Thank you so much Lor, Ute,Zorweb, orchid and mere for ansering my post "OW coming in 2 weeks".

I just read going_crazy's post called "Perfect Plan A/from the bible. I am now more confused than ever. In the post , it says "the one who loves us is willing to be a doormat if necessary, to let his love one walk all over him without retaliation, self-pity, or sarcastic retorts". Its on Page 2,3 or 4 of general questions.

Anyway, an update of my situation (havent been here in week). OW is supposed to be coming sometime in this month, havent talked about it to WH, so i dont know when she is coming, but i think i need to know. Last thursday he told me he wasnt sure himself when she was coming or for that matter how long she was staying.

I wrote WH a letter which basically was probably a major LB. It it mostly was me trying to convince him that he should end contact with her and rejoin his family and marriage. (i just cant get manage to do this concepts correctly, i keep screwing up). He said no deal to the whole thing. Never talked anymore about it, since he was out the door to work. He basically handed me back the letter and shook his head no. So i guess that is a no-deal to the whole thing. So now i dont know what my next step is. Last week when i found out she was coming, i said see her , if you must, but stay here with us, you dont need to leave. (i went through the same thing in July for 3 weeks ). I said to him i managed to survive in July through it, i can do it again. He has said now 2 times he should leave, cause its not right to be here and be seeing her at the same time.

I have only been plan aing just over 8 weeks. It hasnt been a great plan a, cause i have been R talking too much, other than that i have been meeting his EN's. Harleys say in the book, Plan B is completly no contact with WH what so ever. So how do you do Plan A? Do you think 8 weeks of plan aing is not a very long time. I think i have made some impact, but i still need to further it alot more. Under these circumstances though ,her coming here and them voice chatting every day on computer, i dont know how much more i can take. I am so scared to talk with him, i am so unsure if i am LBing or not.

I guess i am so scared that if i let him go, he will never come back, but i guess everyone here has that same fear. Does anyone here feel like your train of thought is changing from one day to the next. One day i am gonna do this and then the next no, i better do this. Urgggg, its so frustrating and then its i dont know what i should do. Sorry, i am just rambling here.

If i do decide to let him go, this is what i want to say, please tell me what you think, and if it is LB'ing.

WH ---- I know I told you that i would be alright in you staying here while you see her. I have thought it over and I realize I cannot. It would be too painful for me knowing you are sleeping with her and coming home to us. I love you very much and will always love you.

I think you have noticed the changes within myself that i am making. I am sorry for the mistakes i made in our marriage that made you turn to someone else. I welcome the opportunity to make things right between us.

Your wife

Anyway, i think my first step is find out when she is coming, cause i will do this during the time she is here, i think that would be best.
anyway, got to go, i think he just pulled in

A/C0810

A/Co810,
I know what she was telling u about what the bible says. We are supposed to forgive outhers, but..... we are not to be a DOORMAT!!!!! What that means is as i said we are to forgive our emeny but not keep taking the abuse. A person can forgive in there heart, and then just go on in there life. I do not think we are supposed to stay and suffer, just tell the person u have forigen them. They as well are supposed to forgive u and show respect to u to as well I a'm sorry u are in so much pain! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Hope this eases your mind some. If u want me to i will reply with some verses on that, let me know.

A/C,
I know how you feel. Confusion is the byword of the BS. No, I don't think you have to let him walk all over you. I had a lot of trouble with the Plan A concept, ORCHID and LOR and others helped straighten me out. I often also think of GOD. He loves us unconditionally. BUT, does he just let us do whatever we please with no consequence NO. He has rules, guidelines. I thought plan A was about my H. Making him HAPPY. It is but it isn't. At first I tried everything to make him HAPPY It didn't work. I CAN'T MAKE him ANYTHING. I can only work on ME. If he sees the changes, takes notice, good. If not I can't change that. But, A/C, guess what? I let go. I have worked on me. I know I am worthy of a MAN who loves ME, I DESERVE a MAN who will treat me with RESPECT. If H can become that man again I will be happy, if not, that is his LOSS. You will feel the same way soon. BELIEVE ME. Plan A for you. Plan A MIGHT bring your H back but more importantly you will become strong and better. I realized one of the reasons my H probably left is because I WAS a doormat. He lost respect for me. It made him feel he could do this. I gave my power to him. I let him be the end all be all of my life. That is ONE of my changes, it has nothing to do with him. In fact most of my Plan A has nothing to do with him.
A/C I hope this helps, some of it is hard to explain. I don't even know if it is good advice but it is working for me. I just want you to know you can get better. I have. I am not the MOUSEY, "WHATEVER YOU SAY HONEY" girl I was 9 months ago. And it feels GREAT!!!
Good luck to you and keep in touch.

Sharon

I know you hate to hear this, but everytime I counsel with Steve H, he always tells me, "You will feel like a doormat, and this is completely normal".

so one of the MB gods says it too!!

whatever you do, do not send that letter, NEVER tell the WS that they have surely seen changes in you, remember actions speak louder than words, even if he has seen changes, he won't tell you until you have proven them for quite a while.

Also remember, any LBing can quickly cancel those changes out, when in doubt on what to say, say nothing at all.

A/C0810,

I hope you are still around today. Please let us know if you are. I read your post at work today, really wanted to respond but couldn’t. I’m worried about you.

Don’t feel badly if you cannot do a perfect plan A. Most people cannot plan A for more then two weeks with an ongoing affair. That you have lasted this long is admirable. You are a living, breathing human with feelings. What your husband is doing to you cruel. You know, when a person hides and affair it’s bad enough. But
when they shove it down the BS’s throat day after day that’s another thing.

I know that in my case I would not let him back in if he went to see her. There is a fine line between Plan A’ing and letting yourself be abused. One thing that is very dangerous here is that none of us have the experience that the Harley’s have. So we are just a bunch a people who can really only tell you what we have experienced and learned. Harley know the why they would advise one person to continue Plan A’ing and yet tell another under almost exactly the same circumstances not to. Your mental and physical health are at stake here.

Yes a person will feel like a doormat in plan A. But when is it simply doormat syndrome and just plain emotional abuse. IMHO, you situation has crossed over to emotional abuse.

Plan A has one purpose…. To negotiate the end of the affair, no contact and the start of marital recovery. Yes, I know, the BS can use that time to better themselves. But Plan A is a negotiation tool. If you don’t believe me reread the material on this web site about Plan A. At some point, a long Plan A becomes a lifestyle that the WS likes… they can have their cake and eat it too. The BS must we weary of crossing over that line.

In Plan A heavy relationship talks are to be avoided. However, it is important that the BS tell the WS very clearly, with no love busters, that the WS’s contact with the OP hurts them. And it should be done with every know contact.

IMHO you should write your husband a letter telling him how you feel and what your intentions are. That is not relationship talk, that is telling him your feelings and exercising radical honesty. Radical honesty is essential in Plan A as it is at any time.

Here is a thread where cerri discusses Plan A… she is very knowledgeable in MB concepts. Just look for her posts in this thread. There is a lot of arguing going on in the thread but there is also a lot of good advice. click here

I know you hate to hear this, but every time I counsel with Steve H, he always tells me, "You will feel like a doormat, and this is completely normal".

so one of the MB gods says it too!!

whatever you do, do not send that letter, NEVER tell the WS that they have surely seen changes in you, remember actions speak louder than words, even if he has seen changes, he won't tell you until you have proven them for quite a while.

Also remember, any LBing can quickly cancel those changes out, when in doubt on what to say, say nothing at all.

A/C,

Doormat?!?!? What kind of love is that? How long can one be a doornat?

Yes the BS will feel like one. Why? Because the WS is NOT loving the BS and family.

Now go ask the WS how long they would allow the OP, BS or anyone to treat them like a doormat.

IMHO, Steve says it will happen but it is NOT an act of love. Let's not confuse ourselves here people. Doormat concept is not love. It is demeaning and disrespectful.

Who else are we willing to accept this type of behavior from? Our children, parents, siblings, neighbors, workmates, boss, clients, etc.? Nope one of the above. Yet it does happen but it will continue only if WE allow it to continue.

A/C, I have said it before, do you really want the WS as he is or as he was or should be? Can you really live with his continued disrespect?

For me, even though the WS moved out, he was the one that wanted to come back home. I got called within the first week.

Don't be afraid for him to move out. He should be afraid you will find it such a relief that you may think twice before letting him back.

Don't settle for scraps of stones when you deserve diamonds.

L.

A/C, I think your H has gone past treating you like a doormat straight to inflicting the cruelist of emotional abuse. If he were mine he would probably be buried in the desert or people would at least be calling me ms. Bobbit by now. All kidding aside, he is not at this time treating you with even a modicum of repect or allowing you ANY human didnity.
I was shocked by your last post and have thought about you alot. I wonder how you can hold onto any love for him if you allow him to treat you as he is expecting you to do. I know I couldn't have allowed my H to go to OW knowingly and then come home to me each night. Your not his mother to cook his meals, care for his children, wash his clothes while he eats and runs off to spend family time and money playing fast and loose with some other woman. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> Marriage, to me, means you are not allowed and would not expect to be allowed to DATE. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
I will send up my prayers for you to remain strong and pray God will show you the way to hold onto your self respect and your love at the same time. Take Care!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hi A/C...

Zorweb hunted me down and asked if I would stop in here to see if I had anything to offer that you might find helpful. I hope you don't mind if I intrude for a bit.

Let me tell you just a little about me. I was the WS in my first marriage, and the BS in this one. I've been on both sides of the issue, and seen the devastation up close and personal. From either viewpoint, it's horrible.

I've been studying MB intensively for the last 5 years. I first came across it in 1996, when Give and Take was first published. I am a marriage and relationship coach, and I find that I am dealing more and more exclusively with infidelity. Currently, I'm part of the first class that the Harleys are certifying as MB coaches.

I read through your previous thread and this one, but I'm sure there are parts of your hx that I didn't get, so correct me if I miss something.

It seems that he has been seeing this woman for a while? And that you knew as far back as July, maybe sooner, but that you just started Plan A 2 months ago.

What Harley books do you have? I think you said you have Surviving an Affair? That would be a good place to start. Read it, and then go back and read it again. Read the Q/A letters here at this site. They give valuable info too, that you may not find in the book.

If you can, tune into the Harleys' radio show Mondays and Thursdays at 1pm CT. You can listen to it livestream online. Just click the radio link above and follow the directions. If your not tech savvy, don't worry. I figured it out, and I can crash any electronic equipment simply by being in the same room!

So, let's talk a little about Plan A and Plan B.

Plan A is a strategy to separate the spouse from the lover. (Or perhaps to pull a spouse out of deep withdrawal, but that's not your issue right now.) Nothing more, nothing less. Plan A will not save or restore your marriage. It is simply a tool to show your spouse that you recognize the contribution you've made to the deterioration of your M, and that you are willing, able, and determined to change those things.

How does it work? Well, first you need to eliminate LBers. No demands, no disrespect, no losing your temper, no dishonesty, and no doing things that annoy or offend your spouse. (annoying behavior does have a qualifier when there is an A, and we will talk about that too.)

And if that isn't enough, Plan A is also about meeting needs. But only as you feel you can. If you can make love with your H and not go away angry and resentful... go for it!! But if not, then don't do it. It will backfire eventually.

In short, Plan A is about being pleasant, courteous, thoughtful, respectful. Most women cannot do Plan A as long as men. Some cannot even do it for a day, the pain of knowing their H is with OW is too great.

Plan A is not about being perfect, being a doormat, or being a perfect doormat! And it can be done in a letter if that is all you can muster. Plan A should have a deadline, it's not an indefinite lifestyle choice.

Plan B is a strategy to protect you, the BS from further pain caused by the cruelty of one's spouse having an affair. It is not punishment, and it's not a wake up call to the WS. The hoped for secondary effect is that the WS will discover that the OP cannot meet all the EN's and will recall the good Plan A work you did.

Plan B is risky. At first it will certainly push the WS into the arms of the lover. But almost all affairs die a natural death. And that is hastened by being exposed to the light of day. Affairs exist and thrive only in secret and in fantasy. Once the harsh realities of life... kids, schedules, finances, laundry (!!) intrude, they lose their appeal.

Soon the arguments set in, withdrawals to the LBnk are made and the A comes to an end.

If you have been doing Plan A for 8 weeks, and he is seeing changes... here's what I would suggest.

First, be honest with yourself about your level of energy to go on. Are you LBing more? Are you sleeping ok? How is your appetite? Are you losing your ability to concentrate? These are things that you need to take into account. Plan A is not sustainable indefinitely, and the more your LBnk drains, the harder it will be to continue.

I would say, plan on another 2-3 weeks. Be pleasant. But be honest. Tell him that you are hurt beyond anything you've ever experienced EVERY TIME he sees or speaks to this woman. Don't tell him you can get by.... tell him he is offending you grievously and that you are in pain.

At the end of that time, I would say go to Plan B.

The 2 biggest mistakes I see over and over again are not going to Plan B in time, and not insisiting on the conditions for recovery. NO ONE wants to do Plan B. It goes against every instinct we have. But MB is about going against instincts. Harley says it over and over again on every topic he covers. Doing what our instincts tell us to do only gets us into trouble.

A Plan B letter should be short and to the point. It must include these

1. I love you

2. I married you for life. I want to stay married to you.

3. This thing you are doing is too painful for me to bear; it is destroying the love I have for you.

4. As long as you have contact with this person, I cannot see or speak to you.

5. When this affair ends, I would love to discuss reconciliation and recovery with you.

6. Until then I ask that you not contact me. All issues relating to children/finances/etc should go through____ who is acting as intermediary.

Now, in the interim, there are things you can do. Confront the OW. Tell her that you love your H and that you want your marriage to survive. Tell her that she is contributing to the destruction of your home and your family.

Tell your children. Yes... tell them. They already know, so give them the gift of honesty.

Tell your parents and his. Tell your religious leader. Ask for their support in ending the A and saving your marriage.

Tell your friends and loved ones.

Yes, he will be angry. And this is the place where following the Policy of Joing Agreement does not apply. The marriage has already been breached. Telling is a way of stopping the bleeding so to speak. A way to end the A, to pick of the pieces of the destruction he is wreaking.

Affairs do not survive in the light of day. Doing everything you can to end it is encouraged. Once again, this is against every instinct we have, but it works.

From what you say, I think that this A would not last long in a Plan B situation. She is meeting limited needs and he is just having a wonderful time having his cake and eating it too. While you are suffering. I would not reccomend doing Plan A for very much longer. It doesn't seem to be accomplishing its purpose, which is to separate the spouse from the lover.

Blessings to you... I'm sorry you have to deal with all this. It really is a terrible, terrible thing. Please let me know if I can help in any way. I don't usually play at this board, but I'll check back over the next week to see if you have questions.

You can always find me at the JFO board, at the world's longest thread started by Persistant. Just pop on over and ask for me if I don't show up here and you want more help.

Cerri

Oh, and even Harley whose first career goal... before Joyce vetoed it.... was to be a Baptist minister, does not do Plan A from the bible.

<small>[ October 05, 2002, 12:39 AM: Message edited by: cerri ]</small>

Cerri,

Thanks for helping here. I love reading your posts, as you obviously know what you are talking about.

A/C0810, This is a terrible time for you. Do use us here on MB to hold your hand through the coming days as you struggle with this. I know how alone a person can be in trying to save their marriage and their sanity.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by zorweb:
<strong>Cerri,

Thanks for helping here. I love reading your posts, as you obviously know what you are talking about.

A/C0810, This is a terrible time for you. Do use us here on MB to hold your hand through the coming days as you struggle with this. I know how alone a person can be in trying to save their marriage and their sanity.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Glad to help if I can. What are you doing up at this hour anyway? Or are you somewhere where the clocks don't say "way past C's bedtime"???? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Night all....

C

It's 11:43 pm here. I'm in a computer stupper.. you know where we stair at the sceen for a couple of minutes and then find out it's really been hours upon hours.

Nighty night

A/C
Hi just thinking about you. That is some good advice from Cerri. I have seen some of her other posts. Good stuff. I hope you are okay today. I am pulling for you.

Sharon

Thanks so much Cerri,inthedark, ute, going crazy,zorweb,orchid and cherise. You guys are just wonderful, i just dont know what i would do with out you. The advice you all gave is excellent. Just a few questions. She is coming and he is planning on seeing her for sure. I guess first off i should find out the day she is coming, and then tell him that the hurt of him being with her is too much for me to bare, and that it is best that you leave. Is this correct so far? I will plan a till this time of course. He will then say, well this is what i have been trying to tell you, but you kept insisting that i stay. Maybee i shouldnt suggest he leave, let him suggest it again. When the decision to leave has been made, i will then say ok, we will have to tell the children tonite when they come home from school. I will then proceed to write my plan B letter to him. Ok, how does all this sound, is this ok. I do have a right to ask him when she is coming and how long she will be staying, right?

My sleeping isnt too bad, could be better. Well my appetite is not good at all. My appetite was bad to begin with , but now its pretty bad. Anyway, thank you all so much for all the reply posts. A/C0810

HI A/C0810….

------- I do have a right to ask him when she is coming and how long she will be staying, right?

Yes you have the right to ask this. And if he will now give you a straight answer then simply tell him you cannot live with the indecisiveness and ask him to leave now.

------- I guess first off i should find out the day she is coming, and then tell him that the hurt of him being with her is too much for me to bare, and that it is best that you leave. Is this correct so far? I will plan a till this time of course.

Yes, that’s it. And every time he talks to her let him know you are hurt by it.

------- He will then say, well this is what i have been trying to tell you, but you kept insisting that i stay. Maybee i shouldnt suggest he leave, let him suggest it again.

No, you need to be the one to suggest it. He needs to know that you have limits. Since it’s so out of character for you… it may start a chain reaction where the fog starts to clear…who knows.

If he says that he’s been saying it all along just say …..

“I love you and was hoping that you cared enough to treat me with respect. In view of where things are going, I know it’s the only choice now.”

----- When the decision to leave has been made, i will then say ok, we will have to tell the children tonite when they come home from school.

Yep, he has to face his children and tell them. If he will not, then you do it. Be sure to not lie to them. Tell them why daddy is leaving them.

Dad says he loves another woman so he wants to be with her. He has been seeing this woman for x months. Mommy can no longer live with being hurt every day by dad’s actions. So daddy is leaving. You will be able to visit your father after custody/visitation arrangements are made.

----- I will then proceed to write my plan B letter to him. Ok, how does all this sound, is this ok.

Sounds good. You have a good plan. Keep us posted.

<img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> Oh, A/C, I just hate hearing the pain that emanates from your words. Please don't get discouraged though. Life is such hell, right now I know I've been there... but I would also hate to see you allow your husband to draw you into a situation in which you can't be afforded self respect and dignity. You deserve to be treated better than this.
I think your plan is right on the money except that you should stand up for yourself and tell him that the kind of behavior he has proposed is totally unnacceptable and if he insists on this course of action he will have to leave.
Take care and stay strong for your children. One day at a time...

Hugs to you A/C....I hope you are doing OK. My heart goes out to you. All of the wonderful people, ITD45, UTEFCW, GC, Cherise, Zorweb Cerri and Orchid have given you such great advice! Zorweb and Orchid have helped me so much over the past 10 months..they really know their stuff!! Cerri's post was absolutely amazing! I know all of their posts must have helped you. I just wanted you to know that you are in my thoughts and prayers. Something that has helped me to remember some of the advice people have given me is to print out the thread. That way if you need a quick reference, you have at your fingertips. Let us know how you are doing A/C. Take care of YOU!
BH

Let us know how you are doing, ok? Also, can you add some dates into your "My Profile"?

It is very difficult to ask these things to your husband, when is she coming, are you seeing her, etc without LBing, there is a fine line to cross here.
Also, do you think you will get a straight answer?

You know for sure shes coming (but dont know when), and you know for sure he will see her, right?? Sometimes we know the answers but ask anyway. In my experience, it deepens the pain and makes the WS even angrier, but I totally understand why you want to know, like I said, its a fine line

If you do decide to ask him, be careful, also make sure you do an awesome Plan A until then, he needs to remember what a wonderful wife he has when OW starts pushing him to get a divorce.

Here’s another great post about Plan A. You may have read it but just in case. How to be a doormat in Plan A

How’s it going?

Hi Zorweb...yes i did read that post about the doormat in plan a. Things are kinda quiet here. WH has a bad cold with a sore throat, so he is even more cranky and *****y than usual. I am keeping out of his way, so i wont LB. I am trying to pamper him, asking him if he wants some soup, etc., other than that i am not bothering him. Kids and i suggested he take his temperature, which he let me put the thermometer under his arm, I was surprised about that, but you know its the cake man syndrome, boy the best of both worlds.

I want to share something with you that has got me a little scared. Everyone speaks about the fog and the WH's babble about how they say they dont love you anymore and there is nothing there, etc. etc. When I look at my husband, I can see in his face that he doesnt have that look like he used to have,he looks (this is so weird) like he has that expression on his face that he really does mean all this hurtful stuff. Its like he has a different face now. Its very cold and unfeeling sort of face.

I was reading the sample plan b letters, boy they are scary, hope i can bring myself to write one. Telling my WH that i cant speak or see him. I think he would consider that an LB. He would see that as me being a *****. anyone got to go , here comes the kids...A/C0810

Yes, he will have that look on his face. It's because he is an unhappy man and he needs someone to blame for it. You are the easiest target.

I will bet that almost every BS could say the same thing about thier WS.. that's why we say they have been taken over by aliens.