Okay. I got confused somewhere along the line then as to what exactly went on. Sorry. I agree totally that he needs to grow up though and that slamming the door in her face for several months is not a good idea but he also has an ego problem and that is not a good thing when you want to save a marriage.

I guess I got confused. I didn't realize it was the same A with the same person on different occasions. My bust. Sorry. Zoey

<small>[ October 21, 2002, 11:56 AM: Message edited by: Zoey ]</small>

Zoey:

Whoa!

Jen's original posts made it clear that she had "one A" with "one OM" (her h's best friend), which consisted of 2 ONSs (not even an EA), that her H KNEW were happening and did NOTHING 2 stop them (he listened outside the door both times!). He is now involved in at least an on-going EA, possibly a PA, with a "friend" that he had when Jen had her A... ...all of which has led ME 2 wonder if he set her up 2 make himself feel less guilty for what he already had planned 2 do.

None of this is as important as HOW Jen (and her H) heals from this experience. But Jen seems 2 put herself down unjustifiably at times. She may have been the WS on 2 occasions a few months ago, but her H has been using those events as an excuse 2 make her feel guilty and avoid facing the irresponsibility of his own choice 2 have an A. Jen's a terrific person and she's grown a lot. I wish her H would do the same.

Ok I corrected my thoughts but I never said a bad thing about Jen. Sorry if you got that. I was writing about how HE may be looking at things, not that I agree with him. I don't. I feel he has been acting like a little boy the whole time and always thought Jen deserved MUCH better. I have told her that a ton of times. I told her I felt he was acting like a kid and trying to justify what he was doing.

I was writing from his perspective since she asked that question BUT nothing I said was in defense of ANYTHING that he is doing. I"m totally against it. I have said time and time again how in the H can you start to recover if you ignore someone for that long. How can he expect her to wait and wait and wait with NO words whatsoever. It's insane. He went to plan B to suit himself as I see it.

Sorry you got the wrong impression. I never said one thing bad against Jen. EVER! I only said from HIS view, I think this is how he is seeing things but that does not mean that I personally agree with him. I don't and I think Jen has waited LONG enough. Life is short. If he wants to act that way, so be it but Jen has a life to live and she is worthy of a loving person to spend it with, not a child.

and I really did get confused. I didn't know that it was two ONS. I thought it was one and he caught her so that confused me. Sorry. I made a mistake. I read it as if there were several A's. I didn't read it right but regardless I NEVER said a bad thing about Jen and I never agreed with what H was doing. EVER!! I think I told her when she mentioned wanting to work things out to be careful what she wishes for in this case because I think she deserves so much more. She is a super person and to me the best part of life is passing her H by...JEN!

Zoey

<small>[ October 21, 2002, 12:02 PM: Message edited by: Zoey ]</small>

P.S.

This is why it took me so long to join. People on this site think you are saying one thing when you are not and they don't ask for an explanation, they just assume and bash you for it. This is why it took over 2 years for me to even post here. I read day in and day out people getting yelled at and jumped for no reason. UUUGGGHHHHH!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I think its time for an MB break. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Zoey:

Sorry if it sounded like I was jumping on you. I apologize. I certainly didn't intend that. I also don't think you were saying anything bad about Jen. Yes, her H has been behaving childishly in my opinion as well.

All my best,

2ble post

<small>[ October 21, 2002, 12:34 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

Zoey please stay around. You were one of the ones that kept me here.

Zoey:

YES!!! Please don't "take a break" from MB. Once again, I'm sorry if it sounded like I was bashing you. I DEFINITELY didn't intend that.

All my respect,

Its cool Im over it and your all stuck with me
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Hooray!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Well then, it looks like there were some tense moments today....but have no fear, I'm still fine my dears. Thanks for trying to stick up for me, even though eventually you both realized you were on the same side. Kind of funny to read actually.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Maybe I can clear some stuff up. I probably technically had 3 PA's, if any fooling around counts, with 3 different men. Four years ago, I fooled around with (kissed) a male friend on a couple of occasions, and confessed after both to my H. Then 2 years ago, I had a bit of an ongoing fooling around but no sex, and no real emotional attachment either type of relationship with a coworker. I told my H about this one too, but he didn't think it went beyond one encounter, yet it did for a few months. Then in May of 2002, after developing a bit of a friendship with my H's best friend, since we worked together, and since he was a part of our social life almost every weekend, me and the BF ended up drunk on two occasions, and had sex both times. OM made the first move. My H did listen to both events, without bothering to interrupt. The second time he made me feel unwelcome in my own bed (had EA lady in there actually) and pretty much sent me into OM's arms IMHO.

So, based on the fragments that remain after the posts from Zoey and 2long, I hope that clears the confusion up about there being 3 times.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But Jen seems 2 put herself down unjustifiably at times. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When I do this, it's probably me thinking the way that I assume my H is thinking. It's because I don't want to let myself feel like it's all okay, because if/when I am back with my H, I know I'll get continual negative messages, so I need to remain comfortable with them. Lastly, I put myself down because I feel like a horrible person for being such a selfish person that I could choose to cheat on the only man I ever loved, and the only man I ever slept with before this mess began (my H), and risk our marriage and future together. It was a huge mistake, one that gives me the right to put myself down I figure! (Although I know it's not healthy to dwell on doing that!)

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ANYWAY....I still am seeking thoughts and opinions on my two primary concerns at the moment: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "I worry that I am going to have trouble living my life "for" him again, and not "for me" if we get back together. "

and

So, how the heck can we live happily as two individuals yet as a married couple? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So now that there are several cans of worms on the table, feel free to dig into whichever one interests you!

Jen

Jen:

Well, I guess I didn't know your whole story, because I don't remember the other 2 men you describe above. Perhaps these events are what led your H 2 "test" you with his best friend. Still sick, in my opinion.

As 2 your questions, I thought I'd offered my answers, but here they are again if not:

"I worry that I am going to have trouble living my life "for" him again, and not "for me" if we get back together."

You should each live your lives for yourselves. A good M is one where you SHARE your individualities, not stifle them. Oops, I answered the 2nd question, 2!

"So, how the heck can we live happily as two individuals yet as a married couple?"

Read Passionate Marriage by David Schnarch, particularly the chapter on "differentiation". Basically, it says what I said above. M is for nurturing and helping individuals grow in2 stronger individuals, not for subjugating one for the benefit of the other.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So now that there are several cans of worms on the table, feel free to dig into whichever one interests you!

Jen
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes I hear that worms are nutritionally balanced little critters chocked full of vitamins and minerals. Using a little bit of oil and stir frying them, gives them a nice, crunchy texture perfect for salads (hear that 2Long?). Kids love'm <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ October 21, 2002, 06:16 PM: Message edited by: TooMuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

Thanks 2long.

I guess my preoccupation with wondering how we can live as 2 individuals, not as me living for him and/or vice-versa is my fear that I will need to "live for him" so to speak to show that I value him, to make him feel appreciated (one of his ENs), and to make me attractive and worthwhile to have around (especially early on in recovery). Isn't this sort of a Plan A approach? I guess I need to go and reread what plan A is.

Also, I expect that since my H's original attitude was that he is perfect and I made all the mistakes, he will expect me to do all the work in recovery....and I'm really in no position to request that things are any different than that. I get the impression I'll just have to knock his socks off with a good Plan A to the point where he wants to put in some effort too...

Did the Harleys ever write anything about what a WS should do to win back a BS, that isn't a Plan A or Plan B approach?

You know, after all my impatience about reinitiating contact with my H, I am now beginning to feel somewhat nervous. What if I botch it, say the wrong thing, react the wrong way, or even LB? Can anyone recommend any threads with advice for what to say?

TMCM - You go right ahead and stir fry those worms. I'll stick to chicken or beef thanks!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
Jen

[darn spelling errors, can't type tonight!]

<small>[ October 21, 2002, 09:35 PM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

Jen:

"I guess my preoccupation with wondering how we can live as 2 individuals, not as me living for him and/or vice-versa is my fear that I will need to "live for him" so to speak to show that I value him, to make him feel appreciated (one of his ENs), and to make me attractive and worthwhile to have around (especially early on in recovery). Isn't this sort of a Plan A approach? I guess I need to go and reread what plan A is."

In my very humble opinion, you can accomplish ALL of these things when, and only when, you are content with yourself as a person capable of caring, loving, and being loved. Don't settle for anything less. You can only control yourself. You can't control your H. But if you're content with yourself, how can he see anything but an attractive W? I know, this is easier said than done, and our fears can often overcome us. They do me from time 2 time even now. But I keep them 2 myself UNTIL I can get them under control. I don't believe in hiding my fears forever.

"Also, I expect that since my H's original attitude was that he is perfect and I made all the mistakes, he will expect me to do all the work in recovery....and I'm really in no position to request that things are any different than that. I get the impression I'll just have to knock his socks off with a good Plan A to the point where he wants to put in some effort too..."

Why do you think this? Look, Jen, if your H hasn't done any growing during your time apart, and actually thinks you should do EVERYTHING 2 recover your M, he's going 2 fail, or at best be disappointed. You won't fail, because you've been learning. It'd be nice if you could "succeed" 2gether, but YOU will be a better person whatever happens. Remember that plan A is for YOU, not him. If the "new you" attracts him and evokes positive changes in him, then great, but don't feel like this is all on your shoulders. It isn't, no matter what you've "done."

"Did the Harleys ever write anything about what a WS should do to win back a BS, that isn't a Plan A or Plan B approach?"

I don't know. I never though much about it. Probably, though.

"You know, after all my impatience about reinitiating contact with my H, I am now beginning to feel somewhat nervous."

Understandable.

"What if I botch it, say the wrong thing, react the wrong way, or even LB?"

What if HE does all those things? Again, you can only control yourself, not him. That's his job. Just be prepared for blame-shifting or argument-baiting. Don't get drawn in2 a senseless argument.

"Can anyone recommend any threads with advice for what to say?"

They're probably all over. How about getting yourself a copy of Greg Baer's "The Truth About Relationships". It's been a big help 2 me.

"TMCM - You go right ahead and stir fry those worms. I'll stick to chicken or beef thanks!"

Oh... you said "beef". I thought you said BEER!

Beer. It's what's for dinner!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">TMCM - You go right ahead and stir fry those worms. I'll stick to chicken or beef thanks! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> Jen</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jen I know you're partial to chicken but the chicken doesn't want you to catch him, if you know what I mean. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Ok so I wasn't confused like I thought. Thanks for clearing that up Jen. That is why I posted how your H may be seeing things but I erased what I said because I thought I had it all wrong regarding the PA's/EA's.

Whew....I felt crazy yesterday. I thought I confused someone else's story with yours. Thanks for clearing that up.

Thanks for the note on my thread in Recovery. Thanks for understanding too. You know I have been through so much when I see someone else headed that path I almost want to protect them and warn them what they are up against but then I realize that I can't do that, everyone has to go through it, all I can do is offer support and hopefully answer a few questions from my point of view.

Have a good day everyone.
Zoey