</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by unsureheart:
<strong>GC -- My heart is filled with happiness when I read your posts now. My only concern is that it's gone back to "normal" so quickly. Are you scheduled to talk to SH again any time soon.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">thank you! Yes, I also have concerns as well, I mentioned counseling tonight, and H said the he is "counseled out" from his IC. We have a marriage seminar coming up at church which is led by a Christian marriage counselor who is familiar with the Harley principles. I am hoping we can go to that, its just a matter of me not pushing too quickly.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by unsureheart:
<strong>
(ok Going Crazy tell me please how do you get accumstomed to these</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm still working on that myself!! I feel a little uncomfortable at first then get a little used to them as the day goes on, I know what you mean about thinking your butt will be exposed!!! it does feel funny!! what I really like about them, especially with tighter pants, is no panty lines!!! Sometimes I always felt like I was pulling underwear out of my butt anyway, might as well leave it there!!! (btw, sorry for men who are reading this, Carefree makes a thong panty liner)

GC -- You really make me laugh/I think we have the same sense of humor. My assistant at work can't believe I didn't already wear thongs. She said "you're not THAT old".

I know what your WH means by worn out by IC. I feel the same way sometimes when I get back from several appointments. As long as he is willing to discuss it, keep it an option, and eventually go that is a good sign. Maybe he will view phone counseling as less draining?

Hey unsureheart,

I just wanted to check in with you and your Plan B as it has been awhile.

I think you're doing great. You're absolutely right, the emotions your feeling (conflicted) is normal.

I think over time the feeling of loss and love for your WH will fade gradually and your desire to be independent and be appreciated will grow. It is all part of the healing process.

As for the undies, you gals are hilarious. My vote is that they are an aquired comfortableness kinda thing, but then again I'm biased because I'm male and just want to encourage all women to wear 'em. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

take care.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by unsureheart:
<strong>GC -- You really make me laugh/I think we have the same sense of humor. My assistant at work can't believe I didn't already wear thongs. She said "you're not THAT old". </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">hee, hee!! You have to make sure you drape them over your drying rack!! You are hilarious, what did you do, ask people at work if they could see your butt??? I have a pair of creme linen pants that I don't wear because you could see my underwear through them, but started wearing a thong with them, now I'm self conscious about people seeing my butt!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by unsureheart:
<strong>I know what your WH means by worn out by IC. I feel the same way sometimes when I get back from several appointments. As long as he is willing to discuss it, keep it an option, and eventually go that is a good sign. Maybe he will view phone counseling as less draining?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I did ask about Steve, he's worn out by all counselors!

How are you going USH, how did that meeting go?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> asking why the F#$K don't you do something about this inappropriate behavior?!?!? I know they know about it.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because so many people meet and get married through the workplace, offices generally take the attitude that the employee's private lives are non of their business, unless it really affects the work.

Less than a full month of plan B and I had a bit of a breakdown. The conference was very difficult as everyone kept asking me how WH was? Where he was, why wasn't he here, etc? Then, I discovered more people know about what's going on with the A, etc. I also saw WH's boss who just said "hello" and then quickly went away from me, which I suppose is his only way of facing me at this point.

I was ok until yesterday when my mom called to tell me that my father is having his fifth artery/heart surgery in the span of a year this friday. These things are always scary and my mom sounded very undone and feel so far away. I broke down and cried hard in my office yesterday. Then, taking page from JRs post and Tough Love by Dobson, I sent my WH the following letter via email. Probably not completely plan B, but I felt very compelled to let him know what I was thinking. I had sent the most basic/brief plan B letter and I know it stunned WH. I am so tired.

WH &#8211;

I have been haunted the last week by the thought that my last message to you was too abrupt and that it wasn&#8217;t the best way to convey my thoughts about parting.

It strikes me now that a person loses all perspective when they are so close to a problem. Some of it is simply shock and pain. It becomes difficult to see the issues clearly and that has definitely been the case for me these past months and I now see things in a different light.

It is incredible how foolish I was and the state of denial I was in for so long. Since last summer (and probably longer) I knew something was very wrong, but constantly suppressed my doubts and my consciousness out of love and probably not wanting to see the truth. I cannot believe now how irrationally I acted and how distorted my reality was at that time. I guess I just loved you so much that I first reacted in anger and blame. Then, I just could not accept the fact that you did not love me. For the past nine months I thankfully came to a different place that allowed me to support you and be your friend again because I still had hope even in the face of cruelty and disrespect.

I&#8217;ve been through some very tough moments since I realized that you were not going to end your relationship with OW and that you appear not to place enough value on our relationship to do what I think is necessary to try and take that leap of faith.

My love for you is so profound that I just couldn&#8217;t face the possibility of life without you. Nevertheless, I realize now that my continued attempts to stay connected and show you love only accomplished keeping you in a relationship with me against your will. It is obvious to me now that simply cannot be done. As I reflect on our courtship and early years together, I am reminded that you pursued me and asked me to be your wife of your own free will. Now, it appears to me that you want out of the relationship and, obviously, I have to let you go. You are free to make that choice and I will accept and respect your wishes.

I don&#8217;t know how to appropriately convey to you the level of acceptance I have reached. I do not want a divorce, but I also recognize that this is not about my choice alone.

I really want you to understand why I had to abruptly cut off contact with you. I am not sure I can fully describe all I felt in those moments in the early morning hours. Suffice it to say I reached my darkest hour and I knew I had to protect myself from further pain. It was simply too hard for me to share my day, my thoughts, my hopes, my frustrations and the pieces of my life knowing that you had re-sought your other relationship.

It has been difficult to not be able to express my care and love in a time when I know you are struggling. (My boss/third party in our plan B)let me know about a week later about your phone conversation with WH boss (not the content, just that it was going to occur/had probably occurred). I need to be honest with you and tell you that after I first found out that you had not gone camping and had spent the weekend with OW while I worried about your safety and imagined you in the snow that I wrote a letter to WH boss. I did not send it.

I knew if I picked up the phone and called that it was highly likely I would re-engage in a pattern that brought me tremendous pain. I do care for you and love you, and perhaps, I have finally come to that place of acceptance that my life with you is out of my hands and that I need to respect your wishes. I still have hope that time will help you shed light on what you want and need in your life, but I am not clinging to that hope as I once was.

I won&#8217;t pretend this is easy because that is the furthest truth from reality. But, I will ultimately be fine and hopefully thrive in another relationship and life. I hope you never have to live this again. I hope I never have to live this again. I hope the acute pain of these past two years will make sense and diminish for both of us some day.

I have many hopes and memories that will never die. I have no more anger or resentfulness, which I suppose is progress. I truly wish you peace and happiness. It sounds trite, but is what I feel.

I don&#8217;t know when or if I will be able to talk to you. Part of me finding my own peace is to remove myself. I do know that as long as OW is in your life, I cannot be your friend.

USH,

I have read your threads, but don't know that I have ever posted to you before.

What I have to say now is, that is a beautiful letter you wrote to your H. I also feel that you are a shining example of MB at it's finest. Reason being is that you have had the courage, to see this through and work beyond the pain of your situation.

It is my belief that you have learned from this experience and that you're a better person as a result of your efforts. It makes me smile because I see that regardless of the outcome of your marriage; your newly acquired knowledge will bless you with the peace and grace that will find you in a relationship you deserve.

Will your WH be that partner in your relationship? Time will tell. If not, there will be someone more deserving of your love. Of that I am certain. You are an inspiration. Blessings CSue

Thank you CSue. Somedays I don't feel like I am a shining example of anything, but I do feel as if I put my heart and soul into trying to show my WH love, care, and respect. I don't know what the future holds, but I have reached the point where I know I will be ok without him and that I will never be ok with him if he doesn't get some help.

unsure...

I don'thave a lot to say but I read your letter to your H and had to respond...

I am so sorry for the pain you feel and I know how hard it was for you to write that letter...no doubt as you re-read it it brought tears to your eyes.

I too may have a similar letter to write to my WW...not that she has resumed her A...I am quite certain she hasn't...but she appears to be headed down some path in life that will not include me. It makes me very sad to acknowledge that, but it is also what you have acknowledged in your letter and I can soooo feel the pain there...becuase it is my pain too.

I hope you are doing OK...you are very strong and have made it thru this with a great deal of dignity...that's not always easy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

To paraphrase a line you have written to me: "Your husband must be nuts!"

Take care...

E

Elad -- I know you feel the same pain and I am so sorry that your WW is taking a life path that seems to not include you. Thank you for your kind words.

Yes, I did cry as I wrote that letter and again as I re-typed it into the computer to send. But, today, I know (or am at least fairly certain) I did the right thing. He did not respond and I will be very surprised if he does. He is leaning on OW for support now and there is nothing I can do about that.

I am incredibly sad, but have found some peace in not having contact right now. I am picking up some information from a friend this afternoon that just went through a divorce just to find out what the process, costs, timing, and particulars are of this in my state. I am not ready to file, but am at a point where I need to know what might happen next.

I don't know whether you've got a recent post about your situation, but will look for it.

As a treat to myself and good friend from college that is going through breast cancer, several women that I love dearly and I are going to Las Vegas next weekend. Not that any of us are gamblers, but we plan to sleep late, eat good food (I understand there are good restaurants there), have spa treatments, go to a cirque du soleil show, and just have fun. It's where this friend wants to go to be with us so we have all agreed and have rented three suites.

Hey---I love Las Vegas...you'll have a great time even if you don't put a dime in a slot machine...

Great dining and shows and world-class shopping (yeah, there's that shopping thing again). Great people watching, too.

I am sorry about your friend but it is nice you are doing something for her and for yourself, too.

As for my update...nothing much is new...my WW has been out of town all week at some training... she is back this weekend and I suppose I wouldn't be surprised if she wants to talk about a D at that point. I have no solid reason to suspect that but just a gut feeling I guess.

Just like you I don't want a D. I have not done the background you have begun, but then I have gone thru one divorce and have that experience to rely on... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Not good! Not fun!!

Be good to yourself and enjoy your friends and your time in Las Vegas...

E

Elad -- Any good dining tips for LV? Wanna come be a shopping consultant? I can guarantee the full shopping attention of 7 good looking women ranging in age from 34-40.

I didn't realize you'd been through a D before. I'm pretty scared to even pick up and read the materials.

unsure...well, that's quite an offer and with a little more notice...LOL... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Dining in Las Vegas...WOW...where to start....any of the restaurants downstairs at the Venetian are great...I have dined at Star Canyon and Valentino's...Also upstairs @ the Venetian is WB Stage 16, where you can eat in movie-set like settings...(Casblanca, Oceans 11, Batman...kinda cool and interesting food.) There's a great Italian place at Caeser's forum shops (can't recall the name)...and of course Spago is there too.

For people watching while dining a good spot, if the weather is nice, is outside at the French restaurant at Paris. Good sandwiches can be had at the Deli at NYNY...Lots of great places to eat...the problem is making the choice...

Yes, I have been divorced and 'shudder'(I have admitted it here before) I was the WS in my first marriage....

From that perspective I can tell you that this whole deal is painful for the WS, too, but having been on both sides of the fence there is no pain like being the BS...to say I have learned alot would be an understatement...It's supposed to make me stronger I guess, but there are times I really wonder...

It's funny (well not really funny ha-ha, but funny peculiar) but my WW would always say she could never understand why my XW let me go...but the truth of it is I left...Was that a mistake? A question I ask myself a lot these days, but what is done is done...(for the record I don't think it was a mistake but it sure was painful for me and for my XW---something she really didn't deserve)

In some ways I feel a lot like I am just getting back what I have given...you know, what goes around comes around...that's really hard to deal with a lot of the time...

I still try to do the best I can and the biggest thing I have learned--first from being a WS is that I would never ever inflict that type of pain on me or any other person again...

From being a BS I have learned--well the same lesson really. That there is nothing worth inflicting this type of pain on someone else and on yourself...

It is a lesson I have learned the very hard way...

Sorry to go on...

Like I said have a great time in Las Vegas...you deserve it.

E

Elad -- Thank you for the dining suggestions. I will check those out. We don't go until next week (Nov. 8th) so I'm hoping I can still get reservations at some good places.

Wow, I didn't realize you had been the WS in your first M. But, I do think that what Harley and some others say is right, we are all at risk for an A when our needs aren't being met and there is opportunity. It's interesting that you say that the pain of the WS isn't as devastating as that of the BS. I know my WH is in pain, but have also always thought that there is no way he knows how this feels.

My WH emailed me this morning (even though we are in no contact) to tell me that he had heard my dad was having surgery today, that he was thinking about my family, and to let him know if there was anything he could do. It is so hard not to respond with everything I want to tell him, such as how difficult it is being here with my dad across the country, etc. I responded with a brief note saying thank you for your kind words about my dad.

It all seems so surreal right now.

It snowed again last night and now there are 18 inches of snow on the ground. It's beautiful, but boy do I miss the WH to help shovel the walks and all the other things he took care of when we had this kind of storm. Big branches fell off of the silver maple in front of the house and I had to get a neighbor to help me drag them out of the street this morning.

After shoveling my walk and the elderly ladies' walk next door and hauling branches, I came back inside and had a bath and made myself a homemade waffle (don't normally make a real breakfast during the week, but I knew if I was going to walk to work I needed something more than a banana).

Hi unsure---

You said: I know my WH is in pain, but have also always thought that there is no way he knows how this feels.

Trust me, he does not know how this feels...but that doesn't mean he isn't in pain. It's just different and it is somehow less intense because of the other part of his life right now.

But the BS...due to the rejection, the blow to self-esteem, the loss they feel and the helplessness because the decisions regarding the relationship have been taken away from them and I could go oe but you get the idea..anyway, the BS feels a more acute pain I think and, in nearly all cases, the BS doesn't have an intimate partner any more to confide in and to share their feelings with...and friends aren't the same. Yes, they can be helpful but they cannot replace your partner/spouse/best friend that has now seemingly turned their back on you. Does all that make sense?

I am sorry, I did not realize your father is having surgery and you are living away...I am sure that is difficult for you.

When my Dad died in May, my WW was there for me at the time...but we weren't then in plan B...aren't now either but closer to it than then. But you know what???? She was there during his hospitilization and the funeral etc but a few days of that and it was back to the full blown sepration for her and her little world.

It was later...after the funeral etc that I really needed someone and of course she wasn't there... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

oops sorry to vent...

I mean it's nice that your H says you are in his thoughts and all but that doesn't give you a shoulder to lean on...but I think they think that they have done something really nice... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Sorry, you have no snow shovelling help...I would lend you my snowblower, but I am pretty sure I am going to need it soon... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I know what you mean about missing their help. I have learned how to wrap gifts, iron pleated pants, and a bunch of other stuff that my WW was much better at....

Like I said before...I guess I have learned a lot...it's a tough way to learn, though.

E

Hi USH, I hope your dad does well with the surgery. It must be very difficult for you right now.

Your talk of Las Vegas brought back memories. We stayed a few days there on our way back from Europe. It was just before our 10th Anniversary. We stayed in the Luxor (the big pyramid). I loved Las Vegas, but it was really hot! Even hotter than I've been in in Oz!

The main thing I remember is the Fountain at Bellagios, that was great. And that funny volcano thing... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

You read my mind (on my thread) about the spa thing. I haven't got much on this weekend and that was my plan exactly. Stay at home and give myself the full deal - facial, body scrub, spa (with port of course!!), hair treatment. No doubt the dog will be in there somewhere (scheduled in my time, not in the spa!!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

mmm...homemade waffles. sounds good to me. I'm lucky if I drink a bottle of water for breakfast. Bananas sound good though, I'll have to look into that. That's a fruit right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I'm not much of a gambler but I heard Vegas is a lot of fun, free drinks, all you can eat buffets, shows, shows, and more shows. I didn't know about the shopping though. Brings new meaning for me on the las vegas, lost wages thingy. Have fun!

As I mentioned on my thread, my thoughts go out to you regarding your dad.

Also please let us know about your meeting with the attorney.

I've thought for a long while about writing a Plan B type letter (I did like the new letter you posted here too) to my WW. I'm guessing though that my WW will be like Elad. She will divorce me, feels bad for the amount of pain I'm in, (though she doesn't know how much it is), and someday she will NOT be with OM, but we'll be divorced and that will be that. Sad really.

I guess though, I have to keep in mind what you said: It is not over till it's over.

Have fun in Vegas. You deserve it.

Elad -- I think you are right about the WS stepping in and trying to provide kind words and comfort, but more so that they can feel good than as any kind of indication that they really care for us.

What do you think it will take for you to know that it's time to give up with WW? In your first marriage when you had an A, were you trying to exit the relationship? Did your marriage end because of the A? Are you still in touch with your first wife? Do you have any regrets? Sorry for all of the questions, I just get this sense I'm headed toward a divorce and frankly cannot imagine life without my WH in it in some capacity.

Seahorse [-- How was the spa weekend? I didn't have any port, but plenty of chardonnay this weekend. I had to stay busy because I felt like I was losing my mind/started crying in a home repair store, so I made two pies, pumpkin soup, and cleaned out my closets. I am not normally little susy homemaker, but I didn't want to be with people and I couldn't sit still. I wish I had a dog.

aanast -- Did your WW actually file for D? I couldn't tell from your other post on planA/plan B? Thank you for your thoughts. I will keep reminding myself the words I told you. It ain't over til it's over. Some days that is very hard to see.

Update:

Thank you all for the kind words for my father and his surgery. My father is fine. His surgery went well and he should be released from intensive care today.

I ended Friday thinking that there might still be hope. I believed that he really meant what he said in his email about my father and his heart and thoughts being with me. I suppose he did mean that as he does like my father, but I think I read too much into the email (read on for the events of the weekend).

WH's sister called me on Saturday as I was wrapping a birthday gift to send my sister. She asked "Have you talked to WH? Has he asked for a divorce?" I responded no, he had not ever directly asked me for a divorce, but had said something along the lines of "I can only guess that maybe getting a divorce is the best course of action" back in August. He mentioned something else after d-day #2 along those same lines, but has never said "I want a divorce".

His sister then told me that WH's father had called her that morning and told her that WH was definitely proceeding with a divorce and that he had asked dad for the name of a good attorney.

I was absolutely floored. WH's sister told me that she was livid with WH and that he was telling his parents unflattering things about me, not mentioning that he was in an ongoing A or that he'd had an A, etc. etc. She also said that she had left WH a message telling him that he had no integrity and that he needed to tell his parents the truth.

I asked her whether she would mind my calling WH and telling him that she had called. She said fine with her and that I needed to stop worrying about him and start worrying about myself.

I waited two or three hours and then left him a very simple and calm voice mail message. "I was very taken aback to get a phone call from your sister this morning telling me that you had sought advice from your father about a good divorce attorney. I am not angry, but would like to talk to you as this was the first indication I had that you were divorcing me and I don't want this to be acrimonious in any way."

WH has not called back. WH's sister called me again yesterday to say that he had left her a message, but that she had not spoken to him. I told her I did not want to put her in the middle of this and that I was looking for her to try to get him to talk to me/that needed to come from him.

I am sure WH is really angry. He gets angry whenever he feels that he's being "ganged up on". I don't think anybody is trying to gang up on him, but his perspective has been very skewed during this A.

I am in plan B (although I did call him after this last bit of news) and I don't think I'll call again. I don't know if he'll call me at all. I'm sure he's feeling pretty crummy because he does value his sister's opinion and I think she made it clear that he doesn't tell his parents the truth then she will. WH reveres his father and his father can be a very harsh judge. I do think though that his parents will not be happy, but forgive him.

I keep trying to remind myself to pay attention only to actions not words. It was hard to hear something that sounded so definitive, albeit second-hand.

I suppose the right approach is just to lay low and wait. I am so thankful that I have a girls trip planned for this weekend.

unsure---

Well here are my answers to your questions...it's not a problem, I have answered similar questions here before.

I probably should have been a bit more specific in my last post.

What do you think it will take for you to know that it's time to give up with WW?

This is a good one. I really don't know, I just have a feeling I will know when it happens (if it happens). I think maybe just getting so worn down by all of this might have that efffect but I really don't know.

In your first marriage when you had an A, were you trying to exit the relationship? Did your marriage end because of the A?

I don't think I was looking for an exit affair. Athough that is what it turned out to be. I was unhappy at home but really didn't know how unhappy I guess 'til the A. I probably never really gave my XW an honest chance to fix things...maybe I should have, I don't know. Yes, my marriage definitely ended with the A. The A was with my current WW. We have been married now for more than 10 years. My first marriage ended after 19. My WW and I met at work and one thing led to another etc...

Are you still in touch with your first wife?

We live a couple of miles apart. She has re-married and by all accounts appears to be happy, but, no we do not keep in contact. We see each other occasionally but do not interact at all. We have some of the same friends and so that is a bit difficult for them, but they have been good about it and, quite frankly, most of them have ended up being closer friends to me than her. That includes her best girl friend from the time of the divorce, who is now one of my closest friends and doesn't interact with my XW hardly at all. Go figure...

Do you have any regrets?

Yes. I don't think you can go thru something like this without any regrets. I do not regret that I did what I did, but I could have handled it better and wish I had.

If other questions occur, feel free to ask. I am neither ashamed nor proud of what I have done. As I said, I learned a lot. I realize that I inflicted great pain on someone I cared about a very much. I have also had someone hurt me more than I could ever imagine being hurt. I am stronger because of all of it and I think a better person--though that's probably not for me to decide.

I do know that I understand what my WW is/has been going thru and that has probably led me to be able to hang on as long as I have.

Unfortunately, this has gone beyond an A and turned into a real difficult MLC for her and one that she is still having a hard time resolving for herself and for us.

I am glad to hear your father's surgery went well.

I am sorry to hear about your WH and his most recent divorce moves. I do hope that if my WW decides that is what she wants to do that I would be the first person she would tell--in person.

Keep being good to yoursef. That really is the only thing you can do...

Take care,

E