, and of course I said 'Yes, yes, many times."

I still can't believe my xH doesn't wish to forgive me, or try to work on R. WE both have two weeks off now, I thought perhaps during this time there could be some time together. What a joke I am, even thinking this.

I remembered this morning that during our marriage, I told him I needed to hear the words, "I need you", and "I want you". He could never say either sentence to me.

I am beginning to feel as Kily does, on this day--as she mentioned in her thread--"Why do I really want to save this anyway?"

Thanks for letting me spew this out here.

I'll respond more later on what you two have said said since my last LONG posting, from yesterday.

I wonder if xH will receive the gift I had shipped to him, today. I know I'll never even receive a thank you for it. C'est la vie.

Sorry for the rant,
HP

HP,

I'm sorry that things happened this way, but I think that the outcome of the whole thing was VERY positive.

I know how hard it is to believe, but you actually made a step in a forward direction. Yes, your husband turned your offer down. Guess what, it doesn't matter! You took a BRAVE step forward by letting down your guard and taking a chance! Keep at it! He will HAVE to say YES at some point.

I think that this opened a door to your healing that you weren't sure if you wanted to open. The fact that you were able to share your vulnerabiltiy and feelings with your "D" was a very profound moment. Don't view your husband's reaction in a negative light, think about the decline from your husband as the "gift" that allowed you to let your daughter see what really is happening. If noting else, it will leave a lasting lesson for her to draw from when her own times of trials occur.

He needs time AND consistancy. You need to love yourself......

You have an entire lifetime to repair what has been broken. This is just a small baby step in the grand scheme of things.

Smile. I love you and am rooting for you.

Hi H_P,

I've been following your posts and I'm so sorry that you are feeling so down right now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I still can't believe my xH doesn't wish to forgive me, or try to work on R. WE both have two weeks off now, I thought perhaps during this time there could be some time together. What a joke I am, even thinking this.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You thoughts & desires are NOT a joke and there is nothing wrong with wanting your H's forgiveness. Stay strong and SHOW your H with your ACTIONS that you are willing to earn his forgiveness.

My FWS and I are doing well, but there are still times that I have to forgive her whenever a trigger or hurtful thought from the past pops up... I hope and pray that your H can one day come to forgive you.

Don't give up!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Semper Fi,
RIF90