Taking things at face value is hard, because my H is a very intelligent man - he rarely says things he doesn't mean and always remembers everything. And of course, what he says feeds into my own low self worth and feelings of guilt that riddle me every day.

He thinks he means them and he does feel like this, I think that's one of the things we try to warn about. He will come to realize that he had these feelings and said these things because of the pain he was in. How often in your life have you refrained from speaking your mind to find later that your feelings were the feelings of a moment and you are glad you did not articulate them?

This is what is happening here, except the moments are longer, and you are both saying the things. If you could look back from - say 6 months from now, you would have the same kind of thoughts, being glad you had refrained, or wishing you would have.

I asked H again if he would go to MC and he refused flat out, he does not think there was anything wrong with the M that needs addressing, he won't look at ENQ to see where we can start to help each other out etc. I suppose this is where I have to give it more time, but will H want to.
One of the most successful ways to get a spouse to go when they don't want to is to make the appointment, and tell them you are going because you need help, and ask them to go and HELP YOU. Explain that you need him to tell his feelings to the MC so the MC can better be able to help YOU - make sense? It could go something like this - " H, I am going to MC, because I need help, ( you kow I need help, you have to live with me.) I would like you to go with me to give the MC proper feedback and to answer questions that will help me improve. Will you help me with this?
Then you clue in the MC what is going on so they can involve him as you said he would be involved. If it works, he will soon see the value of it.

You know being honest here, when he says he'll move out, part of me thinks "Oh the relief - no more fights, accusations etc." I know it may sound like WS babble, but even before the A, I liked being by myself and doing my own thing. H knows that and it worries me that in some ways, I've rebelled against being married for a number of years now. I don't want to loose my M, but I don't want to loose me.
I heard a quote once about marriage, and I will paraphrase it - "marriage can be the most exultant ecstasy of which the human mind can conceive." I believe I have found that, and that you can find it also. I can say that it takes a lot of hard work but it sounds good - does it not? You would have to take my statement on faith until you get over the bad feelings and work through the bigger problems.

I don't mean to be selfish, but just want to be honest about where I am and what I want.
One of the main things about time and patience is that where you are and what you want will change as the time goes by. You honestly believe you know right now, and your husband does also, but it will change. I recently drove with my father and his cousin to a funeral some hours away and the cousin remarked ( about his divorce) " I thought I knew what I wanted, and it ( divorce) has turned out to be the biggest mistake of my life"

We don't want you to look back and say that, and having seen this scenario played out over and over, we ask you to let some time go by and see if the feelings will change for both of you.

I know you understand this, but our emotions make it hard to live it from day to day. I hope I have not belabored the point beyond what would help you.

SS

<small>[ October 07, 2002, 02:04 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Still Seeking is spot on Lisa, also bear in mind that you are perhaps expecting improvements daily.

It doesn't work like that. When my wife was in Hospital I was hoping to see improvements every single day, and when a rough day knocked her and us back it felt as though it was back to square 1.

But when I took a step back an looked at progress over say the last fortnight or month then I saw the improvements.

Interesting how you mention you don't want to drift apart from your H, when there's little mention of love in your posts. I think your feelings are deeper than you portray. I think him moving out would be a bad move and should be a last resort. It's more difficult to have trust and repair imho. I am in that situation and it truly is breaking me.

Neil.

Hello SS/Neil

No, you haven't belaboured the point SS - I think sometimes it is me that churns over the same old ground, and like Neil says, looks for daily improvements and movement. SS, I appreciate your stories about M and DV - I know H and I have a long way to go if we can, and it will be a very slow process. Thanks for your thoughts about the MC, but as we are both seeing IC's at the moment, I don't think he'd accept that I would want to see an MC as well (my IC is Relate trained).

Neil, no I don't talk about overwhelming love for my H - frankly the last few months he has done very little for me to feel anything. I think my most common way of expressing things is that I do love and care for him, but obviously not enough, otherwise I wouldn't have become involved in the A in the first place. I have given up telling H I love him, because he says I don't - yup, because if I did I wouldn't have had the A.

You are right too about wanting daily improvements. I suppose what I want either way is to know for sure - yes, we will both try to work it out, or no, we'll give each other space. The limbo land in between is painful to deal with.

On a separate matter, an official looking letter arrived for H today after he left for work. I couldn't see exactly what it was, but through the window bit, saw that it said "Solicitors". I am now worried sick that this is OM solicitors with something else - injunction whatever?!?! Has the upset and stress of the last few weeks just got to me and is this unrealistic? Could it just be from the duty Solicitors who advised him last week? Should I call H at work and open it for him? It's amazing really how much upset a letter can potentially cause......

Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.

Lisa

Well Lisa, the letter could be any number of things as you suggest. You could ring him and say you're worried about it, should you open it?

If he says no then you must respect that, if he says yes then deal with it. There's no benefit in speculating what it might be as thats just FEAR speaking to you.

Neil.

This is what I've become - anxious, worried, over-active imagination etc. etc. I suppose I'm thinking why else would the Duty Solicitor write, it can only be OM's solicitor with more stuff to stir up. H is doing training this morning, so I don't want to worry him either. In some ways it is me that has become more upset about this whole thing - probably because it stirs up the OM thing, and as I said before I don't want him in my life or our lives in any shape form or fashion. I have tired hard not to feel vindictive or act out any of the "plans" I had for OM, but I hope this is not from his solicitors, because it may just be one step too far for me....

Thanks for the thought Neil - I may call him this afternoon. I have to stay calm this morning at least as there is nothing I can do.

Lisa

What happened Lisa?

It was the duty Solicitor confirming what had happened, so I panicked for nothing. But I guess this over-anxiety is part and parcel of the depression and wider issues.

Just feel so miserable all the time, wish I could pick up. This isn't even so much now about me and H, but me being down and hard on myself all the time. The forgiveness thing is pretty hard. I know H and I will need to talk again sometime this week after last Sunday. I feel I have so little to offer him at the moment, because I have no self respect, sense of me, or positive energy for anything. It sort of sweeps over me in a huge wave most days.

Thanks for checking in Neil, hope you're doing OK.

Lisa

I think you'll find that this is exactly what the Anti-D's will help with. That's what they helped me with for sure.

Also regular IC is something that will help. You have to remember that you are early into this.

What you are describing is the kind of feelings I had many many months ago and they took awhile to disappear, and me feel good about myself (only to be hit again but thats a different story).

Remember also that it is a time of almost continual stress and crisis so much rest and relaxation is essential because its all so draining. For your H too.

Neil.

Hi Neil

Thanks for your words. It is sometimes easy to forget the more simple things - yes the stresses and strains of this whole business are immense - I do forget.

H and I had a chat last night. I think he is very concerned for my well being - taking Anti-d's and my general lack of energy and ability to engage with most anything. It was a good chat, although it did veer off slightly into the "A" land, which I don't think we should really be discussing anymore - well not anymore, but I think we should concentrate on us more.

What I found out from H last night was his overwhelming sense of being abandoned by me. This has hurt him perhaps more than anything (and the physical side). H and I both have quite challenging (!) pasts, and what he has said to me is whilst on some levels he can forgive me, the deeper damage he is not sure whether or not he can repair.

I guess this may tie in with Jen Brown's thread about why or why not some BS's can or can't stay with their WS. I think H can accept and understand on some levels, but as I say, the deeper hurt seems to trouble him more. He talked again about moving out, or even whether I would be prepared to go away for a time (I have close friends in the States, and being self employed I could cut loose from work for a month or so).

On top of this though, I now have PC problems,and this morning I woke up with what looks like a small black eye (right in the corner of my right eye). I know I'm probably being paranoid, but I feel like I'm paying now. Had to get to Brixton today too, and all the trains from home were up the creek - huuummm!!

Anyway, daily mantra - onwards and upwards.

Thanks for checking Neil, hope you're OK. I know how tough things are for you.

Lisa

Hey, Lisa!

Everything is pretty much the same around here. No contact, but no firm committment to marriage either. We get along just fine. She just misses the Loser, and thinks he is the one.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> taking Anti-d's and my general lack of energy and ability to engage with most anything. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lisa, taking the Anti-ds will help with your energy and ability to engage with things. Take Them Take Them Take Them Take Them Take Them Take Them Take Them Take Them Take Them

Seriously!!! Don't give me that 'hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way' business!!! I think most of the anti-ds were invented THERE <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> PLEASE PLEASE take them. Your life will go sooo much smoother! I would be divorced and miserable by now if I had not gotten on them.

NSST

p.s. oh yeah, an independent Texas is more than just a thought! It was reality for nearly 10 years!

Lisa, I can relate to his wanting to talk re: "A". I did that. My WS also responded like you, didn't want to talk about it. More importantly though did not understand WHY I needed to talk about it. This caused many problems and much cutting.

I would suggest that you try to weather the discussion, answer his questions and yet be assured that they will in time stop. If it becomes to hard to discuss for you then say "I am drained, this is to hard to discuss any further, give me some time and we can discuss on day X" and then breathe and relax. But go ahead and discuss on Day X. It doesn't have to be bashed out in one session, I found any conversation longer than 1/2 hr tended to disintegrate and get very painful.

He will also need to go over things again and again. But if you understand that this is normal and does stop it will help you.

Hope you have a good weekend and take care of yourself. Best Wishes Neil.

Lisa, I get the feeling that your H is less and less obsessed with the A compared to a few weeks ago, am I right?

<small>[ October 11, 2002, 05:55 AM: Message edited by: TooMuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

Hello Everybody,

In reverse:

Coffeeman - yes you are absolutely right. Things have improved immensely since the first Police incident, when he pretty much stopped most of the really nasty stuff. He has been true to his word and I appreciate that he has done that.

Neil - It's not that I don't or won't talk about it, but I think it is a combination of things. As time moves on, some of the stuff he talks about truly embarrasses me, and sometimes my H has the capacity to talk and talk. I like the idea of trying to break the talks up, but he's not so good at that. Also, I sometimes just don't know how to answer him or what to say, and yes you're right it can be the same thing. Sometimes you need to remember that this is quite natural - of course we all tend to think we're unique!

NSST - I know the anti-d thing - LOL about us Brits eh?!? The tablets I have been prescribed are quite controversial. Neil, by the way there is a Panorama programme on Sunday night about them. I also know someone (closely) who is addicted to them and can't get off them. This does somewhat scare me. I've decided to give them 2 weeks which is when I go back to my Dr. anyway.

I do hope things works out with your W - with time she will forget OM, and let's face it, she's not going anywhere or making any comments about that, so hopefully she'll realise soon where she wants to be.

Last night H went out after work, and came back with the "news" of someone who knows someone with flats...... I just said to him that I thought we hadn't decided anything, but he said he had <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
Well, he's said that before, so perhaps again it won't happen. I hope we will be able to talk some more this weekend.

Thanks everyone - as always the support here is great.

Lisa

Lisa,

I suspect he is looking for some control in his life and a way to gain some self respect. My guess is that IF he does decide to do this it truely won't because he doesn't want to be with you, but because he is having a hard time facing himself. I suspect he feels pretty powerless, pretty humiliated (by his own actions as well as yours), and feeling like a failure (you are not interested in him sexually). These are hard things to address and I would bet that there are periods where he just wants to run and hide, and others where he really wants to stay.

Does this sound familiar??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I think you can understand this. One of the biggest problems in recovery is that everyone WS/BS thinks whatever the other person does is about them and how they are feeling about them. It seems to me in my readings here, that most people are really addressing their own failings and having a hard time doing it.

So have some patience and give it time. Have you ever heard that one before? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

God Bless,

JL

hi lisa,
nothing in particular to add from my side unfortunatly, just wanted to say: good luck.
with regard to the anti-d's my view is a bit different, but that's a personal choice I guess. I havent taken them and wont take them. rather, I would try to cope with it in other ways, like running 30k's or getting pissed! just joking. maybe not.
have a good weekend
N

Hello JL, how are you?

JL: "It seems to me in my readings here, that most people are really addressing their own failings and having a hard time doing it."

As usual, I think you have hit the nail on the head absolutely. I know that's how I feel, and although H says that he feels nothing was wrong with out M he'll then say "It's all my fault".

Although I know it wouldn't be the best thing, if H does decide to move out, I really don't think it would be the end. Sometimes I use the analogy of the wounded animal - perhaps he needs to spend some time quietly healing those wounds. If he wants to do that without me and get himself back -I understand that's what he may need to do.

I realise some of my recent posts have been very down and "whiney", (depression probably) but I do know that in some respects we have come such a long way and I appreciate that. We've stuck through perhaps the very worst bit, and things are changing more positively. Communication is getting a little better, fights are less, and things are much calmer.

Thanks JL, hope you have a good weekend.

Lisa

Dear Lisa,

I don't really think you have sounded "whiney" - again that's your British background being hard on yourself - to me, you have sounded desperate and down - both legitimate ways to feel in your situation. I don't know if you have ever been "depressed" in your life before this particular time, but I have found that it is good to have a personal barometer - I ask myself "Is what I am feeling appropriate for my situation?" If so, then I try to work through my feelings. Yes, I sometimes feel sorry for myself, but then I try to consciously shift my attention away from myself and on to something outside of myself - the garden, calling a friend, going for a swim - anything to shift the mood. What is essential to remember is that no matter how bad you feel, it WILL get better - eventually. And that's the word - eventually - it just takes time.

I have kept up with your thread and notice the conflict within you - perhaps part of the source of your ambivilence towards your H - you seem to equate his EN for you to make him the "center" of your life, with you giving up your independence. This need not be. You sound like a strong, capable woman, and I admire your drive to stay physically fit - especially in this day and age. I can completely sympathize with your feeling that you should not have to give up the sport that you have found works for you. In one of the best articles I read about why people have affairs, the author suggested that the person having the affair feels himself to be a "different person" around the lover - and it is that "different person" that he feels good being that he wants to be all the time - he thinks he can only have this feeling by being with the lover - what the unfaithful partner has to do is to try to bring that person back into his marriage - of course, this is hard - the spontenaeity that was there in the beginning of the love affair is not possible in the beginning of recovery (which is where you are) - but eventually, the spontenaeity can return to your marriage, IF you rebuild the respect and trust you need to have. Once that happens, your H may find that he LIKES the person you have become - when you share with him the things that make you happy - the beautiful WHOLE person that you are, instead of withholding parts of yourself (I could never be like that with you). YOU have to be creative about what you bring to your marriage, and bestow your strong spirit on your husband. I think you do this by admiring him - he will be so wowed by being loved by someone as strong as you - and knowing how capable you are, he will be touched when you show him that you need him, too.

You have been apart a while - maybe he is finding it hard to get to know the woman you have become - he is still getting used to you.
Wanting to emotionally be the center of someone's life is not the same thing as wanting to squash their independence. Perhaps you need to work a little harder at including him.

You said that you realized that admiration was one of his big ENs - once again, perhaps you could find one nice thing about him that you like each day and find a way to let him know that you admire that about him - just try it for two weeks - every day, and see how you both feel. I found that when I did this, I felt a lot better about my H, and he finally even became attractive to me again. I knew I was doing this, he didn't. It was a conscious effort on my part, which helped both of us. If he is getting this need met by you every day, he will find it hard to leave you, and you will feel better about him. After all, there were a lot of good things you saw in him before - couldn't you find some good things about him still? It's worth a try.

LIR

P.S. I have also been on anti-D's - not now - they were a godsend at the time, but I understand your fear about Seroxot. Can't your GP suggest any others? There are others. And 2 weeks is not long enough to give them a chance to work.

Lisa -

you know my opinion about anti-D's. Absolutely check out the Panorama on BBC1 tonight. The abstract on the website goes like this:

<strong>
Seroxat is one of the world's biggest selling and most successful anti-depressants.

But this Panorama investigation discovers the drug may have a darker side - the programme reports that people can get hooked on it, suffering serious withdrawal symptoms when they try to come off it.

For some it can lead to self harm and even suicide. But little warning of these possible side effects accompanies the drug.

</strong>

Nick

Hi Nick

I taped Panorama and have not watched it yet, but will do. Yes, I know someone who is addicted to them. I really felt like you about it, that I could cope and didn't really need to take them etc. but I realised I wasn't moving forward at all - I couldn't even make myself go to the gym or exercise. Whilst on a practical level I was coping (going to work etc.), on an emotional level I felt absolutely wrecked. I will watch the programme, but do have serious doubts. I go back to the Dr next week, so will talk to her about it. I think mainly in the UK it's Prozac or Seroxat. Perhaps I'll just stop taking them. I think really the sleep thing gets to me - if I felt less tired, perhaps I wouldn't cry so much, get so down on myself, etc. etc.

LIR - many thanks for your thoughts. I always appreciate the practical nature of some of your advice - I think this is something I can definitely do. I think you are right about him getting used to me and me used to him. We have both lived pretty independently, and now having to come together and share is a difficult thing to do irrespective of the A. What still worries me is that he is unable to see that I was unhappy and there were issues for me in the M and that he won't go to MC. Even if I used the advice of Ark I think it was, he wouldn't go. I really think those two issues are pretty important.

The weekend was fairly calm, a couple of chats. He still says he's going to move out when the right thing comes along, but that he wants to keep communication lines open. Other than that, not much new here.

Thanks as always to everyone for their thoughts and advice.

Lisa

Hey Lisa, don't give up on the Anti-D's just yet they haven't had time to work.

And yes Panarama can make you feel terrified, but remember alot of people take them. I was a lot like you (a gym freak almost) and still needed them. Nick makes some good points but then the counterpoints are alcohol is a very dangerous road and exercise needs to be in moderation. Your body can be physically exhausted but I found that I still wouldn't switch off mentally and sleep. This is where the Anti-D's helped.

I used both Venaflaxin (sp?) and Lustral. The latter were best for me. As to being addicted? Well I was on a very small dose and have now come off them this past week as I feel I no longer need them, in fact I feel like I could run thru a brick wall and am a sexual tyrannosaur <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

What about approaching the things that were wrong in the M by stating that you both need to have a new M that is better for both of you?

Neil.

<small>[ October 14, 2002, 06:50 AM: Message edited by: Porsche S ]</small>