H_P, Thanks for your post to me. I think of you all the time too. I know we BS feel pain but, and I hope you take this the right way, in a way I think your pain now that you have realized your mistake must be greater somehow. I cannot imagine it. I really feel for you and want you to know I respect your courage and the fact that you are willing to put your heart out there and swallow your pride and try to right the wrong you have done. Not all are willing to do what you are doing. I think it requires a great stength of character. I know that sounds funny. But it is so much easier to justify our mistakes than to face them and do something about them. I think in the long run whatever the outcome with your H you will be a happier person because of what you are doing. You will have the peace of mind of knowing you, like many BS, are doing all you can do.

Take care of yourself. I am really tired. I guess I had better scoot. I just didn't want to sign off without a word of thanks and encouragement to you.

Sharon

<small>[ December 31, 2002, 03:58 AM: Message edited by: footballwidow ]</small>

H_P,

I wanted to wish you a Happy New Year. I think this year is going to be a watershed year for you. You have done some very good but very hard things in the last half of the year.

I would also like to remind you that you have only be apart from OM 5 -> 6 months. I suspect it seems longer to you, but it isn't. Your H hasn't had much time to readjust his thinking or to come to beleive that OM is really out of your life.

Frankly, it is much easier for him to assume the worst than to go back into a relationship with you, but I think if you are consistent that he will come around. It seems to me in the last few weeks, he is showing you how it feels to be rejected and not wanted. It has been 4 years for him and a short time for you. If you continue he will tire of this game or he will come out and TELL YOU TO LEAVE HIM ALONE. He hasn't done that. He has said he needs time or give it time.

My hope is that you see the positives in his ambivelence. He has to swallow a lot of pride. He has to lose a lot of pain. I think it may happen. Then you will have a chance to build a good friendship and hopefully a loving relationship again.

Time and patience HP. I wish you both this New Year.

God Bless,

JL

Thanks to all of you for your replies . I very much appreciate your time and support!

Happy New Year to all of you too, wherever you happen to be!

I told exH in an email a few days back that no matter how he treated me at this point, it didn't change my love for him. Perhaps that set me up to be a 'doormat', but I don't think so. What I was trying to convey to him was that --and I mentioned this--that I understood his feelings right now, and even if he didn't feel love for me anymore, I still loved him deeply and wanted him happy. I then did add that I wondered how happy he felt, with things this way--and if he ever cared to talk to me I would be glad to listen. He never responds at all to emails--so I don't know.

Last night a well meaning friend--who never even met exH, only knew the OM--seemed to be amazed I could continue trying with NO response. Well, as many of you have reminded me, it hasn't been very long in the grand scheme of things since OM has been gone. She then said,"Well, at least if you could just be friends." I don't think I can ever just be friends with him, if you all know what I mean. I've never understood people who can maintain a friendship per se with an ex-intimate in their life. Isn't one or the other always hoping for something more, than just 'friendship'? Maybe not, but as for me I love him too much and want him too much to just pal around with him, buddy buddy style. I realize it would start again that way, but I don't just want a 'buddy' in him, for the rest of our lives.

I want to remind him that OM and I don't communicate, haven't for a long time, but it seems bad to even bring OM up. Opinions? I did tell him, via email, that I only wanted him-exH, and that I still thought of him as my husband even though we are legally divorced. Perhaps it sounds goofy, but this is how I feel.

Sharon
Thanks for your responses. I like your approach idea of asking for help. You know what's funny? He was slightly more willing to help before, when I was still with OM, than he appears to be, now. Not completely willing, but for example now I need a small repair. My middle son asked him about it, and he explained how to do it. His more normal way would have been to help him do it. Right now youngest son needs help with a small furniture construction project. It made me SO SAD yesterday, seeing him struggle with it. His dad could have helped him in a second, and here this kid is...with me feebly helping. Dad is sitting in his little apt. , a mile away, alone. Son didn't call his dad though, he'll fix it on his own today. My youngest son seems hesitant to call and ask his dad, too, to come and help-in this home.

I've considered asking exH for help nearer to tax time, but have since decided I will simply go to an accountant, UNLESS he offers to help me. In some ways I think he needs to see I don't need him, but that I want him--not just to repair things, etc. I could be wrong, who knows.

I think your husband is deeply conflicted too, Sharon. I know it's hard to do, to wait it out, but I am telling you this fog thing for him may clear up sooner than you'd think. One never knows.

You're kind to feel that the pain I feel might be deeper than yours. WEll, I don't know about that, I think it's different. The pain I feel is a bit different I suppose as I'm the one who made this big mess. I feel guilt for it, of course, guilt and huge remorse. You know what it's like to be rejected by your spouse, I do too--but in a different way. It's hard, as I've said before, to come here and see all the spouses who are willing to forgive their cheating ones. All I want is my family/husband back, and I can't have it at all. In a way though I feel that no matter what happens, I'll have dealt with this and after years of waiting for exH I'll know I did all I could.

Glad your job is going okay, but too bad you have to start looking for another one soon.

Kily
Thanks for your response, too. Well, as you know the dinner invitation didn't work out THIS time, but maybe some day it will.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm sorry that things happened this way, but I think that the outcome of the whole thing was VERY positive.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks, I needed to hear that! Also, you're correct, the conversation with my daughter was much needed and it was a good thing. My R with my children wasn't so great when OM was in the picture, living in this area. I hardly had him come around here, as they so didn't like to see him here. Who could blame them?

You're right, I do have an entire lifetime to make this up to him. It is just hard to wait, when you've always fancied yourself a 'peacemaker'.

I saw you had a new thread here today. I'll have to read it more carefully, again, and respond over there. Thanks again for all of your help and kindness!!!

Rebuilding in Faith,

Thanks too for your input and help. I think I'll copy these words down, and put them in my wallet--what you said,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Stay strong and SHOW your H with your ACTIONS that you are willing to earn his forgiveness.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's wonderful you 've forgiven your wife. It's nice especially to see that males do it--forgive--, too. Many people have warned me that men NEVER/rarely forgive, but of course that's an erroneous generalization. How long after D DAY did you forgive her, and were you separated? I see by your signature when she had them, but when did you find out?

Just Learning, ,
Thanks for your response, too. Happy New Year to you, too!

You're so right, I've done some good but difficult things the last half of this year. I can't believe how long I stayed with OM, knowing I shouldn't be with him, for many, many reasons. My daughter asked me during our 'momentous' conversation the other day why I stayed with him so long. I really couldn't give her a good answer, although I believe I told her it was partially due to loneliness . And, quite frankly, I felt appreciated in a way I hadn't felt appreciated for years. How low self-esteem of me, to need that.

Again, JL, you're right. It's only been five months + without OM. He and I had an emotional connection for just under FOUR years. I know just reading that will make many BS's gag, but it's the simple truth. He was older, very domineering, and it was a very odd connection, indeed--the dynamics were so different than the one in my marriage. So yes, it hasn't been long, and I'm sure my exH thinks this is out of desperation, in a way.

You brought up how in the last few weeks he's showing me how it feels to be rejected, not wanted. You're so right--he tried for months while we were still living together, to get me to do things with him. I would say, "no". I hate the way I treated him. What a heel I was! I don't blame him, at all, for feeling as he does.

The gift I shipped to him should arrive soon. I doubt he'll acknowledge it at all. So be it. I don't know whether to mention it, or not.

JL, you said,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If you continue he will tire of this game or he will come out and TELL YOU TO LEAVE HIM ALONE. He hasn't done that. He has said he needs time or give it time. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The other day I mentioned to my daughter that our pastor had said this, too. She said, "Dad is too nice, he'd never say that to anyone--to get lost." I said, "Well, I think he most certainly would, if he felt the door was truly shut." Then she did agree that even though he's easy going, he does put his foot down and show them--the kids--when he MEANS it. JL, is it a bit of a game, in a way? What he's doing--without him knowing it?

I figure if he didn't want me to ask him, he'd say, "Please quit asking, the answer will never change."

I know I had to say this to OM--and it worked. People know the difference, between a vehement "NO" and a "maybe someday" no. I still remember that on Thanksgiving he said, "Not this time". (as far as joining us) So, he is in thinking mode.

I appreciate you telling me to see the positives in his ambivalence. You're right, he does have to swallow a lot of pride to return. I pray that he can do that in the end.

Thanks again for all of your help and caring. It means so much to me that people truly do care about each other and how life is for them.

Take care,
H_P

Hi H_P,

Like many here, I always said that if my W ever cheated on me I'd either kick her out or leave... Little did I know that I'd be faced with actually making that decision in our first year of marriage!

My W's first A happened only 2 months after we were married. I was in the military and away at school and she was finishing up her first year of college... I didn't find out about this A until Dec 00 when her guilt/depression finally got the best of her.

Our first duty station was overseas and this is where I found out about her "first" A. I never really "forgave" her after the "first" D-Day... I knew that it happened, but never really dealt with it. I wanted to send her back to the States to live with her parents, but they didn't think that that would be good for our M. I went through a severe time of depression and suicidal thoughts... eventually, I just buried the hurt because I didn't know how to deal with it.

She had 4 more A's while we were overseas... I suspected one of them and even confronted her and the OM. They both lied to me and I was so willing to avoid the hurt and pain again that I believed them both. Again, I never really "forgave" her... I just buried all of my hurt and acted like nothing happened.

Once we moved back to the States, things got much better between us in that I never suspected her straying again. As time went on we became closer but I always felt an underlying pain that "something" wasn't right in our M.

My wife would constantly say things like "I don't deserve you", "You are so good to me, why would you want me after what I've done to you" (remember, I only knew about 1 A and suspected 1 other A...) She finally broke down and confessed to all of her A's in Dec 00.

I was shocked...I was hurt...I was humilliated...I was in pain...I wanted to run... fortunately, there were several people from our church that were with us when she confessed. I made the decision to forgive her immediately and told her so. After all, we had three beautiful daughters and 13 years of M between us.

I was determined to NOT bury my pain and hurt like I did in the past and we got into MC at our church... best decision that we ever made! Our MC gave us the book Torn Asunder and had us work through it together.

It hasn't been easy and there are still times when I have thoughts/images/triggers from the past that pop up... but each time that they pop up, I just stop and recognize the pain... and then I choose to forgive my W. So for me, forgiveness is a DAILY process...

Sorry for being so long winded. I do hope that your H can learn to forgive you. I know that many BS wish that thier WS were 1/2 as committed as you are...

Semper Fi,
RIF90

<small>[ December 31, 2002, 02:59 PM: Message edited by: Rebuilding in Faith 90 ]</small>

Thanks, REbuilding, for your explanation. It's great that you are a forgiving person . Your wife is very lucky, no doubt.

My exH took my daughter on an outing yesterday, and simply dropped her off when it was over. He didn't come to the home to see our son's big project (furniture building) that he completed yesterday. ExH knew he was working on it, and that it would be done by evening.

This hurts most of all, that exH's resistance at seeing my face affects how he treats our children. My son didn't mention it, nor did I, of course not. But it pained me much to see the lack of interest in his own son's hard work.

I sent exH a New YEar's email message--no R talk, but naturally no response. It gets old, to be so ignored--but as JL says, either he'll tire of the game and respond, or tell me to get lost.

Happy New Year to all!! I know 2003 will be better than 2002 in the R department, whichever way it goes.

H_P

Hi H_P

And a happy new year to you!!! Listen, and listen carefully, you are doing really well!!!! Frankly, I think if I had been putting in as much effort as you with such little return, I may well have given up by now!

However, I think your XH's inability to put aside his feelings about you and not even to look at your son's project and hard work, is actually really shabby. Sorry, can't think of a better word without being rude about it. I also think you should tell him - treat me in whichever way you fancy, but treat the kids with the love and respect they deserve. This may well go against what anyone else might suggest, but why should he do that and just be allowed to do it? JMHO.

I read your post the other day and felt so sorry and sad for you, but today you seem strong and positive. I'm like that too, but I'm really going to try hard to keep staying positive, keep learning about me and try to be a better person. I know you will do, and I wish you all the happiness you deserve in 2003.

Wishing you well from rainy London!

Lisa

hi hopeful. in defense of you husbands lack of concern, many times men are not aware of as much as we should be. not saying that he shouldn have inquired about project of son, but maybe he just didn feel welcome in your home. I can imagine that I would have some bad feelings if I were standing out side of a house and a home that held to many happy memories. I probably couldn go to the door myself. I suppose I try to give everyone an excuse for almost anything. you mentioned that you wondered should you discuss the dynamics of you sn you had with om with hubby. were they that different. I suspect part of his attraction was that he was maybe better and fullfilling you physical desires, I would only discuss thatwith ex should you two reconnect. and then only if he needs to know. sometimes , we as men, need reasons to help us handle and get past things, maybe full disclosure of all the dynamics would help him, but only you can judge that. but first, you have to get a bit closer to him. I once mentioned that you need to become a new person as the old one will not work. I think you can see that from reading your own posting. what kind of person? how to make the change? I have suggested some impractical ideas, I knew they were impractical, but made some suggestions to help try and jar you loose. not commit financial hari kari, but just some changes in lattitude and hopefully attitude. ah the cliches, while at it let me throw in one other....fake it till you make it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> ( I asked you if you knew of some woman who would make ex happy , would you intoduce them? why? to get you to ask yourself that to measure you ability to change you attitude. well you never did answer...........its ok to say no way in hell. but that is a starting point for you. however, if you say that, then that suggests you want ownership of him emotionally and physically . thats understandable. just learning , who by the way, is truly as asset to folks here mentioned friendship. your children are a connection. to be straigh forward here. that may be the only connection you ever have, but we are not at that point yet. love is good, but if it can't be love friendship isn't bad. in fact its pretty darn good too. and since you can't bring about a rekindling of love similar to spontaneous combustion. you must first start small. ex has to be housebroken again. the owner who kicked the puppy daily can't train the puppy. the puppy just shakes and pees all over the floor again when confronted by cruel owner. has to be another kinder trainer. hence a new lady in ex's life. changes such as we are considering here have to rest upon small things to form a basis for larger changes later. operant conditioning?? remember ex has to be retrained. first retrain yourself..then find trainer to retrain ex husband. he is not ready for cohabitation and the process witll take some time. please answer the question would you introduce a nice lady to ex if you knew she could make him happy. I know, I know there is a risk. but remember you are a risk taker?????no and how do you describe the dynamics of the relationshipwith om? excitment, was there a dominance thing that you needed? I know lonesomeness factored in. we are all just people do the best we can. and what we need is a good local pub to go too this evening.. but not as civilized as merry ole England so guess we must do with a bar, or a 7 ..11 or better. best wishes nutty professor

H_P,

I would send your exH a STERN message saying what Lisa said. "Ignore me if you wish, but don't ignore your son. He just completed something he is very proud of. Get your $SS over here and look at it. I have may have been a bad wife, but that is no excuse for you to be a lousy father. "

Sign it as you wish. I think he needs to know you are mad at him and why.

God Bless,

JL

Hi Everyone,
Thanks JL , Checkers, and Lisa for your replies..I'll answer specifically later on . Houseguests here, in succession--different groups.

Anyway...I did call exH about not seeing son's project. No answer. Thus I did email him, a bit harsh, but I did say if he chose to ignore me, I still loved him--but I wouldn't tolerate him ignoring the children. Wonder if he'll call to see the desk? Doubtful

BTW...he hasn't called here at all to wish them happy new year. I don't know what will happen, with the note I sent..but it WAS the right thing to do.

I am truly tired of trying with someone who doesn't want to give anything to anyone.

Thanks,
H_P

HP-

ATTA GIRL! (Pat on back here)

Sounds like you're having fun. Glad to see it.

Happy New Year.

Thanks, Kily and JL.

I did send off the email, as I mentioned before, and I did tell him I loved him--but I wouldn't tolerate his ignoring of the children.

He called here about a half hour ago, and I didn't answer--daughter did. He spoke with daughter and sons briefly. Son didn't mention him coming to see the furniture, but it sounded like exH was trying to make evening plans with my kids--we already have them with our company! (relatives)

It is hard, I wish to call him and really tell him off for what he did, including him not calling when daughter was SO SICK a month ago--he didn't even call to inquire of her condition during the day.

I must restrain myself, to not 'love bust' completely. SO, I won't call. Part of the problem in the marriage was always his complete 'non-reaction' to everything. Now I'm feeling better , actually, that I did leave the marriage. Did I go about it wrong? Yes. But sorry to say this, it sure was nice to be with someone (OM) who had feelings and emotion AND SHOWED it to me. Guess what else, WE TALKED!! ExH barely ever talked, and now it is REALLY bad, it is "NIL". This apathy is horrible, and it has only gotten WORSE. All of the BS's here, who so state their love to their WS--mine did NOTHING, except file . NO expression .

Thanks for letting me vent, but I think it had to happen.

I know it must read like I'm really riled up--I am. I do truly LOVE this man, and I do still feel there's hope. But better to LB h ere, than with him

TAke care,
H_P

H_P,

Vent away, I've been doing it a bit myself lately. Don't feel badly about what you are saying. As everyone here says it takes two to make a marriage. My H was much as yours during our M. I know that what you are saying to some may sound like excuses but I know how it feel on the outside looking in in a relationship. I felt so alone the last year before he left. I know why he was so distant now, but then it just hurt. That is one of the reasons I told you I felt I myself was very subseptible to an A myself. The love and affection I longed for from my H he was feeling for someone else. I realize it is different sides of the coin but I know how you feel. It is a lonely depressing feeling, to feel detacthed from your love.

H_P you get riled up because you still love and care for me. That is one way I can tell I'm starting to let go. I don't get riled or emotional about our M or our R too much anymore. I just don't feel it anymore. I have also lately felt as you feel that I am glad sometimes He left the marriage. I am beginning to think more and more that it was time. I am not saying our marriage was DOOMED or that it couldn't be saved even now. BUT, one person cannot do it. If the other cannot accept that change can happen and make SOME effort it doesn't work. My H has shown no desire, no faith in our marriage.

H_P I know our perspectives of what is happening are different but yet they are very similar. If things had gone just a little different it might be my H here writing to you and me off living a fantasy with an OM.

Anyway I am just rambling away aren't I. Just know that I care and respect your hard work and patience. Take care and be strong and happy.

Sharon

H_P,

Vent away, I've been doing it a bit myself lately. Don't feel badly about what you are saying. As everyone here says it takes two to make a marriage. My H was much as yours during our M. I know that what you are saying to some may sound like excuses but I know how it is to feel on the outside looking in in a relationship. I felt so alone the last year before he left. I know why he was so distant now, but then it just hurt. That is one of the reasons I told you I felt I myself was very subseptible to an A myself. The love and affection I longed for from my H he was feeling for someone else. I realize it is different sides of the coin but I know how you feel. It is a lonely depressing feeling, to feel detacthed from your love.

H_P you get riled up because you still love and care for him. That is one way I can tell I'm starting to let go. I don't get riled or emotional about our M or our R too much anymore. I just don't feel it anymore. I have also lately felt as you feel that I am glad sometimes He left the marriage. I am beginning to think more and more that it was time. I am not saying our marriage was DOOMED or that it couldn't be saved even now. BUT, one person cannot do it. If the other cannot accept that change can happen and make SOME effort it doesn't work. My H has shown no desire, no faith in our marriage.

H_P I know our perspectives of what is happening are different but yet they are very similar. If things had gone just a little different it might be my H here writing to you and me off living a fantasy with an OM.

Anyway I am just rambling away aren't I. Just know that I care and respect your hard work and patience. Take care and be strong and happy.

Sharon

<small>[ January 02, 2003, 08:17 PM: Message edited by: footballwidow ]</small>

Hi HP,

I read your post and I found it really STRANGE that you and I are reaching the SAME feelings at the same time.

I remember when I first started questioning everything and decided that I wanted to fix this that you were at the same point and started the same inquisition.

Could it be that we are just reaching a certain phase in recovery? That we are growing IMPATIENT and because things aren't going the way that we want them to our defense mechanisms are kicking in? Maybe this is the time when most people fail at it because they give up rather than face the hard road that lie ahead?

I know that for me, this holiday season was MUCH easier to deal with if I didn't have contact with XBF. The minute that I did, I just felt total pain because I was mourning the loss of the things that we "used" to do together. I'm really torn right now about contacting him and letting it go. I REALLY want it, but I'm starting to believe that getting it back is impossible.

New Years eve was especially hard because I knew what he would be doing at midnight while I was in bed crying.

I think the hardest part was that I had hope, and up until the HOLIDAYS he was actually calling me daily and at least giving an opening. It seems that this "special" time in his life with GF only helped to BOND them closer. This basically resulted in his not calling and resuming to one lined emails.

I suppose JL could probably give us some more insight on this.

Sorry to dump my feelings on you, I was just pondering it all and thought that maybe you had similar thoughts....

Hello,
I don't have much time as I still have company here...but I wanted to thank you for responding to me, Sharon and Kily.

I am still feeling the same resignation that I felt the other day. It just seems very hopeless at this point. This man hasn't shown one sign of any sort of feelings toward me--positive ones--in years.

Strangely, I am now thinking more of the problems we had in our marriage and what led me to take my drastic actions. This sounds awful, I know, but a HUGE part of the problems was his complete apathy in many areas, and his non-response to me in many areas. I'm not blaming him, I did it--the A--but I am remembering BETTER now how he was with me.

Yes, maybe it's all part of the process of the whole thing, Kily. I want to work on things with him, but I rather doubt he'll ever want to be with me again. He told me he wants to be alone, and never be with anyone. I think this is probably partially true as for him being close and sharing feelings is SO HARD. (even the kind of 'feelings' that most males find EASY to express)

Sorry to dump here, again. I have so little time with company here that I probably VENT too much.

Thanks again,
H_P

H_P,

Hi, just checking in. It is so funny that you are talking about remembering what your H was like and some of the reasons you had the A.

I was just having lunch with a friend today and saying about the same thing you are saying. That I am thinking more about the problems we had also. I am beginning to believe that it would take a lot more than H just saying "I'm sorry, I want to come back" I think I would be unhappy going back to the way things were. I realize that all the problems weren't just with him. I had my part in why he had the A. But, he had his faults too. He would have to make an effort and I would have to see changes too, or forget it. While it is still true that I would do anything to save my marriage, it is still important, I will do anything I can do. I will not pick up the slack for my H. I think you may be reaching this point also.

I know this might not be comforting to you. In fact it may be just the opposite. But I think it is healthy that you, Kily and I have gotten far enough along to stop blaming ourselves completely and be able to see things as they truly are. I know this might sound funny coming from a BS. But I know how hard you are trying and how remorseful you have felt.

I still do believe that your H might need awhile. I know it is different but I think my H still needs time too. Funny in a way that doesn't bother me anymore. He can have all the time he wants. I won't LB him, I will love and support him as well as I can. I will be here for him. BUT I don't know anymore if I will be here to repair our marriage. I think once my divorce is final, which hopefully will be soon,(I can't believe I just wrote that!), that it might be it for me. I am actually happier right now than I have been in a LONG time. Even before my H left.

Anyway, sorry for the ME ME ME, stuff. Thinking back what I wrote probably will come off to you in a bad way. I'm sorry if it does.

I hope you are happy H_P. Take care of yourself.

Sharon

Thanks for letting me vent here, the past few days. I sound a bit like a rat..or I did the other day...but I'm sure you all realize it's my own anger coming out, which is truly directed at me, not him!

In the light of this morning I now feel a bit more patient, again, and thinking that I just need to be even more patient.

I need to keep remembering how long this A went on, and even though I did ask my H to consider a reconciliation as long as 20 months ago, my H didn't SEE any evidence of changed behavior until this past July.

The hard part for me is knowing what to do with my feelings of love for my exH. I need to not think about him perhaps as much, as it makes me cry so easily when he ignores me completely. I won't lose those feelings for him, but I need to curb them a bit for self-protection. I am sure that BS's go through this all the time.

I'll continue SHOWING my love for him, with small gestures . He absolutely seems to HATE to hear from me at all. I'm so dislike feeling that rejection, over and over.

I sent him that gift. I'm sure by now he's received it. Haven't heard a word about it. I'll eventually have to ask him if he received it, of course.

Thanks for all of your insight and help.

H_P

bumped for meanttobe.