OK, I admit I'm kinda down today, and trying to wrench myself out of it.

H is away for most of the weekend. H is performing tonight in a concert, and OW1 is a soloist in that concert. H went to first rehearsal for this concert last Friday night, and had rehearsal again last night, then rehearsal this afternoon and concert tonight - all in London. We live 1 1/2 hrs from London. His Sunday job is near London so he won't come home tonight - i know where he is spending the night - I trust that he will be there. That's not the problem.

This is the first contact he has had with OW1 since last year - she is 2 years older now - 1 month short of 19, and on scholarship to music academy - I am scared that this will revive contact, especially that she is now an "adult".

H recently got a new mobile phone and gave me his old one - he said he was not planning on putting a pin code on his new one, but I don't even know how to turn it on (I've tried) - it's a Nokia - little one. He made jokes about me "getting my mitts on it".

H came home from rehearsal last night as early as was possible - I also made sure to TXT msg him, so he had some contact with me in a way that he enjoys. I made him a special lunch today to take with him. Last night, I tried to make sure he would have some dinner before he left, and he appreciated that I tried, but got a take-away.
He kissed me as he left this morning. He seems happy. But I feel so insecure.

There has never been an apology from him - as you know from my other thread, he got physical again with me last week in an argument over how we handle money - my plan is to wait for the dust to settle - until end of next week, and then again try to get us into MC. But the upshot of it is that I am tired of trying. It has been almost 18 months since D-day no. 1 - June 2001 - and I have been trying since then to get us into couple counselling.

The signs are that he wants his family life, but I am not sure that he is still having his cake and eating it, too. I had a UT infection last month, and we haven't had sex for a month until a couple of nights ago when I bumped him in his sleep and he practically attacked me, being half-asleep. I am not sure that was a pleasant experience. I want to be loved, not f***ed, if you know what I mean. He has been kind and affectionate, but I have that nagging feeling that he isn't paying much attention to me anymore. I am not sure I am not just paranoid. It's like, if he's happy, I wonder why now - I just don't trust him. He refuses to be an open book, and until he is an open book, I don't feel safe.

I have talked to both my parents this week, and although my dad was helpful (he seems to have a degree in MB) - both of them, for the first time, we voicing their support for me finally giving this up and coming home. My mother says I need to start thinking about how much more time I want to waste on trying to make something work that isn't going to change. My father said he would give me the money to come home, and that losing his sons, even if only temporarily, may be what my H needs to wake him up. My mother says I should approach my dad and ask him for the money to fund the MA I want to get - that he is selling his house and should get a good price for it. My MA would only cost $3000.00 - the disturbances with my H over money are always disrupting my plans to talk to my H about how I am going to do this.

I feel kinda rough today. I think I will move over to the recovery board - perhaps I belong there, rather than here. I don't really know.

LIR

lir,
yes, you should if you still want to be married. Your case is normal when A is not ended properly, read the section on how A should end. Until both of you working on M, you are not in recovery and you have to be in plan A.

-rh-

Thanks for replying, Redhat -

I feel kind of lost right now. I have been posting and reading here since Feb this year - 7 months - a few people have tried to help,and really have made a difference in a big way for me - specifically Estes and still seeking. But mostly my posts seem to be overlooked. I guess it looks to most people that I am not "in crisis" which is why I wondered if I should go over to the Recovery board.

H did not end his EA the "MB way" - there have been no demonstrations to show that I should be able to trust him - he still keeps his e-mail acct private, and now he has a new cellphone which I don't know how to work. I gave up snooping on him in April when he got himself into counselling and have been waiting patiently for him to get somewhere there. But he has not shared with me anything that he has learned in counselling, he has not come to me wanting to talk about us, he has not offered any explanations. And since he has been violent when I have pushed too hard before, I am too afraid to approach him without a 3rd party present. I'm not saying I don't want to be married, I'm saying I don't know what else I can do, and I am giving up hope. I am so tired.

I TXT msgd him earlier today, and its 10pm here and he still has not answered. I know he had a dinner break between 5 and 7 - surely he checked his msgs and could have sent me one. See - I have expectations which are being disappointed. Harley says plan A should not become a way of life - if plan A does not separate the WS from the lover, then what? I don't think I should be the one to leave our children's home, but as it stands now, UNLESS I have proof of continuing contact with any OW, the burden is on me to leave if I am unhappy. I am unhappy - there is nothing going into my LB - not what I need anyway. Aren't I not entitled to be happy - I am tired of being bullied - and I don't know how to change things without just getting up and leaving. I am beginning to understand why some people just get up and go one day with no warning. You try and try and try to get their attention, but to no avail. They are just totally clueless.

I think my H is very juvenile and I'm tired of living with it. If I didn't have kids, I wouldn't be here now.

Do you think I should ask him if he is still in contact with OW1 and OW2? He always claimed they were "just friendships" - I think he will revert to this line if I ask him. I am also afraid to ask him. I am afraid it will blow up into another violent confrontation.

Maybe I should just narrow my goals down to one - getting him into a marriage counselling session. Should I just make the appointment myself and tell him we're going? That's what his own brother told me I should do. His own brother thinks I have been patient with him long enough. No-one can understand why he will not go to marriage counselling.

I am grateful for all the support given freely by still seeking - you are a wizard, ss at interpreting male-speak and I have a lot to learn here, but I don't think its just that. My H has to start to come clean. OW2 is coming back into town in Nov to collect her degree. The French friend who I don't like sent my H her daughter's phone no and I know my H has called her. I don't think my H has a right to a private life and private friendships with other women. I thought I had made this clear to him in April, but something is nagging at me. A little voice keeps telling me "he has forgotten you said that - he won't even remember that conversation - once the immediate danger of losing his family is past, he forgets everything I said." Can this be true?

I just feel I desperately need reassurance from him, but if I ask for it, I'm going to get kicked in the teeth. So why should I even be with someone I'm so afraid of, both physically and emotionally? It's hard to love someone you are so frightened of.

Today I am just feeling very lonely. I lived with a BF before I met my H. I didn't know it when I first got involved with him, but he was an alcoholic. It took me 3 years to extricate myself from that R. The feeling I have today is the same feeling I used to get when X was out on a binge. I am sitting here alone and I don't know where he is, or why I am sitting here alone - he sure isn't thinking about me, so why am I being faithful to him. Finally I turned my back on that BF - after we separated, he came to me and got down on his knees, put his head in my lap and cried for me to take him back. He humiliated himself that far for me, but I wouldn't do it, because I knew he would not stop drinking. He later lost his license. My SM ran into him on a building site about 5 years ago, by coincidence. She asked him if he was married now, and he said "No - LIR was enough." And walked away. I know he loved me - I know he loved me even though he drank, but there is no chance for a happy life with an alcoholic - its one miserable scene after another.

I look back on that - I thought my H was something different - talented, intelligent, morally principled, a devout Catholic - but my H seems to be someone who twists the rules to suit himself - and he has turned out to be incredibly selfish, probably because he is a performer by nature. Performers are notoriously difficult people to cope with and I guess my H is one of those. I just don't think I'm the right person for him. He isn't meeting my needs no matter how hard I try to meet his. So what am I supposed to do?

Maybe I am just feeling down and sorry for myself. That's always a possibility. Thanks for listening anyway.

LIR

<small>[ October 12, 2002, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

I called and left a msg on his voice mail on his mobile. It's 11:24 pm and still no call back and no TXT msg back. So am I in his thoughts? I don't think so.

LIR

Lady,

I'm sorry if you feel overlooked...if other posters are like me, we read your posts and just don't know what to say! I wish so badly I could pull super advice out of my butt, but you're situation is just nothing like what I've been through or even read about.

I can't remember, have you read passionate marriage? It sounds to me like you're coming to your crucible moment...where you lay it all on the line and say "look, I have no idea what your thoughts are or how this all feels to you, but I'm not happy and I'm not willing to live my life this way. I love you, but not more than I love myself. I want us to go in to counseling together and work together as a couple to repair our marriage, but if you aren't willing or ready to do that, then I am ready to be done with this. If we aren't in counseling by XX, then I will do the following......" No begging, crying, pleading, ordering, demanding, etc etc...just the facts.

If your marriage....and, lets face it, his comfort....are important enough to him, he'll realize it's time the rules suite everyone and not just him. If he's just a stubborn control freak...well, then you're better off without him.

Whatever you decide to do...I wish you happiness. You truly deserve it!!

Thank you for replying H4F,

I'm sorry if you feel overlooked...if other posters are like me, we read your posts and just don't know what to say! I wish so badly I could pull super advice out of my butt, but you're situation is just nothing like what I've been through or even read about.
Can that really be true? Is my situation really so different? Is it that bad? I am in weekly IC with an experienced counsellor, and she says I have a lot on my plate. I know that's true, but I
am not sure how different it is from anyone else who's H is having affairs.

I can't remember, have you read passionate marriage? It sounds to me like you're coming to your crucible moment...where you lay it all on the line and say "look, I have no idea what your thoughts are or how this all feels to you, but I'm not happy and I'm not willing to live my life this way. I love you, but not more than I love myself. I want us to go in to counseling together and work together as a couple to repair our marriage, but if you aren't willing or ready to do that, then I am ready to be done with this. If we aren't in counseling by XX, then I will do the following......" No begging, crying, pleading, ordering, demanding, etc etc...just the facts.
I haven't read Passionate Marriage - and I thought I had reached my crucible moment in April. I did all that and my H said "I'm going into IC because I'm the one with the problem. I waited while he started counselling and plan A'd like crazy. By August, i was also in IC, and we had talked about MC - he was agreeable and said we would come back to it after our summer holidays. The kids are now back in school and I am still in plan A, and now I am the only one in counselling, and for him its all hunky-dory again. Except that last week he lost his temper and tried to push me out the back door into the yard. The first thing I said to my counsellor in my first appointment is "here I am, but I am afraid that once I start, my H will quit". Here I am. I just have to get him into MC. I don't see any hope for us without it. And I guess that's why I'm down. I have run out of living on hope and crumbs.



If your marriage....and, lets face it, his comfort....are important enough to him, he'll realize it's time the rules suite everyone and not just him. If he's just a stubborn control freak...well, then you're better off without him.

Whatever you decide to do...I wish you happiness. You truly deserve it!!

Thank you - thanks for the kind words.
Will come back and update at some point. Would be glad if there were any others who had comments.

LIR

Lady, I live with an incredibly selfish man too, but he's one who has done a huge 180 degree turn around since breaking off his A. NOW he cares about what I think, whether it's money decisions, career decisions, etc. He still puts himself above the kids, which I'm not crazy about, but at least now I have a voice in things, and he IS doing better with the kids. My H has never been physically abusive, and I don't think he's emotionally abusive either, although an A is a terrible emotional assault on the BS. I will not tolerate physical abuse. I have a hard time understanding how women put up with it, but I know they do all of the time. And when it's over, they blame themselves for "pushing" their H's to far. Yes there are some women who can't back off when they are arguing. They insist on going in for the kill. If that describes you, then counseling is where you need to be to help you through this relationship or with any future relationships. However, if your H is abusive out of habit, out of uncontrollable anger/frustration, etc. then he clearly has a problem that YOU can not solve!! Marriage is not about power and abuse. I hate to encourage you to get out, but even marriage builders has a Plan B. Why? Because some people are so self-centered that they will take all of the Plan A you can give them, and demand/expect more. I think you have given your man plenty of time to move from Plan A to recovery. Your bank is empty.

Move to Plan B. And be proud of the supportive family you have. Don't antagonize them. They are worried sick about you and want what's best for you and your children. Sometimes outside eyes looking in ARE the best source of advice. I don't know you or your H, but your parents do. If they are supporting seperation for the first time in your ordeal, they are probably giving you VERY sound and educated advice.

OOps, double post.

<small>[ October 13, 2002, 01:55 AM: Message edited by: jamup ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lady_In_Red:
<strong>.... And since he has been violent when I have pushed too hard before, I am too afraid to approach him without a 3rd party present. I'm not saying I don't want to be married, I'm saying I don't know what else I can do, and I am giving up hope. I am so tired.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>
This is a problem when A is not ended properly. Now I am sorry I have to say this ... the probability of contact and renew A are very high. I could understand that you are soo tired. This is one of the reason that you have to think of plan B before your LB$ is completely bunkrupt. The other reason is as jamup pointed out, there is no place of abuse in M ... you will never have fullfiling M.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>See - I have expectations which are being disappointed. Harley says plan A should not become a way of life - if plan A does not separate the WS from the lover, then what? ... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>
You 've anwsered your own question. PLAN B . Stick w/ plan A while you are figuring out how to do plan B. Logistic of plan B & plan B letter ... and WH the one has to go. If he is violent man you should put RO against him. When you are ready post again.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Maybe I am just feeling down and sorry for myself. That's always a possibility. Thanks for listening anyway.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LIR, we have shoulder to lend for other to cry and lean on. We are her to give support to each other. Yes you are down and yes you are sorry but IT IS NOT YOUR FAULT AND YOU COULD CHANGE IT. Check the link on enablement under my sig ...

-RH-

quick question, when was the last time your H was in counseling?? Have you approached him about IC for himself, alone, with your IC, to "help yourself"?? Perhaps, this would then lead to MCing?

MY WH is finally counseling with an IC, but it took his own will, I still have no idea what they discuss, or what is going on, but seems to "act" a little kinder.

gc - my H willingly went to IC starting in April - he went quite regularly until mid-August. I didn't ask him what went on in his sessions - I think it is the one place where he really is entitled to full privacy. But neither did he ever volunteer any information. I started IC in June. I felt I needed to give him time to get "stuck in" - I needed to see him make a commitment to it - the only questions I asked were related to when he was going and what his plans were. By mid-Aug, my counselor helped me word a request to him for MC which was non-confrontational - very much along the "this would be advantageous for both of us at this time and would be helpful for me..." as you suggested. His reaction then was not hostile and I know for a fact that he got the phone numbers for Marriage Care (Catholic Marriage Counselling Service) in our area. He said we would see about it when Sept came, after our summer visits. Sept has come and gone, and I have asked him twice now about his own IC. He says that his counselor went into hospital for an operation - that was in August - he still hasn't called. When I asked him again last week, he said he didn't think he was interested in any more counselling, or in marriage counselling any more. That, for me, was the main reason why I finally lost it and what started out as a conversation ended up in a full-blown row that ended with him getting physical (pushing and shoving - he has never hit me). I didn't realize that he, at that time (last week) was very worried about losing his job, and was hiding this worry from me, so he was very tense and hiding this from me. So it was unfortunate timing, but not my fault.

I don't blame myself for his angry behaviour. But it is true that I find it hard to walk away and that I end up saying what I have to say in a very brutal way. The point was made that "if you are the type that goes in for the kill" then you also have a problem. This is a valid point. I wouldn't say that I am the type who goes for the jugular - I do not intentionally belittle or humiliate my H, or deliberately say unkind things to him. Its just that I say the truth - and the truth is worse than any deliberate attempt to hurt him. He can't stand hearing the truth. It's this that I have to address in myself. Because I have read cerri's advice to A/C018 on her thread, and I quite clearly "LB" when I do this. On that occasion last week, I LB'd big-time. I was demanding and made judgements. I threatened also - I said "You change or I leave." I was angry and nasty when I said it. I may be right and have every right to my feelings, but I lost my control and did not put things in a non-LB'ing way. I'm not excusing him his aggressive behaviour, or justifying what he is actually doing. But it is fair to say, that by MB principles, there was LB'ing on my part as well as his. It was fair for both of us to apologize and we did.

I think I am feeling the fallout from that - and that experience I have to find a way to put it to him that it proves we need MC, since he said he doesn't see why we can't talk these things out "on our own". Maybe its a good thing it happened - IF it finally gets us into MC together.

I guess my anxiety this weekend is brought about him being in such close contact with OW1. The anxiety nearly drives me nuts. I am wondering if I should ask him the questions I need to ask - did you talk to OW1 at all? did you talk to her alone at all? If you talked, what did you talk about? Do you intend to continue contact with her? Do you talk by cellphone or TXT msg? If so, why? If so, are you aware that this hurts me enormously, given that you already admitted that you had feelings for her, and that you have already apologized for hurting me for what you started with her - so why continue? I want to ask all these questions, but I don't want to LB if there is any chance of us getting into MC.

I just got home at 3pm (I went to church and then to my friend's baby's baptism and party afterwards. I was determined to be cheerful and pretend that I was on my own and not talk about my problems.) When I got home, there were 2 msgs on the answer phone. One he had called in the morning after I left, then he called again at 2 pm. He says he will call back. He thanked me for my 2 msgs which I left last night - he said he got them late. He was amused by my TXT msg. He sounded kind and affectionate and warm - not distant.

So you can see that I am very confused. When I hear his voice like that, I think we still have a chance and I am just imagining things. Redhat - are you saying that since I don't have the answers to these questions around the issue of NC, the anxiety of being in the dark is driving me nuts? But IF contact is continuing and it turns out he is being a cake-eater, then it has to be plan B, because I am tired of being bounced around like a yo-yo.

I have been taking a good long look at my house this weekend and trying to decide what I could live without - most of it really! But the fairest thing for the children would be for him to move out. I have proved that I can live on the amount of money he puts into our joint bank account every month, which is only part of his income. I think it would be fair to expect that he continue contributing that, and that he should be expected to live on the rest of his income, which he shelters from me anyway. I have no idea how much that is - not a lot, but I think he would squeak by.

What I would have to do is file a move for legal separation, and I could also get a "non-molestation order" against him, even if he is still living here, so that if he got physical with me, he would be breaking the law. He would be anyway, but it is more powerful with a NMO.

Thank you for helping - I really appreciate it.

LIR

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lady_In_Red:
<strong>So you can see that I am very confused. When I hear his voice like that, I think we still have a chance and I am just imagining things. Redhat - are you saying that since I don't have the answers to these questions around the issue of NC, the anxiety of being in the dark is driving me nuts? But IF contact is continuing and it turns out he is being a cake-eater, then it has to be plan B, because I am tired of being bounced around like a yo-yo.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This the coaster ride ... when are on ups and nice to you then on down and nasty to you ... also true to OW, it just the opposite. Finish up your plan A very strong while you draft up your plan B letter. Make sure WH undesrtood that you have to do this 'cause to protect yourself and your love for him. There is no place for secrecy in M, yes, any issues/secret w/ no answer is very bad. IMVHO, learn how to talk R w/o involving your emotion. It is very hard but you could do it ... talk like you do business transaction. Remember how to walk away ... read on how to negotiate @ MB site. Don't file Dv or separation ! it is the last resort if WH is getting nasty & consult w/ lawyer about it, even getting it ready to file at will. Work on logistic, e.g. $ proposal to your H and get court order if you have to but try to reason w/ WH and visitation time/day/place to pick up/drop off.

It is your choice to go to plan B, sit & think about it hard. If you have energy left and think that you could do it ... stay in plan A. Learn how not to LB ... you need it for any relationship in the future, think your H like a personal R training partner. Understood that you have to let go and put a blinder on all the stuff that he did while you "fix" all the issues that he has on you in this M. Then if there is no impact, implement plan B right away.

God Bless you and may the Lord guides you and gives you wisdom to see HIS PATH FOR YOU. Amen -RH-

I think the main difference I see in your situation vs what I'm used to dealing with is the drama issue. You're somewhat in recovery, kind of dealing with the day to day. It's not as dramatic, ,but certainly as stressful.

It does sound like you're making progress. It's slow, but maybe the lack of drama is a big reason for that. Atleast where I'm concerned I know I tend to work harder towards progress and change when there's more motivation to do so. When things are comfy, H and I tend to get lazy. Even though we'd probably be comfier in the long run we just don't put forth the effort and deal with whatever small discomfort there might be in the interim.

I don't think it's fair for your H to be calling the shots on whether or not MC would be adventageous. If he's interested in remaining married he ought to understand you get a say in that too. Whether he feels he needs it or not is hardly the point. It's MARITAL counseling...he needs to go for you.

Redhats probably on to something about how the A hasn't really ended properly. It very well may be hindering your progress. Another thing that may be slowing everything up is your hectic schedule. I know that H and I would love to work more on rekindling romance and passion into our marriage...but our current schedule is draining. We do what we can to keep things going, but we just don't have the time to devote to make the sparks fly right now. Maintaining a marriage takes time, but FIXING a marriage takes even more time. If things aren't great and you don't have the time to work together to make it great...things will either carry on like they are or get worse.

And...if he continues to work as an independant and expecting you to follow along....add drama. Sometimes stirring everything up makes it impossible to avoid dealing with it.

Hello LIR

I really don't have many words of advice, but wanted to send you some support and positive vibes from rainy London. You have at my worst moments popped up and helped me, so I wanted you to know that I am thinking of you too.

Whilst I have read and followed most of your posts, what concerns me is that you don't express yourself with your H because of the potential violent outbursts. I think this in itself must make life incredibly difficult for you - you can't even speak out with what's on your mind because of the fear.

Whether or not your H would re-start his A, I sense is almost secondary. If you had firm commitment from him to your M, IC or MC, and the ability to communicate openly and honestly without fear, you would of course feel reassured that your M is moving forward. Without that, I can understand that the stress and worry of him being in contact with OW1 and soon OW2 must be completely overwhelming. I'm sure even if you had that commitment it would be awful.

I am sorry your weekend has been so worrying for you. What should you do now? I really don't know, but remember there are people out here thinking of you and wishing you well.

Take care and be strong.

Lisa

OK - more news -

first - thank you LIL for checking in with me - sometimes it just helps knowing someone is out there listening.

and redhat - I'm listening, too - I have been putting on the back burner preparing for plan B because I want so much for this to work out, but I think it would be wise to prepare and get it all thought out - that will take a little time, but I can do it.

What happened today is - I decided to call the MC myself. I know he got the numbers for Marriage Care, which is the "official" Catholic MC service. My H is a very devout (?) Catholic and has refused to go to any counselling service that is not specifically Christian. So I decided I would call them and stop waiting for him. So I called this afternoon - they took all our details and said they would put us on their waiting list - she couldn't say how long we would have to wait - hopefully no more than 6 weeks. I planned to propose this to him soon and printed off the info from their website.

H came home at 4 - had a cup of tea and biscuit and had to teach a lesson 4/30 - 5pm -he was very cheerful when he got home - while he was teaching, Marriage Care called back! He gave me the phone - he had answered it - she didn't tell him it was Marriage Care. She said they have had a cancellation for Thurs at 8pm this week! We have until 11am tomorrow to let them know if we want the appointment - otherwise we may have to wait weeks. Is God trying to tell us something?! Looks like it to me!!

So after his lesson was over, I went into his teaching room and asked if I could have a minute. I said that that had been Marriage Care on the phone - that I had called them to see if they had any appointments and that they had said it could take a couple of weeks, but that they had had an unexpected cancellation, so we could come on Thurs eve, "if we decided that was what we wanted to do." That's how I put it. It took him by surprise and he looked instantly solemn and uncomfortable, but not angry. I explained that it was the "official" CS for the Catholic Church and that it was FREE! The service is registered with the British Counsellors Assoc (I think - its all on the website) - and that the sessions are "open-ended" - we have to go and "just see if we like the person" - then if we decide to do it, the time period is open-ended. I ran upstairs and brought down the stuff I got off the web and set it down on the piano bench next to him. I told him he might like to read this. Anyway, he could think about it and let me know. I skedaddled back to the kitchen to finish dinner. Last night I made a roast chicken dinner (his favourite) which he missed bcos he went to see his brother. Tonight I made roast lamb "because you missed last nights dinner" - I want him to want to come home and he LOVES my cooking.

While I was cooking, I heard him go upstairs to the computer. From the log, it looks like he spent 20 minutes online - of course, I don't know who he was talking to, but I am hoping it is one of the priests he knows that he has confided in - the one who has been encouraging him to go to MC since FEBRUARY! Anyway, he came down to dinner - his mood is what I would call "quiet" - he looks somewhat stressed I would say. I was cheerful and upbeat, but not overboard.

I kissed him goodbye when he went out to his rehearsal tonight and said I was up for a game of backgammon tonight if he was game when he got home - trying to let him know I look forward to him coming back soon after - not staying out late.

I think I did really well. /////myself. I was totally non-confrontational - I kept reminding myself of Redhats advice to NOT be emotional at all. I am letting him decide.

BUT - it will be jolly difficult for him to refuse - its free, they're qualified, they're available, and they're CATHOLIC! He doesn't like the idea of driving to Chatham - so how far would YOU drive to save your marriage? Would you drive all the way to Dover? Or would you only go as far as Bracknell? I mean, COME ON - I'm thinking - how FAR would you go?!

What am I going to do if he says no? I don't even want to ASK myself this?!!

So I'm waiting here for the next few hours, guys - NOW is the time to pray for me, if there is anyone out there tonight!

I don't know where I'd be without this forum - how have I managed? Because I feel like I am not alone here!!!!

Thanks everyone!
LIR

Dear LIR
I must say i admire your typing skills I am a one finger slow lane typist myself so it doesnt come easy to go into great detail .

I too have followed your story with interest i can see many similarities ibetween your situation and mine although I am 20 yrs further down the track than you are.

You inspired me to write for the following reason.Your h sounds very similar to mine .They both seem attracted to exactly the same type of females .When my my children were the same age as yours my h had me to do the domestic work and to relieve his anger when things went badly,his mother who encouraged him with constant praise and ow who was young beautiful and goggling with admiration for his professional status and he managed to keep it all together for six years the first time and ten the second without me finding out.

You are where I was at that point the main difference being that you have the information that I didnt to wit the probable existence of ow (s) in retrospect I say to myself if the existence of the ow had been known to me I would have left.

I had learnt to cope with the bullying but infidelity would have been the last sraw,.By the way the only thing that stopped the physical violence was my threat to call the local police it stopped immediately after that. Set a bully to catch a bully--he was afraid of losing his Mr Nice Guy public image.

I have identified the problem as a destructive relationship based on my hs narcissistic personality problem.(never underestimate the ego of a lawyer) the characteristics of which I have found out and are as follows

My h ftried to blame me for every thing that went wrong.Our marriage had been fraught with vitriolic rows usually about nothing. He would come home from work and within ten seconds of coming through the door would have found some reason to take violent exception to something that was not to his liking. untidiness,toys on the floor,dinner not ready there was plenty to choose from.I was often tired and dispirited so i gave as good as I got .His childish tantrums I took to be some sort of excuse to take out the days work frustrations on someone else .

I lost respect for him and resigned myself to the fact that I was catering to three children the biggest baby being my h.I did not realise that far from being a harmless baby he had all the attributes of a cunning wilful and vindictive adolescent.a fully paid up bully and I was a fully paid up victim.

The rows continued year after year until they became ingrained into our relationship the children grew up in a household fraught with tension They have both told me that they were glad to leave home to get away from the atmosphere

Having searched for as much detail as I could gather, I then began to consider the personalities involved.In an earlier diatribe addressed to O/W (and never sent)I had used the word NARCISSISTIC.I thought I would check its meaning on the internet and to my surprise i found not just a dictionary quotation but a vast body of work devoted to its definition in terms of a fully developed personality disorder .The characteristics describe the attitudes of most W/S.You could basically say that it is what used to be called a spoilt child the official list of symptoms are

1 A sense of self importance
2 Has no empathy for the feelings of others
3 Preoccupied with the aquisition of power
4 Requires unlimited attention and admiration
5 A sense of entitlement
6 Is interpersonally exploitative
7 BeIleve themselves to be special and are envious of the success of others
9 Often arrogant

The cause of the problem can be either too much love and attention as children or too little.Being brought up by one or more narcissistic parents doesnt help either.

They have fragile self esteem, are emotionally immature and spend a great deal of their lives creating situations where they can be the centre of attention.It maybe that the need for attention is inversely proportional to emotional maturity ,therefore anyone indulging in attention seeking behaviour is telling you how emotionally immature they are

A narcissist has difficulty in recognizing the needs and feelings of others and is dismissive contemptuous and impatient when others try to share or discuss their concerns or problems.They are also oblivious to the hurtfulness of their behaviour,show emotional coldness ,exhibit envy when others receive recognition and are are quick to blame others when their needs and expectations are not met

At the same time the n feeds on popularity and can be very charming especially to people who can be useful thus the Jekyll and Hyde nature The street angel and the house devil

They have only one script ,their life is a movie they are the star and everyone else is cast in a supporting role .Needless to say keeping this kind of show on the road is highly stressful .Someone has to take responsibility for keeping reality at bay .

This role is mainly assigned to the nearest and dearest who are expected to absorb their unwanted negative emotions.So whenever the narcissist is upset they he can transfer all those feelings to someone else causing someone else to be more angry and upset than he is.This temporarily gives a sense of power and relief .

The W/S is meeting his narcissistic needs by having an affair it enables him to run away from adult responsibilty and re experience all the highs of being a teenager.To be really comfortable Rupert Bear needs a home to go to at the end of his adventures .It is the role of the B/S to provide a safe haven and to take care of all the dreary responsibilities of real life.

Did you ever see Rupert cleaning the toilet or doing the shopping?

An affair can truly be called a conceit. it is the ultimate attention seekers dream come true especially when two narcissistic people are locked in isolation mutually admiring one another. Each is mirroring the other as they search endlessly for perfection.A narcissist has no concept of himself and can only see himself through the eyes of another.He is an actor who never leaves the stage and is completely reliant on the approval of others for his own sense of self worth.

I am sure that by now you would have recognized someone that you know The existence of this phenomenon has been recognized as the ME generation

There is something of the narcissist in all of us but some have the insight to appreciate that this behaviour is self defeating it is hard to find another person who will love you as much as you love yourself.

The question that many of us have to answer is how to deal with behaviour which accords no respect for others .Having an affair shows no respect for the marriage partner who is betrayed ,no respect for the OW because it offers no commitment and no self respect for the perpetrator.

The cause of behaviour I have read can be gauged by the reaction of the recipient ,if you feel irritated the behaviour is attention seeking , if you feel angry then the behaviour is power seeking and if you feel hurt then the motive is revenge .

There is no doubt that all b/s feel devastated .Does this mean that the motivation behind an a is revenge and the w/s shows all the characteristics of a bully who is punishing the b/s for not meeting his unrealistic needs?

I would be interested in your comments

IF THIS IS THHE TRUTH THEN HOW BEST TO DEAL WITH IT?

Dear LIR
I must say i admire your typing skills I am a one finger slow lane typist myself so it doesnt come easy to go into great detail .

I too have followed your story with interest i can see many similarities ibetween your situation and mine although I am 20 yrs further down the track than you are.

You inspired me to write for the following reason.Your h sounds very similar to mine .They both seem attracted to exactly the same type of females .When my my children were the same age as yours my h had me to do the domestic work and to relieve his anger when things went badly,his mother who encouraged him with constant praise and ow who was young beautiful and goggling with admiration for his professional status and he managed to keep it all together for six years the first time and ten the second without me finding out.

You are where I was at that point the main difference being that you have the information that I didnt to wit the probable existence of ow (s) in retrospect I say to myself if the existence of the ow had been known to me I would have left.

I had learnt to cope with the bullying but infidelity would have been the last sraw,.By the way the only thing that stopped the physical violence was my threat to call the local police it stopped immediately after that. Set a bully to catch a bully--he was afraid of losing his Mr Nice Guy public image.

I have identified the problem as a destructive relationship based on my hs narcissistic personality problem.(never underestimate the ego of a lawyer) the characteristics of which I have found out and are as follows

My h ftried to blame me for every thing that went wrong.Our marriage had been fraught with vitriolic rows usually about nothing. He would come home from work and within ten seconds of coming through the door would have found some reason to take violent exception to something that was not to his liking. untidiness,toys on the floor,dinner not ready there was plenty to choose from.I was often tired and dispirited so i gave as good as I got .His childish tantrums I took to be some sort of excuse to take out the days work frustrations on someone else .

I lost respect for him and resigned myself to the fact that I was catering to three children the biggest baby being my h.I did not realise that far from being a harmless baby he had all the attributes of a cunning wilful and vindictive adolescent.a fully paid up bully and I was a fully paid up victim.

The rows continued year after year until they became ingrained into our relationship the children grew up in a household fraught with tension They have both told me that they were glad to leave home to get away from the atmosphere

Having searched for as much detail as I could gather, I then began to consider the personalities involved.In an earlier diatribe addressed to O/W (and never sent)I had used the word NARCISSISTIC.I thought I would check its meaning on the internet and to my surprise i found not just a dictionary quotation but a vast body of work devoted to its definition in terms of a fully developed personality disorder .The characteristics describe the attitudes of most W/S.You could basically say that it is what used to be called a spoilt child the official list of symptoms are

1 A sense of self importance
2 Has no empathy for the feelings of others
3 Preoccupied with the aquisition of power
4 Requires unlimited attention and admiration
5 A sense of entitlement
6 Is interpersonally exploitative
7 BeIleve themselves to be special and are envious of the success of others
9 Often arrogant

The cause of the problem can be either too much love and attention as children or too little.Being brought up by one or more narcissistic parents doesnt help either.

They have fragile self esteem, are emotionally immature and spend a great deal of their lives creating situations where they can be the centre of attention.It maybe that the need for attention is inversely proportional to emotional maturity ,therefore anyone indulging in attention seeking behaviour is telling you how emotionally immature they are

A narcissist has difficulty in recognizing the needs and feelings of others and is dismissive contemptuous and impatient when others try to share or discuss their concerns or problems.They are also oblivious to the hurtfulness of their behaviour,show emotional coldness ,exhibit envy when others receive recognition and are are quick to blame others when their needs and expectations are not met

At the same time the n feeds on popularity and can be very charming especially to people who can be useful thus the Jekyll and Hyde nature The street angel and the house devil

They have only one script ,their life is a movie they are the star and everyone else is cast in a supporting role .Needless to say keeping this kind of show on the road is highly stressful .Someone has to take responsibility for keeping reality at bay .

This role is mainly assigned to the nearest and dearest who are expected to absorb their unwanted negative emotions.So whenever the narcissist is upset they he can transfer all those feelings to someone else causing someone else to be more angry and upset than he is.This temporarily gives a sense of power and relief .

The W/S is meeting his narcissistic needs by having an affair it enables him to run away from adult responsibilty and re experience all the highs of being a teenager.To be really comfortable Rupert Bear needs a home to go to at the end of his adventures .It is the role of the B/S to provide a safe haven and to take care of all the dreary responsibilities of real life.

Did you ever see Rupert cleaning the toilet or doing the shopping?

An affair can truly be called a conceit. it is the ultimate attention seekers dream come true especially when two narcissistic people are locked in isolation mutually admiring one another. Each is mirroring the other as they search endlessly for perfection.A narcissist has no concept of himself and can only see himself through the eyes of another.He is an actor who never leaves the stage and is completely reliant on the approval of others for his own sense of self worth.

I am sure that by now you would have recognized someone that you know The existence of this phenomenon has been recognized as the ME generation

There is something of the narcissist in all of us but some have the insight to appreciate that this behaviour is self defeating it is hard to find another person who will love you as much as you love yourself.

The question that many of us have to answer is how to deal with behaviour which accords no respect for others .Having an affair shows no respect for the marriage partner who is betrayed ,no respect for the OW because it offers no commitment and no self respect for the perpetrator.

The cause of behaviour I have read can be gauged by the reaction of the recipient ,if you feel irritated the behaviour is attention seeking , if you feel angry then the behaviour is power seeking and if you feel hurt then the motive is revenge .

There is no doubt that all b/s feel devastated .Does this mean that the motivation behind an a is revenge and the w/s shows all the characteristics of a bully who is punishing the b/s for not meeting his unrealistic needs?

I would be interested in your comments

IF THIS IS THHE TRUTH THEN HOW BEST TO DEAL WITH IT?

OK, I can't take any time bcos I am at work and there is a computer technician here - just to say that he said yes, but he is VERY grumpy about it!

Still, he kissed me goodbye this morning. Will update when I can - thank you HCO - I will get back to you!

LIR

Hi LIR,
I have been away, and you have been busy.

I think this is going where it needs to go. I suggest you reinforce to him (now, not after the first session) that he made the right choice to go with you. Tell him "thank you for being willing to go with me, it means a lot to me that you are willing to help me this way." Smile and hug him, it will make him feel better about it if he has reservations.

And it does help you, it may just mean that you don't have to divorce him, and that is a really big help.

I need to re-read this thread a couple of times (my mind works pretty slow some days) and come back tomorrow. See ya later.

SS

<small>[ October 16, 2002, 06:21 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

What kind of phone does your H have? Is it a Nokia 3390? What model number? Maybe someone here can figure it out for you.
Who gets/pays the phone bill for the cell phone? Do you think you could establish an online account that you would have access to?

I think also you might want to look into a computer spy program. If you could install it on his computer it could send you reports. For example, www.spectorsoft.com

I think you need to know what he's up to. The info will help you decide what direction to go in.

You are not in recovery because your H hasn't done what it takes. Being honest with you about what happened, expressing remorse, recommitting to the marriage, committing to marriage counselling....

also any kind of physical violence- even pushing and shoving- is clearly unacceptable. That's a problem that needs to be worked on.

Why did your H get a new cell phone?

I think you should consider letting your H know of your concerns, while avoiding LBs. Try to stay calm, maybe write him a letter. Say you are worried that your marriage won't survive because of the lack of honesty. YOu are giving him a warning that your M is in danger. But remember, don't demand. Just share your feelings "I feel disheartened and concerned..."

The fact that your H shelters income also to me is untenable. Assets acquired during marriage should be joint assets. You might want to consult a lawyer on this. Is he spending marital assets on his affairs? Do you have kids?

As far as the appointment goes, I think you should just take the appointment. go alone if you have to (you can tell the counsellor that your H flaked out at the last minute and get advice on getting him to come) He'll have some nerve not accompanying you because he has already agreed to do it. It forces him to take a stand on whether he will work on the M or not.