Well, shoot.

Yes2rday I walked in the door (early) and caught my W hiding her laptop screen. I didn't say anything, just casually walked around the table 2 see what she would do. She folded the screen down so I couldn't see it. This am, I confirmed that she used her hotmail account then, and then again this am.

So, look. This is how it's been. GREAT. I'm not LBing at all. I'm getting love in re2rn from her. We're solving problems with the house and working on it 2gether. We're talking about the fu2re.

The continued contact isn't "news." I've assumed it's continued because she hasn't told me it doesn't. I've also checked her IE his2ry occasionally and have known she uses her hotmail about 2wice a week. And she had told me over 2 months ago that she uses it exclusively for emailing Rat Meat. I've been plan Aing, hoping that she'll no longer "need" contact at some point, which I suppose could still happen, if I could remain patient. But yes2rday was different because I "caught her" hiding it from me.

2uestion: Should I say ANYTHING 2 her? I feel like I need 2 for ME. I need 2 before my concerns over what it "means" get mushroomed out of proportion in my overripe imagination. I need 2 before I get 2tired of this whole process and just want 2quit.

I continue 2 want what's best for her happiness. I KNOW that Rat Meat can't provide her with this, but she doesn't know it or can't break loose of the contact on her own. But I'm willing 2 "accept" that she might believe that she needs his "friendship/collaboration" 2 be happy, but feel that I need 2 make it clear that I will step out of her triangle if that's what she wants. I'm ready 2 let go.

Have I done all I can? Well, probably not.

Should I give up? Well, probably not, but I shouldn't "put up" with continued contact, either. Remember, she thought she ended her A 10 months ago. On the other hand, so far as I know, the contact has only been via email, and they haven't seen each other in person in probably just over a year. So, maybe being patient and plan Aing until SHE "goes nuts" wondering what *I'M* doing is the thing.

Do I want 2 give up? Yes, at times. But if I do, I may never know if this plan A I've been "conducting" the past 2 months, which has yielded fabulous times between us, will work 2 save our M without "getting tough" with plan B.

Maybe this is just a vent. Maybe it's a prelude 2 a major change in my sigline. I don't know.

Okay, I realize that "detable" is not a word, but neither is "deplane"!! (whenever they say that over the airline intercom I picture somebody ripping the wings off the airplane!!!)

This is just one guy's opinion. But I'd think that after 10 months, she's either got to fish or cut bait. You've been more than patient. She's trying to have her cake and it too.

I don't think you need an ultimatum, necessarily. I ended up telling my W that I could no longer tolerate the contact. I made the conversation mostly about *my* feelings.

But it also helps to point out that *she's* demonstrating the need for secrecy in the contact, which is not healthy for your M.

Now, listen, if you go this path, brace yourself. She might be angry, maybe depressed. And you'll end up feeling like you un-did all the progress you've made. Brace yourself, it is temporary (or at least was for me).

Good luck, bro...

Riff:

Yes. Correct! It has 2 be about my feelings, and maybe about her needs. Not about my needs, because that could be read as a demand, however untrue that might be.

I want 2 be careful with this, 2, because things have been so good for us, and I'm not always certain that I can bring up my feelings about contact without LBing.

Yes, it's really time 2 cut bait. There are no fish in THIS pond.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>
Well, shoot.

The continued contact isn't "news." I've assumed it's continued because she hasn't told me it doesn't. I've also checked her IE his2ry occasionally and have known she uses her hotmail about 2wice a week. And she had told me over 2 months ago that she uses it exclusively for emailing Rat Meat. I've been plan Aing, hoping that she'll no longer "need" contact at some point, which I suppose could still happen, if I could remain patient. But yes2rday was different because I "caught her" hiding it from me.

.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Awwww, 2long, I am so sorry to hear this. I wish I had something to say to you that would make this all go away...

I just know that in my case, I had to ask for NC. As I said earlier, I did it nicely. The contact just had to stop if there was going to be any chance of saving this relationship. You get to a point where enough is enough. And I really am not sure what exactly I would have done if he had not been willing to go to NC at that time. At that point, we were more than half a year into my looking the other way. And his time on the computer and quickly getting out of whatever he was in when I entered the room broke my heart every time. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> I just hated that feeling. It tore me apart. I really feel for you.

I guess I just feel that they can only be allowed so much time to sit on the fence. At some point, the WS has to understand that they cannot do this indefinitely. I do know that it's so hard to end it when they have been friends forever. I even felt badly because he was going to lose this friendship that was so important to him all these years. (When they were just friends, I mean.) I just kept thinking that they were going to end up not being friends regardless. Either they end it now, or they end it later when it doesn't wind up being the "dream" relationship they think it will be. I just couldn't imagine them going back to just being friends after either of these endings. But I know you can't tell them that. (Although I did try - LB, I know!!)

What I am wondering though, is are you feeling dangerously close to losing your love for her altogether? If so, I do think you need to do something.

Anyway, I'm sorry that this is where you are today. Whatever you do, just don't do it in a LBing kind of way. But you know that!

MT

MT:

"Awwww, 2long, I am so sorry to hear this. I wish I had something to say to you that would make this all go away..."

Boy, ME 2! There isn't any though.

"I just know that in my case, I had to ask for NC. As I said earlier, I did it nicely. The contact just had to stop if there was going to be any chance of saving this relationship. You get to a point where enough is enough. And I really am not sure what exactly I would have done if he had not been willing to go to NC at that time."

I'm getting 2 that point, but I have no clue whether she'd be willing if I were 2 ask for NC. I still don't think she would be, is my problem. But I have no evidence other than what's happened in months past.

"At that point, we were more than half a year into my looking the other way. And his time on the computer and quickly getting out of whatever he was in when I entered the room broke my heart every time. I just hated that feeling. It tore me apart. I really feel for you."

I know exactly what you're saying. I've been "looking the other way" now for about 2 months. It's had a fabulous impact on our R. But it certainly can't go on like this 4ever. 2uestion is, would being patient, and keeping up this loving plan A possibly result in her deciding 2 end contact on her own? If there's a chance that could happen before I burn out completely, I'd certainly like 2 know somehow.

"I guess I just feel that they can only be allowed so much time to sit on the fence. At some point, the WS has to understand that they cannot do this indefinitely. I do know that it's so hard to end it when they have been friends forever. I even felt badly because he was going to lose this friendship that was so important to him all these years. (When they were just friends, I mean.) I just kept thinking that they were going to end up not being friends regardless."

I feel the same way. But in my W's case, the friendship couldn't have been more than a year or 2 old before the first A started. He was only M'd a couple of years at most by that point in time, 2, so he isn't much in the integrity department.

"Either they end it now, or they end it later when it doesn't wind up being the "dream" relationship they think it will be."

In my W's case, neither one of them wanted 2 lose their own families, never said ILY 2 each other, and my W, after D-day, has said many times she'd "have 2 be alone" if we split up because she knows it wouldn't work with Rat Meat.

"I just couldn't imagine them going back to just being friends after either of these endings. But I know you can't tell them that."

Yep. They have 2 find this out for themselves.

"What I am wondering though, is are you feeling dangerously close to losing your love for her altogether? If so, I do think you need to do something."

Sometimes I do. But you know? I don't care. If I get 2 the point where I don't have enough love left 4 her, I'll be ready 2 go straight 2 DV with a clear conscience that I did my damnedest, and start over someday with someone new. So, does that sound ill? I would almost welcome that as a sure way 2 end this nonsense without feeling as much hurt as I would if SHE left while I still love HER. Does that make sense?

"Anyway, I'm sorry that this is where you are today. Whatever you do, just don't do it in a LBing kind of way. But you know that! "

Yes! I KNOW that. Actually IMPLEMENTING it without LBing is the key!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Hey there big fella ...

Caught her with her hand in the cookie jar, did ya?

It it hurt you ... say so.

Can you trust yourself have an honest but calm conversation with her ? One where you share yourself and what you're feeling? A conversation where ALL you do is claim ownership to your feelings?

Make no statements containing the word "YOU". This sounds easy enough, but, it's not.

"I feel hurt and saddened knowing you still contact another man with whom you have had an affair."

"It feels so bad inside of me when this hapends. I am at a loss of where to go to feel less violated and vulnerable. Can you help me deal with my feelings?"

Silently suffering the disrespect is not required of plan A.

Find your voice. You are supposed to tell her when you hurt.

What do you think?

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ September 25, 2002, 07:16 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

----2uestion: Should I say ANYTHING 2 her? I feel like I need 2 for ME. I need 2 before my concerns over what it "means" get mushroomed out of proportion in my overripe imagination. I need 2 before I get 2tired of this whole process and just want 2quit.

Yes you should say something to her. It’s important, even in Plan A, to tell the WS how their continued contact affects, how you feel about it. Just be sure to do it in a non love buster way. One way that works well is in a letter. Then your emotions cannot get in the way and you are sure to cover what you wanted to say.

You’ve been plan A’ing for a while. This can become a life style that the gets used to very quickly.. they have the best of both worlds and it looks like the BS does not really care or mind. Let her know that you are not going to go on like this forever.

After a point, Plan A becomes enabling. You are the only one who can decide when your Plan A has reached that point. Or when your love for her is seriously low and it’s time for Plan B.

I know you want to believe that you can totally Plan A yourself into a wholly honest and loving relationship with your wife, but I'd say you have a better chance at winning the lotto...twice. These problems won't go away just because you want them to, and I know that we'd like to believe that love is the key, but it's only the key to one door. There are many that need opening, and some require other things to open them.

By the way .... when you ask someone for NC ... what you're really asking for (underneath all the bull crap) ... is this:

This <activity> hurts me. Please stop hurting me.

Her decision is then whether or not she will hurt you by choice.

Pep

Pep:

"Caught her with her hand in the cookie jar, did ya?"

You betcha. It would have been funny if it weren't so serious.

"It it hurt you ... say so.
Can you trust yourself have an honest but calm conversation with her ? One where you share yourself and what you're feeling? A conversation where ALL you do is claim ownership to your feelings?"

This is the rub. And it's why I haven't said anything up 2 this point. I don't KNOW. Not until I try, that is. I "know the rules", though, which is good.

"Make no statements containing the word "YOU". This sounds easy enough, but, it's not.
"I feel hurt and saddened knowing you still contact another man woth whom you have had an affair."

I am thinking of saying JUST THIS (or some paraphrase of it) and doing it at a time this evening when there's no ROOM for an immediate response - let her think about it for a couple of hours with me (and our son) in the room just living.

""It feels so bad inside of me when this hapends. I am at a loss of where to go to feel less violated and vulnerable. Can you help me deal with my feelings?""

Something like this, particularly the last, is what I have in mind if the convo continues at some point.

"Silently suffering the disrespect is not required of plan A."

No, it isn't.

"Find your voice. You are supposed to tell her when you hurt.
What do you think?"

I think you're right.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
[QB]Hey there big fella ...

Make no statements containing the word "YOU". This sounds easy enough, but, it's not.

"I feel hurt and saddened knowing you still contact another man with whom you have had an affair."

"It feels so bad inside of me when this hapends. I am at a loss of where to go to feel less violated and vulnerable. Can you help me deal with my feelings?"

Silently suffering the disrespect is not required of plan A.

Find your voice. You are supposed to tell her when you hurt.

What do you think?

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">HA! Gotcha using the word 'you' <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

How about "I feel hurt and saddened knowing that there is still contact with the other man involved in the affair."

zorweb:

"Yes you should say something to her. It’s important, even in Plan A, to tell the WS how their continued contact affects, how you feel about it. Just be sure to do it in a non love buster way. One way that works well is in a letter. Then your emotions cannot get in the way and you are sure to cover what you wanted to say."

I have thought of an email as one way of getting my point across without LBing. But I'll probably talk 2 her.

h4f:

Dang! I thought you'd distappeared! Glad 2 hear from you:

"I know you want to believe that you can totally Plan A yourself into a wholly honest and loving relationship with your wife, but I'd say you have a better chance at winning the lotto...twice."

You know, I probably do want 2 believe that love will conquer everything, but at the same time I've realized that it probably can't. I have always said "Lord (and I'm an atheist), I'd gladly pay for the lottery ticket after the fact if you'd just let me win the one time!" No response.

"These problems won't go away just because you want them to, and I know that we'd like to believe that love is the key, but it's only the key to one door. There are many that need opening, and some require other things to open them."

And sometimes the bulldozer through the <occupied> bathroom wall is the only way in.

I've been cautiously building up deposits in HER piggy bank these past 2 months because I want 2 make it increasingly difficult for her 2 choose the measly-brown, Rat Meat side of the fence over her own family when the time comes. Sure, I wish it would be enough by itself 2 just love the livin' $h!t out of her, but I guess I expected that it wouldn't be. And the other reason, of course, for waiting is that I haven't wanted 2 repeat the kind of confrontation I had in mid-July. ...I'd REALLY rather just drain the LB$ dry and blow off the M than go through that crappy game-playing again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>MT:

If I get 2 the point where I don't have enough love left 4 her, I'll be ready 2 go straight 2 DV with a clear conscience that I did my damnedest, and start over someday with someone new. So, does that sound ill? I would almost welcome that as a sure way 2 end this nonsense without feeling as much hurt as I would if SHE left while I still love HER. Does that make sense?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2long -

Makes perfect sense to me. I really do not know how I would have handled things if my FWH had left me. I'd much rather be the one to say "no more - I'm outta here!"

I do think that you need to speak up and tell your wife how much you're hurting. It's hard to imagine, but maybe the WS really do think we're okay with this stuff when we're looking the other way. Or if not okay with it, at least willing to tolerate it indefinitely. Who knows??

And I really don't believe that Plan A alone was going to do it for me in my situation. The bond was WAY too strong.

MT

I'm a fan of communication so I vote with Pep.

I would probably just come right out and start it with " I noticed you shut the lap top screen when I came around the table, so I assume you have something to hide and still have contact. Do you want to talk about where we are there? "

I think you have gotten lots of good advice about sticking with what you feel, not about what she does, and think it is good.

And yes, I would restate your feelings about no contact and say you are just giving it your all for a while so you won't have guilt if it comes apart later. ( in your loving words, this is just the short version.)This, so she knows you know but are being nice anyway.

SS

Honestly, I think you're ready 2L. It's a golden Prozac moment! LOL!

~~~~~~

COFFEE MAN ... I'm gonna send a soprano to your house .... and he'll be carrying .... decaf. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I KNEW someone was gonna say "na-na YOU said YOU" .....

I wanna smack you upside da haid wid a marshmallow 2X4.

(Makes no sense ... but was fun to say)

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>By the way .... when you ask someone for NC ... what you're really asking for (underneath all the bull crap) ... is this:

This <activity> hurts me. Please stop hurting me.

Her decision is then whether or not she will hurt you by choice.

Pep</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pepper, I LOVED this!! This is so true. 2long, this is exactly the way I felt when I asked for the NC. And I do believe that my husband's response was to stop hurting me - it certainly wasn't because he didn't WANT to talk to her anymore. (Now I just pray that he's able to really keep the NC going...)

MT

All plans derailed. W had rotten day. Jobsite wants her 2 cut next contract in half.

THEN, SIL said someone's trying 2 break in2 house we're in escrow, so I called 911, they're sending a car there and one here and W got tweaked and ran off saying she was going there 2 confront? I tried 2 go along, but while I grabbed my sandles, she left.

I'm sick of this crap. I quit.

2long,

Quit?!?!? Not by a long shot! Ooops 'shot' bad word around us BS?!?!!? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Ok, now what happened? Was there a crook creepin' around your house?!?!? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Before I read your last post, I was going to tell you to start sniffing the air when around your W.

sniff, sniff "hm.... what is that smell?!?!?" (rat meat). "you know honey, something is making uncomfortable, something just doesn't smell right. What is it?!?!?"

W looking dazed and confused? "smell what?"

2long: "I am not sure, something kinda stinky. Like a dead rat or something." Keep a straight face now!!!

Then just walk away. At a later point, let her know that you are not feeling safe around her. She asks why just say, 'you know kinda like d/d again. Now why would I feel that way?' Let her give you an answer.

I used this tactic on my Ws and he spilled his guts (kept spilling guts, no wonder they get soo skinny in the A - LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ).

JMHO,
L.