MT:

I should clarify. Because my W had said something about wanting 2 go away from all this stress and us for 6 months and be by herself, I brought up the fact that I was comfortable being alone when she's been gone for an extended period of time, and that was the example I used.

No, it still doesn't explain or justify her hiding her laptop screen, but I expected something like that.

I love her, though. Hope she pulls her head out of her butt and loves me back soon. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>MT:

I love her, though. Hope she pulls her head out of her butt and loves me back soon. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know you love her. I sure hope she realizes SOON how much she's got to lose here. And now I understand better about the comment from 3 years ago. She sounds really hurt about some really old stuff, and I can really relate to that. Even after several months of "recovery" I was asking my FWH about meeting some of my EN's and I was told that I hadn't worried about his all those years. (THAT was THEN, THIS is NOW. I didn't even know what an EN WAS until recently. I do know that I failed miserably in the past - he knows that I know that. I wish had been able to go into this marriage knowing how to do it all right.) I was really blown away. I really thought we were both in the "now" not the "then." But all these hurts are hard to get past.

This may be a really stupid question, but have you ever talked to her about how she would feel if the roles were reversed? (I have to be honest; my FWH absolutely HATED these questions, by the way. But I'm hoping that some people might actually bring themselves to think about this kind of thing. My husband wanted absolutely NO PART of putting the shoe on the other foot, however fair a question that might be. I just think that question must wake some people up.) I know when you're in the "look the other way" mode, you don't ask these things. Just curious, and again, probably a very stupid question.

MT

Your life, and your M cannot progress as long as you and your W are keeping secrets like this.

You really should insist on NC. Obviously, if it hasn't happened on its on, it's not gonna.

MT:

Several people have asked me if I've asked my W what if the roles were reversed.

I've never asked her that, and this is why:

W: "You should find somebody better."

She's needed 2 justify her behavior by encouraging me 2 behave similarly. I truly believe that if the shoe were on the other foot, she THINKS she'd be happy because it would justify her behavior all these years. If I were 2 actually PUT the shoe on the other foot, I bet she'd be pi$$ed.

On the other hand, I'd be sick of myself at the same time, so I really don't think I'd be interested in doing that... ...there are a lot of pretty chicks out there though! 'DOH!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Seriously, I've had crushes on at least 2 other women during our M. My W told me recently that she was aware of them. I told her that the difference between what happened with them and what happened between her and Rat Meat is that, in both cases, I NEVER said anything 2 those 2 women. Eventually the feelings faded. Now that I've been subjected 2 an A, I think I'd be even less likely 2 be interested in having one myself. Yecch!

Riff:

Yep.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2L:
"All the above is correct, except I don't plan 2 go 2 plan B. If we can't 2rn this around and get NC, I will file and we will work 2gether on an amicable separation of property." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">cantaloop responded:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm just curious, but why not? in SAA SH profiles a couple who took 2 years to get back together, with about a yr. of that in plan B. Also, he believes that by executing the plan B, after the plan A, if the marriage does go to D, the BS is much more emotionally prepared for the D and recovers much more quickly </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have to play a little Devil's advocate here because I have been thinking of this very thing recently. When I had my D-day, and WW walked out and filed for DV, I instituted the Plan B. Well, here I am today DEFINITELY going to be Dv'ed.

I think 2Long's assessment of going straight to Plan D may not be as "rushed" as it may seem. First, let me state that I basically do understand the reasonings of the MB principles, and want to adhere to them as much as possible.

But...think about it...in most instances, Plan B is really a Plan D, just without the paperwork. I know that may be a big thing to most, but really, the criteria for having a good R, or a chance for reconciliation, are the same regardless. I truly do not think that a Plan D is any more harmful to the already "harmed" R than a Plan B.

In my case, I actually would have been better off if I had gone straight to Plan D. I would be much further advanced in a lot of areas that I voluntarily put on hold, and a lot of areas that were put on hold for me, since I was still legally married. If I had went to Plan D, instead of Plan B, I would still be in the same boat as to my M with the WW. Nothing would be different.

Speaking from my experience, once you decide to "detach", you still are going to go through the withdrawal from the WS. It didn't matter a hoot whether or not I was in B or D. Gonna detach either way.

So...My experience is that in some of us, Plan B is akin to saying "We're gonna kill you, so you will be familiar with death, before you die". See my point?

I really believe that a lot of WS's would get it quicker if we went straight to Plan D. Blind-side 'em like no other. Whup that fog outta here!

Since Plan B is to help us "detach", isn't it safe to assume that we are laying the groundwork for the WS to "detach" also? Hell, since they are the WS anyway, it is probably easier for them in a lot of cases. They are almost there already.

IMHO, there is NO easy way to detach. I really do not think you can prepare for it. You either choose to do it while in Plan B, or do it in Plan D. The "detaching" is the same.

The only difference being the legality of it. If that hinders the renewal of the R, then it's not much of an R to begin with. If the big "D" doesn't bring reality to the forefront, then I don't think that a perfect Plan B will, either. At least not in my case.

I would like to see J.R.'s opinion on these thoughts, since he is just a step or two behind me and has went through the same phases of Plan A, B, and close to D for him (the only difference is me actually near a final DV). How about it, J.R.? Even with hindsight 20/20, do you think that a Plan B "detachment" was easier than if you had went straight to Plan D? Or am I the only one feeling this way?

Spacecase, I think, posted some interesting poll figures about the percentage of S's re-marrying after Dv'ing. I know that it was much higher that the affairees marrying each other. So...all is not lost in a Plan D, either. My WW, and a have heard of a few more, really BELIEVE that a Plan D will give a fresh start. I know that is fog-talk, and sounds ridiculous, but...if THEY believe it, then.......???? I know that is my WW's way of thinking that if we "start over", then I wouldn't have the "right" to say anything about the A. The A would be a "previous" R. To her, it would supposedly become irrevelant. Aren't WE as BS's looking for a new start? Isn't it possible to be in a sitch such that following the WS's philosophy is our BEST chance at reconcilation, should that be what we desire? Sure...One has circumvented the process, and hasn't "processed" the reasons for the A, and such. But...will your next "love" have undergone the changes and understanding that THEY may need? Or are we going to be getting into a new R with the EXACT same problems? Problems that are identical to what we left behind? Am I coming "unglued" here?

Really, sometimes I feel that I would have handled it much better to go to D. Then, I would have been ready to "bite the bullet". Instead, I spent 4 months hoping to "detach", but still hoping for a positive outlook. Seriously, it's pretty hard to let go, when you hope you don't have to.

Geez, 2Long....I've REALLY hijacked your thread!

Why didn't youo tell me to shut-up? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

HCII

hcii:

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I think you make some very good points.

I've been thinking a lot last night and 2day. Mainly about this entire thread and why I posted it. The "laptop incident." And all the other stuff that's run through my mind since then.

What do I want, anyway? Well, I want my M. How am I going 2 get that back? Well, it's never left. It's messed up, but it's NEVER left! My WW has never left me and her kids, has never really wanted 2, has WANTED 2 fix this but doesn't know how.

So, what am I going 2 do? Well, like I said the last couple days, mainly out of my frustration and some actual anger, I'm not going 2 plan B. But I don't think I'm going 2 plan D either. I'm not going 2 tolerate Rat Meat forever either. But I realized something profound during the past couple of days, and that is that the "laptop incident" and all the brainfarts I've had since then are about my frustration with this having gone on for 8 months now, NOT about the "threat" of Rat Meat. He is truly becoming a non-issue with me. And so what do I think that will mean in the long term? He'll disappear, because my W won't need him anymore. Look, my focus on him all those months (like up until about 2 months ago) has made it impossible for me 2 face MY shortcomings that enabled the A 2 happen in the first place. Now I can, because he's NOT the problem (I know, he never was, but it's one thing 2 know that intellectually and another 2 KNOW THAT and be able 2 live it). It 2k me 6 months for that evolution in my thinking 2 occur.

My sitch has felt precarious at a number of points along the way because *I'M LIVING IN IT*, not because it's really precarious. It's certainly not been as close 2 futile as many I've read about on this 4um. Rat Meat lives a thousand miles away and hasn't seen my W in about a year. They've not been running off 2gether during lunch or after work every day.

My plan? Plan A until I die. Period. I will keep plan D on the back burner, but it's going 2 be relegated so far on the back burner so that it doesn't impact my behavior 2ward my W and bring her down or make her feel like I'm about 2 punish her if she says anything hurtful 2 me. Then, I believe we have a real chance 2 discuss things like NC and recovery, because RECOVERY is the primary goal, and will be at the top of my thoughts while I go forward.

I, 2long, say so, say so. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

2long:

I just want to say I admire your honesty, the great love and devotion you have for your W and your M, and your commitment to making things work for the both of you. If you have found in your inner-growth, the strength and the mindset to accept things as is (for now) and concentrate on the positives, than more power to you! I only wish I saw enough redeeming qualities in my own R with my W to have that same kind of feeling of wanting to make it workout, but as you have recently seen in my latest posts, I am dealing with much more than just her retaliation PA's to my EA. But I really didn't want to digress into my stuff here; I am just giving you my positive support in your newfound realizations and the actions that you have now dedicated yourself to taking. The MB principles are good, and they work for most, but not everyone can follow them to the letter with a good feeling in their heart and mind. Each of our journeys is a personal one and only you can truly assess yourself and your situation (you are living in it). Just keep an open mind and stay rooted in reality I can't help but to see in my mind's eye the old cartoon where adversaries face each other and one draws a line in the dirt daring the other to cross the line, but when the other person crosses the line, they just draw another one further back and dare them to cross it again, over and over again, never really intending to have a final showdown. Despite your new position and approach you still must have some solid ideals and plans to base your opinions and actions on. There has to be a "line" that cannot be crossed without some adverse consequence, or a "showdown" of sorts. Hell, you could have several defined lines, each with its own set of actions that you will take in the face of different transgressions. It doesn't have to be an All or Nothing proposition, which is probably what you don't like about Plan B or Plan D. You want to stay on the front lines, fighting the good fight for your M, and I say best of luck to you, my friend! I wish you much success in reaching your ultimate goal. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Blind Sided:

THanks!

Let's take that car2n analogy of yours a step further, or maybe a step sideways:

My W stepped across the first line I drew in the sand. Well, no she didn't. I drew the line behind her, because she'd already crossed it before I knew she had. Now, she's trying 2 step back across the line, but has never done that before and doesn't know how 2, or whether the "sand" on that side of the line will be greener than on the side she's on. What do I do? Build a fence on that line before she crosses back 2 my side? I feel like I was doing that up until 2 months ago. No, I'm painting the sand green so she'll want 2 come back on her own. The side she's on is brown, and it STINKS, 2!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

2long, great choices you are making.. so glad for you the op is sooo far away, that helps.

I admire and respect plan a for life. I would not even mention a D EVER unless you are presenting the paperwork... it is too harmful to a marriage...

I do think ratmeat will go away. I do think being the best 2long you can be will be the way to win your wife to being a better wife to you.

hey it even works for my nutball h. He is even being nice again today... better, that is. I know he loves me, and when I act nutty, I get that back. when I act kind I get back that... sometimes it gets old , but in the end.. i believe plan a'ers have better recovery.

Luck and love, Honey

2Long...well, OK, but...

Why do you call him Rat Meat? Why did the "laptop incident" (sounds like a Harrison Ford movie!) get you so tweaked?

The answer of course is b/c continued contact bothers you. So, another question...

Why did she lie to you about the "laptop incident?"

The answer here is b/c she knows that continued contact bothers you and hurts your relationship.

I have lived in similar circumstances as you. And I can tell you that her interest in him is not going to just diminish and go away. It just doesn't work like that (c'mon, you've read the posts). My W was continuing contact after 18 MONTHS! How do you think you'll feel 18 MONTHS from now? You'll be a basket case. You surely won't trust her anymore than you do now.

So, my friend, despite your noble-sounding intentions, I regret to inform you that you are dodging the inevitable. And if you think it will be hard to broach the subject now, believe me after 18 MONTHS, your wife will think you've changed the rules. Your silence on this is your consent that it continues.

Hey guys, I've been absent mainly in an effort to refocus back on myself... but I'm still here and noticed my "name" being mentioned...

About Plan B vs. D... My take is that you see two classes of WS... those who really believe that they want Dv, and those who think they might but deep down know they don't. I think hcii's WW is the former... I honestly think mine might be the latter, given that she's always avoided the topic.

Maybe that warrants an update... Last I mentioned, I'd been talking Plan D... and I'm still thinking about it, but right now, I just don't have the energy or time to care to be honest. In fact, I've thrown all this back at her to deal with. I've "outed" her new A, let her know that I know, and told her in no uncertain terms that I won't participate in the "triangle" any longer... that I'm done with the lies, I'm done with the drama, I'm done with being made to feel like this is a competition, etc. I tried to do it as non-LB as possible, although that wasn't my main focus - it was to be blunt with my position and feelings. I also asked her to not contact me as protection for my feelings. So in a sense, I've established some very tough Plan B boundaries, also laying out what I expect of her - and that I'm only willing to consider it today - maybe not "tomorrow".

My parents are visiting me this week, and she knows that. I also know that she's currently stressed out beyond belief - enough to be physically ill. I think she sees her house of cards starting to tumble... she knows I'm no longer going to participate in the "dance" any longer. I've also changed my direct deposit - something I know she's noticed recently, and would be something that would signal my level of seriousness.

I've also thrown it out to her that I'm ready for her to go ahead with a Dv - that it's still not my preference, but I'm "ready"... much like some of Orchid's reverse babble... but the key is that I've put the onus back on her to do the work - something I know she doesn't want to do, but now must face it as another element of reality.

And that's where I think Plan B is "good"... Reality is, if one is Dv'd, they're not going to be "pals" with the WS... or at least it's pretty hard to do / expect, given circumstances. With kids, sure, one will attempt to have a decent relationship for their sake. But without 'em, it's only reasonable to cut ties completely - to promote healing. It also protects the BS's LB$, under the assumption that the BS still wants to work on the M in some way, if conditions are met.

But let's all be perfectly honest here... even in Plan B, a BS's LB$ will still drain. It's inevitable - to have thoughts in the back of one's mind about the hurt and so on. It's part of the acceptance process to let go and in doing so, the LB$ will eventually "close". That's when the Dv becomes much easier... because acceptance is already reached.

But there are cases where Dv has been used much as Plan B... I can think of a couple specific examples here on MB where a BS moved towards Dv and the WS started to "wake up" because of it.

In the end, I don't know if there's much of anything we can "do" as BS's to elicit an "outcome" in our favor... that relies on the WS "figuring things out" - and that's something they'll either do or not do on their own, Dv or no Dv, Plan B or no Plan B. Shining reality on the A can give them some critical information that may help them make a decision, but it's still very much up to them.

I think the BS pushing forward with Dv makes sense when they're truly ready for it... not just in words, but in every possible way. It's a very personal thing. As for Plan B, it's also very personal too. I think those who aren't able to do a good Plan B (okay, I'm looking at myself, I will admit - or at least I wasn't able to before) are certainly not ready for Dv. So why not try Plan B, even if just for a little while. I like it because it doesn't let the WS "escape" from their responsibility and say, "well, BS just quit on me." Maybe my vindictive side likes that element.

So I'm doing okay... the Prozac isn't making me euphoric or anything, but I'm not losing it either. Been having a good time with my parents, showing them around, keeping them busy. And as I said, I know WW is under some extreme stress, now only having OM #3 and her GF back home to turn to, and also knowing that I'm incredibly resolved right now... standing my ground...

No I won't back down
No I won't back down
You can stand me up at the gates of h3ll
No I won't back down

2L, I think you're right about Rat Meat... he's a non-issue. He really is. The issue appears to be that your W is using him as a "crutch"... but a crutch that's needed less and less and you appear to be handling things well. At the same time, it's not unreasonable to expect her to cast him off sometime... don't let yourself settle for less... I think you need to deal with the issue by dealing with her, your feelings, and creating a "new dynamic" that allows that to happen. And I'm not talking about Plan B, but maybe some other way to open things up... more honesty and openness from her, and from you, not needing to feel like ignoring her bad behavior. Of course, if I had the perscription for that, I'd be making $200 / hr as a therapist, but I'm not...

Riff:

"Why do you call him Rat Meat?"

because M***** F***** is a bit 2 harsh, even for Rat Meat, and I can't spell it out on the 4um.

"Why did the "laptop incident" (sounds like a Harrison Ford movie!) get you so tweaked?
The answer of course is b/c continued contact bothers you."

Yep.

"So, another question...
Why did she lie to you about the "laptop incident?"
The answer here is b/c she knows that continued contact bothers you and hurts your relationship."

Yep.

"I have lived in similar circumstances as you. And I can tell you that her interest in him is not going to just diminish and go away. It just doesn't work like that (c'mon, you've read the posts)."

Yes, I have read the post. Posted many of them, 2. I don't agree with all of them.

"My W was continuing contact after 18 MONTHS! How do you think you'll feel 18 MONTHS from now? You'll be a basket case."

I'll be pi$$eder than I am now, that's for sure.

"You surely won't trust her anymore than you do now.
So, my friend, despite your noble-sounding intentions, I regret to inform you that you are dodging the inevitable. And if you think it will be hard to broach the subject now, believe me after 18 MONTHS, your wife will think you've changed the rules. Your silence on this is your consent that it continues."

Did I ever say I wasn't going 2 talk 2 her about it?

J.R.:

One good reason for NOT doing plan B when one has a house 2 rebuild and a family 2 support and another "house on the way" is that plan B is DIFFICULT and EXPENSIVE. My W doesn't spend money on Rat Meat, never did. We have 2 deal with each other in putting the house back 2gether and line up temporary housing for ourselves and our kids for at least another year the rate things are going right now.

"2L, I think you're right about Rat Meat... he's a non-issue. He really is. The issue appears to be that your W is using him as a "crutch"... but a crutch that's needed less and less and you appear to be handling things well. At the same time, it's not unreasonable to expect her to cast him off sometime... don't let yourself settle for less... I think you need to deal with the issue by dealing with her, your feelings, and creating a "new dynamic" that allows that to happen. And I'm not talking about Plan B, but maybe some other way to open things up... more honesty and openness from her, and from you, not needing to feel like ignoring her bad behavior. Of course, if I had the perscription for that, I'd be making $200 / hr as a therapist, but I'm not..."

But you should be making $200 bucks an hour because this is a good plan. Well, I think it's good because that's what I realized I've been doing now for 2 months. We are getting closer and are getting more able 2 talk about sensitive issues 2gether. This will work.

If it doesn't there's always that back burner plan.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>Riff:

"Why do you call him Rat Meat?"

because M***** F***** is a bit 2 harsh, even for Rat Meat, and I can't spell it out on the 4um.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Plus it's 2long <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

TMCM:

"Plus it's 2long"

You guy!!! I suppose I coulda used "Mo' Fo'".

"Kindness can be a thousand times more powerful, and TERRIBLE, than vindictiveness."

Was this in Dune? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>
"Kindness can be a thousand times more powerful, and TERRIBLE, than vindictiveness."

Was this in Dune? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually it's something that my xWW told me just recently.

TMCM:

Hm... kind of dis2rbing, actually.

Reminds me of a line out of a Concrete Blonde song that my W really likes (particularly in the past several months, she's REALLY starting 2 like POSITIVE things lately <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ):

"Life is beautiful and terrible and strange."

Interesting song, if rather depressing. But that line, and the fact that my W liked it so much, was particularly dis2rbing 2 me. But like I said, she's being a lot more positive than she has before lately. And it's nice! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Why can't you write proper english like everyone else?

<small>[ September 28, 2002, 11:44 AM: Message edited by: relate ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>TMCM:

Hm... kind of dis2rbing, actually.

Reminds me of a line out of a Concrete Blonde song that my W really likes (particularly in the past several months, she's REALLY starting 2 like POSITIVE things lately <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ):

"Life is beautiful and terrible and strange."

Interesting song, if rather depressing. But that line, and the fact that my W liked it so much, was particularly dis2rbing 2 me. But like I said, she's being a lot more positive than she has before lately. And it's nice! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes it's disturbing but oh so true. Just read Hopeful Person's thread titled 'The nightmare I created, please help me' and you'll see why I put my xW's statement. Or hcii's farewell to his xWW during the final signing of divorce papers. Both men's kindness caused their xWW's natural defenses to implode and there was nothing to protect them from their own consciences brutal condemnation for the actions they committed against their BH's, the M, and themselves. So now you know why I agree that kindness is indeed more powerful and terrible than vindictiveness.