</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by davepr:
<strong>
In reality, things were not that good, she said that she cried herself to sleep every night, missed her old life, her old friends, her house, her children, the comfort of what was familiar to her and eventually she missed me. ( I had no clue this was what was going on, I was the last one she was going to show this to)

My point is that you really don't know what is going through his head, my guess is he is probably torn inside and has a hard time dealing with himself, avoiding you avoids his own conflict. Eventually he will have to face his own deamons and deal with this if he ever wants to have any piece of mind.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks Dave, I really needed those comments today. When WH first started slipping out of the fog a couple of months ago, he basically told me the same thing. He told me that even though he "seemed" happy, he was depressed, and wasn't happy at all, but then told me of course I was the last person he would say that too.

He told me this several times during his slip out of the fog. Also told me that he did not pursue a divorce because he was not for sure he wanted it.

But fast forward until now, it seems as if he is trying to convince himself that he is better off without me. However, when I think about him, he just seems like a scared little child.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by blondblossom:
<strong>G_C,
just wanted to ask you something. Does your H still have all of his stuff at your house???
You had said that he had brought back all of his things from OW house, is it still at your home?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Blondblossom: Yes, he does, in fact he has added things here and there as well. He had bought a couple of more DVD's and he has put them away with the others. (He took the time to drag a cabinet all the way upstairs and set it up to put all approximately 800 DVDs in there, and yes, that number is correct, WH admits that he spends too much money when depressed).

hey, just starting thinkng about his adding stuff to his collection AT HOME- that is awesome!

I am glad he still comes by, has his stuff there and adds to it.. it is obvious this is his home base.. despite his travles and wanderings

Reminds me of that song travelin' man- I Think that was it?

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Take care, HONEY

A little update, WH and I always buy the Hallmark ornaments, he has been collecting them since he was a child. We have always made a point to get them the first day during the July and OCtober releases.

This weekend, the October ones are coming out. So I sent WH the following email, knowing this would be a Plan A action towards him:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">do you want me to pick up the ornaments this weekend? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now, I assumed his reply would be something like that theres no point, that he will pick up the ones he wants and I can get my own.

but here is his response:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> if you are offering, mom and I could as well. Maybe we will all go out
to dinner one night, no promises though.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What??? Shock!! His mom lives another state and must be up visiting family. Now remember, one of WH's hugest concern was that MIL and myself would not get along, especially since she has "supported" the affair. And always, he has to put the "no promises" clause in there!!

So my response was:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">oh, I didn't realize your mom was in town, I'd like to see her. She could
offer us some good advice on the flooring.

I have the ornament book at home, I knew there was some you want, and some
I wanted as well. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I haven't seen his response yet, as I had to leave for a dr. appt and I stopped by my house on the way back to work for lunch.

How was that for a response, I didn't ask when, but just acknowledged that I would like to see her, which can be a huge LB$ deposit. Also, this came as a surprise, I have not seen MIL for almost 2 years, which was before WH left.

<small>[ October 03, 2002, 01:06 PM: Message edited by: going_crazy ]</small>

Honey, your'e gonna have to find that song, it can be our theme song.

I did receive a response back to my email that said the following:

"
There are 3 star wars ones, Mom is coming in tonnight, we are staying at the
Hampton in X. That was in the e-mail I sent you that you did not
get"

so he told me that his mom is at a hotel, not at OW's like before, cool!
!

It seems like you really love him, and I can tell that you are really attracted to him. He must be quite a handsome man.

You are an engineer. Just curious as to what the OW does. It would help to attract him if you are active and have a great figure. How about joining a gym? I find it relaxing and you meet a lot of nice people. If you get into doing light weights and a 20 minute run 3 or 4 times a week, after about 2/3 months you get really toned.

- relate

G_C,

your reaction is "FANTASTIC!" If I was a guy, I'd fall in love with ya!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
You seem to be getting so strong, gosh, I'm so happy for you!!!!
Stick to this, you sound so positive. I hope that these changes make you feel "comfortable" inside of yourself too. When we feel good about ourselves "deep inside" others will notice this too. It can be like a magnet for others. It is very inspiring.
I can really only tell you that you sound like the woman in the movie that I had seen. She was very calm, understanding and soft-hearted. Most of all she would either say things that were positive or nothing at all. What her H loved the most was that she was the best "listener" in the world.

This is something that is very attracting. I don't want to sound phony but I love your additude!!!!!!!

hugs
bb

thanks for the advice Relate, I have began to work out quite a bit more to my Firm tapes, I used to be a member of the local gym, however it was overcrowded in the evening and did not open up early enough to go to work. I loved to do kickboxing there,however the classes were already full by the time I got there (no pre-sign ups) My firm tapes do use weights in them, I love them

My figure is decent, need a tone up in my rear and arms, I'm 5'3 and wear 2's and 4's, so he can't complain that I'm fat. In fact, when he was slipping out of the fog, he had lifted me up to give me a huge bear hug, and made the comment about how light I was. That means light in comparison to OW, yeah!! I have heard that she was overweight and than lost but then gained.

OW does something in the environmental field, like my husband, maybe toxic waste will rot her

Blondblossom:
Now, my job is to not bring up the dinner, right? I can't even believe he even through it out at me, unbelievable. I see this as so positive because I have not seen anyone in his family since before he left, because he did not want to confuse things. Ok, I learned the last time, not to push, AT ALL!!!

<small>[ October 03, 2002, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: going_crazy ]</small>

WOW, glad to hear he wants you for dinner with Mom , not ow. I am sure that is cooling off still.

It takes a while to break up, unfortunately. Keep being the beutiful person you are, shine, shine.

I do need to remember the name of that song... maybe it is rambling man... ws used to joke that was him , before he met me, and used to say he and his dog, smut , loved that song, rambling man. Smut is no longer around, bless his heart... but if he was, he would have something to say about this mess.

Hugs, HONEY <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

well.....dinner is not definite yet!!! But just the likelihood of it could be positive

G_C,

you've really got it now!!!! WOW <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> No pressure at all! No expectations!
It's a "baby-step" that he even considers dinner with you and his mother. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> He's thinking, that's for sure.
I read the 2 chapters about "The surrendering Wife". All you have to comment is: "Whatever you think."

Even though the dinner might not become reality, he is telling you what he is thinking.
This is definately "positive"!!!!!!!!!!!

Indirectly I would actually say that he misses his "old life."

Your H still sounds very insecure. And remember, mothers can have alot of power. He seems to have a very good relationship with his mother and he now might be getting his "strength" from her.

Hold back and stick to your plan! You're a fantastic woman and something still connects you and your H. Have patience.
(He still hasn't filed for divorse has he?)

hugs
bb

<small>[ October 04, 2002, 02:38 AM: Message edited by: blondblossom ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by blondblossom:
<strong>
you've really got it now!!!! WOW <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> No pressure at all! No expectations!
It's a "baby-step" that he even considers dinner with you and his mother. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> He's thinking, that's for sure.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">yep, not expecting anything, that way I don't set myself up for disappointments later

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by blondblossom:
<strong>I read the 2 chapters about "The surrendering Wife". All you have to comment is: "Whatever you think."</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That book really, really helped me understand my "controlling" nature that I have, I wish I would have read it right before he tried to come back instead of later.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by blondblossom:
<strong>Your H still sounds very insecure. And remember, mothers can have alot of power. He seems to have a very good relationship with his mother and he now might be getting his "strength" from her. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">this could be good or bad, his mom accepts OW and thinks we should get divorced, I'm scared she might be too influential in that way. thats why I hope that we do go to dinner

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by blondblossom:
<strong>(He still hasn't filed for divorse has he?)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not that I know of, hopefully his mom won't convince him to

Why is his mom against you? Can you not try to improve your standing with her. I don't know how effective it will be if you try to talk to her and ask her to help bring you two back together.

<small>[ October 04, 2002, 05:34 PM: Message edited by: relate ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by relate:
<strong>Why is his mom against you? Can you not try to improve your standing with her. I don't know how effective it will be if you try to talk to her and ask her to help bring you two back together.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She lives in another state so I don't have any contact with her. When WH first left (and just said he did not love me,and that was it). I called her and asked if she knew anything.

She basically told me, "well you two haven't been happy for a long time (huh??), I just want you both to be happy, its probably for the best since you don't have kids.

about 3 weeks after he left (before I found out about OW), WH came over to "talk" about divorce and splitting things up. I had just gotten home from church, was very sick to myself (I hadn't been eating well), and told him this was not a good time to talk, I did not feel well.

WH went crazy on me, started picking up things and throwing them, took a honeymoon picture and smashed it on the ground shattering it, I calmly asked him to leave, he wouldn't just kept screaming at me to "get it through my head, he wasn't coming home, EVER".

He wouldn't leave, and started towards the wedding pictures (you know how much those cost!), I then called 911 and the police came over. They told him to grab some of his stuff and leave, which he did.

I talked to him a few minutes later on his cell and told me his mom was angry at me and I had no reason to call the police (she wasn't there).

So, I called her, explained my situation, admitted that I may have overreacted, but could not deal with his anger. She basically told me that for me doing that to him, he will never come home to me.

Anyway, about a week later, I found out he was living with OW, when I left his apartment, I called his mom again, and said now I know why he left, she denied everything about knowing about him and OW, found out from WH she knew all along.

Ever since then, WH and OW have visited her, when she comes up to see WH, she stays with them, etc.

A little history, WH's mom and dad also divorced due to infidelity, his dad cheating on his mom. They still hate one another to this day.

My husband says he respects his mom opinion and values her opinion the most because she has been in my shoes, she knows that there is absolutely no way that you can recover from an affair, and she never regrets divorcing his dad. (BTW, she went on to marry a millionaire).

So, everytime it seems that his fog is lifting, he leaves town to visit his mom to clear his head, and comes back in a more foggier state.
Shes also been giving him money all along.

It really truly hurts me, because I thought that myself and MIL had a great relationship, I felt closer to her than my own mom, and it hurts really bad. one of WH's biggest concerns is how I am going to deal with her if we were ever to get back together.

I do not agree with what she has done, but can understand. WH is an only child, only grandchild, and has been fed with a silver spoon from day one. Her new husband is about 20 years older than her, after he has passed, my husband is the only one she has left, shes not very close to her brother at all. I do realize that she does truly want his happiness, but I also wish that she would give us a chance.

does that make sense?

Woah! The police!! She will not forgive you for that. Maybe you need to say that you are sorry you did that.

It seems like he can't just leave you. He has this inner need for you to accept and give him permission to leave.

G_C,

try to think in a complete Plan A modus. You can even Plan A his mother. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
Just a thought. Mothers tend to defend their "little boys" no matter what. Mother + son relationships can be very complicated. But blood is thicker than anything when it comes to mothers and sons.

One thought got to my mind. It could be a possibility to break through to your MIL heart.
Have you ever considered to write her a letter. One that expresses your "good + respectfull" feelings for her? (well, even if it isn't completely true at all times.) But a letter to explain to her that she is a great mother and it took her wisdom to "create" such a great son.
I would not mention anything else about "WH", I would just express to her that you have thought about so much and that her way of thinking has "tought" you alot about life and that no matter what happens, she is a precious and very "wise" woman.
I would write in the letter for her to please not tell WS that you wrote this letter to her, you just wanted to tell her your thoughts.

This is just a thought G_C. I don't know if you could do this. But I do know that this would probably have a very positive influence on your MIL. (and I'm sure she'd pass it over to your H) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I live in the same house as my MIL and we don't have the best relationship. I once had a very simular conversation with her (after she had found out about my H affair) she grabbed me after I had spoken and she almost "hugged" me to death. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
She told me: Oh god, no matter how I ever made you feel or how I treated you, I never wanted you to experience such pain! Since this day, she seems to see me with differnet eyes. She actually respects me and I don't beleive she will ever go against me again.
No matter how she makes me feel at times ( <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> ) she is the mother of the man that I love.
So you might want to consider to Plan A her and the outcome might become positive.

hugs
bb

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by relate:
<strong>Woah! The police!! She will not forgive you for that. Maybe you need to say that you are sorry you did that.

It seems like he can't just leave you. He has this inner need for you to accept and give him permission to leave.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I did apologize, to him and both his mom (on the phone that same day). He accepts my apology because of his behavior, I don't know how his mom feels. she wasn't here to see how crazy he went.

BTW, I think that is a pretty cruel comment to tell me that she will never forgive me for that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by blondblossom:
<strong>
One thought got to my mind. It could be a possibility to break through to your MIL heart.
Have you ever considered to write her a letter. One that expresses your "good + respectfull" feelings for her? (well, even if it isn't completely true at all times.) But a letter to explain to her that she is a great mother and it took her wisdom to "create" such a great son.
I would not mention anything else about "WH", I would just express to her that you have thought about so much and that her way of thinking has "tought" you alot about life and that no matter what happens, she is a precious and very "wise" woman.
I would write in the letter for her to please not tell WS that you wrote this letter to her, you just wanted to tell her your thoughts.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have thought about this several times. But I know she would call WH as soon as she got it, that is their relationship. Unfortunately, I think this will make WH very angry.

For example, I have sent Mothers Day cards, Christmas Cards, Birthday cards, to her. I receive nothing, it is like a fell off the face of the earth.

I do hope to see her while she is in town, but I am not counting on it.

GC -- I really feel for you with the MIL situation. I know what it's like to have a MIL that believes son is the golden boy and would do anything to protect him.

That said, I do think it's positive that WH is making these statements about possibly dinner (with MIL at that).

I am fortunate in that WH's brother and sister (who I told this week what was going on) are not at all supportive of his behavior. However, they both said they will not tell MIL or FIL as they know that MIL and FIL will probably make the situation worse/support WH in his delusional fantasy activities.

Blondblossom has given you some good advice/ideas to think about (as always). I know you've sent those cards to MIL and felt like you got nothing in return, which must be very hard. One thought I had (from my fundraising world/how do you suck up to people like MIL) is that you should look for articles that will interest her that you can mail with a personal note, such as "I saw this article on blahdeblah (dogs, horses, whatever her hobby is) and thought of you and your good taste in blahdeblah." Maybe it will seem fake/maybe not, but people usually love to be flattered in some personal way and you need to find that way that doesn't involve a comment on WH. Just a thought.

Maybe you can plan A in person when/if dinner and shopping for ornaments occurs.

I, too, have the MIL from h*ll. Sometimes you can sort the situation out with her, sometimes not. In my situation, my MIL is on marriage #3, all her previous marriages ended in divorce due to abandonment or infidelity(#3 has cheated on her twice). Even before FWH and I were married she was intrusive, controlling and manipulative. I always let my H deal with her, I felt is wiser to let her child tell her what the boundaries were. It didn't matter, she still interfered (and we've always lived at least 1000 miles away from her at all times).

Fast forward to d-day. My H told his mother what he had done. She said she couldn't condone his behaviour and would be there for both of us. Well, a couple of days later she calls him at work and starts asking about OW. Would she like OW, would OW like her and...what was OW's star sign so she could do their charts!! There is more as well!!

My FWH had an epiphany that day and realized she'd been trying to sabotage us all along. She saw we were vulnerable and she tried to take advantage of it. My H said he couldn't talk to her for awhile, we needed a break. A couple of months later my H and his mother talked and she denied ever saying any of it. She denied all the things that had happened!! My H lost it! He was so angry that her desire to 'save face' was more important than the truth and doing the right thing. We haven't spoken to her in almost a year. This has been the right choice for us, I don't recommend it for everyone. Our case was extreme.

Through MC/IC my H and I came to realize that my MIL saw my H (her son) as her 'emotional husband', someone who'd never leave her, who'd always be there. She saw me as the OW! That I'd taken him away from her. Bizarre, but true.

My point is, every situation is different and must be examined on it's own merits. It is up to the child to decide whether or not the relationship can work. Most importantly, the 'golden' child who can do no wrong needs time, experience and personal growth to realize that what he is being subjected to is not a healthy parent-child form of love.