I like the dancing thing Nick, but feel we're actually not dancing together yet.

I'm beat up Nick - not sure what will happen now. I'm glad it's over from H's point of view, just not sure if it's over from mine. Not sure I can do this anymore. I've tried hard, I have, and like alot of people here, have put up with a lot. I know H is the injured party, but I'm hurting badly too....

Lisa

Lisa,

If you are hurting and need a little TLC, tell your H. Seriously, just go over to him, and tell him you need him to hold you because you feel awful. You don't have to go into details, just tell him you need his help. He may laugh, or back up, but just look at him and tell him again. You need a friend and he has been elected.

Sounds pushy doesn't it? But this is part of the healing and it does send a message. What is the message? It is deep and complex and he won't even understand it for awhile.

Just go to him, hug him and tell him you need his help. You need a hug, a little peace, and time. So does he.

You don't know it Lisa, but you two are making progress, you really are. It is time for you to quit stepping away from the dance for fear of doing the wrong thing. You nor your H know if this is going to work out, right? But what I do know is that you both must risk letting the other know that you will try. As time goes on, the decision may be to end it or to rebuild it. But, that doesn't mean you or he should stand on the sidelines until you are sure. You won't be sure unless you get on Nick's dance floor and dance a few slow ones holding each other very close.

I don't know about the UK, but here we simply say: "this stuff takes guts". It is hard, but no matter how this marriage turns out you two can help each other, and yes even agree to help each other.

So give yourself and your H your best shot. Open up to him, you may get hurt, but I suspect you will respect yourself more and you will learn things about yourself you never knew.

You cannot heal him and he cannot heal you, but you two can help each other.

God Bless,

JL

Hello JL

Where have you been, away? I am hurting, but the thing is, I don't know if I can let H help me. I know that sounds crazy, because during all the hurt and upset for both of us, it's only truly been me and him there for each other. When I was really hurting, he was there for me, when he was, I was there for him.

I stand off and away from him - I'm on the sidelines and so is he. When he moves on to the dance floor, I back off and vice versa. It seems we can't quite get there together at the same time. Compared to when I first started posting here, I know we've come along way. Funny, I read some posts and what's happening for people, and I've been there!!!! It's a revelation to think some of the very worst times have been and gone. I'm not silly enough to think they may not come back, but surely not as they were or have been (even up until Monday just gone).

But one thing that hasn't changed at all, is whether or not I feel I want to be with H. All along I've said that I do love and care for him (obviously not enough to have the A), and that hasn't changed, but I don't know if I want to be with him (or him me), or can be after what's happened (him too). That is a fundamental for both of us.

I guess, I can answer what you may say to me now JL, "Time and Patience" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I know, I know. There are some things that no amount of MB will change - i.e. H is an attractive man, but I don't fancy him, it's not just the S thing.

So, I know I shouldn't say that things are at least calm, but they are again - mind you everytime I say that something kicks off again!

Thank you JL - as I said to Nick though, this last incident really feels like it has taken it's toll on me.

Lisa

(((((((Lisa)))))) What an awful situation; although, as a BS and someone whose career is very important to her, I did get a sick chuckle out of what your H did. I hope that the criminal charges resolve in his favor. I'll make a deal with you....I'll come over there an bop OM on the head if you will go to Farnborough and bop WH's OW on the head! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I feel so bad that you are trying so hard and this is what happens....

Regards,

Brit's Brat/BS-41
WH-43
DS-11 months
Status: One Day at a Time.

<small>[ October 02, 2002, 08:30 PM: Message edited by: Brit's Brat ]</small>

<strong>
as I said to Nick though, this last incident really feels like it has taken it's toll on me
</strong>[/QUOTE]

.. yes, it looks like it. but you know what? you wont get better, he wont feel better, your relationship wont be better if you keep reiterating on this point. And flying away wont help either.

You write that

<strong>When he moves on to the dance floor, I back off and vice versa. It seems we can't quite get there together at the same time.
</strong>

that's actually encouraging - all you have to do is let him try when it's 'his' turn.

Hey Lisa, How are things today? Thinking about you.

Regards,

Brit's Brat/BS-41
WH-43
DS-11 months
Status: One Day At A Time

Hi Nick/BB

First, BB thanks for the hug - still feeling a bit frail here. You know I think that would be an excellent idea about OP head bashing - might quell some of that anger and vengefulnees I feel towards OM right now!! I know it's not good for me, but I do want to get him back badly. It churns around inside about how nasty he was to do that and spiteful. I know I must drop it, but there are things I could do quite easily.... I have been very busy with work which is a good thing, but next week it calms down a little and then picks up again, but I have my Dr's appointment on Monday.

Nick, I know you're right - we both need to say enough about that (past situations etc.), what about now (not even future so much). How do we want to behave towards each other here and now? I think fundamentally, I'm scared - scared that something else will kick off or happen, scared that I don't love H enough and I'm not trying hard enough, scared that I don't know if I really want a M and would rather be single, scared that I've hurt H so incredibly that even if we do move forward but then things don't work out, he'll be hurt even more. This probably sounds incredibly selfish, but ever since D-day, I've been scared of doing the wrong thing, because basically the A was the wrong thing - big time.

Anyway, I'm back working at home today - loads to do, so best get on.

Thank you both for your comments and concern.

Lisa

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Hello NSST - you're keeping late hours tonight, everything OK, haven't seen you around in a while?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi, Lisa!

Yeah, been staying up late more and more lately. No real reason, I just get into playing on the computer sometimes.

Everything is hanging in there. No real status change with me and WW. She is still 'in love' with the OM, but has had no contact since August as far as I know. She is 'trying' to hang in there for the marriage, and for now, that is enough for me. We are getting along fine, actually better than ever.

She is open to MB principals, POJA and EN questionnaire, as well as the recreational activities survey. As soon as all the MB principals are being followed and agreed to by WW, I will want have another session with Jennifer for her to assess where we stand.

I have pretty well come to grips with the fact that I may be single again, even though the outlook for the marriage is much better now than it was 3 months ago. She is welcome to do whatever she wants - with my blessing. She has tried as best as she can, and that is all I ask of her.

My love for her is slowly being drained since she still has strong feelings for the OM, but I can hold out at least 2 more months. She has committed to be here at least 2 more months. (I know, she once committed for life...) I asked her about 4 months - probably. 6 months - maybe. So, all I really have now is time and patience.

I find myself thinking more and more about what my single life will be like, and not dreading it. She better wake up soon, or I will be gone.

Lisa, you two have come a long way in a short time. Believe it or not, I think you have an excellent chance to create the marriage of your dreams out of this situation. You and my WW feel somewhat the same way about your Hs, but not about the OM. I wish my wife had your attitude towards the jerk, but she doesn't care that he has no character and is a loser. Adolescent, romantic love at its finest. It is a nice feeling, but never lasts.

Good luck!

NSST in Texas - BTW, have you been to the old Texas embassy in London?

Hello NSST

It was good to hear from you - you'd gone a bit quiet recently. Another one who seems to have disappeared is Yellow Rose. Hope she's doing OK too.

Well, I know that hanging in there feeling!!! H is not really open to MB principals, because I think if he was Plan A-ing, it may make me feel more inclined to try harder and do better. As it is, we both just skip around each other. I hoped that H might consider the MB principals again, and maybe do the EN questionnaire, but he even gets cross with me being on forum here. I have to wait until he's not around. But at least here, you have anonimity and people who truly understand how you feel.

We went out with some of my cycling friends last night - my friend is just back from a 4 month trip of South America. It was the first time that H had met all of them together, although he's met some of them separately. My friend came in, and I gave him a big hug and kiss - he is gay, but H got really upset with me, not in a jealous way as there is nothing to be jealous about, but because he says I don't treat him as well. He's right, when he came in, I didn't treat him in the same way. H thinks that everyone else gets the best of me and he gets "sloppy seconds". Maybe as you say, one day it will be too late, and then I'll think what happened.

Well, OM, yeah, he bebehaved in the most dispicable way. I am angry, angry, angry with him, but I still have feelings for him. Just because someone is a jerk doesn't mean you stop caring about them. I know, I should just get over it.

NSST I am sorry that you think more often about a single life. If you prepare yourself for the worse, anything over and above will be better! I know, reverse logic or something, but hopefully if you consider it, something beter will happen. But, whether you do separate or not, you will know that you tried your best to make your M work and tried to be the best person you can be for yourself.

Anyway, I have to get back to work - yuk working on a Saturday and Sunday horrible, but that's being self employed for you!

Take care and let me know how you're doing.

Lisa

P.S. No, I haven't been to the Texas embassy, where is it?

Lisa,

I have been following some of your story and hope this finds you well...

I was glad to see in the post above that your husband was able to give you a clear emotional need of his that you could meet...

There are hundreds of posts here from people who would love nothing more than their spouse to give them concrete things that would make them feel loved.
Your husband stated clearly that He wants to feel that you think he is special...and that you are excited and happy to see him...What a gift he has given you...I hope you are/were able to hear what he said...and that you try to do this...

Based on his actions he is deeply hurt...but is still telling you in his way that he is willing to still try to feel connected and loved by you...that is a huge and noble gift he has given you...that even through all this mess he still values you and your love and attention. there is forgiveness in him saying he wants your attention.

You also talk of being afraid and we must, as all cliches seem to hold some truth,...face those fears...we can easily get caught up in feelings that hold us back from things to the point that they hold less truth in them...and become just a habit.
The potential to hurt our spouse is always with any and all of us...the holding back of our emotions based on this fear will not stop that...and will only serve to create even more regret and pain..fear that stops us...ultimately is the factor that creates exactly what we believe we are avoiding...

Also love is not just a feeling it is an action...and we must show our love in actions just as much as in feelings...Love for our spouses is never enough...it will die without energy, compassion, and acts. If the fear of not loving someone enough...(a nebulous concept)...holds us back from acting out love..we will again ultimately fail...

Be aware of setting yourself up based on fear...for what you fear may become a self-fullfilling prophecy...

Let go of your anger towards the OM...it will only serve to distract you from your goals...

Lisa I think you should commit to him to really try...really really try...focus on him...he is telling you he wants you to try...it sound like he wants you to fight for him...no more or no less than we all want our spouses to do....

Much luck to you...peace to you and your home.

ARK

Sorry Lisa,
when I read my post I was terribly afraid that it came off as if I was saying that being a WS makes you unlovable or not of value...

the part where I said ...

"Based on his actions he is deeply hurt...but is still telling you in his way that he is willing to still try to feel connected and loved by you...that is a huge and noble gift he has given you...that even through all this mess he still values you and your love and attention. there is forgiveness in him saying he wants your attention."

I hope it didn't come accross as if I think YOU are "bad" or unworthy or any thing else negative...I'm trying to say...is don't be afraid that he can't love you because of the pain of this..he is telling you he can and does...

All of us, BS/WS, are worthy of love...we are all highly valuable human beings...

hope that makes sense...peace
ARK

Hello Ark

Thank you for your thoughts and words. I always read everything carefully once and again.

You made a lot of sense to me, especially about the fear becoming self prophecy. I seem to get hung up on specific things: fear (as I said of everything, from being hurt more to doing the wrong thing), my inability to try harder and the fact that I do not find H physically attractive (to me). How an earth do you ever get that back? I don't know if perhaps that is the biggest obstacle.....

You are right that H clearly told me that, and without him actually doing the ENQ, I could probably make a very good guess at what his top 5 ENs would be - admiration would be one. I let him down by doing that last night, and as soon as he said it, I realised that I had. Why is it that other people can point the obvious out to you, but you don't get it yourself!

I wish I could just say "Right, this is it. We're through the very worst, let me just try and get on with trying to make my M work". It's not that difficult, but I get stuck in certain places.

Partly I think that although H does show some clear signals of wanting to recover, he still says very clearly that he is hurt too deeply. Partly, (and I want to hit myself over the head for this), I still miss OM. Partly, H does not want to address in any way the issues in our M where things had been going wrong. Although he says that he feels it is all his fault, inevitably he leaves it to me to always take full responsibility for everything. I find that hard, because I continue to beat myself up badly anyway for the A and why it happened.

Thank you again Ark. Whatever happens, I am so glad that I found MB and the support here is marvellous - insightful, kind, never judgemental and generally great!

Lisa

P.S. No I didn't at all Ark - don't worry! I think I still feel too bad about myself anyway to think that anyone else was criticising me! My self esteem is very low indeed - I don't feel worthy of much.

<small>[ October 05, 2002, 09:36 AM: Message edited by: Lisa in London ]</small>

Hey, Lisa...

According to this London restaurant's site:

http://www.texasembassy.com/texasmain.htm

"Today a lot of Texans consider their state a country, but from 1836 to 1845 it actually was a country called The Republic of Texas. The Republic set up an Embassy right here in London. It currently is the Berry Brothers wine store on St James Street."

England offered to help the Republic of Texas remain independent, but Texas went ahead and joined the U.S. in 1845. Too bad. Texas would be better off independent again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Guess so...

Lisa, I think the guide is wrong: Isn't it the Balls Brothers and not the Berry Brothers on St James? Used to be one of my favourite hangouts when I worked in the West End.

How was the weekend Lisa?

Hi NSST and Nick

I don't know that bit of Town at all, but I think you could be right Nick that it's Balls Brothers. Next time I'm that way I'll look it up. Texas as independent - now there's a thought! It's probably one of the few states I haven't been to - been in, through or to about 38 states.

Weekend was not so good really. After Friday night and upsetting H, things went calm again. I had to work a lot of the weekend to get a project finished by today. H knew that and was fine about it. I suppose I feel that we just sort of jog along a little bit.

On Sunday morning I knew he was cross. He went out very early to swim and when he came back he seemed a little better. He had bumped into an old friend of his who he used to work for. This guy went to Esporta and I said to H "Oh did you mention I go there, I haven't seen him". H said "No, but he knew, and he said how sorry and he couldn't believe it BLAH BLAH". Another of their mutual friends who H had seen told him. I felt awful again - I said to H it feels like he revels in the fact that someone else sympathises and knows what an an awful person I am. I felt that he took pleasure from telling me. (Not that I mind people sympathising with H, but I do mind people being judgemental of me - I wouldn't be of them, and they don't know the facts).

Of course, we got into another discussion/heated words. At one point H said "You say want you want to justify the A". I nearly lost it there and then - I cannot count the number of times I have told him (and said here), I will not ever justify the A. I was the only one responsible for my actions, irrespective of what was happening in my M. I really ranted then telling him to take it back or I wouldn't even carry on the conversation. He did, grudgingly.

H does not believe there was anything wrong in our M. He thinks I just went and did it because I thought I was psuedo single. He thought we were happy enough, even though I told him I was not happy. He said I should of told him. I said, in hindsight, of course I shouldn't have had the A, but should have told him. He said he would never ever do that to me, and that I could makes me the real "baddie" (my word not his, but that's what he was intimating). He said outright he would not even consider looking at the ENQ - he had been meeting my needs and frankly, if he's not now, he can't be bothered, because I need to fundamentally change and he doubts that I will. By this he means that I need to change my attitude about being "psuedo single" and put him at the centre of everything whereby everything else is prolifery (is that how you spell it). Actually, I pretty much think I've done that since he's been home - I rarely go out without him, and spend most of my time at home with him, or occasionally going to the gym.

So, another discussion ending with him saying he wants to leave and doesn't think he can ever get over it. Maybe he can't get over it. Maybe I can't.

I went to the Doctor today - she is really nice and I value her opinion and the way she is very supportive and caring (yeah, NHS too). Yup, she prescribed Anti-Ds, but also said to me, "You must stop blaming yourself and forgive yourself". I find it incredibly hard to do - I want to find some sort of place where I can move to, but with H saying things like he did at the weekend (about justifying the A), it makes me feel like such a cow again - maybe he's right.

So, another long winded saga, sorry about that. How are you Nick? Hope your weekend was more peaceful. What about you NSST - are things moving forward?

Sorry about this rant, that's all I seem to do nowaday, rant and rave, whine and feel sorry for myself. Must remind myself that it was only me that put me here.....

Lisa

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lisa in London:
<strong>Yup, she prescribed Anti-Ds, but also said to me, "You must stop blaming yourself and forgive yourself". I find it incredibly hard to do - I want to find some sort of place where I can move to, but with H saying things like he did at the weekend (about justifying the A), it makes me feel like such a cow again - maybe he's right.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sounds like he is lashing out. Yes you must get to a place of forgiving yourself, my Wife hasn't and look where we are.

He's lashing out because he is working through his pain perhaps and of course you are there (probably the only one there).

It rises up like a bubble inside sometimes and it's hard for us BS not to fight out. We've been hurt and it's hard to not react. Try and see his reactions to you not so much about you per se but about the current situation. They are different things. My wife hasn't realised that yet and may never. She constantly goes on about how I can't forgive her, I have but she can't accept that I have some pain to work through.

So sit back and weather it Lisa, if he wanted out he would be gone already imho.

Neil.

Hi Neil

I think and hope you're right about if he wanted to go he would.

The thing is, he hasn't had the angry outburts etc. but his words are still so painful at times. It's not the obvious lashing out, but the quietly spoken and stated with absolute certainty and that I'm completely unable to address anything that is so hurtful. I swear, I am honestly trying very hard to address my behviour, not just the A, but towards him.

The other thing he said to me at the weekend was "You've never been there for me 100%". This again was so hurtful. I pointed out all the things I'd done for him over the years - bailing him out financially, supporting him through a number of hospital visits (one only last year in Germany), helping raise the girls etc. and then, he just says, "Oh well, I mean recently". But the seed is sown - he's already hurt me, and I think "Well, that's what he really means, he's only back tracking now."

I do try and sit back and stay calm, but then H brings something else up and reverts back to the "the sooner I move out the better" scenario.

Not sure about the anti-d's either. In some ways I've coped incredibly well, especially the last few busy weeks and the whole Police thing, but in other ways I feel shattered. I still cry most days, sleep is not good, eating habits all over the place etc. Not sure what to do.....

Thanks Neil for posting. I know how horrible things are for you at the moment. I've posted some words of support over on your thread.

Lisa

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lisa in London:
<strong>I think and hope you're right about if he wanted to go he would.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He would have, take a look elsewhere on the board and you'll see that is what happens sometimes. Also people who aren't in love do it. So take some comfort.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>It's not the obvious lashing out, but the quietly spoken and stated with absolute certainty and that I'm completely unable to address anything that is so hurtful.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course. Let me give you an example, I told my Wife once that she was "subhuman" for having an affair, that totally hurt her. It was an angry deliberately focussed hurtful remark. Yet I was "subhuman" for saying it, and of course I deeply regretted it, but it just came out because I was so angry.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>The other thing he said to me at the weekend was "You've never been there for me 100%". This again was so hurtful.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually it's also an unreasonable remark. You cannot do 100% no-one can. Again it's hurt speaking. It's more like "how can you have done this too me, you should have been there for me only".

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>he just says, "Oh well, I mean recently". But the seed is sown - he's already hurt me, and I think "Well, that's what he really means, he's only back tracking now."</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course. His pain is leading to words that are irrational. I had trouble with this but it stopped due to my wife's condition, but I do feel this is normal.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I do try and sit back and stay calm, but then H brings something else up and reverts back to the "the sooner I move out the better" scenario.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Taking a lot of time doing it though isn't he? Even if he did it's not the end, it could be a calming period for him and maybe you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Not sure about the anti-d's either.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Simple words here: Take Them!

I didn't want to take them, felt I was a failure if I did, thought that I should be able to cope. In the end I did take them, they have helped me stay just that little bit calmer, just that little bit less anxious. But more importantly they have helped me sleep, and them have not affected my work. Leilana convinced me that I should and they have helped a lot.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Not sure what to do.....</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Simple words here: Take Them! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Neil.

I have come by and checked your posts from time to time to see how you are doing and want to remind you again of what JL said. When he said time and patience, he was speaking of the very things you are going through right now.

Lisa, the feelings you are having right now are the feelings that are expected and natural for all that has occured. What your husband is saying and doing is what BS's say and do until they get over the hurt. I believe what JL is saying is that you need to find a way to wait this out, until you no longer have these feelings, and H gets over his feelings. That also usually happens if you can last long enough.

The patience part is where you quit taking what H says at face value, and just let it go. ( harder done than talked about, I realize) This is the way he is going to be for a while, and only time will take away the sting for him, even though you are trying to say things to help him get through it.

I feel for you in this very dificult time, and hope you make it through with your M intact. I really believe you can do this.

SS

Firstly, thank you SS for your words of support. Yup, it's that old "time and patience" thing again! I think to some extent I have taken that more on board, and although I realise that as you and Neil say, he is saying these things because he is hurt, logically I can deal with that, but emotionally, I find it incredibly difficult. Taking things at face value is hard, because my H is a very intelligent man - he rarely says things he doesn't mean and always remembers everything. And of course, what he says feeds into my own low self worth and feelings of guilt that riddle me every day.

I know that my hurt isn't anywhere near his, and I can't say "Oh, I know you're really hurt", because I will never (hopefully in my life) have to feel the pain he and other BS's do. Perhaps I should just remind myself that.

I think what concerns me most is that there is little concrete positive moves - I asked H again if he would go to MC and he refused flat out, he does not think there was anything wrong with the M that needs addressing, he won't look at ENQ to see where we can start to help each other out etc. I suppose this is where I have to give it more time, but will H want to.

You know being honest here, when he says he'll move out, part of me thinks "Oh the relief - no more fights, accusations etc." I know it may sound like WS babble, but even before the A, I liked being by myself and doing my own thing. H knows that and it worries me that in some ways, I've rebelled against being married for a number of years now. I don't want to loose my M, but I don't want to loose me. This probably sounds incredibly selfish, but sometimes, it helps so much to put these things down in words when you actually think about them. I don't mean to be selfish, but just want to be honest about where I am and what I want.

Neil, thanks for your thoughts about anti-d's. I think us Brits are definitely into the "I'm a failure and don't need them because I can cope mould" more than the Yanks. Even some people here still think therapy and counselling is for the stars only! I know I haven't failed, but I wish for decent sleep, fewer crying days and some more oomph to carry on doing the things that help me physically and mentally - like the gym. I do a couple of days and then I fall off again. Before all this happened, I trained hard 5 times a week, including a 30/50 mile cycle, running, spinning, weights etc. I want to get back to that real love of doing it, not just going through the montions. I've also put on weight which doesn't help how I feel about me....

Quote: "Taking a lot of time doing it though isn't he? Even if he did it's not the end, it could be a calming period for him and maybe you."

Yeah, you're right there, and since he first started saying this, he's been to see one flat. He was going after ESD's party etc. etc. I guess with no children involved though, would it be wrong if we had a break a true calming from each other? H sent me a really nice e-mail today. I think he feels bad that I am on the verge of anti-d's and what he has contributed to that - "ugly" people he refers to himself as. I said you and me both. I think he is worried that either one of us is so close to really going over the edge, with neither one of us really protecting each other. Although in the worst cases (him in a Police cell, me on my knees howling), it's only me and him who have been there for each other. I think he wants to find himself again, and feels that is really hard to do around me, because he does get so hurt and angry. What I don't want though is for him to take a flat for 6 months and we drift apart. If we could have a much shorter separation, maybe a couple of months and see each other, date even, could this help, or is this me being selfish again?

Anyway, as seems normal nowadays, I'm whittering on here. Thank you both for your words. It really does help me to think about things and perhaps to articulate some of the difficult things I don't want to.

Thanks again.

Lisa

<small>[ October 07, 2002, 11:23 AM: Message edited by: Lisa in London ]</small>