I appreciate all the posts. I am reading them and thinking. If I am honest with myself I must admit that I like going to lunch with this woman. I know becuase if I had to stop I would miss the conversation and the emails at work. That tells me that something is happening here. I dont know if it is an emotional affair or what.

I do not want to do anything to jeopardize my marriage. Someone asked me what I would think if my wife was the one with a friend. part of me would be jealous but I also realzie it is impossible for a spoouse to be everything to the other spouse. This sounds like a cliches but the heart is big enough to have more than one in there it seems.

This friend of mine is a catholic and comes from a strong background and I know she does not want to do anything to hurt her marriage. Why cant mature men and women be friends?

I am not looking to have you guys approve of me because i will do what i think anyway. but I feel you are like friends who i can talk with. I know you guys can get mad at me but what you say does make me think even if you dont think I am doing so.

We are not sneaking away to a hotel. Just going to lunch out in the open. No sexual talk ever.

Trying to reason with someone who uses no reason is quite insane. I would throw in the towel, you guys, you gave it your best shot.

Cautious,

I've looked back at some of your other posts. If you looked back at them as if some one else posted them, you would see a progression from; knowing that something was wrong with this friendship; to questioning why it was wrong; to almost defending it.

Ever hear about the frog that ws put in a beaker of water witha small falm under it. The frog body temp, being cold blooded, adjusted to the heat. The water kept etting hotter and the frog's body temp kept adjusting until the frog got cooked and it never knew it was ever in trouble.

What is it going to take for you to see that the water is almost boiling and you need to jump out?

S&C

dear cautious,
ask yourself this question- can your wife be included in the lunch? Why not invite her to join you and your friend?

I for example, have an old male friend who I met before my husband. Nothing sexual there. Never was, never will be. (And there has been opportunity- I met him while travelling and we actually shared a bedroom in Finland together- he's not my type)We are in sporadic contact- he lives abroad. My husband would not mind if he came into town and I got together with him for lunch.

The reason for that is- 1)the contact is very sporadic. It does not divert my time and attention away from my H. 2)I am completely honest and open with my H. My H is invited to read any letter my friend sends. My H is always welcome to join me and my friend if we meet and has on occasion. I have no secrets from my H. 3)My friend recently married. The last time he came to town, my H and I met he and his new wife for lunch.So everyone knows each other.

So, why not invite your wife to join you and your mature, completely platonic friend for lunch? Please answer.

Two great posts here. Boy, you are right when you notice how I have progressed. I thought aobut it and why. I have to be honest in saying that I like having her as a friend. Maybe I am rationalizing it, but it seems that it is safe because she is devotely married and has no interest in sex and wants to be friends. I have no interest in sex and it seems like we both have the same ground rules. I am splitting hairs I know but I am being honest. I am enjoying this friendship. Part of me thinks it is crazy and part of me really likes it. She said to me the other day that something has oepened up that she was not looking for and she is kind of scared becuase of the [censored].

I have to also be honest that if I had to quit the lunches I would feel disapointed so I know that she is more than a coworker kind of friend. Not like an affair but not just the average coworker.

Somone asked about my wife joining. I have to be honest again I would not have her at the lunch but I would introudcue my wife to her and if we wre at a funciotn I would sit with her and her husband.

The rational part of me kind of senses something is worng. Not morally, even though that is true but I am not grounde in the church. But it seems just kind of sneaky. I know that but it seems safe becuase she is in the church and very moral and will make sure it never goes further. I dont want more and if she doesnt that seems like a safety valve.

I have brought up in the past her pictuers of her husband on her desk and people laughed at me. To me that is a sign that she loves her husband. Cant that be true? Somone siad she must be unhappy.In three yers I have never seen any signs of that.

I was not looking to pick this woman up it just sparked during a lunch.

Are there any woman out there who can tell me if they think I am leadin gher on or if she is leading me on. If two people know they want to mainatin their marriages why cant they be friends?

Bottom line, cautious,

If you were having a mature friendship with this woman you wouldn't be coming to a place called Marriage Builders and asking about that friendship.

You already know the answer, so you are either yanking everyones chain or WANT HELP.

Which is it?

Cautious,

I can't help but wondering if you are here just to 'pull our legs' and get us 'riled up'. You definitely seem to be a bit of a provocateur...

The fact that she is a devoutly religious person, on the surface, means nothing. I was too, until I began an A with a man who began as a 'friend'. He and I even discussed 'Christian' issues. I didn't find God again until I became repentant and quit my horrible ways.

Picture of her H on her desk? Big deal! Do you really think that means anything at all?

I think that you enjoy the lunches and the relationship as it is giving you a big ego boost. I am no one to talk! These feelings are downright addictive, and you know it. Please, for the sake of your marriage, do the right thing and end these little one-on-one lunches.

I personally have never believed in male/female friendships. (the one-on-one type you are suggesting) One person or the other always has some sort of feeling , whether realized or not, for the other one.

That's just my take. But what do I know? I had an A,(started with an online friendship that my H didn't really mind) and I am now divorced, alone, and very , very unhappy and full of regrets. Thankfully I ended it with the other man--right before my D was final!

You'll have to choose your own road, and you told us that you would do just that. Perhaps you
should choose, "the road less traveled."
Which one do you think that is?

Hopeful

Cautious honey, please, these people really do know what they are talking about. You said you are going to do what you want anyway, but, take it from me, if you don't cool it with this lady, you are going to end up like me.... hurting big time. If you care about her as a friend only, ok, think of it this way: maybe you only think of her as a friend, but it really sounds like she is falling in love with you...as a friend, do her a favor and back off. BELIEVE ME, I know how painful it is to be in love with someone else. I don't know how anyone can tell you any differently than has already been said here over and over again. People are really starting to wonder about your intentions on here!

Melodylane:

ol' 2long is officially throwing in his towel on this one.

I had hopes that cautious would be different, and really save at least 4 people some horrible hurt by stopping this nonsense NOW. But, just like tempted, he won't. And just like my W, he won't. And although we're doing well now, we're still pretty deep in2 the woods, and I'm not yet certain we'll be able 2 save our 26yr M.

Think about that, cautious, as you watch me throw that towel in!!!!

Cautious - my last post to you. Here's a description of my wife in a context that pertains to your situation. Maybe you should consider this before you give any more reasons why nothing will ever happen between you two. My wife:

1) had pictures of me and our kids on her desk
2) went to lunch and coffee with the OM
3) worked in a church, so did OM - both devout Christians
5) always told me I was the perfect husband and she was very happy in our marriage
6) went on many romantic trips with me
7) etc., etc., etc.
8) had an EA for years, 2.5 of which were PA

Anything sink in yet? Hope you figure it out before the pain swallows up you, the OW, and many innocent people.

Oh, yeah. One more thing - be a man. Go home to your wife and keep the promises you made to her.

That's right, your marriage vows SHOULD mean something. My H also had a picture of me in my wedding dress on his desk, the office is one of the places that they were 'together.

I am thinking you are really somebody, possibly female, from another board just here to stir things up. I'm done stirring at this end. Nobody can be as 'naive' as you claim to be. Nobody

OK MMSeekingadvice, tempted, cautious,

Of COURSE there is room in your heart for two women at the same time! It is very possible and very human. So why is this a problem?

1. Marriage vows say.....forsaking all others...including emotional attractions, affairs, WHATEVER you wanna call it.

2. You are doing something with another woman that would cause your wife pain.......THAT ALONE is enough reason to make it wrong.

3. The friendship is yucky, dark, nasty, sneaky, makes a mockery of your marriage and a fool
of your wife. If you don't believe me ask HER, you are so interested in a woman's opinion.

4. Knock it off.

Replaced

2.

I think you SHOULD go to lunch at a motel room...or maybe a nudist camp...it's just a friendship.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> yeah right...

As a female who works with men and several whom I am friends and several who I would have or have gone to lunch with...guess what...NOT ONE OF THEM EVER said to me....

that our friendship was "unusual"
that she likes it because it belongs just to her and does not involve the other parts of her life

that she is not interested in making it a sexual thing, and said that some people if they read our emails might think wre having an affair."

that she had a dream about me and that she considers us partners.

that no one has noticed the things about her that I do,

She told me she was not looking for anything but glad she found a friend like me

I have never ever said to one or about one of my male friends at work...
had to ask what they think about our friendship and if it is wrong...
That emails are not sexual or sensual at all. More like how our conversations have made her come alive, feel happy, etc. That kind of thing
I was not looking to pick this woman up it just sparked during a lunch.

Not in one of my many co-worker male friends with whom I have/had lunch with has ANY of this type of talk been part of it...because people who are JUST FRIENDS never need to discuss any of the above things....do you see it....not a normal lunch pass the ketchup type of interaction now is this...??? I can honestly say that in all my male friendships I have never had to quantify any part of it by saying...
I know that but it seems safe becuase she is in the church and very moral and will make sure it never goes further. I dont want more and if she doesnt that seems like a safety valve.

Normal just friendships between a man and woman do not require safety valves....

You two have already crossed an line of "just friends"..as in just friends do not interact this way...do not covet interactions between the two of them to be just theirs...and not involving others..."
Change your question to whats wrong with becoming emotionally invested in someone other than your spouse...you have long ago stepped over a boundary of just friends....and keep up that rationalization that you got going there the thicker the fog gets...the easier it will be to say and hear things like....
She said to me the other day that something has opened up that she was not looking for and she is kind of scared becuase of the conection." yeah that's normal friend talk....

...wait is that a fog-horn I hear in the background???
You are setting your self up to hurt people that love and care about you...you are already deep into rationalizing and making it appear normal...but the truth is Cautious...just friends never have these conversations...because that's all they are is friends...you are having a emotional affair..spending time, energy, and nurturing on someone other then your spouse...

I hope for your sake and your love for your wife you stop it now

ARK

#1 Rule of Marriage

NEVER do anything without your spouse there that you wouldn't do in front of them.

NUFF SAID

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by hcii:
<strong>Hey Cautious (who is ever so cautiously keeping BOTH feet on the banana peel...),
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">HA! HA! HA! Loved this! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Sounds to me like if cautious was being SOOOO "cautious," then he would not have been out to lunch with another woman besides his wife, regardless...

If cautious was being so "cautious" there wouldn't be a need for any safety nets???

And if cautious cared so much for his wife's feelings, he wouldn't be doing something that he knows deep down in his heart would make her the slightest bit jealous.

Something else struck me and makes me wonder... if the "lunch buddy OW" who loves her H so much did want more from cautious, would he be feeling guilty enough to be asking these questions in the first place? Probabably so! Our actions tend to follow our thoughts. I'm just guessing, but there is probably something already going on in his mind... That's where affairs really start, ya know?

And furthermore, I would not want any woman out to lunch with MY husband telling him that his friendship makes her feel "alive"... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> I think I would be most ready for that friendship to DIE and I do mean yesterday! Hmph!

cautious, What is your wife's number? I would love to call her and invite her as a surprise guest to your next private-public luncheon...

I would really like to see this woman who is so in love with her husband tell you how ALIVE you make her feel in front of your wife! I doubt if she is woman enough to say something like that to your wife's face.

Truth be told, I think it fed your ego to have another woman tell you this when it really should have raised red flags in your mind. Don't be a dummy. Be smart. Listen to your conscious while it is still trying to warn you. Don't let her win you with her eyelids and flattery. You will never regain your honor if you don't get stronger faster...

<small>[ September 25, 2002, 05:29 AM: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</small>

Hey,

Just checking in to see how your emotional affair is coming along. Seems right on schedule I predict that by the holiday's you will be moving close to the PA. You know the stresses the holiday's bring on...and how you make her feel alive, and how you would miss the lunches. AAAHHH nothing like Chirstmas time to break up a good marriage. Gee you may actually be able to look forward to a spring divorce.

You ask if men and women cant just be friends. Some men and women cant be fiends. You are one of those men because you truly have no motivation to halt this process. You talk about honesty. You said yourself she is not the normal coworker relationship. The frog in hot water analogy is perfect. You are letting things go right to the line. Just because she hasnt mentioned SEX doesnt mean she hasnt alluded to it. She dreamt of you, she thinks of you as a partner...ask yourself if a guy friend of yours told you these sorts of things wouldnt your comfortability level be encroached upon just a bit? I think it would...why...because the sexual inuendo is clear.

And what do you mean by...if she doesnt take this further you wont? Is that to say that if she said you know the dream was sexual would you move to make fantasy reality?

See the thing is you aren't friends with this woman and the lunches aren't innocent. But you know that.

I thought about throwing in the towel but then I thought of your wife (and if there is a chance that you arent some psycho who just likes to play games by asking the same inane questions)...if someone could have stopped what happened to me, if someone could have explained to my husband that his innocent public lunches that he enjoyed so much, lunches that I knew about and didnt mind, would lead to the near destruction of our marriage I would have wanted them to try. You see, like your wife I trusted that my husband could maintain proper male/female relationships. I never expected him to make an emotional bond with these women, as you are with your lunch buddy. He became intoxicated by the approval they gave him. He noticed things about them no one else did. He never made the first move...he didnt need to because he just made the come alive, their friendshipds were special something just for those women...and they were good women, church going, husband loving, pictures on the desk women. Something over those lunches just sparked.
So for your wife I am holding my towel for the moment. NO WIFE (NO SPOUSE) deserves this.

ayslyne posted:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You ask if men and women cant just be friends. Some men and women cant be fiends. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I concur. Here's my additional opinion.....

It is IMPOSSIBLE for Men and Women who make each other feel "special" to be friends.

Simple as that.

That is the EXACT reason why my stbXW and I can NEVER be friends. Even though she had the A and is DV'ing me, she is still "special" to me. I can never "settle" for just a "special" friendship.

Once the door to "special" is open, different emotions arise from that. Instinctive emotions. Ones that are the part of us that no matter how hard we try, we cannot escape them.

The old saying "You can't fool Mother Nature". She WILL have her say in that.

I've often said that the Man upstairs did not tatoo my stbXW's name on my forehead. I am, and will be, attracted to other women. My not acting on that attraction is what distinquishes me from people with no sense of moral direction.

For another analogy, Cautious, you are taking a risk that I think is not worth the reward.

Ask yourself, even with just ONE bullet in the cylinder, would you do it for a million dollars?

Nahh...Didn't think so. The risk is too great.

Be smart. Play the odds. My friend, they are WAY against you, now.

HCII