Hi J,

WOW !!

I am glad that you are not hurt. I have pulled a trailer often, and have gone off the road once myself because of the sway. I had my W and all my children with me and was fearful I had killed us all, but we were unharmed. In our case the vehicle and trailer were also unharmed. I think I shook for quite some time after we came to rest. We were in northern Arizona on the Navaho Indian reservation at the time, miles from anyone or anything.

So many questions come to mind. Where the boys with you? Was it just yourself and T? Did someone come to get you? What happened to the items in the trailer? What did T say after it was all over? How are you feeling inside after all the events are finished and you are back home again?

Do you feel the experience with H (the discussion) was positive or negative? What do you plan to do now?
I know ( or at least I have strong feelings) that you had many other ideas of what to try with T while you spent time with him. Do you have other comments about any of these other things ? Do you ever wish you could wack Still Seeking and get him to quit asking questions?

I don't have much advice for you (again) but still lend my support and prayers. When I pray for you lately, I get a very positive feeling. It leads me to believe you are doing well and are going to be happy.
I can't help but think that with everything you have been through, and all the suggestions you have gotten that you are doing things exactly right, and making the best choices. I feel very positive right now as I compose this message, more than normal.

It is very good to see you home safe after such an eventful week.

SS

Hi SS
Where the boys with you? Was it just yourself and T?
Yes the boys were with us and the dog. But all were unhurt though frightened
Did someone come to get you? What happened to the items in the trailer? The police and an ambulence came out as we were blocking the motorway and took me and youngest 2 to hospital just as a precaution to be checked. The recovery truck then removed car and trailer from motorway and towed the trailer to my house. Most items seemed to have survivied.
Do you feel the experience with H (the discussion) was positive or negative? What do you plan to do now?
Some elements were positive and some negative. He said he thought I only wanted him for what he could give me and the status he could offer, I pointed out how erroneous that thought was and offered to support and help him out of his present debt problems. However I think his pride will prevent him taking me up on that. For the time being I am willing to wait again. One thing that did happen during the week, my friends in the church ( elder and his wife) visited and made it clear that they saw no hope for my marriage. As such i believe it is right not to move back there- I have the support of my present church in standing for my marriage.

I felt at times like being more physical in my responses to H but when I was about to act on them he received phone calls from OW so I never did!!
Well I 'll wait and see how the next few weeks go. And no I never feel like whacking you for your questions!!
Jante

Hi folks, interesting thought. After months of him not contacting me from one visit to the next, last week he phoned most days with business over our sale of the old home. Both yesterday and today he has rung to make sure we are all ok after sundays events. He then has gone on to tell me how stressed his life is how he needs a break etc. Is this because OW isn't providing a sympathetice ear or because I've always been his best friend and the habit is proving hard to break! His job will definitely end o Friday and he plans to take at least a couple of weeks break.
Jante

Hello J,
I have tried to give a little space for others but after it goes to the 2nd page I figure I may as well post.

I continue to feel positive about your situation. I hope D is doing well. I was thinking this scare with the trailer could help him to do better but the thought comes that it could set him off too.
I hope it put the fear of God into him. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
Or at least the fear of his Mum. Ah, well, hummm, perhpas I had better move on to something else.

I wonder if the two weeks will give H time to finally make some good choices. I hope it will.

Well, I am sitting here listening to John Denver sing and it takes me back over the years to all the happy things that have happened to me, and the good times I have had and it occurs to me to encourage you. I believe you will yet have many happy times in your life and that you will once again share love with a spouse that cares for you and will treat you as you ought to be treated. I really believe there will be a happy future for you - I am sure of it.

SS

<small>[ October 30, 2002, 12:04 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Thanks SS its nice to know someone reads and cares enough to respond- I'm never sure what it is i do wrong that leavers me isolated like this but my posts are obviously not interesting/trau,matic enough to meriit replies from others. Yours are very much appreciated!!!
D was better for 24 hours after the event but I am concerned about tomorrow wvening. It was our battle over halloween trick or treat last year that led me to being signed off sick for 2 months. I hate the hype, the begging trouble making aspect and the occultism but he wants to go out with his friends. So far he mentioned it in passing last week but hasn't said anything this week.

H continues to chat to me more than ever before but no other comments or signs he may be rethinking his future. He is still pursuing jobs 150 miles away . A said today that he expected it would get to stage where dad rarely visited as he no longer visits mid week. I told him I didn't think it would come to that but I do undestand his concerns.

Well back to the calm waiting game. Not sure if it impresses T or he thinks i no longer care.
Jante

We ( mostly me) thought about Halloween when the children were still young. We set the rule that they could go out until they were 12 and then it was over for them. The older ones can take the younger ones for safety but they can't dress up or anything else. If they wish, they can have a party at our home and invite friends (they often do.) We encourage fun, but we like to have a little control. We provide ice cream and other things if they wish to party at home ( to try and make it inviting for them.) I made a fire pit in the back yard out of an old barrel half and they sit and tell stories and roast marshmallows on the fire - and most important - they stay out of trouble. The boys tend to play computer games but we figure that is better than many things they could be doing.

H continues to chat to me more than ever before but no other comments or signs he may be rethinking his future. He is still pursuing jobs 150 miles away.
That .........well, that is not what I hoped, and you may have even stronger words about it. God is giving him so many chances, and so are you, I just wish he would respond correctly.

A said today that he expected it would get to stage where dad rarely visited as he no longer visits mid week. I told him I didn't think it would come to that but I do understand his concerns.
If things do not change, I believe A is right.

Amanda asked me last week ( from out of the blue) if "A's dad has come home yet." In the beginning, I told her a little of what was going on for background information. I answered and she said " that is to bad, I hope he does."

Well back to the calm waiting game. Not sure if it impresses T or he thinks i no longer care
Perhaps think about a follow up letter to go with what you said to him at Levan.

I sometimes write to my W even though we live together and speak daily. It gives me a way to say things exactly the way I want them said with no chance of saying the wrong thing. ( I often say the wrong thing, or perhaps the right thing the wrong way.)

Here are some more ideas to get you to think, or to laugh about - whichever works best for you.

Hey T, if you'll forgive me for the bad feelings I caused over Levan and all that, I'll forgive you for leaving. Just come home and we'll work it all out.
I make it sound easy and I know it would not be, but I still think it could work and would be best for both of us, and the boys.

Dear T, since we are already married and know each other so well, why don't we consider getting back together and having another go at things. ( please don't laugh when you read this, I am serious) Think about it some, and get back to me about it.

Dear T, I have developed a liking for car accidents but I can't afford that many on my own. If you would consider coming home, I would agree to cause much less damage the next time around.

Actually J, I believe you could come up with something really good if you thought a letter was a good idea.

I'll leave you now, and if you think my humor is a little off, so do all my children and my W. I'm still sorry about that long wardrobe joke in three stages, I'll try to do better next time.

SS

Hi folks- well s walked/ran out without permission to go out trick or treating with friends after he had told me he was going cycling with them. Have rung H to discuss calmly with him the est way to deal with son when he returns. H happy to help and gave a very good suggestion so now I'll impement when son returns.
H also told me had got three interviews for jobs next week- all in London! However I don't know why I feel so depressed by that thought its only what he said he planned to do. Interesting to see if he gets one of them!!
Jante

So what did you you do with D when he came home?

We have son missing that was supposed to be home at 10. (now after 11) I can see I need to do something about that. It's funny that as a Leader for the Boy scouts I never had a bad disipline problem in 17 years but it is hard to know how to deal with your own children. You are not the only one. W and I will have to discuss it and see what we can come up with. They (sons) do it to themselves then complain about the result. Sometimes I laugh when he starts complaining about the restrictions he gets after he does this. It makes him mad, but that's his problem. (not that I bait him, it's just that it seems so funny to me to see him complain about consequences that he creates.)

I am sorry that T is looking so far away, I hope he comes around soon. I suppose I had better pray some more to back up that hope.

J, I believe you are on the right track, I really do. It still doesn't make sense some times when I think about it, but if feels right.

I saw a thread sometime in the last few weeks about why some threads get big responses, and some do not, but I can't find it to link to it for you. I have searched for about an hour but must not be using the right key words.

Well, S just walked in, so I will go to bed. Will have discussion tomorrow with him. Tonight I am so tired, I would not be able to think and say things correctly.
I can't remember when you go to your next big out of town reunion ( or meeting or party or whatever you call it.) Sometime in the next little while. I hope it is relaxing and fun for you.

SS

Hi folks.
SS

So what did you you do with D when he came home?
Had a talk with D about what he had done and what my views were then told him he had to share what he got from Trick or Treat with his brothers.

I saw a thread sometime in the last few weeks about why some threads get big responses, and some do not, but I can't find it to link to it for you. I have searched for about an hour but must not be using the right key words.
I did wonder if it was because I was posting from England but then see one of my compatriots gets plenty of replies. I have come to the conclusion my story is just not interesting enough- I don't threaten suicide or to thump my H or wallow in misery- sorry does that sound judgemental of others. However I suppose I should take it as a compliment that others think I am coping! Atleast thats how I'll read it.

My next out of town visit is in a fortnight- there are 4 of the original group returning and 3 new members, so it will be interesting meeting new people. We are going to a hotel with a spa and pool so I will be able to relax and enjoy myself.

I hope you found the right words when dealing with your own son.

Have a great w/e
Jante

Hii SS want to relate a 'thought' that just came to me. I was watching a live service from London and had this strong sense of T may be there. I even found myself scanning the faces for his. Often watch Christian Tv, lots are services from London churches but never had that sense before. Time for me to renew my prayers I think.

Other side to it, it seemed so real I found myself in a strange place of being almost afraid of it actually happening. I've lived with this situation for so long I find myself actually questioning whether I want it to change?? Now where has that come from?
Sorry rambling really but I know you understand.
Jante

Hello J,
I can see that things are still very unsetteled.

Other side to it, it seemed so real I found myself in a strange place of being almost afraid of it actually happening. I've lived with this situation for so long I find myself actually questioning whether I want it to change?? Now where has that come from?
That came from the place inside of you that knows that it will take a big change for T to come back and an even greater change for you to be able to live with him. I have been thinking about it right along. Once you said that if God could preform the miracle of bringing him back he could also make it work. ( words to that effect, I didn't quote you exactly)
I have worried about this part quite a bit. He (T) is not ready for it, and were he to say today that he wanted to return to you it would take the greatest effort to make it work.

I suppose many would say this is getting the cart before the horse, and why worry about that since he shows no sign of returning.

I can only agree with you, if God can change his heart so he wants to do what is right, he can make everything else work too.

I haven't had much time the last few days, and won't for a few more, We worked things out with S, he pushes things sometimes but he seems to have a good heart. ( when he's not teashing his sisters)

Sorry rambling really but I know you understand.
Nice to have friends, isn't it. I hope all your other friends take good care of you also.

Hope your Sunday is a nice one.

SS

<small>[ November 02, 2002, 11:36 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Thanks SS. Yes very nice to have friends and I have a couple of very good ones who lend an ear whenever I need it. But I also appreciate the friends I have made here.

I suppose the concern over H possible change of heart and how hard it will be is just a reminder not to take it for granted but to be prepared to pray as hard after he returns as while I am waiting. H hasn't shown any signs of going through with his threat of Dv. Spent yeterday helping move and arrange the furniture etc we brought back from Scotland. He also asked me twice if I was ok after the event. Still a great deal of confusion there I think.

I understand you are busy and can't post too regularly but appreciate what time you can give.

Jante

J,
It feels like you are wondering again.

There is a crossroads coming closer and you will need to make a choice. I hope it will be clear to you what to do.

I have been encouraging you to wait, but I could not defend it with logic. If we were to look at things logically it would seem to say that he would not turn back to his family after being gone so long. I could only point to feelings that I have had and that I believe they come from God. I still feel the same.

I hope if you ever change your mind that you will not feel bad about saying so, I have never wanted to tell you exactly how to do things, I only make suggestions and try to give ideas.

You speak to H, help relieve his stress, and get little in return. You really do deserve companionship and love, and I believe you will find it, in fact, I am very sure of it. I wish I was more help and could tell you exactly what to look for and what to do.

I still believe you need to find a way to communicate your feelings to him more often. I believe he needs to understand the hurt you have felt, and know your hopes and come to understand why you have waited so long. He won't understand these things in even a few communications. You have spoken many times to D about what you expect from him but he often needs to hear it again. T is the same way, he needs the message repeated over and over again.

Please have faith that the loneliness you are feeling is temporary, and know that God understands your heart and will help you. Remember also that this life is a proving ground, a test, and that the pain and heartache we feel here will not last beyond this experience if we measure up. I believe if you will continue on, excising your faith and doing what you know to be right, you will measure up.

I am not usually so solemn, but I find I can't be light hearted this time. Perhaps the subject is to important to make light of.

I recommend you continue to seek Gods will, and do what you feel he wants, that is the only way to happiness.

SS

Dear jante,

Just wanted you to know that I have so much respect for you - you are so strong and loving - I am sad for you that your H does not recognize that with you he could "have it all".

I don't think you should seek Dv yet - I would still leave that up to him, but perhaps moving to minimize your contact with him would help him wake up to what he is losing. Right now he still has your emotional support whenever he wants it, but he does not give you back what you need.

I am going through a rough time with my H, and don't know what the future holds - I hope that if we end up separated, that I would be able to be as loving as you were when you replied to him not to Dv you if it was just to set you free.

Take care,
LIR

Hi SS and LIR and thanks both of you for your comments and support.

SS

I still believe you need to find a way to communicate your feelings to him more often. I believe he needs to understand the hurt you have felt, and know your hopes and come to understand why you have waited so long. He won't understand these things in even a few communications. You have spoken many times to D about what you expect from him but he often needs to hear it again. T is the same way, he needs the message repeated over and over again.

Yes but at what point does repeating the message become pursuing/begging??

I have a fear of pushing him away by repeating the same message too often. I said what I did while away in response to his comments and with no pre planning, but to plan and try and repeat the meassgae makes me feel as if I'm boring him!!

LIR

Nice to hear form you again,

I don't think you should seek Dv yet - I would still leave that up to him, but perhaps moving to minimize your contact with him would help him wake up to what he is losing. Right now he still has your emotional support whenever he wants it, but he does not give you back what you need.

I do try to minimise contact and had been working well to that end before the last three w/e however from this coming w/e for next few at least I will be unavailable forchat while he is with the boys and will also talk to him about having the boys with him more from he New Year. We are spending Christmas Day together.

I am getting tired and feeling that I can't hold out much longer, but keep going back to God for wisdom and strngth.
Jante

Yes but at what point does repeating the message become pursuing/begging??

It's easy for me to give advice when it is you that has to live with the problem. I sense that right now you are really struggleing with this. You seem to be more upset than I have seen you as long as I have been posting.
Is there anything that we can do for you?
SS

Hi folks and especially SS and LIR,

SS I'm sorry if I have worries you and given you the impression I am upset. I am certainly no more upset than at other times when I have begun to wonder what the point is. In fact I am actually not upset just very tired of the long wait and the seeming indifference of T who just doesn't seem to move any closer to me. It is so hard to have him as a best friend but not as a husband and so I begin to wonder what the point of hanging on any more is.
I was low at work today, but that has more to do with pressure of worl and again being very tired. Role on the Christmas holiday and a proper break for me!!
Jante

J,
Often the BS goes from one extreme to the other, and you have those feelings now. Your bank gets so low that you go from working on it to wanting to D and get it over with. LIR kind of has this problem too. She has told us her feelings and that she was close a time or two to leaving, but I suspect that more than once it took all the strength she had to keep from just walking away. I have worried that you would come to this point before T would respond. I used the wrong word when I said you sounded upset. I should have said you seemed nearer the edge than you ever had. You have said before that you felt like moving on and finding happiness but it seemed to me that this time you were much closer to making it real.

Jante said:
Yes but at what point does repeating the message become pursuing/begging??I have a fear of pushing him away by repeating the same message too often. I said what I did while away in response to his comments and with no pre planning, but to plan and try and repeat the meassgae makes me feel as if I'm boring him!!

It is so hard to have him as a best friend but not as a husband and so I begin to wonder what the point of hanging on any more is.

I know it is hard to have R discussions, and I don't suggest you do that. You could just pass on to him what you just told us.

" When you come this week we plan to do this, and that, and will eat about 6:00. I hope that will work for you. I have enjoyed having you come and visit and it is good for the boys but sometimes I wonder if I should consider doing things differently for me. I told you at Levan not to divorce me just to set me free, but I am having a hard time with that right now, and wonder if I said the wrong thing. While I would rather be married to you than anyone else, I want someone that is more than just a friend who comes to visit on weekends. Sometimes I wonder what the point of hanging on any more is. There was a time when I really wished for you to return, now I wonder if I would let you come back if you asked me to. Well, let me know about the weekend. Sincerely, J. "
( made it strong, didn't I, but you can't say it is pursuing.)

I asked LIR what Jesus Christ would recommend she do if he was to come and be a marriage coach for she and her H. It is much easier to understand in her case, than what he would counsel you. In fact, I think we could agree that we don't know what he would tell you to do, that is why I feel he will let you know somehow, and that you won't be left to yourself to find your own way. I realize that you aren't planning on filing for D this week, and that you were just expressing feelings that have come and gone before, but I still wanted to comment. Ask yourself this: "If what I have been doing has not brought about a change, why not try something else?"
Do you feel he has come any closer in the last few months?

As I have said before, I am not trying to tell you want to do, just keep you thinking about things. It feels like H is stuck where he is, and you have been feeling that way also, but it seems that you shrink from loosing the friendship and association you do have. I know I already said this, but I fear that someday you will go from where you are right to D with nothing in between.

Give it to her, LIR, she needs to hear it from someone besides me. ( J, don't take this wrong, I am grinning as I type this. )

BTW, did you ask T about that wardrobe, and if so, what did he say? I know it's a funny arrangement, but one has to look out for ones self.

SS

Hi SS and thanks- will consider possibilty of such a message - though not this week I think.

Have just found this:
Don't Quit

Don't quit when the tide is lowest,
For it's just about to turn;
Don't quit over doubts and questions,
For there's something you can learn.

Don't quit when the night is darkest,
For it's just awhile 'til dawn;
Don't quit when you've run the farthest,
For the race is almost won.

Don't quit when the hill is steepest,
For your goal is almost nigh;
Don't quit, for you're not a failure
Until you fail to try.

- Jill Wolf
Gave me a nudge onwards and upwards!

Jante

I love this poem. I am going to print it and keep it for future use.

I suspect it is helpful for many things in life, not just hanging on to what you are doing in building your marriage. At least it applies to a lot of things that I have faced.

I hope the boys are doing well. I have wondered what effect it had on them to have you and T together for a couple of weekends and I have wondered if they have commented on any of what happened. I don't believe I have mentioned before that my W's parents Dv'd when W was in her late teen years. In fact she moved to the town where I lived because of that breakup. We have had many long talks about the effect it had on the children. There were eight children, so I have observed the effect on all of them over the years. Anyway, perhaps that is one of the reasons I think of your boys, and how they are doing.

I have also wondered about the effect this is having on your self esteem. I have watched MIL and it took her a long time to recover, indeed, I think in some ways she has still not recovered. She has never remarried, but spends her free time looking after her children and helping them. I don't know how I could have gotten a better MIL, but when I tell her, I wonder if she believes me.

One of the reasons we post to each other here is to try and get a boost when we are feeling low. There is not much I can do for many of the thoughts that trouble you, but you have a father that cares about you and that will do that for you as you pray. If you ever doubt your own worth, tell him in your prayer that SS says you are worth a great deal, and ask him if it is true. He will confirm it with a strong feeling of love that will come into your heart, and it will help when you wonder just how much you are worth.
This applies to LIR also, really to all of us.

I also want to say that you were not sent here to fail. You were sent to succeed, in marriage, and in raising a family, and in being happy. I believe if you continue to seek Gods will and do what he wants, you will succeed.

So, yes, onward and up. I hope you get your share of laughter and fun, it sure helps.

SS