Sharon,
I checked the lovebuster list, and you know what? Stating facts and actual circumstances is not on there <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> .

Just remember anything you put in print is documentation.

Hi Lor, Orchid,

I got a reply from H. He basically thinks I am trying to put him on the street. That my lawyer is a greedy SOB. He told me his leaving and our D has NOTHING to do with OW. That he has been miserable for years and just held on because of the kids. He wants to know what his compensation is for staying in the marriage for years when he was miserable. He thinks I am just making him try to pay for what he has done. He said I can blame the OW as much as I want,I didn't blame her, I said that HE made the choice to hurt me, He has said that he never meant to hurt me. I just told him he has hurt me more than anything. That he chose to hurt me. He knew having the A would hurt me and CHOSE it. I Never blamed her, or said anything about her. His only answer it has NOTHING to do with her. It has EVERYTHING to do with me starting to go to church with my F******, self-rigtheous, a-hole, neighbors and friends.

Then at the end of the letter he says he knew I would start to hate him and he guesses this is it. That he doesn't hate me and never will. That he is sorry for the rant. THINGS ARE JUST GETTING TO HIM!!!. That he hopes we can work things out without lawyers. That they are all crooks and out to prolong the case to make money.

Orchid, Lor, have I totally misjudged the situation? Maybe my M was over a long time ago. I know you don't know the answer but I would truly value YOUR OPINION. Did your H's act like the M was impossible to repair. That things were over long before OW came along? How can I tell the difference? Or does it even matter?

Needless to say my Lawyer is NOT impressed with my H's attitude. He is shocked. He says he can't believe he acts like this and then expects us to want to negotiate fairly with him.

Anyway, it has been a bad day. But I feel good about standing up to him. I think I am actually the first person who has ever stood up to him and given him back what he has given.

Oh and BTW this really ticks me off. He accused me of just being encouraging to him in his tough times at work to look out for my own self-interest. WHO is this MAN? Am I CRAZY trying to win him back??????

Sharon,
I've just got a second, but "I've been miserable for years" is WS speak. Heard by many, manay BS. The thing is, if he was so miserable, wouldn't you have noticed, maybe, a little moodiness.

A reasonable person realizing things aren't going quite right, speaks with their spouse, maybe asks what the spouse thinks about counseling or a vacation or new hobbies. They don't go have an affair and THEN say they were unhappy.

If he had no OW, he'd be more believable NOW about having been unhappy THEN. It's like with the OP, the WS rewrites history so that what they are doing makes sense.

If you were that lousy a wife, he should have told you, or asked you if you could do XYZ (something) so the 2 of you were more on the same page.

Making the OP blameless is also WS speak. Promotes the OP as a good guy (understanding, oh my what a good friend!) and makes the BS the bad guy (oh migosh...you went to CHURCH!? That's always such a bad sign... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ).

posted by uteconf footballwidow:
<strong>I got a reply from H. He basically thinks I am trying to put him on the street. That my lawyer is a greedy SOB. He told me his leaving and our D has NOTHING to do with OW. That he has been miserable for years and just held on because of the kids. </strong>

WS babble. So tell him ok, then leave the OW so I can believe you.

<strong>He wants to know what his compensation is for staying in the marriage for years when he was miserable. He thinks I am just making him try to pay for what he has done.</strong>

His compensation is living with his sin and smiling knowing that he has abandoned his family and injured them in a way no man should. Now does he want more compensation?

<strong>He said I can blame the OW as much as I want,I didn't blame her, </strong>

More WS babble.

<strong>I said that HE made the choice to hurt me, He has said that he never meant to hurt me. I just told him he has hurt me more than anything. That he chose to hurt me. He knew having the A would hurt me and CHOSE it./[qb]

Yea? Well he did, so now what. The debate is not whether he hurt you or not but how much.

[qb] I Never blamed her, or said anything about her. His only answer it has NOTHING to do with her.</strong>

Really??? Ok, then live 5 years after the D without the OW or any OW and maybe just maybe you might believe him.

<strong> It has EVERYTHING to do with me starting to go to church with my F******, self-rigtheous, a-hole, neighbors and friends. </strong>

Then he needs to find you an acceptable alternative. More WS babble.

<strong>Then at the end of the letter he says he knew I would start to hate him and he guesses this is it.</strong>

Well you need to tell him that he told you before that you can't control how he thinks. If he wants to believe a lie for the rest of his life, that is his choice. It isn't true but that's his choice. (this is called reverse babble)

<strong> That he doesn't hate me and never will. That he is sorry for the rant. THINGS ARE JUST GETTING TO HIM!!!. That he hopes we can work things out without lawyers. That they are all crooks and out to prolong the case to make money. </strong>

Wow a piece of real conversation. Let him know that it was good to hear something positive. Encourage him to help you feel more positive (reverse babble in progress here!) . You were almost in tears until you came to these sentences. Now the piece about the lawyers might be true but unless you have a loving H to protect you.....well ya know? (leave him hanging on this thought if you can and DON'T tell him more).

<strong>Orchid, Lor, have I totally misjudged the situation? Maybe my M was over a long time ago. I know you don't know the answer but I would truly value YOUR OPINION. Did your H's act like the M was impossible to repair. That things were over long before OW came along? How can I tell the difference? Or does it even matter?</strong>

Right now hon, you can't tell. He is babbling and making life changing decisions off of it. Just know that his words are very very common. Lor heard them, I did and so did many other BS'. Now if you look at the flip side how is he going to justify you NOT blaming the OW (even when you really haven't yet) unless he accuses you of the M being over way before the OW? You see more fogese here.

So I would tell him well you are greatly disappointed that he didn't have the balls to tell you before the OW. But since she is now in the pix that both he and the OW are fair blame game.

By the way? Sniff the air and notice a stench!?!?? OW is nearby..... YIKES! Yea, put OW doubt in his brain. Make him think he even smells a bit. Like, what is that OW doing to you? Isn't she taking care of you? Geeze you look pretty ragged...... go tell her to take better care of you before I have press abuse charges. Then watch him run!

Ok, I am getting back to my old BS self here. But some of these tactics are what I used.

<strong>Needless to say my Lawyer is NOT impressed with my H's attitude. He is shocked. He says he can't believe he acts like this and then expects us to want to negotiate fairly with him.</strong>

See you are not the only one who thinks he's shorted a bit on the top.

Really!

Be cautious and careful.

take care,
L.

<small>[ October 22, 2002, 09:26 PM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>

Hi Sharon,
I can only add that I agree with Lor and Orchid. I, too, was one of the WS's who said the 'miserable for years' thing. Now what a fool I feel--I said that to some close relatives, and now the relatives know that I only want my marriage and BS back. Some of the relatives have even reminded me of the fact that I said this stuff, and so now they're saying I can't possibly REALLY want my exH back. Helpful, eh?

Anyway, just let the dust settle. If your H is anything like me, in time he'll wake up and see the real truth in his life. Has he even gone through the holidays without you? I don't think so, no. Just give it time, and take good care of yourself.

Also, thanks for your appreciation of my responses to you before. LIke I told you before, the fact that I have somehow comforted you is the only good thing I can say about the horrible path I chose. In other words, out of my bad choice in my life and now my telling you of that experience, I am glad I can be helpful in some small way.

God Bless,
H_P

Thanks Orchid and Lor,

I don't even think I'm going to respond to him. Should I? My lawyer is already sending our next petition. He, lawyer, was so calm in his return letter. It is kind of funny. My lawyer says "I want to take this guy to court." H is really getting to him even.

Anyway back to responding, should I, point to point or should I just let him have his rant and be done with it. I don't like the fact that he thinks I am playing him or something. I really do care about him and I do have genuine concern for him. I love him. But I also think it might be good for him to think I hate him for awhile. To think that OW is only one there for him. He expressed appreciation that I was supporting him during the tough times at work. Could this be a hint that maybe OW doesn't know about these things? After all she can't be supportive of his hard times if she doesn't know about them. Maybe I should force him to turn to her. IF and that's a big IF, she really loves him and cares for him, she will be there for him. If she does that I will accept it and move on. If she doesn't we will know what she is after.

I tried not to LB in my letter. Of course he took it all in an LB way. He doesn't even understand what I am saying he goes right on the defensive and twists everything I say. Then, though at the end of his letter I get a little peek at H, not WH. He said he doesn't hate me and never will. Then hopes I will have a good week!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

BTW, I have noticed some WS's come here and find their spouses thread and get very angry, does this happen often? It kind of scares me. If H knew I was here he would NEVER get over it.

Anyway, it does give me some good thoughts to know you've heard all his stuff before. I don't feel like I am ready to say NEVER. I am ready to accept any outcome and to go through with the D. But something in my heart and mind has told me from DAY 1 not to give up no matter how bad it got.

Love to you all and thanks,

Sharon

Hey H_P,

We must have posted at the same time. Thanks for your reply. So you said those things? Did you have a #1 reason you left your H. My H says the #1 reason he left me is the church thing. That that is when 99% of his problems started. I knew it bothered him but I had NO IDEA how badly. That is why I worry that maybe it is the truth. But I really think we could have worked it out if we had talked about it and tried. He NEVER TRIED. He said he thought and thought and cried and read and went to counseling (all after he had left and I found out about the A) and came to the final decision that it would NEVER WORK. Well he NEVER tried with me, in person, face to face. He would barely even talk about it with me.

So whadda ya think? On the holiday thing NO, we haven't been apart. He is complaining because he says he won't be able to visit for Xmas, can't afford it. Do you think I should offer to pay for his ticket? I just got an emergency credit card, with a high limit. I could offer, if he would pay me back. I know this is enabling and rewarding him for misbehaving. But?????? It would be a HUGE LB$ deposit. Is this a totally stupid thing to even be thinking??? I guess I should ask Lor and Orchid too.

Thanks H-P, we are a mutual admiration society. You are the best <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Sharon

Hi Sharon,
Yes, we must have posted at the same time! Yes, I did say the 'miserable for years' thing.

Number one reason we split up is that I was tired of lying. I had already been involved with OM for TWO years (long distance--EA--visits though, in person for 18 months--sporadic) when we split up. I just was tired of lying.

The marital problem we had was that I had more interest in affection and $=X than he did. I I know, usually we perceive men as having a greater interest. BUT I think I had more interest as he was rather passive about it, so I had to have it. Plus I stupidly, insecurely thought that his lack of desire meant something against me. The hard part was that I always seemed to get a lot of attention from men, and not too much, or so I perceived , from him--my spouse. I felt unappreciated, taken for granted. Plus he worked wacky hours, we never had recreational time together. Twas impossible, never off together. (I worked part time then, on his days off)

Realization now- I was needy, and a bit insecure. Now that I work full time, I don't have time to sit and dream up romantic notions of what marriage should be.

LIke you and your husband, exH and I never worked things out face to face . WE DID , however, go to a marriage counselor about 10 years ago. It was very helpful. When ExH got the job with the bad hours, things plummeted. Plus my kids were getting older, didn't need me so much...MLC thing for me too. (not to make excuses here)

I think it would be very kind to offer to pay for his ticket. IF I were in your shoes, I would do it. But, I too would like to see what others would say about it. I would do, Sharon, what feels right and good in YOUR heart. Can he truly not afford it? I certainly wouldn't go into too much debt into paying for a ticket. Credit card bills go up fast! Sorry, I am sounding flaky here, I guess I would do it if it seems the right thing to do. (Maybe the real thing is that the OW is pressuring him not to go there, to be with all of you. That could be the real reason, couldn't it?)

Thanks again for your support...

H_P

Sharon,

I am going to take the hard line here and even though I value H-P's comments, I think that the WS in the fog will NOT appreciate your kind gesture. I wouldn't even give him a credit card. You want him to deal with himself and offering him a way out will only delay that lesson.

He is the one that is making it harder not you. Keep that in mind. Dr Dobson mentions in the books 'love must be tough' that doing things for the WS is not really an act of love but more an act of enabling (not exact words).

That is why the BS is blamed so much. If he can't make Xmas or anything else, let him suffer those consequences. Yes, let the OW meet all his needs. That is what I had to do. I used to pay for all H's credit card bills. The appreciation I got was he went out and spent more on the OW. You see where this is going.....

As for responding to him and his allegations about you playing games. Well, when I was accused of that, I said, 'well if you want me to play games.....I'll try. I might not be as good as you and the OW but I will try' Really I said that. Then I did it.

By the way, I used to call the OW by her last name. Not her first name. See the first name has special meaning to the WS. Calling an OW, Mrs. _ _ _ _ _, just takes the romance out of it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Of course the Ws does not like the games the BS can play. Reverse babble is a game. But it is a game where the BS can be in control and really drive home a point or 2. You just have to be careful about it and know it could backfire.

So for me, when I reversed babble, I would practice in front of the mirror. It was hard and even funny but it worked. I am pretty good at this reverse babble junk.......even use it at work when things get real stupid. Works there also. LOL!!!

take care,
L.

<small>[ October 23, 2002, 12:35 AM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>

H_P it is so WEIRD. You sound SO much like my H it is scary. Except for H worked the long hours and traveled alot. And the s3x thing is kind of backward.

The never trying to work things out has bothered me alot from day 1. But when I tried to say didn't 24 yrs deserve a chance, he would always say, "Don't throw that up in my face, should I have to do something I don't want just because of 24 yrs." Those words really HURT.

I am thinking about the ticket thing. I would really hate for him not to see the kids. I don't think <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> it has anything to do with OW. If I did it, it would definitly be enabling, plus not making him suffer the consequences of his actions. There is good and bad on both sides. I would do it out of love in a second. But I also am trying to accomplish something here, a bigger picture if you like, and I don't want to screw it up. I STILL haven't given up hope. I must be TOTALLY INSANE, but I feel something. I don't think it is just wishful thinking, I don't think it is fooling myself, I don't think it is just hope. It is more like FAITH. I may be setting myself up for a BIG LETDOWN. But something won't let me give up. I can move forward and do the things I need to do, but that SOMETHING doesn't diminish. Through all this the ups and downs the bad and horrible, when I deep down ask myself and God "What do I do?" IT'S THERE. That something. I can't deny it. I don't understand it, I wouldn't bet on it, but IT'S THERE.

BTW, how are your kids doing? I hope you are still having a good relationship with them. My H withdrew from the kids after A and wasn't Father Knows Best before the A, so it is sad. I think my kids are in denial, the youngest two. 21 yr old is ANGRY and BITTER but still loves her dad and is nice to him. OD is nice and respectful but disappointed and disgusted (she was friends with OW,) and tried to make her feel at home by taking her around and to sorority activities and to some parties when she came to US on occasion, HE** we invited OW to OD's wedding, she was out of country though. OD worked in the same company as H and OW. OW would come to America occasionally to work on projects, H would go to Romainia, same reason, that is how this whole thing got started.

Looking back I have to tell you a kind of funny story. H's company had an Xmas party. OW was there. I had never met her but had expressed concern about amount of time H had to spend with her ALONE, talking about business!! he was trying to set up, she was to be an overseas liason. ANYWHO, H tells me there is nothing to worry about " OW is ugly, she's from Romainia for Heck's sake". So we go to party with OD and husband, and GUESS who saunters up in a slinky gown to meet WIFEYPOO?? GEORGEOUS <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> OW. Well I about fell off my chair. When party was over I got in car with H, OD and ODH and said "I thought OW was ugly?" OD got mad at me for being so silly and jealous. H just looked at me like I was CRAZY.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

BOY WAS I STUPID.

Well that's my comedy for the night. I should have put a chastity belt on H that very night.

Take care. Talk to ya later.

WIFEYPOO

<small>[ October 23, 2002, 12:42 AM: Message edited by: uteconf footballwidow ]</small>

Hi Sharon, you are getting pretty good advice from Orchid and Lor and HP, can I just re-iterate something Orchid said "Be cautious and careful". When their foggy what they do is for their own purposes (sorry to say).

I'm telling you because it really hurts later when you see what the plan was (for them) and you didn't draw your boundary.

Re the fog stuff, I think it was Orchid who said once that when a WS says something that makes you think "huh?" its fogese. It really works! All that stuff about being miserable for years, yep heard that too. Aparently living with me was like talking to a brick wall for years, he was so miserable! Funny though, WH let a little secret slip this week - he's still not happy! even with his new Thai Princess who is such a wonderful person and listens attentively all the time <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Hang in there bud! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Sharon,
If he really doesn't have money, there's always evening bar-tending. Especially right before the holidays, lots of caterers hire extra bar-tenders...so then he'd have the money to come see the kids for Xmas.

Do you see? He has options.

Oh...his evenings aren't free? Somebody he has to spend time with?

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I bet that thought doesn't warm your heart.

He should be sending YOU money, for the kids, for the house, for you.

Priceline.com, Hotwire.com have great airfare rates, is he monitoring Hotwire every day for those rates? (you can only do the same search every 72 hours, but if you change the dates by a day you can do them as often as you have available vacation days.)

You know during the divorcing time I have a couple months as being a WS. I remember the sliding glass door not working, talking to my H about it, y'know what my Plan A H said? "I guess you'll have to talk to the OM about that, he'll be doing your repairwork from now on." (he sounded like Orchid!). It wasn't a lovebuster to me, it was a shot of reality.

If your H is with the OW at Xmas time, you know he'll get her a gift, likely the price of a airline ticket...he'll get her appreciation and if you send him the ticket he'll get that as well.

Thanks Orchid,

I know you're right. I can't help him. Helping him is what got us here in the first place. EVERYBODY helps him. I HAVE to let him rely on him and OW. I think he would appreciate the gesture, but then again, it could be seen as manipulation, and rightfully so, on my part.

I was beginnig to think him and OW weren't "together" but the way he defends her and stuff makes me think he is still in the A and fogged. Otherwise why not just say "look I am not even with OW, this has nothing to do with her, I am alone now and I still want the D" RIGHT???
Perfect way to show me that he is really serious. Yeah I think she has got her hooks in him and I think she is playing a few "GAMES" of her own.

It is weird how I seem to imagine she is perfect and incapable of doing anything out of ulterior motives. I guess because she is young and seemed like a nice person. I really think she is telling my H she can't get "REALLY INVOLVED" with him till the D. I just have that feeling. To H it makes her seem honorable and wonderful, and worth protecting. Boy what I wouldn't give to be a fly on the wall in their world for a day.

Seahorse- Yeah I don't think my H is happy either. He hasn't admitted it but I can see it when he is here and hear it in his e-mails.
It is because they want someone or something to MAKE them happy. Ain't gonna happen. NEVER. It's INSIDE. You are happy from the inside out NEVER from the outside in.

How is your situation going. I still think about your beach post. That would be so nice. You are a beautiful writer.

Anyway Orchid, Seahorse, I will be cautious and careful. Thanks.

Sharon

Thanks Lor,

You really made me think. I have to agree. I bet OW will get a lovely present. I know he bought her a string of pearls a while back. I haven't gotten jewelry from him for years. I HAVE to stop thinking my H is in his right mind. He seems so sincere in some things. But I have to remember everything he sees is through "OW COLORED GLASSES"

Thanks for the wake up call.

Also I was interested to hear that you were a WS during divorce time. I was telling H_P that the reason I was so nice to WH is because I can totally see myself doing the same thing he is doing. In fact I would probably be the FOGGIEST WS EVER. I tend to take everything to the extreme. After all if you're going to do something you might as well do it till it kills you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I think this whole holiday thing might be the first real smack of reality. I'd better leave it alone. My H is VERY PREDICTABLE if HE wants something he can find money for it. That is just the way he is.

Thanks again.

Sharon

Hi Sharon,

I agree with Orchid and Lor, we are supposed to love even our ememies but we don't have to enable them. ( I'm not saying he is an ememy, just using the illustration.)

You have an ache in your heart that has not gone away yet and you are willing to do nearly anything if you think it will help. I believe you are getting good advice to let him suffer the results of his decisions without bailing him out.

I hope those neighbors and friends you are going to church with are supporting you and helping you right now. If so, it shows who is correct and Christ like, he is not supporting you, or showing love with what he is doing.

Like many others, I am praying for you.

SS

Sharon,
I just lost 2 very long, detailed posts to you, I guess I'll take that as a sign <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> and try to be brief.

It was an unwise move on my part to date while divorcing. I was hurt, H was hurt the OM was hurt. My marriage very nearly missed this last chance for recovery.

In our 7th separation, my H did read most of my then thousands of posts. He was angered, didn't think I had presented the facts evenly. Of course I didn't, I presented my side, as I saw it. Both of us posting didn't work very well for us while we were separated, and he has since lost interest in posting, he'd rather put it all in the past. I feel a debt of gratitude to MB, so I'm not ready to move on yet. He understands and is welcome to read my posts if he wishes.

managed to grab a few moments to pop on- see you are getting alot of good advice. good for you for not falling for your H's psychological tricks.

He's worried about not seeing his kids enough? It was HIS choice to move 1,000 miles away. Not yours, not the kids'. He can choose to reconcile, or to move closer if he wants more access to them. Anyway don't fall into the trap of giving him advice. He needs to figure this out for himself. I think the best response is to throw it all back in his lap-
"I know it must be hard for you to not see the kids. I can't presume to tell you what to do. I hope you will be able to solve this problem to your satisfaction."

Don't discuss any divorce settlements with him. Refer him to your lawyer. Or limit it to- "I can't agree to your proposal at this time, until my lawyer has determined it is in the best interest of the children."

You can Plan A and still proceed with divorce. While in Plan A with my husband, while he was planning on moving out, I told him we would have to figure out a visitation schedule. He actually printed up a calendar on his computer. Such discussions made the consequences of divorce more real to him. I made it clear I would not be his friend. I told him I loved him but I would have to cut him out of my heart so I wouldn't be in horrible pain. It took a while but finally he woke up to the reality of what he would lose.

The key is to be as respectful as you can be under the circumstances. NOT "you idiot, how can you make such a stupid choice and throw it all away?" BUT "I am truly sorry that you have made this choice. It is very painful to all of us. We miss you." When discussing the divorce, avoid anything that will seem confrontational or vengeful. Just keep emphasizing consequences in a calm way. You know how we say to a toddler- "don't touch the stove honey, you'll get burned." We don't say it angrily. If the child touches the stove, and is crying we'll say, "I told you not to touch the stove. This is what happens when you touch hot things. Please remember this the next time I warn you about danger." Ideally we don't scream at said toddler and say, "You stupid idiot, I told you not to touch the stove!"

(The only problem with this analogy- Your H is an adult, not a toddler!)

So, when he whines about the money, say "Yes, dear, maintaining two residences is very expensive." I would be tempted to add- "It's lucky you have OW to pitch in with expenses" but that definitely could be considered an LB. Or, "it's unfortunate divorce is accompanied by such stressful financial pressures."

Do your inlaws know about OW? Do the kids? What about friends?

I think your husband is living in a bubble. The reason he moved so far away is to avoid breaking the bubble. He hasn't had to deal with the pain and anger of his children. He hasn't had to bring OW over for dinner with his parents. His solution was to run away fast and quietly.

Your WS will try to spin many stories for you to avoid paying the price. His sob stories about his finances are another example of that. He will set up his scenario of how it should work- a scenario with no consequences for him. In his world, he should be able to leave you, have a fabulous romance with OW, who will meet all his needs, have her be accepted by family and friends, maintain a friendship in which you support him with you, and have no financial hardship as a result of his infidelity, and pop into his kids' lives when he feels like it to enjoy their love and affection. NOT!

My WS tried that too. He planned to move out for the summer, and spend the time "exploring" me and OW. At one point he mentioned coming over to toss a ball around the backyard with our son. I said, I don't know about that. He said "Are you telling me I can't play catch with my son in my own backyard?" At the time, I hadn't found MB. He was feeding me scenarios (I move out, we stay friends, I come down and visit at the house) and I was agreeing to them because I had not yet figured out it was all WS babble. But in this case, I didn't agree, I said something like, I will have to look into that, with the undertone that it might not be alright.

I did do alot of questioning- as calmly as I could. I would ask, how do you think OW will handle the role of stepmother? He would say, she's not our kids' stepmother. I'd say, well, you're leaving me for her, and if you marry her, she will be our children's stepmother. Then he's say, well I don't know, she doesn't know much about children. Maybe I said, Well handling 3 children might be challenging for her, but then I pretty much dropped the subject. But it forced my H to look at what would happen. Thank God he saw the light of day before taking the step of moving out. BTW, how does your H feel about having more children? That is no doubt on OW's agenda for the future- and the answer to that question could be interesting.

In my H's case, he told me "oh, OW doesn't want children, she has a history of disease in her genetics." then I actually called OW, and in the course of our polite conversation, she admitted to me that she wanted children some day. I mentioned this to my H- he knew about the call, because she immediately called him. Again it made him confront reality- and in my H's case, he emphatically does not want more children. This is something we both agree on. He had to think about the reality that the child issue would be a major bone of contention between him and OW.

Part of your problem is that your H was able to move out under the cover of darkness, with you agreeing (due to his deception). He didn't have to face reality first- I think it is only starting to sink in now.

I do think your M could still have a chance, though it might take another six months before your H figures out OW isn't what he thought.

BTW, how is she paying for her school? Who sponsored her for her visa? If H is paying any of her expenses then he is diverting marital property to her, half of which becomes a debt to you in divorce. Is your state a no fault state, or are there penalties for adultery?

I've asked you alot of questions in this post, and I'm curious about your answers.

WOW, Thanks everyone. Guess I'll answer in order.

Still Seeking- Yes I have decided I had better follow Orchid and Lor's advice he is just starting to feel the consequences now, I owe it to both of us to let him. He told my OD and her H that he had sure made a lot of bad decisions lately. He needs to let OW fill-in the support network. We'll see how she does. It should be a real test of her intentions.

As for my friends and church members. They have been WONDERFUL. My H never took the time to know them. He just assumes things they think about him. I have had my church offer and give me free counseling. People helping me. Calling me. Bringing me gifts and pick me ups.

You want to know who my WH's biggest critic is? HIS best friend. The one who has known him since 8th grade. My friends would welcome my H back with love. Because they love me and love him. They are Christ like wonderful people. Thanks for the prayers I need them.

Lor- thanks for taking the time to write 2 long and 1 brief. I know that happened to me last night I was so mad.

I think your dating advice is wise. It is hard though because I think you want ( I want) to prove someone would still be interested after all the ego-busting a D and A causes.

I am not too worried about my H reading these things. He said I could talk about this to anyone I wanted. In the immortal words of Bugs Bunny "HE DON'T KNOW ME VERY WELL DO HE"

I too feel a real debt to MB. It saved me.

ESPOIR- Yeah his not seeing the kids thing. What am I supposed to do. He really blew it there. He is very much a person who doesn't think past the moment. He did need to get a job, but he should have thought about it more. He has been looking for other jobs. I have gotten mailings about receiving applications from him from a couple of companies, one just last week. Not in our state though. But closer. Makes me wonder... Why is our address on them???

I have not dicussed any D stuff with him since I went to the lawyer. H is mad because we sort of had an agreement written up, I got cold feet in signing, wanted a Lawyer advice. Well I didn't like what I heard. Even H's Dad thought he was being unfair. I initially took the agreement to Lawyer to just have it filed and push it through, that is what H was expecting, but I changed my mind when I talked to Lawyer. Also H did a couple of things that set off alarms in my mind. Now all the D stuff goes through lawyer. H seems awfully anxious to get my lawyer out of the picture. I have to wonder why. We are not forcing him to sign anything, we are calmly negotiating. What is he afraid of. He talks about getting his own lawyer. Fine with me. He doesn't want to spend the money. Well I don't have the money either but I am willing to pay to insure fairness to me. After every threat of getting his own lawyer is a big plea to work it out ourselves. WHY??

I am still planning on Plan Aing him. The letter I sent the other day was kind of in answer to all his whinning about money. I just let him know our circumstances. Plus I let him know how I felt about the things he'd done. I used some strong language (out of charater for me) but only to describe MY pain, and My hurt. I did not call him any names. I mentioned some lies and deceitful things he had done, but I did not call him any names or put him or OW down in any way. I insinuated he did not care about my future. That REALLY made him mad. He said he couldn't believe I think that after he has tried to do everything right. I just straight out told him some things that I think he has needed to hear that I have been afraid to say. How he took them, that is his problem. HE read all kinds of things into what I said. He put himself down in his response more than I did in my letter. INTERESTING.

Yes my family knows about OW. His parents found out recently. His sister has known everything from the beginning. She has been a help and confidant to me. My older kids know. I think the 15 yr. old has it figured out but I have never told her outright, or my son. That is one thing: if H is so proud of OW and she has nothing to do with our M dissolving WHY is he HIDING their relationship. He wouldn't even tell his folks. HE NEVER mentions her. HE REFUSES to talk about them. He only told his best friend a couple of months ago.

Yes I think he is definitely in a bubble. The fact that OW has only been here since mid August doesn't help. I don't know much about her. But she is a career woman. Don't know about the kids thing. My H is not the father type. Can't see him wanting to start a new family. He told me when this all started happening that he DIDN'T want to get married again. But he seems to have softened on that. If OW is looking for a ticket to the US they will have to marry.

I think one the of reasons it will take a while for reality to set in is that H keeps putting off reality. I think things are already going sour but I think this is his THINKING PROCESS:
Before he moved:"Things will be better when I get out of here"
When he first got to his job-"Things will be okay once I decide, OW or WIFE."
When things didn't get better then:"Things will get better when OW gets here"
Now it's "Things will get better when D is final"
Then WHAT will it be? He is going to run out of excuses soon and find out the only one who can make things okay for him is HIM. There is that old saying "Wherever you go, there YOU are"

Don't know about OW school, she got a student visa don't know details. IF OW is living with H he is certainly helping, I don't think he is paying for education though. She comes from a fairly prominient Romainian family and has had GOOD jobs. So I think she has $$$$.

My state is VERY pro-family. Lawyer said laws are starting to slowly change back from NO-FAULT so ADULTERY is the ground. Which is funny, H doesn't object to that at all. Thought that wasn't the reason? So why doesn't he say "Take that out"
There is also a clause in the papers that says H is solely responsible for any debts incurred since he moved out.

PHEW I'm tired.

Anyway thanks everyone for your support, prayes, answers and advice.

Sharon

<small>[ October 23, 2002, 05:29 PM: Message edited by: uteconf footballwidow ]</small>

I just did something that I hope wasn't stupid. I felt it though. I wrote a reply to H. Very short. Apologizing for a coulple of the misconceptions he threw out to me. Ending I said:

If you are happy then I am happy for you. I am happy and moving on. You were right.

Now I didn't say right about what. But I did mean the part about moving on. If this is an LB too late. It was a very short e-mail. Just to let him know I didn't hate him. So at least we can communicate about kids. Although I didn't mention that. He just needed to know I am not sitting here stewing and hating him for that letter. Never wanting to talk to him again.

I read his letter over and over. There is so much bitterness and anger. He really needs to work through this. Whatever it is that is the root cause of all this anger, resentment, hatred <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> I cannot fix it. I will plan A when he contacts or is around. But I think he really has to know he is free. Maybe once he is not tethered to me in any way he can fly above the fog. I am letting him go. He must decide if he wants to return.